Dunmer: Hybrid or bust?

validifyedneb18_ESO · January 2019

This is more a request for opinions than me just stating facts, but it seems to me that Dunmer as per the new racials, will either really start to thrive as hybrids or struggle even more as magica dd's.

My reasoning;

3% max magica just gone, replaced with 600 health which... I mean its not bad, but its also not going to make it a tanking race any time soon so it seems if anything like a 0 sum factor
Immunity to burning is massive, it wont increase DPS but its cool and matches the class, and will really help in PVP
Slight increase to flame resistance. Eh, I dont think we're really supposed to think anything here, the change is so little its really only to bring up the numerical equality they talked about.
Increased damage (Both types). The increase is the same for high elves (Although highelves dont have the physical too, but that feeds into what im saying, hybrid or bust)
The max stats have been increased in line with HElfs, meaning there is no real buff/debuff here. Highelves remain 4% (7% counting Resist flame) worse off on max stat, in exchange for

In addition to this, they continue to have no additional stat recovery. This has traditionally been a key reason why High Elf was always a generally better pick, with Dunmer slightly winning out becase of the 7% increased flame (+3% over HElf) which has now been equalized.

So on paper, ignoring the non-dd enchancing passives, it has been (relatively) nerfed in relation to highelves.

However;

Hybrids can benefit from twice the amount of base stat and stat recovery (regardless of passives).
The new damage final passive is crazy good if you can find a hybrid build that doesn't use Pelinals which would nullify the advantage of having it split for both Wep and Spell.

So basically Darkelves could make amazing hybrids, or will just become a flat out way worse dd pick for magicka builds (When before High Elf was already the top pick, but Dunmer where seen as the more "bursty" option, which is no longer the case). And a lot rests in that balance because currently Hybrids are very niche, hard to build, and dont put out as much DPS as a single stat build as it is.

That said, I do look forward to trying to make a new hybrid on the PTS.

validifyedneb18_ESO · January 2019

enhancing* not enchanting, if anyone was confused.

susmitds · January 2019

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453679/sustain-aside-dunmer-is-the-top-stamina-pve-dps-now#latest

validifyedneb18_ESO · January 2019

susmitds wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453679/sustain-aside-dunmer-is-the-top-stamina-pve-dps-now#latest

thanks for that... I dont quite... understand... how that even works... if true its cool AF but in the OP I was talking about magica dps.

There is also the issue in that post of sustain too though. Top dps means nothing if you burn out past 2 mins of fighting

EDIT: Yeah the posters in that thread seem to have reached a similar conclusion, along with Magicka Dunmers being in a pretty nasty spot with these initially released numbers.

Kidgangster101 · January 2019

The only real hybrid way I see this playing out is a magica DK in pvp gets a buff to it's stam side as a lot of people use shield and sword. No one will really run a end game instance as a hybrid as you lose way to much damage and sustain imo because all your moves will hit way weaker than someone geared for one way.

validifyedneb18_ESO · January 2019

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

The only real hybrid way I see this playing out is a magica DK in pvp gets a buff to it's stam side as a lot of people use shield and sword. No one will really run a end game instance as a hybrid as you lose way to much damage and sustain imo because all your moves will hit way weaker than someone geared for one way.

Yeah that was my concern, It seems for pure PVE DD, Magicka Dunmer is dead, hybrid could flourish but in general hybrid as it is just cant pump the numbers even with the split advantages of the new dunmer passives. Hybrids are still riperino for now, along with Magicka Dunmer (as in, almost everyone's dunmer character, because they where/are currently one of the 3 main magicka races)

Turelus · January 2019

I mean for me I won't make hybrids, but I am glad all my Dunmer Stamina characters now get something from their best racial trait.

Jamdarius · January 2019

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

This is more a request for opinions than me just stating facts, but it seems to me that Dunmer as per the new racials, will either really start to thrive as hybrids or struggle even more as magica dd's.

My reasoning;
3% max magica just gone, replaced with 600 health which... I mean its not bad, but its also not going to make it a tanking race any time soon so it seems if anything like a 0 sum factor

Immunity to burning is massive, it wont increase DPS but its cool and matches the class, and will really help in PVP

Slight increase to flame resistance. Eh, I dont think we're really supposed to think anything here, the change is so little its really only to bring up the numerical equality they talked about.

Increased damage (Both types). The increase is the same for high elves (Although highelves dont have the physical too, but that feeds into what im saying, hybrid or bust)

The max stats have been increased in line with HElfs, meaning there is no real buff/debuff here. Highelves remain 4% (7% counting Resist flame) worse off on max stat, in exchange for

In addition to this, they continue to have no additional stat recovery. This has traditionally been a key reason why High Elf was always a generally better pick, with Dunmer slightly winning out becase of the 7% increased flame (+3% over HElf) which has now been equalized.

So on paper, ignoring the non-dd enchancing passives, it has been (relatively) nerfed in relation to highelves.

However;
Hybrids can benefit from twice the amount of base stat and stat recovery (regardless of passives).

The new damage final passive is crazy good if you can find a hybrid build that doesn't use Pelinals which would nullify the advantage of having it split for both Wep and Spell.

So basically Darkelves could make amazing hybrids, or will just become a flat out way worse dd pick for magicka builds (When before High Elf was already the top pick, but Dunmer where seen as the more "bursty" option, which is no longer the case). And a lot rests in that balance because currently Hybrids are very niche, hard to build, and dont put out as much DPS as a single stat build as it is.

That said, I do look forward to trying to make a new hybrid on the PTS.

Dunmer will not be good hybrid as long as armor passives increase mostly 1 of the 3 main sources. The problem is with the way how for example Light Armor boosts magic only, Medium Stamina/physical and Heavy armor tankiness.

If they would make some sort of change for the sake of hybrids or special skill tree for hybrids it would make sense, now Dunmers will be Altmer >Breton>Dunmer most of the time, RIP my magDK main... may you find peace.

Intextio · January 2019

Dunmer just need some more max magicka and a little bit of extra fire damage.

D0PAMINE · January 2019

They might benefit from Warden maybe. With the netch. This is just open thinking. Im at work and this should be taken with a grain of salt, as Warden has its own issues. Dunmer stamina healer is in my mind right now.

validifyedneb18_ESO · January 2019

Intextio wrote: »

Dunmer just need some more max magicka and a little bit of extra fire damage.

Well I think they wanted to remove the emphasis on elemental damage types, particularly because of how damage-type specific many classes are. A magDK uses fire, a stamDK uses poison, a magWarden uses ice, a Sorcerer uses lightning. You could make an argument that the class design is the one at fault but for now I like this change.

But yeah, I think a little bit more max stat or stat recovery would be great. Even something small like 2% equiv max stat stam and mag boost would be great, although I say that wanting to really have a properly viable hybrid again, looks like stam side dunmer may be just fine (assuming sustain holds out)

Waffennacht · January 2019

After thumbing through the skills again; it occurs to me, I think Khajiit are actually the better hybrid race:

Crit chance to both spell and weapon - far more difficult to get than wpn/spell damage; and imo more important
Sustain buff to both mag and Stam being a hybrid would maximize this buff while dunmer makes using Pelinal a really bad decision.
And the increase to both max mag and max stam; meaning a hybrid kahjiit gets more out of this passive

Just saying it's weird that dunmer was supposed to be more hybrid but Khajiit has like all hybrid passives

Savos_Saren · January 2019

I like the idea of hybrid... but you don't really get to use both weapon and spell damage. If you go with a Pelinal build- one damage type is based off the other... not both.

@SkysOutThizeOut has a good hybrid- but you have to run it in light armor for the spell penetration... which means you miss out on the 15% damage increase from running medium armor. (Therefore, you miss out on a lot of damage that the fire bonuses used to do.) The increase of health is... okay... I guess?

If you try to run a heavy armor DK setup- you now lose out on the 15% damage from medium, the penetration from light, and the extra healing received is *hopefully* making up for the lack of fire damage that used to heal you.

I like the idea of Dunmer being the hybrid race- but they don't get any sustain for tanking, damage dealing, or healing.

Perhaps ZOS will introduce some better hybrid sets to help out with hybrid builds? Khajiit, Argonian, and Dunmer are as close as you can get to being in that category.

LeagueTroll · January 2019

bust, hybrid is just bad

richo262 · January 2019

EP is now in a terrible spot

Nord - Tank (Happy with the changes)
Dumner - Hybrid DPS, but now seems to favors Stam (Disappointing)
Argonian - Utility (Not annoyed at the nerf)

Every other faction has races with clear damage roles, except for maybe the kitteh, which is like the Dunmer but better.

Dunmer as stam is good, it just needs a slight bump on the mag side, or fire damage side. If they did that, I wouldnt even need the race change token at all. I understand all the other racial changes, and I'm not taken back by any of them, except the Dunmer. In fact if they bumped fire damage, I can see stam DPS using fire enchants on weapons breaking free from the boring and always used Stam builds with their poison enchants, and I can see the MagDK not being so terrible now.

I've just finished leveling a mag DK dunmer. Now I gotta change him out to Altmer. Sad.

PS4_ZeColmeia · January 2019

I've been a hybrid forever and used to be khajiit but switched to dunmer because vamp demands it. Based on me being a pelinal hybrid I will stick with this setup, but khajiit crit hybrid is finally good for mages! i think either are great for it.

IMHO tho, you still have to "specialize" in a particular stat pool as a hybrid, at least until the CP cap is around 1200 or so. Then there will be enough CP to have a much smaller difference between a 100% one stat and a hybrid. At that point I think hybrids will be very, very competitive.

Numerikuu · January 2019

The thought of hybrid builds is nice and something I'd love to see, but after Morrowind's sustain nerfs? They're just not viable right now.

Salvas_Aren · January 2019

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

I've been a hybrid forever and used to be khajiit but switched to dunmer because vamp demands it. Based on me being a pelinal hybrid I will stick with this setup, but khajiit crit hybrid is finally good for mages! i think either are great for it.

IMHO tho, you still have to "specialize" in a particular stat pool as a hybrid, at least until the CP cap is around 1200 or so. Then there will be enough CP to have a much smaller difference between a 100% one stat and a hybrid. At that point I think hybrids will be very, very competitive.

LeL

How would the CP cap be 1200?`They anounced that the softcap will not be increased in the nearer future.

Gronk · January 2019

How big a Bust? 42FF or bigger?

Zacuel · January 2019

Being open minded maybe I will enjoy playing my dunmer magdk as a stamdk instead? Maybe?

Somebody reassure me here.

validifyedneb18_ESO · January 2019

Zacuel wrote: »

Being open minded maybe I will enjoy playing my dunmer magdk as a stamdk instead? Maybe?

Somebody reassure me here.

If you want to forgo any race style and use poison rather than fire like Dunmer where born to use / are cool because of

Beavisaur13 · January 2019

Numerikuu wrote: »

The thought of hybrid builds is nice and something I'd love to see, but after Morrowind's sustain nerfs? They're just not viable right now.

I keep seeing ppl like you saying, there not viable, but I think you need to change your scenario of viability.

Would I take a hybrid into VMA or a Vet Trial, No

But they can still do 90% of the game like normal dung, norm trials, questing, non dlc vet dungeons, Pvp. Ppl need to stop expecting hybrids to preform like end game Meta builds and then say there not good. You make a hybrid to have fun and to play the game however you want. Use what ever skills/ weapon type you want, while still being able to do most of the content you want. So in that way there viable.

My builld Dark elf, NB with Penials, Shacklebreaker, Domhaus, Infused weapon Jewelry

validifyedneb18_ESO · January 2019

Beavisaur13 wrote: »

Numerikuu wrote: »

The thought of hybrid builds is nice and something I'd love to see, but after Morrowind's sustain nerfs? They're just not viable right now.

I keep seeing ppl like you saying there not viable, but I think you need to change your scenario of viability.

Would I take a hybrid into VMA or a Vet Trial, No

But they can still do 90% of the game like normal dung, norm trials, questing, non dlc vet dungeons, Pvp. Ppl need to stop expecting hybrids to preform like end game Meta builds and then saying there not good. You make a hybrid to have fun and to play the game however you want. Use what ever skills/ weapon type you want, while still being able to do most of the content you want. So in that way there viable.

My builld Dark elf, NB with Penials, Shacklebreaker, Domhaus, Infused weapon Jewelry

tbh, if you have a monster set and any 2 other full sets, whatever they are you can hit 20k dps with a good rotation, which is fine for any non vet content and most vet dungeons.

But for people who want to be with the big boys (the people, for example, who argue for ages over exactly what race got the best changes to their racial passives), we need at-least 35k damage minimum to be able to do vet trials, which for me is the key aim. Im done with all the easy stuff, im not done with my tour of vet trials (including those trials and dungeons that continue to come out), so ill need a top tier build for it.

JumpmanLane · January 2019

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

The only real hybrid way I see this playing out is a magica DK in pvp gets a buff to it's stam side as a lot of people use shield and sword. No one will really run a end game instance as a hybrid as you lose way to much damage and sustain imo because all your moves will hit way weaker than someone geared for one way.

My playstyle in PvP it’s a BUFF! DW Destro 1 kena 1 Balorgh and either spinners Julianos or bright throats Alteration Mastery. It’s a buff.

I light attack between every whip to get crusher and berserker up
and generate ulti. With Major Sorcery up, I’d rather have spell damage over max magicka (it adds up to more effective spell power anyways). My MagDk will hit harder if that patch goes live. (And not a hybrid at all).

Red_Feather · January 2019

I would love dunmer to be a great choice for hybrid builds.
My suggestion was greatly increase +weapon damage and +magicka racial passives, but remove +spell damage and +stamina passives.
So like +300 weapon damage and +2500 magicka. That is a good combo for hybrids.
Also other races can have hybrid passives like that too. I think each alliance should have a hybrid race.

ccfeeling · January 2019

All around race , I mean perfect race .