Sustain aside, Dunmer is the top stamina PvE DPS now

susmitds

In terms, effective weapon power, Dunmer is the top stamina DPS race.
If sustain comes into play, though redguards and bosmer are in a really great place now.

(Taken from Masel's breakdown)

Can be tested by simulating the same stats using Enchants in UESP build editor.

SaintSubwayy

Jeah stay for 30sec o top then start the ha rota till stam is back up...rinse and repeat ;P

Vahrokh

susmitds wrote: »

In terms, effective weapon power, Dunmer is the top stamina DPS race.
If sustain comes into play, though redguards and bosmer are in a really great place now.

(Taken from Masel's breakdown)

Can be tested by simulating the same stats using Enchants in UESP build editor.

Yeah, too bad for the thousands of poor sods who - like me - rolled magicka Dark Elves.

susmitds

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Jeah stay for 30sec o top then start the ha rota till stam is back up...rinse and repeat ;P

Pretty much what Khajiit has been doing for the last 3 years. :P Still worked quite well imo.

Narvuntien

I mean they have a duel wield skill bonus so it was really dumb they were magicka in the first place though.

Carbonised

Honestly who gives a sh** about that, when Dunmer has been a mag oriented race since the conception of this game, and many of us have made magicka oriented dunmer characters.

Respecing into stamina isn't even an option at all, when considering that ZOS made the incredibly braindead decision to turn all stamdk skills from fire into green vomit, which goes completely against the lore, the aethetics and the overall feel for our class.

Well congrats to stamdks, and yet another spit in the face for magdks.

What_In_Tarnation

susmitds wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Jeah stay for 30sec o top then start the ha rota till stam is back up...rinse and repeat ;P

Pretty much what Khajiit has been doing for the last 3 years. :P Still worked quite well imo.

Gotta agree with this, dummer is basically khajiit with more weapon damage but less weapon crt. Add some heavy attack in rotation will be fine in PvE. PvP wise, probably need to build a bit sustain for sure.

Azyle1

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Jeah stay for 30sec o top then start the ha rota till stam is back up...rinse and repeat ;P

Pretty much what Khajiit has been doing for the last 3 years. :P Still worked quite well imo.

Gotta agree with this, dummer is basically khajiit with more weapon damage but less weapon crt. Add some heavy attack in rotation will be fine in PvE. PvP wise, probably need to build a bit sustain for sure.

So it begs the question, what will be better in pve, Khajiit or Dunmer?

susmitds

Masel wrote: »

1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.
2. On magicka races, sure you can say that altmer is the best race when it comes to the pure dps output while neglecting any sustain component. However, that's neglecting additional factors that come in. Khajiit has spell crit, magicka recovery that effectively translates into roughly the same sustain that altmer gets, they have max magicka AND 8% spell critical, which will benefit more from additional critical damage you have in group content and will be especially effective on templars and nightblades. Factoring in sustain, bretons are incredibly strong in that regard, so much so that they are a valid choice for any class that struggles with sustain and also allows using BLUE food in most instances, plus giving resistance and a flat recovery that always ticks. Also people seem to neglect the additional health that khajiit gets, which is very valuable in many instances. Dunmer is the most versatile race now since it can do both specs and also gets health. If you wanted to min/max 100% dunmer is not the ideal choice for dps (again neglecting the aspects from above), but the difference is ~1k magicka and 60-70 magicka per second. The altmer sustain component also only functions when you actually cast a class ability, whereas breton and khajiit have a passive that always ticks.
3. Stamina races are very very close to each other, especially in actual fights. People seem to think redguard is still the ultimate best, but this is not the case. Bosmer, orc, khajiit, dunmer are all viable. Redguard requires you to deal DIRECT damage now to benefit from the adrenaline rush, which is a significant reduction in effectiveness from what we had before, since it will not proc on DoT-abilities. The weapon cost reduction also requires you to cast abilities to be effective. Bosmer is 100% on par with redguard sustainwise. 258 recovery that ticks all the time is a lot and will net you a higher gain than the passives redguards have in many instances in PvE and PvE. Orc has higher damage compared to these two, but a bit less sustain. Khajiit is still a very viable choice and the sustain is basically unchanged from what they had before. I'm not 100% satisifed on the imperial side because they don't really have anything that benefits their role as a DD in pve, but for tanking they definetely became better.

In order to prove some of this, i made an excel sheet where i implemented these into a standard build for stamina and magicka DDs in PvE. Magicka build was (as far as i remember) Zaan, Siroria and Sorrow/Spell Strategist, while the stamina version uses Relequen+Advancing Yokeda+Velidreth.
Formula is the same as above.

Here's the comparison of effective spell power and weapon power:



Here, altmer comes out as the clear winner, and for stamina, dunmer puts out the highest damage. This does not yet factor in sustain components. In order to do so, I introduced a ranking system that basically just ranks races based on damage and sustain with equal weights. The weights can ofc be adjusted, so if sustain is more important to you, the ranks will change accordingly.



With equal weights, altmer still comes out on top, but not by much. Shifting the weights towards sustain more and more makes breton the best choice.

Shifting the weights to 30% sustain and 70% damage yields the following:



And the other way around:



It all depends on what you need, and the gaps are not as cear and big as many make them seem.

Here's Masel's original post on it. Dunmer still beats Bosmer, Orc and Redguard as well as Khajiitin the technical level if building for 70% dmg and 30% sustain (2 sets damage, 1 set sustain) but it is a really close call at that point.

weedgenius

Good thing I have a dunmer magsorc and a dunmer magdk

TiZzA93

Lol so at q3 kitty will get nefed for being 2nd in both dps just stayin to promote chapter

Carbonised

susmitds wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.
2. On magicka races, sure you can say that altmer is the best race when it comes to the pure dps output while neglecting any sustain component. However, that's neglecting additional factors that come in. Khajiit has spell crit, magicka recovery that effectively translates into roughly the same sustain that altmer gets, they have max magicka AND 8% spell critical, which will benefit more from additional critical damage you have in group content and will be especially effective on templars and nightblades. Factoring in sustain, bretons are incredibly strong in that regard, so much so that they are a valid choice for any class that struggles with sustain and also allows using BLUE food in most instances, plus giving resistance and a flat recovery that always ticks. Also people seem to neglect the additional health that khajiit gets, which is very valuable in many instances. Dunmer is the most versatile race now since it can do both specs and also gets health. If you wanted to min/max 100% dunmer is not the ideal choice for dps (again neglecting the aspects from above), but the difference is ~1k magicka and 60-70 magicka per second. The altmer sustain component also only functions when you actually cast a class ability, whereas breton and khajiit have a passive that always ticks.
3. Stamina races are very very close to each other, especially in actual fights. People seem to think redguard is still the ultimate best, but this is not the case. Bosmer, orc, khajiit, dunmer are all viable. Redguard requires you to deal DIRECT damage now to benefit from the adrenaline rush, which is a significant reduction in effectiveness from what we had before, since it will not proc on DoT-abilities. The weapon cost reduction also requires you to cast abilities to be effective. Bosmer is 100% on par with redguard sustainwise. 258 recovery that ticks all the time is a lot and will net you a higher gain than the passives redguards have in many instances in PvE and PvE. Orc has higher damage compared to these two, but a bit less sustain. Khajiit is still a very viable choice and the sustain is basically unchanged from what they had before. I'm not 100% satisifed on the imperial side because they don't really have anything that benefits their role as a DD in pve, but for tanking they definetely became better.

In order to prove some of this, i made an excel sheet where i implemented these into a standard build for stamina and magicka DDs in PvE. Magicka build was (as far as i remember) Zaan, Siroria and Sorrow/Spell Strategist, while the stamina version uses Relequen+Advancing Yokeda+Velidreth.
Formula is the same as above.

Here's the comparison of effective spell power and weapon power:



Here, altmer comes out as the clear winner, and for stamina, dunmer puts out the highest damage. This does not yet factor in sustain components. In order to do so, I introduced a ranking system that basically just ranks races based on damage and sustain with equal weights. The weights can ofc be adjusted, so if sustain is more important to you, the ranks will change accordingly.



With equal weights, altmer still comes out on top, but not by much. Shifting the weights towards sustain more and more makes breton the best choice.

Shifting the weights to 30% sustain and 70% damage yields the following:



And the other way around:



It all depends on what you need, and the gaps are not as cear and big as many make them seem.

Here's Masel's original post on it. Dunmer still beats Bosmer, Orc and Redguard as well as Khajiitin the technical level if building for 70% dmg and 30% sustain (2 sets damage, 1 set sustain) but it is a really close call at that point.

Could you please pay attention to the Dunmer numbers in the magicka section, which are the 4th best, behind Altmer, Breton and Khajiit - down from a shared 1st place on live server currently? Maybe THAT'S what the Dunmer players are p'ed off about. Don't give a rat's arse about how well they do in stamina, i rolled 5 Dunmer mag chars since Dunmer was an obvious mag race. Obviously I'm going to get p'ed off when they turn my mag race into a stam race overnight.

hakan

Really? Wow didnt know my main would become top tier. Did you guys tested it in PvE? ive always played stam dunmer and like the idea because lore, so im extra happy rn.

Vahrokh

Carbonised wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.
2. On magicka races, sure you can say that altmer is the best race when it comes to the pure dps output while neglecting any sustain component. However, that's neglecting additional factors that come in. Khajiit has spell crit, magicka recovery that effectively translates into roughly the same sustain that altmer gets, they have max magicka AND 8% spell critical, which will benefit more from additional critical damage you have in group content and will be especially effective on templars and nightblades. Factoring in sustain, bretons are incredibly strong in that regard, so much so that they are a valid choice for any class that struggles with sustain and also allows using BLUE food in most instances, plus giving resistance and a flat recovery that always ticks. Also people seem to neglect the additional health that khajiit gets, which is very valuable in many instances. Dunmer is the most versatile race now since it can do both specs and also gets health. If you wanted to min/max 100% dunmer is not the ideal choice for dps (again neglecting the aspects from above), but the difference is ~1k magicka and 60-70 magicka per second. The altmer sustain component also only functions when you actually cast a class ability, whereas breton and khajiit have a passive that always ticks.
3. Stamina races are very very close to each other, especially in actual fights. People seem to think redguard is still the ultimate best, but this is not the case. Bosmer, orc, khajiit, dunmer are all viable. Redguard requires you to deal DIRECT damage now to benefit from the adrenaline rush, which is a significant reduction in effectiveness from what we had before, since it will not proc on DoT-abilities. The weapon cost reduction also requires you to cast abilities to be effective. Bosmer is 100% on par with redguard sustainwise. 258 recovery that ticks all the time is a lot and will net you a higher gain than the passives redguards have in many instances in PvE and PvE. Orc has higher damage compared to these two, but a bit less sustain. Khajiit is still a very viable choice and the sustain is basically unchanged from what they had before. I'm not 100% satisifed on the imperial side because they don't really have anything that benefits their role as a DD in pve, but for tanking they definetely became better.

In order to prove some of this, i made an excel sheet where i implemented these into a standard build for stamina and magicka DDs in PvE. Magicka build was (as far as i remember) Zaan, Siroria and Sorrow/Spell Strategist, while the stamina version uses Relequen+Advancing Yokeda+Velidreth.
Formula is the same as above.

Here's the comparison of effective spell power and weapon power:



Here, altmer comes out as the clear winner, and for stamina, dunmer puts out the highest damage. This does not yet factor in sustain components. In order to do so, I introduced a ranking system that basically just ranks races based on damage and sustain with equal weights. The weights can ofc be adjusted, so if sustain is more important to you, the ranks will change accordingly.



With equal weights, altmer still comes out on top, but not by much. Shifting the weights towards sustain more and more makes breton the best choice.

Shifting the weights to 30% sustain and 70% damage yields the following:



And the other way around:



It all depends on what you need, and the gaps are not as cear and big as many make them seem.

Here's Masel's original post on it. Dunmer still beats Bosmer, Orc and Redguard as well as Khajiitin the technical level if building for 70% dmg and 30% sustain (2 sets damage, 1 set sustain) but it is a really close call at that point.

Could you please pay attention to the Dunmer numbers in the magicka section, which are the 4th best, behind Altmer, Breton and Khajiit - down from a shared 1st place on live server currently? Maybe THAT'S what the Dunmer players are p'ed off about. Don't give a rat's arse about how well they do in stamina, i rolled 5 Dunmer mag chars since Dunmer was an obvious mag race. Obviously I'm going to get p'ed off when they turn my mag race into a stam race overnight.

Same. I have multiple Dunmer magicka characters and most of them are magsorcs. Way to get shafted, since a year now!

What_In_Tarnation

Azyle1 wrote: »

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Jeah stay for 30sec o top then start the ha rota till stam is back up...rinse and repeat ;P

Pretty much what Khajiit has been doing for the last 3 years. :P Still worked quite well imo.

Gotta agree with this, dummer is basically khajiit with more weapon damage but less weapon crt. Add some heavy attack in rotation will be fine in PvE. PvP wise, probably need to build a bit sustain for sure.

So it begs the question, what will be better in pve, Khajiit or Dunmer?

Hard to tell, but I think dummer will be slightly higher than khajiit If only stam dps still wear AY. Since AY solve lots of crit problem for dummer

Trinity_Is_My_Name

Well hang on to your shoe laces because all this is changing when Racial passives get a facelift.

Azyle1

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Jeah stay for 30sec o top then start the ha rota till stam is back up...rinse and repeat ;P

Pretty much what Khajiit has been doing for the last 3 years. :P Still worked quite well imo.

Gotta agree with this, dummer is basically khajiit with more weapon damage but less weapon crt. Add some heavy attack in rotation will be fine in PvE. PvP wise, probably need to build a bit sustain for sure.

So it begs the question, what will be better in pve, Khajiit or Dunmer?

Hard to tell, but I think dummer will be slightly higher than khajiit If only stam dps still wear AY. Since AY solve lots of crit problem for dummer

We will see. Seems like RedGuard, Khajiit, Dunmer and Orc are all going to be pretty good choices this next patch. But.......

Things may change over the PTR.

susmitds

Carbonised wrote: »

Honestly who gives a sh** about that, when Dunmer has been a mag oriented race since the conception of this game, and many of us have made magicka oriented dunmer characters.

Respecing into stamina isn't even an option at all, when considering that ZOS made the incredibly braindead decision to turn all stamdk skills from fire into green vomit, which goes completely against the lore, the aethetics and the overall feel for our class.

Well congrats to stamdks, and yet another spit in the face for magdks.

Well, I can certainly understand your point. However straight buff to dunmer will make them in the OP in stamina department. They also have the 2nd highest total resources after Imperial so theirs that. They are now the best hybrid class as well (hybrid being useful only in PvP where Khajiit crit passive is subpar to straight weapon damage).

Carbonised

susmitds wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Honestly who gives a sh** about that, when Dunmer has been a mag oriented race since the conception of this game, and many of us have made magicka oriented dunmer characters.

Respecing into stamina isn't even an option at all, when considering that ZOS made the incredibly braindead decision to turn all stamdk skills from fire into green vomit, which goes completely against the lore, the aethetics and the overall feel for our class.

Well congrats to stamdks, and yet another spit in the face for magdks.

Well, I can certainly understand your point. However straight buff to dunmer will make them in the OP in stamina department. They also have the 2nd highest total resources after Imperial so theirs that. They are now the best hybrid class as well (hybrid being useful only in PvP where Khajiit crit passive is subpar to straight weapon damage).

No it would not. Make them retain the unique buff to flame damage, which benefits magdks and not stamdks, and problem fixed.

There is no such thing as a hybrid, zos killed off all hybrids more than 3 years ago, from a pve point of view, and arguably also from the majority of the magdks in pvp with a very few exceptions.

mairwen85

I'd rather see the result of this in practice on PTS.

susmitds

Carbonised wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Honestly who gives a sh** about that, when Dunmer has been a mag oriented race since the conception of this game, and many of us have made magicka oriented dunmer characters.

Respecing into stamina isn't even an option at all, when considering that ZOS made the incredibly braindead decision to turn all stamdk skills from fire into green vomit, which goes completely against the lore, the aethetics and the overall feel for our class.

Well congrats to stamdks, and yet another spit in the face for magdks.

Well, I can certainly understand your point. However straight buff to dunmer will make them in the OP in stamina department. They also have the 2nd highest total resources after Imperial so theirs that. They are now the best hybrid class as well (hybrid being useful only in PvP where Khajiit crit passive is subpar to straight weapon damage).

No it would not. Make them retain the unique buff to flame damage, which benefits magdks and not stamdks, and problem fixed.

There is no such thing as a hybrid, zos killed off all hybrids more than 3 years ago, from a pve point of view, and arguably also from the majority of the magdks in pvp with a very few exceptions.

That would make them the best raw damage for both magicka and stamina DPS. At that point, why bother picking any other race, when one race is literally the master race.

GarnetFire17

Sorry man, they are doing away with niches when it comes to race in favor of diversity, i guess a lot people skipped the intro.

validifyedneb18_ESO

Carbonised wrote: »

Honestly who gives a sh** about that, when Dunmer has been a mag oriented race since the conception of this game, and many of us have made magicka oriented dunmer characters.

Respecing into stamina isn't even an option at all, when considering that ZOS made the incredibly braindead decision to turn all stamdk skills from fire into green vomit, which goes completely against the lore, the aethetics and the overall feel for our class.

Well congrats to stamdks, and yet another spit in the face for magdks.

This. So much.

In general the idea that a class choice determines the damage type you specialize in. But DK stamina being poison is so infuriating. Even more so now Dunmer looks to either be a Hybrid or pure stam race.

Facefister

Vahrokh wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

In terms, effective weapon power, Dunmer is the top stamina DPS race.
If sustain comes into play, though redguards and bosmer are in a really great place now.

(Taken from Masel's breakdown)

Can be tested by simulating the same stats using Enchants in UESP build editor.

Yeah, too bad for the thousands of poor sods who - like me - rolled magicka Dark Elves.

Altmer - 12539
Dunmer - 12366

~1.4%

Your daily score runs are ruined.

JobooAGS

Facefister wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

In terms, effective weapon power, Dunmer is the top stamina DPS race.
If sustain comes into play, though redguards and bosmer are in a really great place now.

(Taken from Masel's breakdown)

Can be tested by simulating the same stats using Enchants in UESP build editor.

Yeah, too bad for the thousands of poor sods who - like me - rolled magicka Dark Elves.

Altmer - 12539
Dunmer - 12366

~1.4%

Your daily score runs are ruined.

Ironically according to min maxers, they are XD

Facefister

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

If I remember correctly the formula is

Recovery = (Base + Gear + Mundus + Drink) * (Skills + CP)

Currently we have with current racial (10%) + mooncalf (15%) + 7 medium (28%)

Base 514 + Dring 319 + Mundus (7 gold divines) 363 = 1196
1196 * 1.53 = 1830 (rounded).


With the new skills are

Base 514 + Dring 319 + Mundus (7 gold) 363 + Racial 75 = 1271
1271 * 1.43 = 1818

So all this complaining for losing 12 STA regen under the worst case conditions?

Especially when we get Health and especially Magicka in par to Altmers?

Many in PVP wear at least 1-2 impregnable traits, so they actually get more stamina than losing now!!!!!

Arciris

Just when I was planning to change my Dunmer stamplar to Khajiit - because Meow - they make Dunmer BIS for stam.
Tough decisions....

Facefister

Arciris wrote: »

Just when I was planning to change my Dunmer stamplar to Khajiit - because Meow - they make Dunmer BIS for stam.
Tough decisions....

Dunmer - 14313
Khajiit - 14178

~0.9%

Choose whatever suits you best

I mean, the data is there. Just take a calculator and calculate it by yourself, the races will be much more balanced than they're now.

Finviuswe

And this is an embarrassment

Thanks for ZOS for ruining my dreams, no really

Azyle1

Facefister wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

Just when I was planning to change my Dunmer stamplar to Khajiit - because Meow - they make Dunmer BIS for stam.
Tough decisions....

Dunmer - 14313
Khajiit - 14178

~0.9%

Choose whatever suits you best

I mean, the data is there. Just take a calculator and calculate it by yourself, the races will be much more balanced than they're now.

Also Khajiit would have better sustain, no?

Facefister

Here are the differences

https://imgur.com/a/HZal2Vt

Picture upload doesn't work for me.