I won't be changing mines race because it simply isn't necessary, they'll still make very good healers and tanks, they just won't be OP anymore. So, if you plan to change yours race which race now do you think is SO much better for those roles?

As much as I love Argonians, I think the nerfs were justified; Argonians were simply way too powerful in terms of their utility, making them extremely strong in terms of PvE tanking, healing, and PvP.

What I am not happy about, however, is the lack of buffs for Argonians, in particular concerning their damage output. Argonians have never been anywhere close to being good at either stamina or magicka DPS, and the new racial passive balance pass does not change that at all. They still have decent stamina and magicka sustain, but ultimately they're pretty crap compared to the buffs that Redguards and Bretons have received, not to mention that their only real damage buff was in terms of a tiny bit of magicka.

Masel posted a spreadsheet that pits the magicka races and stamina races against each other, and so far Argonians just don't fare well at all. They're the least powerful among the magicka races, and they don't have anything for their stamina other than 160 effective stamina recovery from their potion passive.

I proposed some changes in my post on the racial changes thread here among others. My idea is to add 1000 max stamina and also 129 weapon and spell damage upon receiving healing to their passives; this brings their damage up to par with the medium effectiveness races, but also doesn't buff their utility. Since they a were decent hybrid race before the changes, I'd like them to continue being good hybrid race on par with current Dunmer.

Royaji wrote: »

The sweet-sweet salty bag (or were you a boot?) tears. Argonians were BiS tanks, healers and PvP brawlers. Expecting anything but a nerf to them was ridiculous.

1000 flat magicka is much better than 3% max mag increase. 1000 health is pretty close to 9% after all the multipliers. Potion passive got out lightly, I was expecting a complete replacement. Healing received allowed Argonians to reset fight very effectively paired with burst nature of their sustain passive. Healing done could've stayed at 5% though. Poison vs. Disease thing is funny. Disease resistance one is a much better choice since it prevents Diseased status effect that applies Major Defile to you. Compare that to a miniscule DoT from Poisoned.

Lets keep this civil, and please try to remember that there is content other than pvp. Resisting the diseased effect is useless outside of pvp.

The flat magicka boost of 1000 instead of 3% is a buff for magicka dps but a slight nerf to tanks, depending on your setup.

If like most properly geared tanks you’re running prismatic glyphs, you will now have to dump more points into stamina to move it above your magicka pool so you get the right resource returned (stam) when you use shards/orbs.

This means less points you can put into health, coupled with reduced health going from 9% to flat 1000.

Healing done/received is such a useless start when you consider the amount of overheating and one-shot mechanics in the game. The way the game is designed you’re generally full or dead and a minuscule bonus to healing in between gets more and more worthless the more that mechanics are either pass or fail. Nerfing it took it from mildly useful to worthless, basically.

Overall it’s s big hit to what was a popular support race.

But I guess we have to cater to the pvp only crowd.

Krayl wrote: »

The flat magicka boost of 1000 instead of 3% is a buff for magicka dps but a slight nerf to tanks, depending on your setup.

If like most properly geared tanks you’re running prismatic glyphs, you will now have to dump more points into stamina to move it above your magicka pool so you get the right resource returned (stam) when you use shards/orbs.

This means less points you can put into health, coupled with reduced health going from 9% to flat 1000.

Healing done/received is such a useless start when you consider the amount of overheating and one-shot mechanics in the game. The way the game is designed you’re generally full or dead and a minuscule bonus to healing in between gets more and more worthless the more that mechanics are either pass or fail. Nerfing it took it from mildly useful to worthless, basically.

Overall it’s s big hit to what was a popular support race.

But I guess we have to cater to the pvp only crowd.

I simulated the loss of 9% health bonus by removing the relevant passive in the build editor and then adding the flat 1000 hp. Overall, It’s a net loss of 2K hit points for my DK tank. A HP loss also affects damage shield strength. Double whammy.

I'm so glad my PvP character isn't Argonian. She's Altmer, and they survived the racial changes.
But yeah ... once again, something gets nerfed for PvE because of PvP.

HatchetHaro wrote: »

As much as I love Argonians, I think the nerfs were justified; Argonians were simply way too powerful in terms of their utility, making them extremely strong in terms of PvE tanking, healing, and PvP.

What I am not happy about, however, is the lack of buffs for Argonians, in particular concerning their damage output. Argonians have never been anywhere close to being good at either stamina or magicka DPS, and the new racial passive balance pass does not change that at all. They still have decent stamina and magicka sustain, but ultimately they're pretty crap compared to the buffs that Redguards and Bretons have received, not to mention that their only real damage buff was in terms of a tiny bit of magicka.

Masel posted a spreadsheet that pits the magicka races and stamina races against each other, and so far Argonians just don't fare well at all. They're the least powerful among the magicka races, and they don't have anything for their stamina other than 160 effective stamina recovery from their potion passive.

I proposed some changes in my post on the racial changes thread here among others. My idea is to add 1000 max stamina and also 129 weapon and spell damage upon receiving healing to their passives; this brings their damage up to par with the medium effectiveness races, but also doesn't buff their utility. Since they a were decent hybrid race before the changes, I'd like them to continue being good hybrid race on par with current Dunmer.

Even on live, they are no where near to being in top 5 DPS races in either mag or stam. But they are OP in PvP. The changes are pretty balanced. Not every race needs to be a top DD choice. They are still the top tank choice.

I was expecting some nerfs to their tanking level, but they really hammered my people.

Every passive was nerfed, I'm surprised they didn't lose swim speed.

I figured the nerf to the potion passive would be a change (though I'll still argue that isn't wasn't as OP as what some paint it, it was strong) - but they should have gotten a little love in the damage side.

They lost restore amount from potions (2nd time mind you), the lost healing received bonus, and they lost max health bonus.

I simply think they should have given them something like what they gave to khajiit, like the 750 to magicka and stam instead of just the 1k magicka, at least it would have given them just a smidge of help DPS wise.

Now Nord will be top tanking choice with Argonian and Imperial still being solid runners up. BUT an important note: this matters very little for end game. All that matters for support is can you do your job? It might make it easier for you personally, but the group won't see a difference. Where racials actually matter for DPS, try the same build on a meta race and then change to argonian and try it - big difference. So Argonian will be bottom tier for Stamina and middle lower for magicka DPS builds.

So I was really hoping we'd see a nerf to how tanky they are and a buff to their damage doing ability. Nothing strong, but enough to make up for the loss of the only thing they had going for them.

With these changes, it's nothing but loss if you play Argonian.

edit: I did really like another players suggestion that they also get a small damage buff when drinking a pot, like 100 wpn/spell damage for 10 seconds or something. This would do nothing to help tanking and actually give them some use as a DPS build.

Quick to Mend: 5% Healing Done and Received → Life Mender: Increases your Healing Done by 4%.

????????????????????

What was the reasoning behind this? flexibility so Argonian healers can also be healers?

Argonians are more resilient? not with these changes. Give them 5% damage reduction, they have SCALES ffs! Not like those softskins.

susmitds wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

As much as I love Argonians, I think the nerfs were justified; Argonians were simply way too powerful in terms of their utility, making them extremely strong in terms of PvE tanking, healing, and PvP.

What I am not happy about, however, is the lack of buffs for Argonians, in particular concerning their damage output. Argonians have never been anywhere close to being good at either stamina or magicka DPS, and the new racial passive balance pass does not change that at all. They still have decent stamina and magicka sustain, but ultimately they're pretty crap compared to the buffs that Redguards and Bretons have received, not to mention that their only real damage buff was in terms of a tiny bit of magicka.

Masel posted a spreadsheet that pits the magicka races and stamina races against each other, and so far Argonians just don't fare well at all. They're the least powerful among the magicka races, and they don't have anything for their stamina other than 160 effective stamina recovery from their potion passive.

I proposed some changes in my post on the racial changes thread here among others. My idea is to add 1000 max stamina and also 129 weapon and spell damage upon receiving healing to their passives; this brings their damage up to par with the medium effectiveness races, but also doesn't buff their utility. Since they a were decent hybrid race before the changes, I'd like them to continue being good hybrid race on par with current Dunmer.

Even on live, they are no where near to being in top 5 DPS races in either mag or stam. But they are OP in PvP. The changes are pretty balanced. Not every race needs to be a top DD choice. They are still the top tank choice.

The nerfs to their utility make them meh for support roles at this point, with Breton's superior sustain taking the top spot for the healer role, and Nord's ulti-gen taking the top spot for the tank role. For PvP their passives aren't going to be anywhere near as powerful as before, and ultimately it leaves them in a very bad spot.

Not every race needs to be a top DD choice, I agree, but no race should ever be the bottom DD choice, and at this time, Argonians are at the bottom for both stamina and magicka DDs.

Argo still has the best tristat sustain by an absolute country mile.