Racial Equality For Argonians Please

Tyrobag

Argonian

• Increases experience gain in Resto Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 50% Swimming Speed → No changes
• Resourceful: Gain 3% Max Magicka and restore 4620 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion → Increases your Max Magicka by 1000. Restore 3600 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion.
• Argonian Resistance: 9% Max Health and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance → Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Diseased status effect.
• Quick to Mend: 5% Healing Done and Received → Life Mender: Increases your Healing Done by 4%.

"Nice changes" - says everyone who isn't an Argonian. Meanwhile people who play Argoanians say "Why did they have to nerf the **** out of Argonians?" Now, instead of being equal to the other races, they are significantly lower in effective power. The healing passive got nerfed to Oblivion, now 4% instead of 5% to others and 10% on yourself. The potion passive lost 1000 points of restore in each stat.

I'm guessing the reason for this is their "Set bonus efficiency" system, which is thoroughly rigged against the Argonian's style of passive. Since the passive restores all 3 stats its "power" appears much higher than it will actually effectively be for any particular playstyle. Rather than taking this into account, they let if weigh down all of the Argonian passives, resulting in Argonians shifting to become possibly the weakest class.

Now Argonians are extremely weak, rather than previously when they were a fairly middling race. True, they were generally considered to be the best tanks and healers, but had they been left alone and the changes to other races implemented as planned, many other races would have caught up in those roles.

As a side note, the change to the disease/poison resist passive backpedals on lore, since Argoinans are known to be very resistant to poison. This isn't a massive issue, but it should be considered all the same.

Long story short, it is my belief that Argonians should be more or less left alone (make the % to raw stat changes, and the disease change if they must), while the other race changes (except dunmer, but that's for another post) seem reasonably satisfactory.

Royaji

The sweet-sweet salty bag (or were you a boot?) tears. Argonians were BiS tanks, healers and PvP brawlers. Expecting anything but a nerf to them was ridiculous.

1000 flat magicka is much better than 3% max mag increase. 1000 health is pretty close to 9% after all the multipliers. Potion passive got out lightly, I was expecting a complete replacement. Healing received allowed Argonians to reset fight very effectively paired with burst nature of their sustain passive. Healing done could've stayed at 5% though. Poison vs. Disease thing is funny. Disease resistance one is a much better choice since it prevents Diseased status effect that applies Major Defile to you. Compare that to a miniscule DoT from Poisoned.

PeterUnlustig

Its just another nerf too 1vx. Zenimax endgame goal is to buff zerging. Lizzy was always a niche race for people that want to offer stats for survivability e.g. in 1vx szenarios. It may be mildly ovetuned when it comes to ressource sustain and selfhealing but now that the last passive of all classes are more or less 5 piece set bonus equal its just in line. Just to remind you sanctuary is 12% more healing, so the 5+5% are somehow in line with it. If you want it nerfed make it half minor vitality + mending and give it a 4%/4% treatment. But just 4% healing is just a lame 2 piece set bonus worth.
ZENIMAX STOP THE RADICAL NERFS AND INSTEAD USE INCREMENTAL!

Cage_Lizardman

It seems like a really hard nerf, I guess Argonian OP is back to being a joke:

At least we got to keep the swim speed.

Wildberryjack

I won't be changing mines race because it simply isn't necessary, they'll still make very good healers and tanks, they just won't be OP anymore. So, if you plan to change yours race which race now do you think is SO much better for those roles?

sha-ext

Cage_Lizardman wrote: »

It seems like a really hard nerf, I guess Argonian OP is back to being a joke:

At least we got to keep the swim speed.

I hope your are not serious... Argonians will still be quite strong in PvP.

HatchetHaro

As much as I love Argonians, I think the nerfs were justified; Argonians were simply way too powerful in terms of their utility, making them extremely strong in terms of PvE tanking, healing, and PvP.

What I am not happy about, however, is the lack of buffs for Argonians, in particular concerning their damage output. Argonians have never been anywhere close to being good at either stamina or magicka DPS, and the new racial passive balance pass does not change that at all. They still have decent stamina and magicka sustain, but ultimately they're pretty crap compared to the buffs that Redguards and Bretons have received, not to mention that their only real damage buff was in terms of a tiny bit of magicka.

Masel posted a spreadsheet that pits the magicka races and stamina races against each other, and so far Argonians just don't fare well at all. They're the least powerful among the magicka races, and they don't have anything for their stamina other than 160 effective stamina recovery from their potion passive.

I proposed some changes in my post on the racial changes thread here among others. My idea is to add 1000 max stamina and also 129 weapon and spell damage upon receiving healing to their passives; this brings their damage up to par with the medium effectiveness races, but also doesn't buff their utility. Since they a were decent hybrid race before the changes, I'd like them to continue being good hybrid race on par with current Dunmer.

Bloodystab

Argonians indeed was BiS Tank & Healer. But only if You are DK Tank or Templar Healer. With showed changes other Races will easy take this place leaving Argonians 'Role-less'

Tyrobag

Royaji wrote: »

The sweet-sweet salty bag (or were you a boot?) tears. Argonians were BiS tanks, healers and PvP brawlers. Expecting anything but a nerf to them was ridiculous.

1000 flat magicka is much better than 3% max mag increase. 1000 health is pretty close to 9% after all the multipliers. Potion passive got out lightly, I was expecting a complete replacement. Healing received allowed Argonians to reset fight very effectively paired with burst nature of their sustain passive. Healing done could've stayed at 5% though. Poison vs. Disease thing is funny. Disease resistance one is a much better choice since it prevents Diseased status effect that applies Major Defile to you. Compare that to a miniscule DoT from Poisoned.

Lets keep this civil, and please try to remember that there is content other than pvp. Resisting the diseased effect is useless outside of pvp.

Silver_Strider

I don't mind nerfs, I mind the fact that instead of actually diversifying our Racials to be more overall useful, we got shoehorned into being Healbots only. That's NOT diversity ZOS. You made Khajiit and Dunmer Hybrid races and you even gave Altmer a form of Stamina regen but you couldn't do the same for Argonians?

Make Resourceful 1000 Magic OR Stamina depending on which is higher with the potion passive following suit and changed from a tri-stat effect into a slightly higher Bi-Stat effect for Health+Resource.

Seriously, you keep shoehorning Argonians as healers only and I'm so sick of it.

Krayl

The flat magicka boost of 1000 instead of 3% is a buff for magicka dps but a slight nerf to tanks, depending on your setup.

If like most properly geared tanks you’re running prismatic glyphs, you will now have to dump more points into stamina to move it above your magicka pool so you get the right resource returned (stam) when you use shards/orbs.

This means less points you can put into health, coupled with reduced health going from 9% to flat 1000.

Healing done/received is such a useless start when you consider the amount of overheating and one-shot mechanics in the game. The way the game is designed you’re generally full or dead and a minuscule bonus to healing in between gets more and more worthless the more that mechanics are either pass or fail. Nerfing it took it from mildly useful to worthless, basically.

Overall it’s s big hit to what was a popular support race.

But I guess we have to cater to the pvp only crowd.

Kuramas9tails

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

Its just another nerf too 1vx. Zenimax endgame goal is to buff zerging.

You can 1vX without being an Argonian.......

munster1404

Krayl wrote: »

The flat magicka boost of 1000 instead of 3% is a buff for magicka dps but a slight nerf to tanks, depending on your setup.

If like most properly geared tanks you’re running prismatic glyphs, you will now have to dump more points into stamina to move it above your magicka pool so you get the right resource returned (stam) when you use shards/orbs.

This means less points you can put into health, coupled with reduced health going from 9% to flat 1000.

Healing done/received is such a useless start when you consider the amount of overheating and one-shot mechanics in the game. The way the game is designed you’re generally full or dead and a minuscule bonus to healing in between gets more and more worthless the more that mechanics are either pass or fail. Nerfing it took it from mildly useful to worthless, basically.

Overall it’s s big hit to what was a popular support race.

But I guess we have to cater to the pvp only crowd.

I simulated the loss of 9% health bonus by removing the relevant passive in the build editor and then adding the flat 1000 hp. Overall, It’s a net loss of 2K hit points for my DK tank. A HP loss also affects damage shield strength. Double whammy.

Royaji

munster1404 wrote: »

Krayl wrote: »

The flat magicka boost of 1000 instead of 3% is a buff for magicka dps but a slight nerf to tanks, depending on your setup.

If like most properly geared tanks you’re running prismatic glyphs, you will now have to dump more points into stamina to move it above your magicka pool so you get the right resource returned (stam) when you use shards/orbs.

This means less points you can put into health, coupled with reduced health going from 9% to flat 1000.

Healing done/received is such a useless start when you consider the amount of overheating and one-shot mechanics in the game. The way the game is designed you’re generally full or dead and a minuscule bonus to healing in between gets more and more worthless the more that mechanics are either pass or fail. Nerfing it took it from mildly useful to worthless, basically.

Overall it’s s big hit to what was a popular support race.

But I guess we have to cater to the pvp only crowd.

I simulated the loss of 9% health bonus by removing the relevant passive in the build editor and then adding the flat 1000 hp. Overall, It’s a net loss of 2K hit points for my DK tank. A HP loss also affects damage shield strength. Double whammy.

Congrats, you've done a completely pointless test.

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Please note that these flat values will now scale with other % modifiers, so there will be less of a delta between builds.

Flat values are added before counting % multipliers and are then affected by them. You can't just remove 9% from your current heath, add 1000 and say that this is how it will look. This is not how math behind max stats works.

PeterUnlustig

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

Its just another nerf too 1vx. Zenimax endgame goal is to buff zerging.

You can 1vX without being an Argonian.......

Sure you can but in non-cp there are alot of builds that are depending on healing being their main if not only defensiv mechanism so you were glad to offer some ressorces and get survivabilty.

I agree with everyone saying argonians are op as how they are right now. But they are mostly Op in Cp. In no-Cp they are just good or better then some races depending on Playstyle.

RaptorRodeoGod

Argonian PvE DDs should get something to compensate for less regen.

Donny_Vito

This is like Deja Vu from all the Shield Nerfs that were going to happen and the potential 1-second cast time.

People cried so hard and created so many threads with their tears that ZoS caved in and made other nerfs instead. Argonians have been OP for far too long. Adapt and survive, and stop whining.

Cage_Lizardman

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

Argonian PvE DDs should get something to compensate for less regen.

That would be nice. If my Argonian stamplar ever feels OP in pve, it's because I've been playing the game for years, not because of my questionable class/race choices.

They really should value the tank/heal bonuses lower than damage boosts and sustain. No one cares about the "healing done" bonus, including healers.

SydneyGrey

I'm so glad my PvP character isn't Argonian. She's Altmer, and they survived the racial changes.
But yeah ... once again, something gets nerfed for PvE because of PvP.

Krayl

Donny_Vito wrote: »

This is like Deja Vu from all the Shield Nerfs that were going to happen and the potential 1-second cast time.

People cried so hard and created so many threads with their tears that ZoS caved in and made other nerfs instead. Argonians have been OP for far too long. Adapt and survive, and stop whining.

Calling a nerf a nerf isn't "whining". It is what it is.

All I'm hoping for is ZOS meeting us half way and providing more than one free race change.

susmitds

HatchetHaro wrote: »

As much as I love Argonians, I think the nerfs were justified; Argonians were simply way too powerful in terms of their utility, making them extremely strong in terms of PvE tanking, healing, and PvP.

What I am not happy about, however, is the lack of buffs for Argonians, in particular concerning their damage output. Argonians have never been anywhere close to being good at either stamina or magicka DPS, and the new racial passive balance pass does not change that at all. They still have decent stamina and magicka sustain, but ultimately they're pretty crap compared to the buffs that Redguards and Bretons have received, not to mention that their only real damage buff was in terms of a tiny bit of magicka.

Masel posted a spreadsheet that pits the magicka races and stamina races against each other, and so far Argonians just don't fare well at all. They're the least powerful among the magicka races, and they don't have anything for their stamina other than 160 effective stamina recovery from their potion passive.

I proposed some changes in my post on the racial changes thread here among others. My idea is to add 1000 max stamina and also 129 weapon and spell damage upon receiving healing to their passives; this brings their damage up to par with the medium effectiveness races, but also doesn't buff their utility. Since they a were decent hybrid race before the changes, I'd like them to continue being good hybrid race on par with current Dunmer.

Even on live, they are no where near to being in top 5 DPS races in either mag or stam. But they are OP in PvP. The changes are pretty balanced. Not every race needs to be a top DD choice. They are still the top tank choice.

Tommy_The_Gun

susmitds wrote: »

Even on live, they are no where near to being in top 5 DPS races in either mag or stam. But they are OP in PvP. The changes are pretty balanced. Not every race needs to be a top DD choice. They are still the top tank choice.

I would disagree with the last part (the bis for tanking). After new changes it will probably be redguard that will be bis for a tank (and for stam DPS too ! :O ) simply because of this:

Adrenaline Rush: When you deal Direct Damage, you restore 950 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.

1K stamina back every 5 seconds... just throw a caltrops and you can perma-block.

So if argonians will get 3600 stamina every 45 seconds... redguards will get 9 ticks so 9K stamina. Sure argonains will still get 3600 magicka too, but blocking with Frost Staff is kinda useless.

So basically redguards will get 9K stamina back for free, no potions required.

WeerW3ir

i agree. these changes are ***. the potion changes are hardly swallowable, but that argonians losed the immunity to poison in the favor of retardbosmers. not fair. there is not Disease in dungeons or in content. new contents comes with Poison all over. 2310 poison resist. you can wipe your ass out with it in new arena. why not just changed the potions. it is fine. but everything else too? for what. bosmers dont deserve love. they can kill you for stepping on a bloody flower. argonians are already had enough hate. look at all those stupid boot jokes. hate the bosmers

Silver_Strider

Donny_Vito wrote: »

This is like Deja Vu from all the Shield Nerfs that were going to happen and the potential 1-second cast time.

People cried so hard and created so many threads with their tears that ZoS caved in and made other nerfs instead. Argonians have been OP for far too long. Adapt and survive, and stop whining.

So have Altmer and Redguard but not only did they get arguably buffed, their direct competition has been nerfed, leaving them the undisputed kings of their fields of expertise.

It's BS any way you want to twist it.

xaraan

I was expecting some nerfs to their tanking level, but they really hammered my people.

Every passive was nerfed, I'm surprised they didn't lose swim speed.

I figured the nerf to the potion passive would be a change (though I'll still argue that isn't wasn't as OP as what some paint it, it was strong) - but they should have gotten a little love in the damage side.

They lost restore amount from potions (2nd time mind you), the lost healing received bonus, and they lost max health bonus.

I simply think they should have given them something like what they gave to khajiit, like the 750 to magicka and stam instead of just the 1k magicka, at least it would have given them just a smidge of help DPS wise.

Now Nord will be top tanking choice with Argonian and Imperial still being solid runners up. BUT an important note: this matters very little for end game. All that matters for support is can you do your job? It might make it easier for you personally, but the group won't see a difference. Where racials actually matter for DPS, try the same build on a meta race and then change to argonian and try it - big difference. So Argonian will be bottom tier for Stamina and middle lower for magicka DPS builds.

So I was really hoping we'd see a nerf to how tanky they are and a buff to their damage doing ability. Nothing strong, but enough to make up for the loss of the only thing they had going for them.

With these changes, it's nothing but loss if you play Argonian.

edit: I did really like another players suggestion that they also get a small damage buff when drinking a pot, like 100 wpn/spell damage for 10 seconds or something. This would do nothing to help tanking and actually give them some use as a DPS build.

DeadlyRecluse

Personally, I think the potion nerf is fair and make sense, and the changes to the second passives are in line with what's being done across the board...

But the changes to the 3rd passive are really dramatic. They removed one of the 2 effects, and nerfed the remaining one by 20%....at least it's still a % based buff, but it seems like just removing healing received or reducing the potency of the passive would have been enough.

stevenyaub16_ESO

Quick to Mend: 5% Healing Done and Received → Life Mender: Increases your Healing Done by 4%.

????????????????????

What was the reasoning behind this? flexibility so Argonian healers can also be healers?

Argonians are more resilient? not with these changes. Give them 5% damage reduction, they have SCALES ffs! Not like those softskins.

ccfeeling

Huge nerfed , same as above , I don't really mind change , just provide race change token .

HatchetHaro

susmitds wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

As much as I love Argonians, I think the nerfs were justified; Argonians were simply way too powerful in terms of their utility, making them extremely strong in terms of PvE tanking, healing, and PvP.

What I am not happy about, however, is the lack of buffs for Argonians, in particular concerning their damage output. Argonians have never been anywhere close to being good at either stamina or magicka DPS, and the new racial passive balance pass does not change that at all. They still have decent stamina and magicka sustain, but ultimately they're pretty crap compared to the buffs that Redguards and Bretons have received, not to mention that their only real damage buff was in terms of a tiny bit of magicka.

Masel posted a spreadsheet that pits the magicka races and stamina races against each other, and so far Argonians just don't fare well at all. They're the least powerful among the magicka races, and they don't have anything for their stamina other than 160 effective stamina recovery from their potion passive.

I proposed some changes in my post on the racial changes thread here among others. My idea is to add 1000 max stamina and also 129 weapon and spell damage upon receiving healing to their passives; this brings their damage up to par with the medium effectiveness races, but also doesn't buff their utility. Since they a were decent hybrid race before the changes, I'd like them to continue being good hybrid race on par with current Dunmer.

Even on live, they are no where near to being in top 5 DPS races in either mag or stam. But they are OP in PvP. The changes are pretty balanced. Not every race needs to be a top DD choice. They are still the top tank choice.

The nerfs to their utility make them meh for support roles at this point, with Breton's superior sustain taking the top spot for the healer role, and Nord's ulti-gen taking the top spot for the tank role. For PvP their passives aren't going to be anywhere near as powerful as before, and ultimately it leaves them in a very bad spot.

Not every race needs to be a top DD choice, I agree, but no race should ever be the bottom DD choice, and at this time, Argonians are at the bottom for both stamina and magicka DDs.

Juzz

Tyrobag wrote: »

Argonian

• Increases experience gain in Resto Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 50% Swimming Speed → No changes
• Resourceful: Gain 3% Max Magicka and restore 4620 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion → Increases your Max Magicka by 1000. Restore 3600 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion.
• Argonian Resistance: 9% Max Health and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance → Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Diseased status effect.
• Quick to Mend: 5% Healing Done and Received → Life Mender: Increases your Healing Done by 4%.

"Nice changes" - says everyone who isn't an Argonian. Meanwhile people who play Argoanians say "Why did they have to nerf the **** out of Argonians?" Now, instead of being equal to the other races, they are significantly lower in effective power. The healing passive got nerfed to Oblivion, now 4% instead of 5% to others and 10% on yourself. The potion passive lost 1000 points of restore in each stat.

I'm guessing the reason for this is their "Set bonus efficiency" system, which is thoroughly rigged against the Argonian's style of passive. Since the passive restores all 3 stats its "power" appears much higher than it will actually effectively be for any particular playstyle. Rather than taking this into account, they let if weigh down all of the Argonian passives, resulting in Argonians shifting to become possibly the weakest class.

Now Argonians are extremely weak, rather than previously when they were a fairly middling race. True, they were generally considered to be the best tanks and healers, but had they been left alone and the changes to other races implemented as planned, many other races would have caught up in those roles.

As a side note, the change to the disease/poison resist passive backpedals on lore, since Argoinans are known to be very resistant to poison. This isn't a massive issue, but it should be considered all the same.

Long story short, it is my belief that Argonians should be more or less left alone (make the % to raw stat changes, and the disease change if they must), while the other race changes (except dunmer, but that's for another post) seem reasonably satisfactory.

I guess ye should ask Samuel Colt for equality or someone like him 😁

usmcjdking

Argo still has the best tristat sustain by an absolute country mile.