I think it would make more sense to just address the skills that cause DW to be too appealing.

*Looks with disgust at Steel Tornado* ( •_•)

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Since when was using dual wield considered a “meta problem”?

I think the OP means that there isn't an option that can beat out duel wield because of this and that is a problem because it hinders build diversity.

2H is supposed to be better for cleave damages. But you have steel tornado...
Let's put 2 enchant slots on 2H weapons So we don't have to change the enchant values.

I still see plenty of really good players that run 2h over dw...

Maybe...

I always thought the main advantage to dual wield was the additional critical from daggers and the execute passive.

If there was a 2H weapon that gave a critical bonus I think that would equalize it a bit more.

The enchants are only worth a little bit of DPS.

Just give 2H a spin attack.. problem solved..

IonicKai wrote: »

I think the OP means that there isn't an option that can beat out duel wield because of this and that is a problem because it hinders build diversity.

Except, as usual with these boards, the "diversity" is to make everything perform the same. That is not diversity, that's cosmetics.

DW is only en vogue because people complained about the lack of diversity when 2H heavy attack builds were the meta. This is what happens when people constantly complain about meta and variety. They get a new meta and more variety, then demand that everything go back to the way it was.

El_Borracho wrote: »

IonicKai wrote: »

I think the OP means that there isn't an option that can beat out duel wield because of this and that is a problem because it hinders build diversity.

Except, as usual with these boards, the "diversity" is to make everything perform the same. That is not diversity, that's cosmetics.

DW is only en vogue because people complained about the lack of diversity when 2H heavy attack builds were the meta. This is what happens when people constantly complain about meta and variety. They get a new meta and more variety, then demand that everything go back to the way it was.

Yeah seriously. People want bow/bow builds to output more the same dps as dw/bow when you can use a bow at range. That's diverse to me. I can't tell you how many fights I have to spam light attack -> poison injection while I wait to be able to get in range to fight a boss. That's the benefit of a ranged weapon. Stop looking at single target dps on a target dummy.

People want 2h to do the same dps as dw when 2h provides much more utility in it's skill line, it was designed for pvp. DW was designed for dps. 2h just needs buffing to be more on par, some reworks on skills/passives would be great. The targetting on 2h feels awful and although it provides so much utility for pvp, people have stopped using it to instead become a buff bar.

I know I only back bar a 2h for forward momentum and stampede as a stam sorc, but I have no CC and I'd much rather use 2h front bar but it became annoying for me to try and make uppercut and reverse slash work when DW is just so much more reliable for targetting.

Why not just double the enchants on 2h weapons and cut the upgrade cost of DW by half?

Really this is a problem with the community and not the game design.

Because there are people who would criticize or even disallow trial participating from people opting to use the slightly less effective 2H over DW because it's not the meta, even though "average" DPS these days is the high water mark used for a lot of the current trials years ago by people who were actually willing to learn, practice, and follow the mechanics instead of just burning through everything.

2Hs biggest problem, when it comes to single target, is that it's inherently weak in single target which makes little sense in that 4 of it's 7 skills are dedicated to single target and cannot be doubly applied (unlike say twin slashes) to multiple targets within reasonable means.

I think the first thing to do would be to buff Wrecking Blow and Reverse Slash. Wrecking Blow outright needs an additional effect, the two that consistently bring up are:

1. Reduce physical armor by 1000 for 5 seconds, stacks 3 times.
2. Increases damage of 2H skills by 10%, stacks 3 times.

Option one would almost indefinitely result in 2H finding it's way into a lot of raids. While it's not as reliable as Alkosh and Lover mundus, it brings a method of removing either from a raid by virtue of 2H providing some capability of armor fracture to enemy NPCs.

Option two is a bit strange. It creates a pretty fun dilemma for 2H wrecking blow in PVE. At max stacks, wrecking blow will hit outright harder than most DOTS will by a fair margin - but only at max stacks. For instance, a change like that, my stam DK wouldn't use poison injection until the enemy is well into execute or range is required, and I wouldn't use caltrops unless more than 1 target presents itself or range is required. Whilst this simplifies a difficult rotation tremendously and makes it far more accessible, it also makes combat more dynamic for 2H (upon which it's already on of the most dynamic) I.E. it gets more fun. In some cases I might even drop a skill for shuffle/Blur so I can match the overall survivability as DW on 2H.

Reverse Slash is also in need of a general buff. Some easy propositions:

1. Plateau scaling instead of linear scaling. Have it reach the damage cap sooner (say 10%).
2. Executioner's damage bonus should scale multiplicatively.

Reverse Slice is great and, as a morph, likely doesn't need any changes. 2H gets a little wonky rotation wise because straight up Slice spam and straight up Wrecking Blow spam aren't always very obvious once mob hits that 30% marker. For instance starting at 35% going to 25% I will always swap cancel Slice/Executioner. Between 25 and 15% I change my rotation from WB-LA x3 to WB-LA-RS x2. After 15% spammable rotation becomes RS-LA x3 until dead. This is only applicable to single target and gets VERY muddy when you introduce adds of any number and the Reverse Slice morph. I couldn't tell you with any certainty at what point slicing a low HP add is better than empowered light attacks. The plateau scaling serves no other purpose other to lessen the muddied waters and be a bit more definitive about when to start slicing.

Introducing any of those would be a good step in the right direction to see where 2H falls out. The 2H passives (with the exception of Heavy Weapons) are generally very good with heavy weapons being trash compared to DW for a host of reasons (no crit option, 1 DW axe has about the same uptime as one 2h axe). Other than HW, the passives are generally pretty good in either PVP or PVE.

The whole unrepentant nerfing of light attack/heavy attack to 2H also has to be straight up reverted. Both have longer cast times, backswings and do the same tooltip damage as the much faster DW (which benefits from higher weapon damage, Ruffian and Controlled Fury).

IMO after looking at both Slash/WB and then the whole unfucking of LA/HA for 2H, we might be in a position where 2H becomes not only fun, but mildy "meta-safe". It's never great, but it's never bad.

Marshall1289 wrote: »

killmove wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

Maybe...

I always thought the main advantage to dual wield was the additional critical from daggers and the execute passive.

If there was a 2H weapon that gave a critical bonus I think that would equalize it a bit more.

The enchants are only worth a little bit of DPS.

no DW are OP because of the 2X enchants with infused trait.

2H has bigger problems than 2x enchants. If destruction staves are fine with 1x enchant why is 2h behind?

Every skill is weak AF because I imagine ZOS balanced the skills based around pvp and the fact that they provide more utility that isn't always necessary in a pve setting.

2h bleed: Cleave and provides a shield or minor heroism = lesser potential tooltip dmg vs DW's single target DW options.

2h spammable: Has a cast time (feels awful in a pve setting that's fast paced and based around light attack rotations). However this skill provides a knockback + stun, pvp.. The pve version for empowered is just pathetic with the empowered changes and is a minimal buff at best that doesn't synergize with the follow up passive anymore.

2h execute: aoe morph has horrible cleave range and provides a percentage of the initial damage while the single target execute morph only provides an additional +50% execute dmg on 300%. Steel tornado is 9m range which is gigantic and doesn't require targetting, only con is the cost being really expensive, but you get higher dmg ANYWAY because of DW passives, it doesn't matter that steel tornado is 300%.

Momentum: Major brutality + HoT is widely redundant with healers and weapon power pots, CC immunity from forward momentum is for pvp and a burst heal is for pvp.

Crit charge: Don't need a gap closer in pve, it's about single target rotations increasing dps potential. Stampede provides slow for pvp and crit rush increases dmg based on distance, also pvp.

Passives:
Forceful: Kind of cool, prioritizing cleave over single target dps though. DW gets 20% passive execute dmg past 25% hp.

Follow up: WEAK in a light attack meta where ZOS made it their mission to distinguish that heavy attacks are weak (DPS wise) but provide sustain, aka you use them in a rotation every once and awhile when needed, while light attacks deal high dmg and allow you to have a smoother rotation. Sets like relequen, the strongest single target pve dps set in the game requires light attacks to build stacks faster. DW instead gets extra passive dmg for 2nd weapon.

Battle rush: helps sustain instead of dps. Not every fight has trash to benefit off of, nor do pve builds highly invest in to stam regen when it's about pushing dps in the first place. DW get's extra passive dmg againsted CC'ed enemies.

Heavy weapons vs Twin Blade and Blunt:
Since there is only 1 weapon, going for an axe makes your bleed proc chance 16% which can sometimes become redundant, the bleed just resets the duration instead of applying more than 1 bleed. That's why people use 1 axe + 1 dagger. 1 axe provides enough bleed proc chance at 8%.

The crit chance isn't even possible to get with 2h, people have been asking for a 2h crit option forever.

Swords passive 5% dmg done can be weak due to where it falls in calculating dmg, crit chance is stronger.

Mauls can start to become redundant with enough group synergy. It's not a flat amount, effected by penetration debuffs making it weaker the more reliable your group is with debuffs. Can be strong in some cases, not where dps starts to matter.

Summons it up pretty well IMO

Enchants are fine, the big problem lies wihtin the 2h skilline, but ZOS prob will never rly fix that i guess

There's like 4 or 5 different other ways to make 2H perfectly equal to DW, none of which require touching DW' enchants.

In fact the best one would be to simply change and update Follow Up and Heavy Weapons.

Follow Up - Increase Heavy Attack Damage, increase damage of next attack used after a heavy attack.

Heavy Weapons - Critical Strikes have a 10/20% Chance to apply a bleed for X over Y seconds.

Swords - 2.5/5% damage and attack speed increase.

Maces - same, but now add 2.5/5% chance to stun and offset an enemy.

Axes - increase crit damage by whatever daggers increase crit chance by.

Like that's it, that's all that has to be done.

Skills can be left alone, DW gets to keep its double different enchanct stuff and mix and match weapon types. Everybody wins