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Lets talk Necromancers and the Justice system.

Thevampirenight
Thevampirenight
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From what we know we know Necromancer will have more interaction with the world then the other classes. Possibly tied into the justice system. So certain abilties could maybe get you a bounty or kill on sight. BUt given the lore, I really am hoping this is by region and not universal. Going by the lore, say in morrowind, bounty for any use on a Dunmer. Khajiit homelands they are more indifferant and won't care as much. Redguard homelands, death on sight and bounty. Altmer Homelands, have to get special permission and have to hide it from Pijjic order. So what are your thoughts on how they might be doing it?



This is a copy and paste from the usep wiki on necromancy. They could use this as a guide to where its legal and where its not. Which I do hope will be used for the legality.


Black Marsh
Corpses decay rapidly in Black Marsh, making it very difficult for necromancers to operate. This problem is compounded by disease, militant tribal Argonians, and the many other difficulties presented by life in Black Marsh. A few Sload necromancers have purportedly operated in Black Marsh with success, though even they stayed near the coast.[20]

Cyrodiil
Despite the bans on necromancy in Morrowind and within the Mages Guild, it technically remained legal in Cyrodiil. In fact, there have been many times in the history of the Imperial Province where necromancy was extensively practiced, and even publicly tolerated. The only known period that necromancy was supposedly abolished across the Empire was during the reign of Reman II in the late First Era.[37]

Ayleids, the long-lost elves of Cyrodiil, are thought to have possessed extraordinary necromantic knowledge.[38] Their utilization of undead armies is well known, though legends speak of pacts they made with the Daedric Princes rather than their necromancy skills directly.[39] Some of their city-states openly practiced necromancy for untold generations in the Merethic Era. The city of Abagarlas, which became a center for worship of Molag Bal, was particularly infamous for the hordes of undead they sent against their enemies.[40]

The Empire has been known to hire at least a few necromancers, who are given the corpses of criminals and traitors to use legally in the pursuit of their craft.[20] During the Alliance War circa 2E 582, the Mages Guild was in disgrace in Cyrodiil and banished from the Imperial City. The Order of the Black Worm seemed ascendant.[41] Mannimarco was running the Empire from behind the scenes,[42] and he kept close ties with the Witchmen of High Rock.[33][nb 2]

Elsweyr
Elsweyr is said to be relatively accommodating to necromancy. The Khajiit are said to show little if any outrage over uncovered graves, and corpses can apparently be purchased in the port of Senchal. Though corpses don't hold up well in the forests, the deserts of Elsweyr preserve corpses for centuries, allowing skilled necromancers to make use of them relatively easily. The way the bodies are buried in the deserts, under only a small cairn of stones, is also ideal for necromancers on the prowl for resources.[20]

Hammerfell & Orsinium
Though the vast majority of Redguards abhor necromancy, their deep devotion to their departed ancestors has also led them to abhor any sort of interaction with the undead, which has left them particularly vulnerable to necromancers.[43][44][45] It seems their revulsion for necromancy has contributed to their aversion to the use of magic in general.[46]

The Ash'abah are a tribe of Redguards who have made it their duty to purify mausoleums and destroy the undead wherever they may be found. Due to their contact with the dead, they have been treated as a necessary evil by an ungrateful mainstream Redguard society. They are exiled to live as nomads in the wastes of Hammerfell, forever hunting their foes.[33] In the First Era, as part of a covenant with Tu'whacca, three Ansei warriors sacrificed their souls to create the Ansei Wards - magical relics that prevented even the most powerful necromancers from raising their dead.[47]

Orc corpses are highly sought after by necromancers for their durable skin and strong bones. A group of necromancers actually tried to establish a trade in Orcish corpses with Orsinium near the end of the Third Era, though it's unknown what kind of reception they received.[20]

High Rock

Cath Bedraud cemetery in High Rock (ESO)
Necromancers have typically had to operate underground in High Rock, as the citizenry generally find it despicable. Nevertheless, travellers might find themselves at the mercy of a necromancer if they're unwary. The so-called Gravesingers, the most powerful of the Witchmen of High Rock, are said to have an extraordinary talent for controlling the dead.[33] During the Alliance War circa 2E 582, one of these Gravesingers, known as Angof, defiled Cath Bedraud, the great cemetery of Breton nobility,[48] and sought to take over all of Glenumbra. The Lion Guard of the Daggerfall Covenant, which was staunchly opposed to necromancy, eventually succeeded in driving back and defeating Angof. A group of necromancers trafficking in bodies on the island of Betnikh were also cast down around this time.[34]

Nevertheless, necromancy would plague High Rock for centuries to come. In 3E 253, the people of Dwynnen found themselves under the heel of a lich and his hordes of undead, though he was famously defeated by Othrok, the future Baron of the land. In 3E 267, Baron Othrok led a coalition of High Rock nations to defeat the Camoran Usurper, whose undead armies had been laying waste to western Tamriel for over a decade.[49]

Long-standing tradition mandates the cremation of most Breton dead, especially in northern High Rock. People in the south, however, often follow the Imperial custom of having a burial tomb, which means there are cemeteries, like Cath Bedraud, which can be exploited by necromancers. High Rock is prone to war, and many practitioners find their resources on the battlefields.[20] The sewers of Wayrest are also said to cater to the black market necromancy trade.[50]

Breton folklore does not attribute every spirit wandering their land to an act of necromancy. "Hauntings" are thought to occur when a person died and their spirit simply did not want to leave. They are considered common in some locales, such as the moors of Glenumbra.[51]

Morrowind

The Great Ghost Fence (Morrowind)
Because of their traditional practices of ancestor worship, the Dunmer vehemently denounce necromancy as pure evil, and it was outlawed in their ancient homeland of Morrowind.[20] However, the human races of Tamriel often associate their ancestor worship and spirit magic with necromancy, which is at least partly responsible for the dark reputation of Dunmer throughout the continent. The Dunmer view this belief as an ignorant human misconception, for necromancy outside the acceptable clan rituals is considered abhorrent in Morrowind.[52][nb 5]

This distinction the Dunmer made was essentially meaningless to the human races, as the Dunmer considered them and some other beast races to be little more than animals. While the Dunmer considered the necromantic manipulation of another Dunmer abhorrent, they did not prohibit the practice of necromancy upon human remains, or on the remains of any animal, bird, or insect. The Telvanni, in particular, became renowned for their mastery of necromancy, though it is said even they will not defile the corpse of a fellow Dunmer.[52]

Under the Third Empire, Imperial officials recognized the practices of Dunmeri ancestor veneration and spirit magic as a religion, and protected their freedom to pursue such practices so long as they did not threaten the security of the Empire. Privately, most Imperial officials and traders purportedly believed the Dunmeri practices were necromantic, or at least barbaric. Over the course of the Third Era, Dunmeri views on necromancy evolved. By the end of the era, the practice of necromancy upon any of the "accepted" races was generally viewed as an abomination.[52] Circa 3E 427, Morrowind was the only province in which necromancy was outlawed. However, necromancy remained viable in the province for a time due to the Dunmeri practice of slavery, which had long allowed necromancers in Morrowind to obtain as many fresh bodies as they could afford.[20]

Skyrim

A Dragon Priest (Skyrim)
In Skyrim, necromancers often find it relatively easy to operate. This is because the inhospitable terrain provides many isolated places to work, and the cold helps preserve bodies (that is, if they can be found in the snow).[20] While the general populace in modern times seems as opposed to necromancy as in any other province, this was not always the case among the Nords, and the land has had a long and complicated history with necromancy.[nb 1][nb 6]

In ancient Skyrim, the mighty Dragon Priests of the Dragon Cult buried their followers with them, conscripting them through necromantic rituals to serve them in death. Every night, a different shift of draugr rise to prostrate themselves before their master, transferring their life force in order to preserve him, and then return to slumber and recoup their own undead energy.[53] These "restless" draugr are considered somewhat different from other draugr which have been raised by a necromancer (the term "draugr" can be used to refer generally to any Nord undead).[48] This practice of binding servants to their master in death was apparently abandoned by the Nords following the defeat of the Dragon Cult in the Merethic Era, which was eventually eradicated in 1E 140.[54][55][33] The ancient Nords were also known to encased tombs with an enchanted form of ice known as Stalhrim to protect corpses against necromancy, however this practice also fell out of favor.[56][57] Despite this, Nords apparently continued to inter their dead in much the same way. The many well-preserved bodies in barrows all over Nordic lands are essentially treasure troves for many enterprising necromancers, who can command even the restless draugr by imbuing them with loyal spirits.


The spirit of Potema (Skyrim)
In modern times, necromancy is practiced in secret by many outlaws. Coming across a group of necromancers in some secluded cave or barrow is one of the many hazards any adventurer must eventually face in Skyrim. And at the prestigious College of Winterhold, it is even considered a legitimate arcane study, provided it is done discreetly and in accordance with the College's rules.[54] As noted elsewhere, the Reachmen have a long history with necromancy unto themselves (though it has purportedly been forbidden in the past by some tribes).[58]

During the War of the Red Diamond, Potema, the Wolf Queen of Solitude, turned her kingdom into a "land of death". She and her necromancers raised armies of undead from their fallen enemies and launched assault after assault on the Empire until she was finally vanquished in 3E 137.[7] Circa 4E 201, a cadre of necromancers attempted to summon and bind her spirit, but their efforts were foiled by the Dragonborn. The extraordinarily powerful spirit of the Wolf Queen was banished from the land before she could visit any further harm on the mortal world.[54]

Summerset Isles & Thras
The Summerset Isles was the original homeland of not only Mannimarco, but the Direnni clan of Altmer who are remembered as among the first to unlock the secrets of summoning souls. Nevertheless, the land of the Altmer is arguably even less hospitable to necromancers than Valenwood. A few elite Altmer are allowed some study of necromancy, but their research seems to be centered around the extension of mortal lifespans, rather than the more conventional uses of necromancy.[20] Regardless, these sanctioned necromancers are understood to be exceptions to a very strict rule. Any investigation into soul manipulation, including soul trapping, was considered akin to necromancy and thus forbidden.[4] Unsanctioned necromancy in the Isles is subject to the worst possible punishments.[20][59]

The Altmeri animosity for necromancy was perhaps intensified by their long struggles against the Sload of Thras, who long used their mastery of the Dark Arts to inflict horrors upon the Isles. Virtually every story or rumor about them relates to necromancy in some way. When the Redguards came to Tamriel in 1E 808, they brought with them a tradition of burying their criminals on islands off their shore. The Sload took advantage of these graveyards off the coast, turning them into laboratories for their necromancy. The Redguards pushed back against the invaders, but reports of Sload living near settled lands from Stros M'Kai to Abibon-Gora surfaced well into the Third Era.[60] Sload merchants were known to buy slaves in Tear, and there were even rumors of Sload airships which carried corpses from Senchal around this time. Due to their interest in Tamrielic corpses, it's speculated that the Sload, similar to the Dunmer, refrain from practicing necromancy on other members of their race.[20][nb 7]

Valenwood
The Bosmer of Valenwood are said to possess an intolerance for necromancy which "goes beyond all reason". Further, though they do not typically practice Arkay's rituals to protect the dead against necromancers, their practice of ritual cannibalism reduces the availability of corpses, making Valenwood a particularly difficult place for necromancers to operate.[20] Their animosity for necromancy may be exaggerated, as many individuals show little concern over the reanimation of the dead.[61]

Long ago, when many Ayleids lived in Valenwood, they established the city of Hectahame, which was built on a site of immense power, the Heart of Valenwood. A necromancer whose name has been lost to history twisted the life-giving power of the Heart to raise a horde of undead so powerful that the city had to be sealed off in order to contain it.[62] In 3E 249, the Camoran Usurper was able to collect a great army of daedra and undead in Valenwood, and took over the province in just two years.




So I do hope they are tieing it into a more local justice system for them and not everywhere as that would go against the lore. It will be interesting to see how they do it. I would hope they will bring in a more local justice system based on faction. So I would like to see an overhaul of it at some point. Crimes I would like to see are picking flowers in Valenwood, taking fruits from trees. They could do this by tying the stealing mechanic to such items. Aka Green Pact Laws. I know they are limited because of the mmo nature of the game and might have made it universal for that reason. But I am hoping they will be able to change it.
Edited by Thevampirenight on January 16, 2019 1:55AM
PC NA
Please add Fangs to Vampires.
  • Alpheu5
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    That is a lot of text.
    Dalek-Rok - Argonian Sorcerer || Dalek-Shād - Argonian Nightblade || Dalek-Shul - Argonian Templar || Dalek-Xal - Argonian Dragonknight || Mounts-the-Snout - Argonian Warden || Dalek-Xul - Argonian Necromancer || Two-Spires - Argonian Arcanist || Dalek-Nesh - Argonian Sorcerer || Dalek-Kör - Argonian Dragonknight
    Don't incorporate bugs into your builds, and you won't have [an] issue.
  • Samadhi
    Samadhi
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    going to summon as many zombies as possible, and just hang out by the bank NPC
    your guards won't do anything
    "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
    Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
  • Thevampirenight
    Thevampirenight
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    Samadhi wrote: »
    going to summon as many zombies as possible, and just hang out by the bank NPC
    your guards won't do anything

    I am guessing the illegality might be tied to innocent npcs. Use on innocent npc corpses might give you a bounty. So I'm thinking it will be along those lines personally. Along with additional dialog from npcs. Maybe even disgust along other things they are able to program in. But I do hope they make some of it regional. Like Dunmers being flagged by npc guards in morrowind as something that isn't allowed to be used on hostile or innocent.
    Edited by Thevampirenight on January 16, 2019 2:08AM
    PC NA
    Please add Fangs to Vampires.
  • VerboseQuips
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    Zone-specific justice rules and bounties would be something great to add to the game.

    I also hope the Daedric pets will recieve a similar treatment.
    My characters:
    Main and crafter: A Breton magicka templar named Erwann Sorril
    Alt 1: A Bosmer sorcerer named Tuuneleg
    Alt 2: An Imperial dragonknight named Gaius Tullius Hastifer
    Alt 3: An Argonian vampire/nightblade named Observe-le-Xanmeer
    Alt 4: A Nord werewolf/dragonknight named Sigurd Hurlevent
    Alt 5: A Breton sorcerer named Gilian Sorril (he's Erwann's younger brother)
    Alt 6: A Khajiit nightblade named Jolan-dar
    Alt 7: A Nord warden named Sigurmar Hurlevent (he's Sigurd's younger brother)
    Alt 8: An Altmer templar named Oioriel
    Alt 9: An Argonian stamina Warden named Danse-avec-les-Rainettes
    Alt 10: A Redguard templar named Neemokh af-Corelanya
    Alt 11: A Nord stamina sorcerer named Olga Écoute-Vent
    Alt 12: A Breton magicka Warden named Ian Sorril
    Alt 13: A Dunmer magicka necromancer named Ilmoran Dren
    Alt 14: An Orc stamina necromancer named Norgol gro-Borziel
    Alt 15: A Nord magicka necromancer named Thorgen Givresang
    Alt 16: An Imperial magicka dragonknight named Publius Valeirus Hastifer (Just call him "Valerio" - he's Gaius younger troublemaker of a brother)
    Main in NA (For collaborative events): A Breton magicka nightblade named Titouan Sorril (long-lost brother of Erwann and Gilian)
  • Thevampirenight
    Thevampirenight
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    Zone-specific justice rules and bounties would be something great to add to the game.

    I also hope the Daedric pets will recieve a similar treatment.

    They could make it illegal to have them within crafting and banking areas. I can see that being a thing they could do but they would have to program it for every city. I doubt they will ever do it. They are still limited by the mmo confines, and they will have to work it to make sure it does not effect sever performance. What they could do is make it illegal to have any combat summons within 100 feet of any banker. Which is something they could do. So like a special bounty will be programmed with npcs within a bank that will cause guards to attack along with a bounty for any combat pets summoned within those areas including bears. This might stop the practice of people going in with their pets. To block the doorways and other players and help out with the problem. As I'm sure this is one the biggest issue players have with pets.
    Edited by Thevampirenight on January 16, 2019 2:23AM
    PC NA
    Please add Fangs to Vampires.
  • NoMoreChillies
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    would love to see the guards just shank the pet when it comes close
    Insulting people on the internet is cowardly.
  • soniku4ikblis
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    Zone-specific justice rules and bounties would be something great to add to the game.

    I also hope the Daedric pets will recieve a similar treatment.

    Yes to the Daedric pets.

    I'm pretty sure that Rich Lambert is serious about his intent to stick to the original lore. .I wouldn't necessarily depend on something posted on wiki lol.

    But, as far as execution, it remains to be seen.
    __._-*._._._.-*'"{Sonic Euphoric Bliss}"'*-._._._.*-_.__
  • MrGarlic
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    OP, you have certainly given this much thought. Kudos to you.
    'Sharp Arrows'Mr.Garlic
    Hidden by darkness, a shadow in the night,A sped arrow dissecting the gloom,Finding it's target, such delight.
  • RogueShark
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    TBH my biggest issue is that...
    We have sorcerers. Who summon daedra. When the main story in the base game is about daedra invading and we are fighting Molag Bal. But we're gonna have necromancers who are affected by the justice system... while we sorcs can prance around town with our big flappy daedra without anyone batting an eye.
    The inconsistency is very meh.
    PC NA
    Will heal DPS for memes.
  • qbit
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    Looks like a lot of uncertainty about the justice system. I think they should just leave it as is regardless of lore. This looks like it's going to be a bugfest. Right now disabling attacks on friebdly NPCs will prevent you casting an ability if it will hit and NPC. Now that has to be changed to include some visual mechanic of seeing the ability. And what about dueling in town? And when you have to fight hostile NPC next to friendly NPCs?

    I anticipate a bug fest across all classes considering the shared code. Given the state if the gsme, it seems an insurmountable task. Would be easiest to just leave it as is without significant changes to justice system etc to accommodate the new class.
  • Thevampirenight
    Thevampirenight
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    qbit wrote: »
    Looks like a lot of uncertainty about the justice system. I think they should just leave it as is regardless of lore. This looks like it's going to be a bugfest. Right now disabling attacks on friebdly NPCs will prevent you casting an ability if it will hit and NPC. Now that has to be changed to include some visual mechanic of seeing the ability. And what about dueling in town? And when you have to fight hostile NPC next to friendly NPCs?

    I anticipate a bug fest across all classes considering the shared code. Given the state if the game, it seems an insurmountable task. Would be easiest to just leave it as is without significant changes to justice system etc to accommodate the new class.

    I'm thinking the use of justice npcs for necro powerup will be a crime, Raising corpses of npc justice npcs to fight for you will also possibly be a crime. Kinda like vampire feeding counts as an assault this might be assault on a corpse. I do not think general use besides that will be a crime so long as its not used against the justice npcs within the city. As a lot of dead npc corpses could be used to powerup buff oneself. Because of the coding I think it will be more like this. As its a mmo they won't do a full on any use of necro abilties equals bounty and kos. I think this is the reason why they did not add vampires or werewolves to the justice system but necromancy is a dark art in elder scrolls and it possibly might be hated more then even them. So I think they will do a mixed route so it does not conflict with players ability to play their class in areas in the cities where innocent npcs might see them against hostile foes. While also making it illegal to practice on normal day citizens and defile a corpse of a justice npc out in public.
    Edited by Thevampirenight on January 16, 2019 4:37AM
    PC NA
    Please add Fangs to Vampires.
  • Korah_Eaglecry
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    RogueShark wrote: »
    TBH my biggest issue is that...
    We have sorcerers. Who summon daedra. When the main story in the base game is about daedra invading and we are fighting Molag Bal. But we're gonna have necromancers who are affected by the justice system... while we sorcs can prance around town with our big flappy daedra without anyone batting an eye.
    The inconsistency is very meh.

    Nothing is stopping them from fixing that oversight and theres nothing stopping us from voicing ourselves and asking for them to fix it.
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