The root of the problem - A lack of limits

DeanTheCat

Hello,

Dean the Cat here. Been reading a lot of "Nerf this" and "Nerf that" styled threads over the past few weeks (Seriously people, do you guys have nothing better to do then to call nerfs on everything?). I would therefore like to discuss about the general mechanics and concepts that make whatever that is described in the "Nerf" styled threads possible.

There is no TL;DR version of this thread. This will be a long read. Also, keep all discussion about bugs and exploits out of this thread. This thread is made on the assumption that everything is working as intended, and no bugs/exploits are used.

Look over the past few weeks. You'll find that the forums are proliferated with threads like "Skill XYZ is too strong, nerf please!" or "Skill ABC can be spammed too many times, nerf nao!" and even "If you nerf this skill, make sure you nerf that one too! We must all be equal under the nerfhammer!". Do you notice a common trend among all these?

<<< Sounds familiar?

Everything complained about in the threads are only possible because of a lack of limits on character power, and power creep that has set in with the advent of VR16 gear and the Champion System

For people who would like to understand what power creep is, here is a link to a video explaining it.

https://youtu.be/Bxszx60ZwGw

In ESO's case, let's take a look at the recent (2015) changes that have contributed to the sheer amount of power creep that we have today.

1) VR16 Gear. These gear at legendary quality are miles ahead of previous tiers of gear. A VR12 Legendary Sword gives 1102 Damage. A VR14 Legendary Sword gives 1132 Damage. A VR16 Legendary Sword gives 1332 Weapon Damage. A VR14 Armor Glyph gives approximately 650 Stam/Magicka. A VR16 Armor Glyph gives approximately 850 Stam/Magicka. VR14 Spell/Weapon Damage Jewlery Enchants give 133 Spell/Weapon Damage. VR16 versions give 174 Spell/Weapon Damage. Do you notice a trend here?

VR16 gear has completely bucked the previously set standards in terms of character power progression per level. In the past, upgrading from Legendary VR10>>VR12>>VR14 only brought marginal benefits in terms of stat improvement. However, there is a massive gap between VR14 and VR16 gear. If the trend of marginal benefits had continued, our VR16 gear of today would be equal to approximately VR20 in terms of item strength.

To balance the sheer power of VR16 gear in it's current form, a 50% damage nerf had to be applied to Cyrodiil. What this has done is render everyone except the armed-to-the-teeth VR16 characters with fully kitted out gear irrelevant in the grand scheme, and has created literal walking gods amongst the population. A few days ago, in Haderus, I managed to perform a solo keep defense against a full zerg of 30 odd DC players. There were no VR16s amongst them, and I had fully kitted VR16 gear. They literally had no chance to take me down, with their attacks barely doing 1-2k damage to my health, whereas my attacks were hitting for 8-13k damage to them, often two-shotting them. The keep only fell when two VR16 DC players showed up, and those two players proved to be way more of a threat then the entire DC zerg combined. Is this really what we want?

2) Champion System. Let's face it. The champion system threw whatever semblance of balance we had in the past all out of whack. We are getting % of our attributes with every single point spent, unlocking powerful passives with certain amounts of points invested and on top of it all, getting massive increases to focused aspects of our characters with investment into respective trees in the champion system. All these, while already notable by themselves, add together to form an incredibly potent combination. The stat difference between a 300 CP player and a 0CP player is incredibly significant. There is almost literally no chance a low CP character will ever kill a high CP character, assuming equal skill and neither makes a mistake. The low CP character must significantly outplay the high CP player to even have a chance at obtaining victory.

The CP system also has it's effect in PvE, where encounters are starting to be balanced around increasingly high amounts of CP (WGT and ICP anyone?), rendering anyone who has not attained critical values of Champion Points simply unwanted in groups trying to farm/get achievements. Add that to the fact that for most players, the desireable armor sets are locked behind the massive grindwall that is WGT and ICP. This prevents players from fully gearing, thus exacerbating the problem that is VR16 geared players vs everyone else.

3) Softcap Removal. Softcap removal removed the last vestiges of limits of character power. This is what makes things like 5k+ Weapon Damage or 50k Magicka builds possible. Previously, while softcaps were in place, there was an upper limit to how far character power could go. You could still try to push the envelope in terms of what is possible, but it would have been nowhere near as effective as what it is today. A lot of stuff that is possible today would never have been possible.

Remember these?

1. Perma-Dodge
2. Perma-Block
3. Shield-Spamming
4. Instagib combos
5. Perma-Bolt
6. Perma-Cloak
7. (To a lesser extent) Breath of Life spam

None of these would have even been possible if the previous limits on character power were still in place. All those nerfs that had happened (Bolt, Shields, Block, Dodge, Damage) would have never been needed to be implemented. We have gone drunk on the sheer amount of power afforded to us by the removal of limits, and have created our own monsters. This has resulted in us creating nerf thread after nerf thread, and further distorting the balance of power. At this rate, we will be playing the exact same class by the end of next year, just with different animations.

“The haft of the arrow had been feathered with one of the eagle's own plumes. We often give our enemies the means of our own destruction.”
- Aesop

Now that we have taken at look at what is possible and why it's detrimental to gameplay, let's look at possible mitigation suggestions.

1) Reinstate a softer version of Softcaps. The previous diminishing returns from softcaps was too harsh, as a 50% DR resulted in a "STOP PUTTING POINTS HERE NOW" reaction for most people in the community. A 25% (number subject to testing) DR would have been more reasonable, enough to allow variance in builds while not provoking the previous response that most people had. Softcaps place limits on character power, and ensure that power creep doesn't become too significant.

2) Reduce the bonuses from the Champion System. The % of attributes gained from the Champion System along with the high % bonus for investing into various stars make a huge impact on power creep. By reducing the impact of stat gain (Eg. 25% at 100pts Elemental Expert -> 15%), this allows the Champion System to allow for varied builds, while not completely throwing the balance out of whack. In addition, the current scaling of the bonuses are too linear, and it should be changed to provide an even larger % of the bonus at lower CP values, thereby increases the DR of stacking a single star.

3) Reduce the effectiveness of VR16 gear OR buff VR14 gear to be somewhat competitive with VR16 Gear. This allows lower VR players/undergeared players to be somewhat relevant, instead of being completely obsolete in the current state of affairs. This will even out the sheer amount of stat difference between the players, and promote varied builds while keeping power creep under control. There are many sets at VR12 and VR14 that are interesting to use, but the sheer power of VR16 gear renders them obsolete in anything but the most focused builds.

4) (PVP)Revert various nerfs to siege engines. Partially to combat zergs and also partially to combat lag. Various siege engines were nerfed over the course of the last two years, with the most significant being Oil Catapult's purgeable snare, and the height restriction on Oils. Powerful engines of war means that less reliance is placed on individual player stats, which gives anyone the chance to compete and remain relevant. PvP is where class balance matters the most, and if there were means to combat the innate imbalances of classes in various situations with Siege Engines, there would be much lesser "nerfs" needed overall. Give an equalizer to the players, and give a chance of counterplay to the equalizer. Siege Engines serve that niche perfectly.

Once power creep has been put in check, we can revert nerfs that were done to various abilities. Abilities like Bolt Escape and vital defensive moves like Blocking and Dodging can be reverted to their former glory, as without the current power level of stats to fuel it, they will never reach the level of cheesiness they did in the height of their power back in 1.6. With damage reigned in due to the implementation of softcaps, the damage mitigation in Cyrodiil can be reduced, thereby ensuring more players can remain relevant, while not allowing fully geared players to completely dominate the battlefield as they currently do in the current implementation of 1.7.

What are your thoughts?

Emma_Overload

NO to all of this. What is the point of grinding to progress your toons if that progression is going to be rolled back on a whim?

Furthermore, the "power creep" from the Champion System is a much needed boost to solo-oriented players like me who have been struggling to conquer as much of the group content in the game as possible. The extra power that comes from hundreds of CP offers many players an important alternate path to accomplishing their goals in the game, goals that may not have even been possible before Update 1.6.

Finally, I don't share your optimism that ZOS would roll back the nerfs to Bolt Escape or whatever. Those abilities probably need a conceptual overhaul, not a mere tweak or re-balancing. Who knows when (or if) ZOS will get around to overhauling the abilities and combat mechanics.

Wing

1.5 was the closest this game ever came to balanced

DaniAngione

This was an amazing read. Thank you, sir.

It's one of the first approaches I've seen that are trying to see the problem under the hood instead of only blaming nerfs and buffs. It's something a lot of people have felt (me included) but I've never really been the number crunching type of person so I really can't tell much :P

Anyway, I do hope these insights and feedbacks the community have from time to time are read and at least discussed internally by the devs... However, I'm afraid that in this particular case of the V16 changes and sets, it's kind of a way to encourage buying the DLC... Well, I dunno.

Anyway, good read!

jnjdun_ESO

Very thoughtful post.

Thanks for including the video about power creep. It's enlightening.

The other night I was talking to my husband about this exact thing, but I didn’t know the right way to explain it. I just told him that perhaps I was outgrowing MMOs as I just don’t enjoy grinding and pve'ing for hours just to get new gear to be competitive in pvp.

Unfortunately, as more and more DLCs come out, the worse it's going to get.

Araxleon

Agreed.

SleepyTroll

Great post, I pretty much agree with everything and I hope more people see this and ZOS pays attention to threads like this instead of whining threads. I think the way the game is headed people are being forced into cookie cutter builds more then ever. I really just want to ask ZOS why they would nerf block the way they did but not take away block casting instead, I feel like they take the easy route instead of the better one, or they just dont know how. Another thing why did they nerf hp attributes and gliphs, just to have to nerf damage, take away the first nerf and I think there would be no need for the second nerf. Im hoping at least by December they fix the hole CP mess they created.
This may be completely off topic but how do people justify whining about TTK when they put every attribute point and all glyphs into either magicka or stamina and no hp? In pve players spec at least some into hp and in pvp they just cry for nerfs becuase they don't want to give up there glass cannon builds. If your wearing cloth and you don't have no hp you should die fast, if your out in the open on the front lines.

SleepyTroll

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

NO to all of this. What is the point of grinding to progress your toons if that progression is going to be rolled back on a whim?

Furthermore, the "power creep" from the Champion System is a much needed boost to solo-oriented players like me who have been struggling to conquer as much of the group content in the game as possible. The extra power that comes from hundreds of CP offers many players an important alternate path to accomplishing their goals in the game, goals that may not have even been possible before Update 1.6.

Finally, I don't share your optimism that ZOS would roll back the nerfs to Bolt Escape or whatever. Those abilities probably need a conceptual overhaul, not a mere tweak or re-balancing. Who knows when (or if) ZOS will get around to overhauling the abilities and combat mechanics.

Wait so you like that you can solo group content lol Its an an MMORPG. Like the guy who soloed the last boss in the white gold tower, like that's cool and all but that shouldn't be possible. I'm sorry your playing an online game that requires a group.

Araxleon

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

No to all of this. What is the point of grinding to progress your toons if that progression is going to be rolled back on a whim?

Furthermore, the "power creep" from the Champion System is a much needed boost to solo-oriented players like me who have been struggling to conquer as much of the group content in the game as possible. The extra power that comes from hundreds of CP offers many players an important alternate path to accomplishing their goals in the game, goals that may not have even been possible before Update 1.6.

Finally, I don't share your optimism that ZOS would roll back the nerfs to Bolt Escape or whatever. Those abilities probably need a conceptual overhaul, not a mere tweak or re-balancing. Who knows when (or if) ZOS will get around to overhauling the abilities and combat mechanics.

you could always do things solo before CP.

I did trials atronach boss solo when trials came out and I was fine (which DID drop gear and I farmed it)

You could always do stuff solo I felt like CP wasnt really needed.

UltimaJoe777

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Great post, I pretty much agree with everything and I hope more people see this and ZOS pays attention to threads like this instead of whining threads. I think the way the game is headed people are being forced into cookie cutter builds more then ever. I really just want to ask ZOS why they would nerf block the way they did but not take away block casting instead, I feel like they take the easy route instead of the better one, or they just dont know how. Another thing why did they nerf hp attributes and gliphs, just to have to nerf damage, take away the first nerf and I think there would be no need for the second nerf. Im hoping at least by December they fix the hole CP mess they created.
This may be completely off topic but how do people justify whining about TTK when they put every attribute point and all glyphs into either magicka or stamina and no hp? In pve players spec at least some into hp and in pvp they just cry for nerfs becuase they don't want to give up there glass cannon builds. If your wearing cloth and you don't have no hp you should die fast, if your out in the open on the front lines.

What makes you think they do pay attention to whiny threads? lol

SleepyTroll

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

What makes you think they do pay attention to whiny threads? lol

I mean all the nerfs maybe...

Soulshine

The catastrophic issue with the CP system and power creep is so pathetically obvious it is beyond belief, yet it is constantly overlooked, or rather deliberately denied: there are no meaningful compromises whatsoever put in place to balance the point paths available.

EVERYONE can have ALL possible points in the system maxed out eventually, regardless of build and gear. You can have magicka based builds able to max out stamina cost reduction, weapon damage, etc., as well as have stamina builds able to max out spell cost reduction and spell critical, etc. Such a system is the absolute epitome of what leads to power creep in games since there are no balances whatsoever in it.

There is a reason other games that employ skill trees with passive bonuses force players to make choices and do not allow for everything and anything to be an option to a SINGLE build. Seasonal caps and other such rubbish proposals are not going to solve the issue here, they will only stave off over a modicum of time the inevitable result.

UltimaJoe777

SleepyTroll wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

What makes you think they do pay attention to whiny threads? lol

I mean all the nerfs maybe...

It isn't because people whine about them though. Zenimax would not nerf or buff a skill unless they personally saw fit to do it with good reason.

SleepyTroll

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

What makes you think they do pay attention to whiny threads? lol

I mean all the nerfs maybe...

It isn't because people whine about them though. Zenimax would not nerf or buff a skill unless they personally saw fit to do it with good reason.

Your joking right? Like you trying to troll me right now?

UltimaJoe777

SleepyTroll wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

What makes you think they do pay attention to whiny threads? lol

I mean all the nerfs maybe...

It isn't because people whine about them though. Zenimax would not nerf or buff a skill unless they personally saw fit to do it with good reason.

Your joking right? Like you trying to troll me right now?

If you don't believe me then ask Zenimax in their "Ask Us Anything" thread and see if they answer you.

riverdragon72

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

NO to all of this. What is the point of grinding to progress your toons if that progression is going to be rolled back on a whim

ZoS does this anytime they feel with patches. it's like buying a new car you are happy with, you make the payments and all, but one day you go to leave for work and two doors are missing, one wheel doesn't have a tire on it, the head lights are broken out and the muffler is gone. In response there is a "we're sorry" note from the manufacturer on the windsheild and there you go.

DeanTheCat

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Great post, I pretty much agree with everything and I hope more people see this and ZOS pays attention to threads like this instead of whining threads. I think the way the game is headed people are being forced into cookie cutter builds more then ever. I really just want to ask ZOS why they would nerf block the way they did but not take away block casting instead, I feel like they take the easy route instead of the better one, or they just dont know how. Another thing why did they nerf hp attributes and gliphs, just to have to nerf damage, take away the first nerf and I think there would be no need for the second nerf. Im hoping at least by December they fix the hole CP mess they created.
This may be completely off topic but how do people justify whining about TTK when they put every attribute point and all glyphs into either magicka or stamina and no hp? In pve players spec at least some into hp and in pvp they just cry for nerfs becuase they don't want to give up there glass cannon builds. If your wearing cloth and you don't have no hp you should die fast, if your out in the open on the front lines.

People normally assuming everything isn't their fault, and that they are blameless. Like I said, we give our enemies the means of our own destruction. I really hope that we can have some form of balance back to ESO, as the game was much more fun before 1.6. Back then, you only had to contend with gearing and skill. Now you have to contend with broken mechanics, gearing, skill and time invested.

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

NO to all of this. What is the point of grinding to progress your toons if that progression is going to be rolled back on a whim?

Furthermore, the "power creep" from the Champion System is a much needed boost to solo-oriented players like me who have been struggling to conquer as much of the group content in the game as possible. The extra power that comes from hundreds of CP offers many players an important alternate path to accomplishing their goals in the game, goals that may not have even been possible before Update 1.6.

Finally, I don't share your optimism that ZOS would roll back the nerfs to Bolt Escape or whatever. Those abilities probably need a conceptual overhaul, not a mere tweak or re-balancing. Who knows when (or if) ZOS will get around to overhauling the abilities and combat mechanics.

Solo players managing to solo what was never meant to be solo-ed is a perfect example of power creep being too high. If we constantly continue to try to cater to balance for these "pure soloists", what happens in a group situation? Everyone would be so blatantly overpowered, that combat would boil down to who landed the 1st blow, or the devs need to implement cheap one-shot mechanics to mobs instead of providing real difficulty.

Soulshine wrote: »

The catastrophic issue with the CP system and power creep is so pathetically obvious it is beyond belief, yet it is constantly overlooked, or rather deliberately denied: there are no meaningful compromises whatsoever put in place to balance the point paths available.

EVERYONE can have ALL possible points in the system maxed out eventually, regardless of build and gear. You can have magicka based builds able to max out stamina cost reduction, weapon damage, etc., as well as have stamina builds able to max out spell cost reduction and spell critical, etc. Such a system is the absolute epitome of what leads to power creep in games since there are no balances whatsoever in it.

There is a reason other games that employ skill trees with passive bonuses force players to make choices and do not allow for everything and anything to be an option to a SINGLE build. Seasonal caps and other such rubbish proposals are not going to solve the issue here, they will only stave off over a modicum of time the inevitable result.

Which is why there needs to be a cap on number of points spent, not number of points earned. Nobody should be able to max out more than 25% of the CP system.

Soulshine

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Which is why there needs to be a cap on number of points spent, not number of points earned. Nobody should be able to max out more than 25% of the CP system.

That is still a band-aide to the problem, especially if you are going to still allow people to willy-nilly invest in every single star. People are already proving, in typical fashion, that cookie cutter builds for meta are their only interest and any other viable options in most arenas for competitive play, whether they are PvE or PvP, are disregarded. Then comes the nerf-this-that parade as a result. The system completely fails to provide any meaningful choices for diversity, let alone effectiveness based on player skill.

DeanTheCat

Soulshine wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Which is why there needs to be a cap on number of points spent, not number of points earned. Nobody should be able to max out more than 25% of the CP system.

That is still a band-aide to the problem, especially if you are going to still allow people to willy-nilly invest in every single star. People are already proving, in typical fashion, that cookie cutter builds for meta are their only interest and any other viable options in most arenas for competitive play, whether they are PvE or PvP, are disregarded. Then comes the nerf-this-that parade as a result. The system completely fails to provide any meaningful choices for diversity, let alone effectiveness based on player skill.

I get what you mean, but ZoS is now too invested into the CP system at this point to pull out unscathed. The only solutions that ZoS would consider are solutions that leave the CP system in in some form. Perhaps the point paths could be tweaked? Put Magicka benefiting passives in tree favouring Stamina and vici versa. That way, along with a cap with the number of points spent would make players choose between having passives that benefit their build or trees that boost their style of play.

Gilvoth

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

NO to all of this. What is the point of grinding to progress your toons if that progression is going to be rolled back on a whim?

Furthermore, the "power creep" from the Champion System is a much needed boost to solo-oriented players like me who have been struggling to conquer as much of the group content in the game as possible. The extra power that comes from hundreds of CP offers many players an important alternate path to accomplishing their goals in the game, goals that may not have even been possible before Update 1.6.

Finally, I don't share your optimism that ZOS would roll back the nerfs to Bolt Escape or whatever. Those abilities probably need a conceptual overhaul, not a mere tweak or re-balancing. Who knows when (or if) ZOS will get around to overhauling the abilities and combat mechanics.

Wait so you like that you can solo group content lol Its an an MMORPG. Like the guy who soloed the last boss in the white gold tower, like that's cool and all but that shouldn't be possible. I'm sorry your playing an online game that requires a group.

thats not true, in many mmo's they do have NPC followers and hirelings you can get to help you ingame and dungeons.
eso is not the norm, look at dungeons and dragons online, they have allowed as many as 6 hireling NPC's to help you in dungeons and with bosses
there is solo play in eso and it is what i love and it is what i look for in all mmo's i play.
many of us solo players love the solo experiance in an mmo.
those who do not like solo play and look for group on a constant basis willl find thier groups.
everyone wins, us solo players tho need more solo stuff in eso to satisfy our solo desires.

Soulshine

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Which is why there needs to be a cap on number of points spent, not number of points earned. Nobody should be able to max out more than 25% of the CP system.

That is still a band-aide to the problem, especially if you are going to still allow people to willy-nilly invest in every single star. People are already proving, in typical fashion, that cookie cutter builds for meta are their only interest and any other viable options in most arenas for competitive play, whether they are PvE or PvP, are disregarded. Then comes the nerf-this-that parade as a result. The system completely fails to provide any meaningful choices for diversity, let alone effectiveness based on player skill.

I get what you mean, but ZoS is now too invested into the CP system at this point to pull out unscathed. The only solutions that ZoS would consider are solutions that leave the CP system in in some form. Perhaps the point paths could be tweaked? Put Magicka benefiting passives in tree favouring Stamina and vici versa. That way, along with a cap with the number of points spent would make players choose between having passives that benefit their build or trees that boost their style of play.

Unscathed? Hehe. I'd say at this point their view on the CP system is a classic sunk cost fallacy, let alone most players are already viewing it that way. I agree that making players choose either build benefit or playstyle must be part of the equation, but so far it is pretty clear from all manner of statements I have read and heard them make that they are not looking in that direction at all. Frankly, after the departures of Konkle, Sage and Aliprando in particular I had some hope that things might have budged in a different direction with Wrobel stepping in, but after seeing a few more ESO Lives, that dissipated pretty quickly. Whatever they intend to do with this system, I definitely don't see them backing off the creep path any time soon.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Excellent post. It clearly highlights all the casualties of the champion system and the removal of softcaps.

The bottom line is that controls have to go somewhere to avoid extreme builds. I would rather the controls be placed on meaningless numbers such as attributes, regen, and damage than have my skills nerfed, game mechanics like block and dodge nerfed, and even my gear choice nerfed (I'm looking at you rings of Agility/Endurance/Willpower).


I shouldn't be punished for using a skill more than once. This leads to inconsistent nerfs, terrible balance, and frustration.

Eventually, it leads to cooldowns.

The most awesome part about the combat system in this game from the onset was the lack of cooldowns, and the reliance on resource management. If you had resources, you could use a skill as often as you wanted. No resources? You died. If you can get unlimited resources, this breaks the system. Suddenly skills that were fine are now OP and one shotting people or letting you perma-whatever.



TL;DR: This game is slowly changing from "Resource Management" combat mechanics, to "Skill Cooldown" combat mechanics due to power creep caused by the champion system and removal of softcaps. Everything we love is getting nerfed to sustain the champion system.

SleepyTroll

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

NO to all of this. What is the point of grinding to progress your toons if that progression is going to be rolled back on a whim?

Furthermore, the "power creep" from the Champion System is a much needed boost to solo-oriented players like me who have been struggling to conquer as much of the group content in the game as possible. The extra power that comes from hundreds of CP offers many players an important alternate path to accomplishing their goals in the game, goals that may not have even been possible before Update 1.6.

Finally, I don't share your optimism that ZOS would roll back the nerfs to Bolt Escape or whatever. Those abilities probably need a conceptual overhaul, not a mere tweak or re-balancing. Who knows when (or if) ZOS will get around to overhauling the abilities and combat mechanics.

Wait so you like that you can solo group content lol Its an an MMORPG. Like the guy who soloed the last boss in the white gold tower, like that's cool and all but that shouldn't be possible. I'm sorry your playing an online game that requires a group.

thats not true, in many mmo's they do have NPC followers and hirelings you can get to help you ingame and dungeons.
eso is not the norm, look at dungeons and dragons online, they have allowed as many as 6 hireling NPC's to help you in dungeons and with bosses
there is solo play in eso and it is what i love and it is what i look for in all mmo's i play.
many of us solo players love the solo experiance in an mmo.
those who do not like solo play and look for group on a constant basis willl find thier groups.
everyone wins, us solo players tho need more solo stuff in eso to satisfy our solo desires.

lol one game you named that is the "norm" and that game is not even one of the top ten mmos. you should not be able to solo something that should take multiple people to kill, if you want solo content then that's what the next dlc will be. you can have all the solo content you want idc but group content shouldn't be soloed.

hrothbern

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

NO to all of this. What is the point of grinding to progress your toons if that progression is going to be rolled back on a whim?

Furthermore, the "power creep" from the Champion System is a much needed boost to solo-oriented players like me who have been struggling to conquer as much of the group content in the game as possible. The extra power that comes from hundreds of CP offers many players an important alternate path to accomplishing their goals in the game, goals that may not have even been possible before Update 1.6.

Finally, I don't share your optimism that ZOS would roll back the nerfs to Bolt Escape or whatever. Those abilities probably need a conceptual overhaul, not a mere tweak or re-balancing. Who knows when (or if) ZOS will get around to overhauling the abilities and combat mechanics.

Wait so you like that you can solo group content lol Its an an MMORPG. Like the guy who soloed the last boss in the white gold tower, like that's cool and all but that shouldn't be possible. I'm sorry your playing an online game that requires a group.

You said: "I'm sorry your playing an online game that requires a group"
Oh no,
you mean that?
You want to nerf the player base ???

This platform is paid by all players !!!
also people like to me, who mix playing solo with playing duo or going with a group or a zerg
and please do not forget the TES RPG roots of not only this game, but also the playerbase.
The TES roots are not a gimmick to have something different from WOW and have some kind of a "guaranteed" start up pool of players.
ZOS created a new kind of MMO.

So far I think ZOS balances this diversified playerbase very well, enabling as well high diversity in builds.
Is simply said a fantastic achievement so far.

And playing "group" content solo is a fantastic challenge, also highly challenging the build profile.

SleepyTroll

hrothbern wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

NO to all of this. What is the point of grinding to progress your toons if that progression is going to be rolled back on a whim?

Furthermore, the "power creep" from the Champion System is a much needed boost to solo-oriented players like me who have been struggling to conquer as much of the group content in the game as possible. The extra power that comes from hundreds of CP offers many players an important alternate path to accomplishing their goals in the game, goals that may not have even been possible before Update 1.6.

Finally, I don't share your optimism that ZOS would roll back the nerfs to Bolt Escape or whatever. Those abilities probably need a conceptual overhaul, not a mere tweak or re-balancing. Who knows when (or if) ZOS will get around to overhauling the abilities and combat mechanics.

Wait so you like that you can solo group content lol Its an an MMORPG. Like the guy who soloed the last boss in the white gold tower, like that's cool and all but that shouldn't be possible. I'm sorry your playing an online game that requires a group.

You said: "I'm sorry your playing an online game that requires a group"
Oh no,
you mean that?
You want to nerf the player base ???

This platform is paid by all players !!!
also people like to me, who mix playing solo with playing duo or going with a group or a zerg
and please do not forget the TES RPG roots of not only this game, but also the playerbase.
The TES roots are not a gimmick to have something different from WOW and have some kind of a "guaranteed" start up pool of players.
ZOS created a new kind of MMO.

So far I think ZOS balances this diversified playerbase very well, enabling as well high diversity in builds.
Is simply said a fantastic achievement so far.

And playing "group" content solo is a fantastic challenge, also highly challenging the build profile.

Ill just paste what I put right above your post that you ignored...
lol one game you named that is the "norm" and that game is not even one of the top ten mmos. you should not be able to solo something that should take multiple people to kill, if you want solo content then that's what the next dlc will be. you can have all the solo content you want idc but group content shouldn't be soloed.

Turelus

Dean for Dev!

maxlacab16_ESO

@DeanTheCat Very good post, but I have to disagree.

Every game or sport or art or skill is based on the principle of "Rewards for Investment" or "Mastery through Practice."
Players who invest large parts of their time in building knowledge, skills and routines within the framework of the game, should by all means be rewarded for their efforts. If those rewards were capped, and everyone who played the game could achieve the same "excellence" and "advancement" in a casual play style, the game would be pointless!

In the big and relevant marathon races, there is always a small group of "hard core" racers, who with every race they run, push the envelope of what is humanly possible. Then there are many many others who are fast, very fast, but often more than an hour behind that 'hard core' group in the front! And then you got the tens of thousands who hope that they will be able to finish the race on their feet, and not die of a exhaustion or a heart attack!
Now, should the front runners be capped for the sake of the pack? The race would be pointless and the marathon would die!

The dis-balance between casual gamers and intense (hard-core) gamers will always be extreme. If the game did not allow this, there would be no intense gamers and there would be no game at all...it would be Angry Birds.

In addition, the dis-balance you point out is only relevant in PVP. In PVE your best buddy is the one that can protect you from all the baddies in the world!

As for selective grouping in PVE: let the VR16 Legends group with each other and sweep up all the trophies, items and loot they want. There are hundreds of other players still wanting to do the same content at lower levels. If you are not a VR16 Legend, don't pretend to be one! And if you are lucky, you may convince a VR16 Legend to run with you and get you that upgrade that you have failed to get on your own!

On the point of class dis-balance, which you did not get into, I can only suggest that if you think your own class is overpowered by another, roll a new character of that class and see if the class is actually OP, or if you just need to L2P!

IMO, nerfing a class or skill is always the wrong fix and never a solution. If the lower level players indeed want to be SAFE from higher level players in PVP, then I would suggest to BRACKET the levels and make it impossible to attack a player in another BRACKET than your own!

just my 2c

Darkeus

imo they should re add soft caps, starting with 10% 20% 30% till max cap.

DeanTheCat

maxlacab16_ESO wrote: »

@DeanTheCat Very good post, but I have to disagree.

Every game or sport or art or skill is based on the principle of "Rewards for Investment" or "Mastery through Practice."
Players who invest large parts of their time in building knowledge, skills and routines within the framework of the game, should by all means be rewarded for their efforts. If those rewards were capped, and everyone who played the game could achieve the same "excellence" and "advancement" in a casual play style, the game would be pointless!

In the big and relevant marathon races, there is always a small group of "hard core" racers, who with every race they run, push the envelope of what is humanly possible. Then there are many many others who are fast, very fast, but often more than an hour behind that 'hard core' group in the front! And then you got the tens of thousands who hope that they will be able to finish the race on their feet, and not die of a exhaustion or a heart attack!
Now, should the front runners be capped for the sake of the pack? The race would be pointless and the marathon would die!

The dis-balance between casual gamers and intense (hard-core) gamers will always be extreme. If the game did not allow this, there would be no intense gamers and there would be no game at all...it would be Angry Birds.

In addition, the dis-balance you point out is only relevant in PVP. In PVE your best buddy is the one that can protect you from all the baddies in the world!

As for selective grouping in PVE: let the VR16 Legends group with each other and sweep up all the trophies, items and loot they want. There are hundreds of other players still wanting to do the same content at lower levels. If you are not a VR16 Legend, don't pretend to be one! And if you are lucky, you may convince a VR16 Legend to run with you and get you that upgrade that you have failed to get on your own!

On the point of class dis-balance, which you did not get into, I can only suggest that if you think your own class is overpowered by another, roll a new character of that class and see if the class is actually OP, or if you just need to L2P!

IMO, nerfing a class or skill is always the wrong fix and never a solution. If the lower level players indeed want to be SAFE from higher level players in PVP, then I would suggest to BRACKET the levels and make it impossible to attack a player in another BRACKET than your own!

just my 2c

The thing is, ESO is mainly funded by these "Casual" players, who will never hit softcaps, even if they were re-implemented. Back before 1.6 came in and removed soft-caps, most people who you would consider "Casual" didn't even get half the stats needed to hit soft caps. These changes proposed are mainly targeted at the top 5% of the population, who would dominate no matter what situation they were placed in. All that the capping does is that it returns the top 5% from demi-god status into champion status, to make it seem that the "Casuals" could actually have a chance of winning. Nobody likes playing a game where they stood mathematically 0% chance of winning. If all those "Casual" players who you disdain all decided to leave today, I can assure you that ESO will shut down within a month. I do not wish that to happen to a game I enjoy and love.

I did not delve deeper into the issue of class imbalance as I feel that the problem goes far deeper then a simple "Class Imbalance". The basic mechanics are currently flawed, and the current Buff-Nerf See-Saw is nothing more then treating the symptom rather than the cause. When removing weeds from an otherwise pristine garden, one removes them at the roots, and not just cutting what's visible.

If my proposed changes were implemented, I stand to lose a lot from these changes, as I'm already pushing the envelope of my class and playstyle to the absolute limit of what is possible. And I can safely say that from my point of view, it is extremely unfair to anyone not within a reasonable margin of my current progress. Many players who I face had mathematically less than 10% chance of winning, and that's not due to my skill, but the sheer stats that I have. I push for these changes not for my own good, but for the good of the game.

Cyrodiil is designed to be an alliance vs alliance style of combat, and arbitrarily restricting the types of opponents which you can fight hurts the spirit of realm pride, something that is already currently lacking. The non-veteran campaign serves it's purpose as a tutorial, but you should never stop a player from attacking an enemy he can see. The ESO PvP community is already fragmented as it is, and more barriers would render everything pointless.

In regards for the PvE aspect, I play games (Yes, I do play PvE occasionally) to have a challenge, and I never liked the feeling of "being carried". Therefore, I strive to push myself to the very best I can be. What's the fun for you in PvE when you get your loot, but you never actually earned it yourself? It's nothing more than a hollow victory, knowing that you relied on someone else to get you to where you are. I'm sure I'm not the only one who shares this sentiment. Many people out there want to get the epic loot that we all want, but also want to feel that they actually made an effort to obtain it. Thus it is also needed to cap the power of players in a PvE setting, to ensure that if a team wishes to succeed, they need to all chip in. I'm sure that you would prefer to finish an instance (I know I would) and say "That was tough, but we all worked together, this is our victory!" rather then "Thanks for carrying me through it".

Another fact is that if player power levels get too high in a PvE setting, the developers will be forced to add artificial difficulty to the game to balance it, usually in the form of cheap mechanics like enrage timers or one-shot mechanics. The challenge will only then be completable by a team of elites with maximum stats, which leaves the average John Doe completely out of it. They will then leave the game due to a lack of content which they can attempt, which brings me back to my original point of ESO being primarily funded by "Casual" players.

To reiterate, you cannot balance for the top 5%. You balance everyone such that everyone has a chance to compete, instead of completely being locked out because they have mathematically 0% chance to succeed.

Wollust

I used to be a PVEr and casual PVPer in 1.5. Back then you had to gear up and any further increase in DPS would be only about skills and with no infinite growth in power. Then 1.6 hit, softcaps were removed and championsystem inplemented. We struggled in the beginning, but once we found out builds, our DPS went through the roof, allowing us to skip most of the mechanics in dungeons and trials. Now if this wasn't already a problem, the championsystem allowed us to outperform ourselves day by day, by grinding those mobs and making it harder and harder for newer players to perform like that. Everything in PVE got so boring that I changed to PVP in june. While the championsystem also applies here, it had a much lower impact but would still mean a decent advantage of course. And now with 1.7, proper gearing is hard and making the distance between those casual players and players like ourselves with V16 gear and way above average CP even bigger, which in the end promotes the zergmentality. (Btw, DPS in PVE is now even more disgustingly high than in 1.6)
The removal of softcaps and the championpointsystem is what is causing the constant crying for nerfs. And I'm pretty sure ZOS knows, but they can't and won't just back up from their much anticipated, but dissappointing stuff. Which is why this game will kill itself in the end.

kevlarto_ESO

I think all the mmo's I have played since the 90's have had soft caps, steep diminishing returns things in place to keep players close in the level of power, and for good reason, remove these and we have a lot of the problems we have seen here in ESO, infinite dodge roll, infinite blocking, infinite bolt escape, crazy damage numbers, crazy regen rates, and for ZOS the counter to no caps is to just put heavy penalties on the use of the former infinite xxx, now throw in the champion point system on top and ZOS has created a balancing nightmare with a huge power gap slowly getting larger and larger as more and more players grind out cp. Throw in broken and exploitable game mechanics on top of all the other things.

I like the fact that ESO is not your standard wow clone game or even your run of the mill theme park game, but some mechanics are hard to work around and have been more or less an industry standard for years, maybe in that area ZOS should have been a little more mainstream with some caps in place and the cp system should have been more horizontal progression instead of vertical would have helped also.