Change unmorphed and morphed skill design

technohic · January 2019

So say you have mag character of a class already max level and you want to level a stam version of the same class. You go to do it but soon realize all of your class skills base form are magicka. So you pretty much play a magicka Character out the gate. It seems ZOS might realize this as they eventually give you an attribute reset scroll but that's a long way off, and if you are trying to get a higher level in the skill tree it's pretty much worthless until you hit level 50 and at that point, you have not learned how to play the character you intended it to be.

Why not make the base skills scale and pull from your highest stat between magicka and stamina? That way you play what you want from the start, and then you wind up leaving more options for both mag and stam characters later on as no ability is then locked to magicka.

Just class abilities so that you give both styles of a class access to their class identity. Weapons costing what they cost and which resource fits there identity. And the power of the morphs can basically then reflect what they most make sense. IE HTD would be much better than the base morph as it really is a magical kind of ability. Maybe base cloak costs a little more and does not give the stealth bonuses, so it's only an escape. Something to make it worthwhile to morph but accessible if you don't

TheShadowScout · January 2019

technohic wrote: »

So say you have mag character of a class already max level and you want to level a stam version of the same class. You go to do it but soon realize all of your class skills base form are magicka...

...which makes sense considering those are basically -spells-!

That's the main difference between stamina charactes (aka, "Warriors"), and magica characters (aka, "Wizards")...

The warriors are -supposed- to use their physical strength and skill (aka, stamina) to wield weapons and do their damage this way. Swing a big axe very hard to chop through flesh, stab someone with a dagger, shoot an arrow at their face, whatever...

The wizards on the other hand are supposed to be nerdy bookwyrms, who do not trust in brawn, but in brains, and blast their enemies with magical spells and stuff! Magical spells, -just- like those class skills! And also the staff skills I guess. You know, balls of fire and bolts of lightning, mystic curses and magical healings, that sort of thing.

And yes, there are some class skills that are a "little bit of both", and those usually get a morph for specializing into the magica part, and a different morph specializing into the stamina part. And since we do not have half-half costs, they change to stamina on the latter. You know... magic up a holy spear, then poke it at your enemy with your brawn... magic up a mystic dagger, then physically strike someone with it... that sort of thing.

So I wonder...

technohic wrote: »

Why not make the base skills scale and pull from your highest stat between magicka and stamina?

...why do some people want stamina and magica characters to be the same???
I mean, what's the point in having two stats, when you play the same character either way?
Especially when it would make no sense at all for a stamina "warrior" to leave their weapons at home, and instead make magic effects through sheer muscle-flexing... I mean, that is what a wizard might do, but not a warrior, right? So if you want that, you should make a magica character, right?

So, basically, the general intention is, stamina characters rely on -weapon skills- because warrior, and magica characters get a wider range of all those nifty spells because that is what being a magical caster is all about...
...why would that ever need changing???

If anything, the warriors ought to get more weapons to play with...

Finviuswe · January 2019

I agree man. It's about time.

It's about time. Change that. I don't know

Grimm13 · January 2019

@TheShadowScout I believe you are missing the point. But I do think the op missed a point as well.

Over all op idea is good but I would suggest not to have based on your highest skill but what powers the skill is determined by the weapon slotted.

This would make each class equal in regardless to magkic and stamina. It leaves the power choice to the player instead of forced dynamics.

TheShadowScout · January 2019

Grimm13 wrote: »

This would make each class equal in regardless to magkic and stamina. It leaves the power choice to the player instead of forced dynamics.

The power choice is -already- up to the player.

If they choose stamina, they are not -supposed- to have all the "magical" -class skills- as their main usefulness... they are supposed to have all the stamina -weapon skills-.
Because stamina characters are the -warriors-.
I really don't see how changing things the way the OP suggested would make things better in allowing stamina character "warriors" to cast their "magical" class skills as well as a magica character "wizard"... what would be the point of having a choice when both options end up being exactly the same in their class skills selection setup?

The idea of having class skills change their effect depending on weapon held while casting them tho... that one would be something I could see worth considering. Not in an "let templar warriors cast radiant light just as well as templar priests", not making the brainy magical skills scale of the best attribute even if that was the brawny stamina...
...but...
...changing it somewhat to be more useful. Like, use a class skill with a wizard staff, get bonus Damage, use it with a warrior weapon, get bonus damage shield, etc.

idk · January 2019

Considering how fast most of these skills level up to the morph point I have never seen this as an issue and I have leveled up many stam characters as stam.

Lets be frank, most experienced players fine questing extremely easy as it is and most new players that struggle do not understand these things anyhow so it seems like a huge change for such little benefit. Even those new players would not really benefit since many are not exactly gearing idealy to begin with.

Heck, I leveled up my first two characters to level 50 with whatever dropped and have done the same with a couple more since before those days.

Grimm13 · January 2019

@TheShadowScout

Class skills are nothing more than spells. As such you have casters more adapt at casting by manipulating manna (magicka) or by sheer brute force (stamina). IMO there is no reason to limit which power source they use. Every character using a class skill is a spell caster.

technohic · January 2019

It's true that the skills level up quickly but I find when leveling a character that I'm starved for skill points and it just feels like a grind rather than rewarding gameplay to have to go zone to zone clearing skyshards, and some stam morph might be higher level so you still have to have skills you dont intend to morph or use on your bar to level the skill line.

The best experience I had was recently leveling a mag DK. I did the harborage quests ti get those skill points until I hit a level gate, then I'd skyshard hunt until the next quest came available. I basically just used one bar with the skill for the back bar weapon on the front bar, then kept at least 1 ability from each class line on there until it could be morphed and added new ones as they came available. Wasnt a speed level but I got to try every skill a little and know what is available to me and I liked that. Using them cohesively, I'm still learning now that it's a level 50 character.

Go to do a stamwarden thinking I'll do the same thing, but realized I cant. I have to go as a magden if I want to learn the class; and it's only going to be that half.

dazee · January 2019

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Grimm13 wrote: »

This would make each class equal in regardless to magkic and stamina. It leaves the power choice to the player instead of forced dynamics.

The power choice is -already- up to the player.

If they choose stamina, they are not -supposed- to have all the "magical" -class skills- as their main usefulness... they are supposed to have all the stamina -weapon skills-.
Because stamina characters are the -warriors-.
I really don't see how changing things the way the OP suggested would make things better in allowing stamina character "warriors" to cast their "magical" class skills as well as a magica character "wizard"... what would be the point of having a choice when both options end up being exactly the same in their class skills selection setup?

The idea of having class skills change their effect depending on weapon held while casting them tho... that one would be something I could see worth considering. Not in an "let templar warriors cast radiant light just as well as templar priests", not making the brainy magical skills scale of the best attribute even if that was the brawny stamina...
...but...
...changing it somewhat to be more useful. Like, use a class skill with a wizard staff, get bonus Damage, use it with a warrior weapon, get bonus damage shield, etc.

Except class skills are already stronger than weapon skills in many many cases, and you get so many passive bonuses from slotting class skills that its far easier to build a good magicka character than stam. stam has far fewer choices to be truly effective.

kargen27 · January 2019

technohic wrote: »

It's true that the skills level up quickly but I find when leveling a character that I'm starved for skill points and it just feels like a grind rather than rewarding gameplay to have to go zone to zone clearing skyshards, and some stam morph might be higher level so you still have to have skills you dont intend to morph or use on your bar to level the skill line.

The best experience I had was recently leveling a mag DK. I did the harborage quests ti get those skill points until I hit a level gate, then I'd skyshard hunt until the next quest came available. I basically just used one bar with the skill for the back bar weapon on the front bar, then kept at least 1 ability from each class line on there until it could be morphed and added new ones as they came available. Wasnt a speed level but I got to try every skill a little and know what is available to me and I liked that. Using them cohesively, I'm still learning now that it's a level 50 character.

Go to do a stamwarden thinking I'll do the same thing, but realized I cant. I have to go as a magden if I want to learn the class; and it's only going to be that half.

Now look at it from the magicka based character that wants to learn duel wield skill line. Same thing. Player made a choice to be magicka based so leveling weapon skills is going to be a bit of a pain. It is a choice though and the OP basically makes it so really there is not choice.

Characters are a combination of weapon and class skills. You don't need to level all the class skills to be proficient playing that class.

TheShadowScout · January 2019

Grimm13 wrote: »

Class skills are nothing more than spells.

EXACTLY!
So it makes -sense- that they be mostly magica based!!! And magica influenced!

And as I said, some may be half-half... magic up some conjured weapon, then use your physical prowess to attack with it... and those generally get a stamina morph, which does make sense.

Grimm13 wrote: »

As such you have casters more adapt at casting by manipulating manna (magicka) or by sheer brute force (stamina).

...how many "Spells" can you "cast" through "brute force"???

Even those fighting animes that have martial arts master fighters throw fireballs and "kamehameha" energy blasts don't go that far as to say these fighters punch that magic effect into existence through sheer musclepower, but instead use some mystical energy to explain it (chi, ki, prana, psycic powers, metahuman abilities, whatever) that any balanced anime martial arts master also trains in, yes?
So all those wizard-warriors are basically hybrid characters (and don't I wish those were still viable in ESO?? Bring Back Softcaps!)

Face it, "brute force" is what people use to swing large axes and sharp swords, draw powerful bows and do other feats of physical prowess, all across pretty much -every- fantasy universe.
Warrior stuff! NOT wizard stuff!
Nowhere does the hero make fireballs appear by just flexing their glistening muscles! Nowhere does a cleric heal someones wounds by punching the pain away! Nowhere does someone conjure demons by bodybuilder poses. Nowhere does someone turn invisible by clenching their buttocks really hard!

PrinceShroob · January 2019

I really don't see an issue with it as it is now. I made a character, used the first three skill points to take the first skill in each class tree, and then walked from Seyda Neen to Vivec. The experience gained from doing that pushed the skills almost to the point where they could be morphed.

Sorcerer and dragonknight are the only classes with stamina morphs available where the first skill in a line does not have a stamina morph. Even then, dragonknights have a skill that can morph into a stamina skill available at level 4 of Ardent Flame. Until then, stamina characters can use the stamina skills from three DPS-oriented weapon skill lines.

validifyedneb18_ESO · January 2019

I wholeheartedly support a change to the morph system. Builds are so heavily restricted by stamina/magicka skills. Often a great ability is just out of reach because that morph makes it the wrong resource, or stamina builds are just locked out of a lot of their class abilities in general.

Also as a side note, would be nice if there was a move completely away from Stam/Mag being so hard locked in, it massively stifles build diversity and really only seems to exist because "skyrim has it and we need to appear like skyrim to get sales" back from the abysmal original version of the game we had at launch, that didn't have a clue what it wanted to be.

validifyedneb18_ESO · January 2019

PrinceShroob wrote: »

I really don't see an issue with it as it is now. I made a character, used the first three skill points to take the first skill in each class tree, and then walked from Seyda Neen to Vivec. The experience gained from doing that pushed the skills almost to the point where they could be morphed.

Sorcerer and dragonknight are the only classes with stamina morphs available where the first skill in a line does not have a stamina morph. Even then, dragonknights have a skill that can morph into a stamina skill available at level 4 of Ardent Flame. Until then, stamina characters can use the stamina skills from three DPS-oriented weapon skill lines.

I feel like you're not really considering the problems with this system with end-game builds, where 90% of the game happens....

kargen27 · January 2019

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

I wholeheartedly support a change to the morph system. Builds are so heavily restricted by stamina/magicka skills. Often a great ability is just out of reach because that morph makes it the wrong resource, or stamina builds are just locked out of a lot of their class abilities in general.

Also as a side note, would be nice if there was a move completely away from Stam/Mag being so hard locked in, it massively stifles build diversity and really only seems to exist because "skyrim has it and we need to appear like skyrim to get sales" back from the abysmal original version of the game we had at launch, that didn't have a clue what it wanted to be.

Sure they are locked out of class abilities if they are stam only. A hybrid can use the class skills though. Also remember magicka based characters are locked out of weapon skills the same way stamina is locked out of class skills. These limitations are what makes choosing stamina or magicka as your primary matter. The decision has consequences and it should.

validifyedneb18_ESO · January 2019

kargen27 wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

I wholeheartedly support a change to the morph system. Builds are so heavily restricted by stamina/magicka skills. Often a great ability is just out of reach because that morph makes it the wrong resource, or stamina builds are just locked out of a lot of their class abilities in general.

Also as a side note, would be nice if there was a move completely away from Stam/Mag being so hard locked in, it massively stifles build diversity and really only seems to exist because "skyrim has it and we need to appear like skyrim to get sales" back from the abysmal original version of the game we had at launch, that didn't have a clue what it wanted to be.

Sure they are locked out of class abilities if they are stam only. A hybrid can use the class skills though. Also remember magicka based characters are locked out of weapon skills the same way stamina is locked out of class skills. These limitations are what makes choosing stamina or magicka as your primary matter. The decision has consequences and it should.

Not a problem that for PVE Hybrids are more or less completely locked out of hard content? Or for PVP Hybrids are forced to use at-least 1 of a few key gear-sets, and have to make a bet that the additional build freedom they gain will be worth the cost to dealing more damage, heal more, or have another better gear set?

Dont get me wrong, the world you describe where hybrids are just as good as the meta of solid mag/stam builds, and build freedom is all the rage, but I just dont see what you describe in ESO atm. Noone does.

I also happen to think the the whole Stamina/Magicka design adds nothing to the game. It was an unintended consequence of having 2 resource pools and then later removing the soft capping that limited players from stacking 1 stat, allowing them to stack everything into a single stat, which because of the damage calculations resulted in the system you see today. For what? Why even have stamina? Because skyrim had it? The game wasnt designed to work like this, it just ended up this way.

dazee · January 2019

Yeah if hybrids were ACTUALLY still effective, this wouldn't be a problem but now everyone puts all their points in Stam or Magicka ONE or the OTHER. because the poor way its designed says that magic skills do more damage with higher max magicka and stam skills do more with higher max stamina, making the only effective choice to be to max out one, since you cant max both to anywhere near the same degree.

kargen27 · January 2019

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

I wholeheartedly support a change to the morph system. Builds are so heavily restricted by stamina/magicka skills. Often a great ability is just out of reach because that morph makes it the wrong resource, or stamina builds are just locked out of a lot of their class abilities in general.

Also as a side note, would be nice if there was a move completely away from Stam/Mag being so hard locked in, it massively stifles build diversity and really only seems to exist because "skyrim has it and we need to appear like skyrim to get sales" back from the abysmal original version of the game we had at launch, that didn't have a clue what it wanted to be.

Sure they are locked out of class abilities if they are stam only. A hybrid can use the class skills though. Also remember magicka based characters are locked out of weapon skills the same way stamina is locked out of class skills. These limitations are what makes choosing stamina or magicka as your primary matter. The decision has consequences and it should.

Not a problem that for PVE Hybrids are more or less completely locked out of hard content? Or for PVP Hybrids are forced to use at-least 1 of a few key gear-sets, and have to make a bet that the additional build freedom they gain will be worth the cost to dealing more damage, heal more, or have another better gear set?

Dont get me wrong, the world you describe where hybrids are just as good as the meta of solid mag/stam builds, and build freedom is all the rage, but I just dont see what you describe in ESO atm. Noone does.

I also happen to think the the whole Stamina/Magicka design adds nothing to the game. It was an unintended consequence of having 2 resource pools and then later removing the soft capping that limited players from stacking 1 stat, allowing them to stack everything into a single stat, which because of the damage calculations resulted in the system you see today. For what? Why even have stamina? Because skyrim had it? The game wasnt designed to work like this, it just ended up this way.

Nowhere did I say hybrids were as good or better than pure stamina or magicka. You read that into my words on your own. That being said there happens to be some really good hybrid tank builds that work very well in end game hard content. Hybrids are not locked out of any content. They are shunned by players looking to get on the leader boards. That is a small portion of the overall player base.

Getting back to the original topic what stamina/magicka does in the game is make the players decide a path then farther decide the steps they will take along that path. Why have stamina? Because it adds diversity to the game. It is actually that diversity the OP is complaining about.

What would getting rid of Stamina and Magicka fix?

validifyedneb18_ESO · January 2019

kargen27 wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

I wholeheartedly support a change to the morph system. Builds are so heavily restricted by stamina/magicka skills. Often a great ability is just out of reach because that morph makes it the wrong resource, or stamina builds are just locked out of a lot of their class abilities in general.

Also as a side note, would be nice if there was a move completely away from Stam/Mag being so hard locked in, it massively stifles build diversity and really only seems to exist because "skyrim has it and we need to appear like skyrim to get sales" back from the abysmal original version of the game we had at launch, that didn't have a clue what it wanted to be.

Sure they are locked out of class abilities if they are stam only. A hybrid can use the class skills though. Also remember magicka based characters are locked out of weapon skills the same way stamina is locked out of class skills. These limitations are what makes choosing stamina or magicka as your primary matter. The decision has consequences and it should.

Not a problem that for PVE Hybrids are more or less completely locked out of hard content? Or for PVP Hybrids are forced to use at-least 1 of a few key gear-sets, and have to make a bet that the additional build freedom they gain will be worth the cost to dealing more damage, heal more, or have another better gear set?

Dont get me wrong, the world you describe where hybrids are just as good as the meta of solid mag/stam builds, and build freedom is all the rage, but I just dont see what you describe in ESO atm. Noone does.

I also happen to think the the whole Stamina/Magicka design adds nothing to the game. It was an unintended consequence of having 2 resource pools and then later removing the soft capping that limited players from stacking 1 stat, allowing them to stack everything into a single stat, which because of the damage calculations resulted in the system you see today. For what? Why even have stamina? Because skyrim had it? The game wasnt designed to work like this, it just ended up this way.

Nowhere did I say hybrids were as good or better than pure stamina or magicka. You read that into my words on your own. That being said there happens to be some really good hybrid tank builds that work very well in end game hard content. Hybrids are not locked out of any content. They are shunned by players looking to get on the leader boards. That is a small portion of the overall player base.

Getting back to the original topic what stamina/magicka does in the game is make the players decide a path then farther decide the steps they will take along that path. Why have stamina? Because it adds diversity to the game. It is actually that diversity the OP is complaining about.

What would getting rid of Stamina and Magicka fix?

Nono, but you said how if you wanted to bridge the gap and use two abilities that scaled from different stats you could use a hybrid. But thats not reaaaallly a viable option, is it?

Stamina adds nothing. It adds a resource that Zeni have to be careful about tweaking because it combos as a sprint/roll/bash/block/ccbreaker and damage dealing resource. It adds an element of building your character where. if you really want to maximise things, the choice of your race determines one of two paths you can go down. it adds a 2tier balancing issue creating twice the work for zeni. It hard line, on either side of which you can place every ability in the game, and you never use an ability from the other side.

Its a build diversity destroyer, a balancing nightmare, a hard lock on character builds simply because of the original racial choice.

And it adds what? "Build diversity?" So rather than 5 classes we have 10? How about a warden where I get to be a badass with a bow but also get to use my fav heal, Living trellis, or what if I decide I want to try the light attack damage increase from Bound Armaments with a flame build? What if I want to tank with a ice staff but need those stamina abilities? What if I want to duel wield on my High Elf? Try some magicka heals on my Redguard?

What does having 2 resources ADD? We used to only have hybrids, what 2 resources ultimately added as a hard line between those builds, and any build that crossed that line in anyway was dead from that point onwards.

"Diversity" - give me a break

kargen27 · January 2019

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

I wholeheartedly support a change to the morph system. Builds are so heavily restricted by stamina/magicka skills. Often a great ability is just out of reach because that morph makes it the wrong resource, or stamina builds are just locked out of a lot of their class abilities in general.

Also as a side note, would be nice if there was a move completely away from Stam/Mag being so hard locked in, it massively stifles build diversity and really only seems to exist because "skyrim has it and we need to appear like skyrim to get sales" back from the abysmal original version of the game we had at launch, that didn't have a clue what it wanted to be.

Sure they are locked out of class abilities if they are stam only. A hybrid can use the class skills though. Also remember magicka based characters are locked out of weapon skills the same way stamina is locked out of class skills. These limitations are what makes choosing stamina or magicka as your primary matter. The decision has consequences and it should.

Not a problem that for PVE Hybrids are more or less completely locked out of hard content? Or for PVP Hybrids are forced to use at-least 1 of a few key gear-sets, and have to make a bet that the additional build freedom they gain will be worth the cost to dealing more damage, heal more, or have another better gear set?

Dont get me wrong, the world you describe where hybrids are just as good as the meta of solid mag/stam builds, and build freedom is all the rage, but I just dont see what you describe in ESO atm. Noone does.

I also happen to think the the whole Stamina/Magicka design adds nothing to the game. It was an unintended consequence of having 2 resource pools and then later removing the soft capping that limited players from stacking 1 stat, allowing them to stack everything into a single stat, which because of the damage calculations resulted in the system you see today. For what? Why even have stamina? Because skyrim had it? The game wasnt designed to work like this, it just ended up this way.

Nowhere did I say hybrids were as good or better than pure stamina or magicka. You read that into my words on your own. That being said there happens to be some really good hybrid tank builds that work very well in end game hard content. Hybrids are not locked out of any content. They are shunned by players looking to get on the leader boards. That is a small portion of the overall player base.

Getting back to the original topic what stamina/magicka does in the game is make the players decide a path then farther decide the steps they will take along that path. Why have stamina? Because it adds diversity to the game. It is actually that diversity the OP is complaining about.

What would getting rid of Stamina and Magicka fix?

Nono, but you said how if you wanted to bridge the gap and use two abilities that scaled from different stats you could use a hybrid. But thats not reaaaallly a viable option, is it?

Stamina adds nothing. It adds a resource that Zeni have to be careful about tweaking because it combos as a sprint/roll/bash/block/ccbreaker and damage dealing resource. It adds an element of building your character where. if you really want to maximise things, the choice of your race determines one of two paths you can go down. it adds a 2tier balancing issue creating twice the work for zeni. It hard line, on either side of which you can place every ability in the game, and you never use an ability from the other side.

Its a build diversity destroyer, a balancing nightmare, a hard lock on character builds simply because of the original racial choice.

And it adds what? "Build diversity?" So rather than 5 classes we have 10? How about a warden where I get to be a badass with a bow but also get to use my fav heal, Living trellis, or what if I decide I want to try the light attack damage increase from Bound Armaments with a flame build? What if I want to tank with a ice staff but need those stamina abilities? What if I want to duel wield on my High Elf? Try some magicka heals on my Redguard?

What does having 2 resources ADD? We used to only have hybrids, what 2 resources ultimately added as a hard line between those builds, and any build that crossed that line in anyway was dead from that point onwards.

"Diversity" - give me a break

Hybrid is absolutely a viable option and many players take that option. Not everybody is a min/max player. That you do not want to play a hybrid doesn't mean the option isn't viable for others. And as I stated above a hybrid tank does very well.

" And it adds what? "Build diversity?" So rather than 5 classes we have 10? How about a warden where I get to be a badass with a bow but also get to use my fav heal, Living trellis, or what if I decide I want to try the light attack damage increase from Bound Armaments with a flame build? What if I want to tank with a ice staff but need those stamina abilities? What if I want to duel wield on my High Elf? Try some magicka heals on my Redguard?"

Then what you want is that hybrid build. The game is play as you want but nobody promised every play style would be as strong as every other play style.

And if there was no stamina/magicka you still have the same problem. Elite groups (and let's face it you are talking elite with your arguments) are still going to have the one or two builds they require to run with them.

Choices do not destroy diversity. We have a few races to choose from and a few classes to choose from. You then build your character around those choices. Part of that build is based on the choices you've already made and others are made based on what you want to do in the game.

The OP is wanting Stamina and Magicka builds to be the same because all skills would morph to both. That takes away diversity. You want to do away with Stamina and Magicka which would be the same thing really just without pretending that there still is a difference. Your idea offers no improvement over what we have now and farther limits creative game play.