Perma-rooting has got to go.

wheem_ESO · January 2019

It can get quite absurd in some Battlegrounds, leaving one unable to move or reliably change facing for most of the time spent in combat. I'm sure most people are going to focus on "Frost Wardens" (when they should be talking about Ice Staves in general, as it's not a Warden-specific issue), but Ice Staves aren't the only source of the problem. Sorcerers and DKs can also pretty much spam roots with no cooldown or diminishing returns, and are even able to layer those abilities on top of the aforementioned Ice Staves.

I think the best way to handle things, broadly speaking, is to treat roots like hard CC that's on a separate timer, while simultaneously nerfing their current duration + counters to them. Ideally, roots would be worth using against all types of opponents, but not allow someone to be completely locked down for an extended fight. If there are just straight nerfs to roots, while nothing is done insofar as counters are concerned, I think we'd end up in a situation where they'd be worthless against Stamina builds, while potentially still too good vs Magicka (via heavily pressuring their Stam pool, or forcing all the drawbacks of using Mist Form).

One person using Wall of Frost with a non-charged staff is probably fine, but when multiple walls from multiple teams are layered on top of each other, along with some Encase, Frost Clench/Reach, and Talons spam, it gets quite silly.

Vapirko · January 2019

This is already a well documented issue, the thing is ZOS does not have a track record of going back on their nerfs (in this case mobility). So we have to hope that they move forward with offering buffs to shuffle (around .8 second per medium piece would be a good place to start), and then looking at magicka mobility. Im not well versed enough in Magicka to really say where/if mobility needs to be implemented because it could easily become impossible to catch up to ranged players, and I've heard good players say there really isnt a need to buff magicka mobility, while many others of course say that it needs to happen. Snare removal should be an option for everyone though, the question is how do you implement it for magicka without it becoming to good since they already have ranged play and what skill do you attach it to beyond mistform or DK wings? Or, alternatively, should we see snares greatly reduced or removed from most skills seeing as how they're very strong currently, in fact most of PvP revolves around them. There are entire groups of just tanks that rely solely on snares, major defile and permafrost ultimate dumps to do all of their work and they are completely useless otherwise but very effective against most players because most people simply cannot out heal and dishing out enough damage to take down the tanky builds is similarly difficult for them. Theres a lot of moving parts here and its going to require what ZOS has never had to fix it, a careful and thoughtful, incremental approach.

frostz417 · January 2019

Needs to be a root cooldown honestly. Either that or more access to snare and root immunity, it’s pathetic how everyone just runs root builds that require no skill and offer almost no counter play

Baconlad · January 2019

I think dodge rolling should give atleat 4 second immunity to roots.

And snares just need to be removed...

Savos_Saren · January 2019

If you nerf an mDK or MagDen’s ability to root an enemy (they rely on roots and snares to wittle their opponent down)- I hope you plan on giving them an execute.

CaliMade · January 2019

Savos_Saren wrote: »

If you nerf an mDK or MagDen’s ability to root an enemy (they rely on roots and snares to wittle their opponent down)- I hope you plan on giving them an execute.

idk about warden but Dks can get by just fine without casting talons every 2seconds

I actually have given up fossilize for shattering rocks since its change and get kills just fine.

As a MagDk main, NO, magdks dont need an execute.That would be extremely overpowered with their current kit, roots or not.

Savos_Saren · January 2019

CaliMade wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

If you nerf an mDK or MagDen’s ability to root an enemy (they rely on roots and snares to wittle their opponent down)- I hope you plan on giving them an execute.

idk about warden but Dks can get by just fine without casting talons every 2seconds

I actually have given up fossilize for shattering rocks since its change and get kills just fine.

As a MagDk main, NO, magdks dont need an execute.That would be extremely overpowered with their current kit, roots or not.

Do you not defend keeps from enemy zergs? As a DK tank- I stand under the front flag and CC the onslaught so that oils and seige can attempt to whittle them down. You are constantly casting talons- not using fossilize.

...or are we only one-track minded for battlegrounds? AvA existed long before BGs and 1v1 shouldn’t be the main focus either. Think about a DK’s role in AvA and PVE.

CaliMade · January 2019

this isn’t about just battlegrounds, roots and snares are too common in Cyrodiil also. I also dont think you should be able to stand in a breach and spam one ability to stop a group of players.

I personally think every class, stam or mag, should have access to snare and root immunity 2-3 seconds max. And the Devs need to go thru and instead of nerfing snares just remove snares from certain abilities in general.

MalagenR · January 2019

CaliMade wrote: »

this isn’t about just battlegrounds, roots and snares are too common in Cyrodiil also. I also dont think you should be able to stand in a breach and spam one ability to stop a group of players.

I personally think every class, stam or mag, should have access to snare and root immunity 2-3 seconds max. And the Devs need to go thru and instead of nerfing snares just remove snares from certain abilities in general.

All of this complaining about snares is not legit. 99% of stamina players are not running gap closers because of the nerfs to shields and sustain against mag players has allowed them to go full on heavy dmg or med sustain and not have to sacrifice anything except mobility for ridiculous burst.

the downside is that you get snared / rooted constantly

Switch to Medium and run more stam regen if your heavy armor burst build is getting locked up, that's the entire freaking point.

MalagenR · January 2019

frostz417 wrote: »

Needs to be a root cooldown honestly. Either that or more access to snare and root immunity, it’s pathetic how everyone just runs root builds that require no skill and offer almost no counter play

LOL WHAT NO COUNTER PLAY? RUN A GAP CLOSER!

CaliMade · January 2019

MalagenR wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

this isn’t about just battlegrounds, roots and snares are too common in Cyrodiil also. I also dont think you should be able to stand in a breach and spam one ability to stop a group of players.

I personally think every class, stam or mag, should have access to snare and root immunity 2-3 seconds max. And the Devs need to go thru and instead of nerfing snares just remove snares from certain abilities in general.

All of this complaining about snares is not legit. 99% of stamina players are not running gap closers because of the nerfs to shields and sustain against mag players has allowed them to go full on heavy dmg or med sustain and not have to sacrifice anything except mobility for ridiculous burst.

the downside is that you get snared / rooted constantly

Switch to Medium and run more stam regen if your heavy armor burst build is getting locked up, that's the entire freaking point.

yeah ill be sure to slot shuffle on my magplar
mag warden nd sorc

ccmedaddy · January 2019

Baconlad wrote: »

I think dodge rolling should give atleat 4 second immunity to roots.

This would mostly benefit stamina characters who already have access to snare/root immunity. Seems kinda unnecessary.

IMO root/snare spammers would be made a lot weaker if magicka classes were given snare immunity, like how they added it to DK's wings.

Skoomah · January 2019

Bring a healer? Run a purge / cleanse? Add some range damage to your kit? Stay out of the ice? Put more into regen so you have the resources to get out of the root?

Learn to play????????

Good offense requires combos.

Good defense should require combos too. Not just one button heal to full.

The same people that whined about speed are whining about snares. You create the meta and then you cry about the new meta you create...

SkysOutThizeOut · January 2019

@MalagenR I think you are right. And right now I think we are in the most balanced gameplay we have seen since pre-cwc. Sounds like most of these players haven’t learned how to adapt.

Roots and snares need to be tuned down slightly or speed turned up, but I don’t think this requires the attention that “sloadocalypse” did.

@CaliMade you have wings. If you run hybrid you could have shuffle too or forward momentum. Immobilize pots are awesome. So are escapist poisons. I can generally escape the cc cluster in bgs, especially when I see the staffs coming.

And talons is so expensive. Most of the time people are immune when you use talons so it was basically 4K down the drain. High cost, high reward. You should be complaining about time stop. Huge placeable aoe slow into stun...

Skoomah · January 2019

ZOS always changes the game based on the meta whining on the forums. Emboldens the learn to play crowd so hard...

Bfish22090 · January 2019

i play battlegrounds and this guy trance always play a mag warden and perma roots people.
hes so op wtf plz nerf

TimeDazzler · January 2019

ALL snares need to be standardized, I don't care if it's a normal ability or an ultimate, standardize them. Minor snare = 15%, Major Snare = 30%. Major expedition on abilities was standardized to 4 seconds for no reason, should have been brought up to 8s on all of them. Channeled acceleration should be brought up to 15s and the self-snare while casting removed. Immobilizes were never a problem when people had speed during the swift meta. Only thing I can agree with is that the dodge roll immunity to immobilizes should be increased, but then magicka players would complain.

Nutshotz · January 2019

If imov pots actually worked and they brought the timer up to 18 seconds instead of what it's at now, both Stam and Magicka users would be a lot better.

Now I know I'm gonna get hate for this cuz people are gonna say well you have access to that skills as a Magicka user well you're right I do but shuffle on us is hard to run when your not at a minimum of 12-16k Stam. So why not make it that imov pots only work for Magicka users? Just an idea.

Yes running efficient purge on a mag class in my eyes is required but that's still a huge chunk of Magicka at a time vs shuffle which is Dodge chance over xyz seconds.

Do somethings need to be reworked for CC's yes. Removed no. In all reality they just need to fix them and we get on our knees and pray the sht works correctly.

MalagenR · January 2019

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

@MalagenR I think you are right. And right now I think we are in the most balanced gameplay we have seen since pre-cwc. Sounds like most of these players haven’t learned how to adapt.

Roots and snares need to be tuned down slightly or speed turned up, but I don’t think this requires the attention that “sloadocalypse” did.

@CaliMade you have wings. If you run hybrid you could have shuffle too or forward momentum. Immobilize pots are awesome. So are escapist poisons. I can generally escape the cc cluster in bgs, especially when I see the staffs coming.

And talons is so expensive. Most of the time people are immune when you use talons so it was basically 4K down the drain. High cost, high reward. You should be complaining about time stop. Huge placeable aoe slow into stun...

I think it's crazy to ask for snare immunity when we already get such a long stun immunity. None of the game is designed around providing snare immunity and entering it into the equation now at this point in the game is a big mistake.

There are significant downsides to running a frost staff instead of fire or lightning - the downside needs to be offset by a powerful upside. The powerful upside is roots / snares. You almost HAVE to run a frost enchant to get the roots on blockade, and blockade you can easily move out of making the skill cast a total waste of magicka if it doesn't apply a root / snare to players.

So, if you get rid of it, Jesus, no thought at all. These complaints are starting to mirror all complaints in MMO's, FPS gamer generation want everything nerfed if they die to it because it requires a group to counter, this is exactly the difference between MMO PVP and FPS PVP - and more and more FPS players are trying to force developers to make MMO's single player shooters where all classes / races in the MMO play exactly the same and everything is based on "ability to target and hand / eye speed coordation" which is what they define as skill.

They want to be able to log-in and play team deathmatch until the game dies and they move onto the next MMO, it's becoming a serious problem in the industry as a whole in my opinion.

ChunkyCat · January 2019

Reasonable fixes:

Minor Snare

Major Snare

CC immunity includes root immunity

Seems like a pretty simple issue to implement, but wadda I know....

MalagenR · January 2019

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Reasonable fixes:

Minor Snare

Major Snare

CC immunity includes root immunity

Seems like a pretty simple issue to implement, but wadda I know....

That's exactly right, you probably don't know anything about game design / development. You can't include roots / snares with immunity timers unless you put a timer on gap closing skills.

Minor / Major snare is totally reasonable.

ChunkyCat · January 2019

MalagenR wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Reasonable fixes:

Minor Snare

Major Snare

CC immunity includes root immunity

Seems like a pretty simple issue to implement, but wadda I know....

That's exactly right, you probably don't know anything about game design / development. You can't include roots / snares with immunity timers....

You’re right. It can’t be done. It’s impossible. Nope. Can’t do it.

We can put a man on the moon but coding a video game, nope. That’s just crazy talk.

sharquez · January 2019

Friendly reminder that retreating maneuvers exists and gives immunity to all snares and roots. Support skills are underrated
undervalued tools and that pvp is team based and you should not be hesitate to coordinate and lean on your team mates to cover niches your build is unable to fill.

Another friendly reminder, use of proc-sets is has been and always will be a valid playstyle and is here to stay. Assigning values of morality and honor to a video game ensemble is ridiculous. If that makes you upset you need to reevaluate your emotional investment priorities.

Unfriendly reminder. Nerf threads are pure salt. Everybody dies. If you are dying a lot to something, avoid that thing or fix your build, because that is what is within your power. Constant nerf lobbying is largely going to be ignored. That's not to say constructive feed back isn't important, but I'm pretty sure no stock is put into the claims of the umpteenth screeching reeee thread written in barely legible pidgin. Not saying that's what this thread is, I just thought I'd put that out there.

Waffennacht · January 2019

FM
Shuffle (medium only)
Roll Dodge provides 2 sec of root immunity (except root poisons which I think is bugged)
Wings/Cloak/Extended Ritual/Streak (sorry DK and warden, but empowered chains and passive snare resistance)
Be a Tank and Stand in it like a Boss
Immov potion/poisons

You do have options

Reverb · January 2019

Instead of nerfing anything, I think the better way to level the playing field is to give a magic based snare/root immunity. Purge will remove roots (maybe, not if you have 5 dots on you that get cleansed instead) but doesn’t grant immunity, leaving you open to being rooted again immediately.

Both of the options for root immunity are stamina skills. Give mana variants of Forward Momentum and Retreating Maneuver.

Edit - didn’t notice that autocorrect changed ‘nerfing’ to ‘beefing’. Although funny, it did not convey my meaning very well

Bashev · January 2019

The root from frost wall is the biggest issue as it is basically free.

MalagenR · January 2019

ChunkyCat wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Reasonable fixes:

Minor Snare

Major Snare

CC immunity includes root immunity

Seems like a pretty simple issue to implement, but wadda I know....

That's exactly right, you probably don't know anything about game design / development. You can't include roots / snares with immunity timers....

You’re right. It can’t be done. It’s impossible. Nope. Can’t do it.

We can put a man on the moon but coding a video game, nope. That’s just crazy talk.

You went from claiming something should be simple to claiming it can be done. Completely off base. Your comment makes no sense and betrays your actual intelligence level.

Skoomah · January 2019

Silence! ChunkyCat is a god!

teladoy · January 2019

In other words, those people that play nightblades or stamina builds that like to roll and roll, one shot and rush everybody in their way, they want please to do it without interferences. Please ZOS make their life easy, you don't see they can not one shot more than one or two Players and disappear without problems?

Arkangeloski · January 2019

ChunkyCat wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Reasonable fixes:

Minor Snare

Major Snare

CC immunity includes root immunity

Seems like a pretty simple issue to implement, but wadda I know....

That's exactly right, you probably don't know anything about game design / development. You can't include roots / snares with immunity timers....

You’re right. It can’t be done. It’s impossible. Nope. Can’t do it.

We can put a man on the moon but coding a video game, nope. That’s just crazy talk.

Wait what? There was a person in the moon?

Waffennacht · January 2019

Arkangeloski wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Reasonable fixes:

Minor Snare

Major Snare

CC immunity includes root immunity

Seems like a pretty simple issue to implement, but wadda I know....

That's exactly right, you probably don't know anything about game design / development. You can't include roots / snares with immunity timers....

You’re right. It can’t be done. It’s impossible. Nope. Can’t do it.

We can put a man on the moon but coding a video game, nope. That’s just crazy talk.

Wait what? There was a person in the moon?

How deep does one have to go to be considered "in" ?