Elitism vs. Enjoying the game

Kikke · January 2019

Raudgrani wrote: »

idk wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

idk wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

I never understood people who thinks you need to use poorly optimize gear and derp+die all the time, to have fun

It can be hilarious ofc, if you do it with the right company. But than it's about the company and the banter. If you used better gear and didn't die all the time, you'd probably still have fun and enjoy the experience.

Reason it's fun(for a veteran) to put on newbie gear and play aimlessly, is because it's a new and fresh experience. If you did it everyday for a week, you probably wouldn't feel it was the funniest experience you had in a "looong time". Stuff gets old pretty fast.

But I also enjoy doing it to once in a while, just roaming the world on a character that's far from optimized and see what happens. It's really relaxing, pretty immersive and far from normal gameplay where you feel forced to complete x things everyday.

You misunderstand everything. Asking an cp160 to get ravager and vma weapons is pretty idiotic.

So you want to fly from Fargo to Anchorage, you obviously use your private jet, don't understand the issue.
You might have to land and refuel if you has an wimpy Learjet like the other noobs.
For long flight like LA to London you might benefit of an first class or even slum in business class as it speed thing up but then you don't have your plane in London.
Yes it was a bit more useful than your post.

Maybe I missed something but this analogy has to be the most absurd I have seen in a long time. Somehow suggesting this pointless statement is more useful that one that actually has to do with the game kicks it up a notch from there.

I do not understand how this thread is even still alive. It merely seems that a player suggested a different set. A goal maybe. It is healthy for guild members to make a suggestion.

In fact, in a healthy guild players help others all the time. Players make comments and other players make suggestions in reply to those comments. Heck, players even have discussions on the subject.

I can say for a fact it happens in solid raid guilds constantly and I have seen it in healthy casual guilds. So go fly to neverland if you wish but the analogies above server no purpose.

Point is that telling an cp160 to get trial / vMA gear is just showing how cool you think you are. Not trying to be useful in any way, rater the opposite as he tries vMA and give up.
You recommend an crafted and an cheap overland set, then some easy to get monster sets.

And be a bit careful about listening to guild members, they can be good players but they might also not understand other builds, permablockig on last boss in Direfrost keep don't work well for magic builds
No they did not know about the boss healing effect so not so good after all but sounded like they knew it all.

It appears much is being read into what OP has stated. In fact it could very well be OP has over reacted to begin with. After all we only have half the story with likely a lot of context left out and a pretty lame story at that. If you think about it, what is the real purpose behind creating this thread to begin with? Exactly.

Yes, if someone that is new to the game mentioned a gear set to me I will ask the purpose and suggest something better. After all why be quiet and let them remain ignorant for awhile. A great many in a social guild I am in want to get the gear, they want to do trials. They do not want to be an ignorant player because someone kept their thoughts to themselves. Of course I do not know the type of guild OP is in and it could just be that type of guild. I was in a guild at launch where leadership created an environment that encouraged gearing badly.

Well, I'm not a calculating psychopath, so not everything I do have exact purposes. What instigated this post, was seeing a new player going like "Horray! Lvl 160, finally - can someone craft me...". He just wanted some new full level gear to go with having a "real" character, finally. He didn't ask for any "bis"/meta vet trial setup. But this was like the only thing I saw people suggest, it was quite literally "Go farm AY/Relequen or go home!".
This dude still has so much to see and experience in the game, and it's a shame people even suggest such a new player to go hardcore farming trial sets. It's stupid at best.

I also shared with you my own very recent experience, making an old PVP tank an "adventurer" instead, with whom I intend to do a lot of solo PVE content ahead. His damage isn't the best in the world (did 29k in all but weapons purple yesterday, I do 40k with my other PVE characters), but I'm still fine tuning it for being a quite tanky and stubborn solo adventurer. Not only solo though, even did vet Scalecaller and Falkreath last night with it; with a magsorc "offhealer", a roughly 350 all wrongly loaded out StamDK (he is hopeless and don't listen...), and a really good tank. Not a flawless "no death run" by any means, but I honestly think I did better than I would ("death wise") on my more dedicated DD stamwarden and stamblade, with such a ragged rickety oddball group.
I've also set a goal to kill every single worldboss solo with this one, and no - I would NOT be able of doing all of them with my "better" toons (they need pampering when there's no tank), I'm not that good. And it's all loads of fun, running around with a total abomination of a "mongrel dog DD" doing everything.
I highly suggest - and hope - people are not afraid to try stuff like that. It's sad that especially new players are very susceptible to such a jargon; they want to learn the game and listen to all that. There's no trial and error on their road (anymore). They are all cookie cutter guys now, or they even get demotivated and leave because they can't get what they "need to play the game". It doesn't have to be like that. You don't necessarily have to "endure" weeks of farming to finally enjoy the game. Games are meant to be fun.

And what you did not see was the whispers from elites that helped him.

Elitism is an abusive word with wrong implications. He was a victim of avrage joe players and not elites.

Wildberryjack · January 2019

To me Elitism is when one player insults and talks down to others they feel aren't as good as them at playing the game. Unfortunately a lot of players are like this. Not all of us are going for a Vet Trial build, we just want to have fun. Some advice isn't bad but calling someone stupid or a noob because they don't have the cookie cutter meta build is out of line.

zaria · January 2019

idk wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

idk wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

I never understood people who thinks you need to use poorly optimize gear and derp+die all the time, to have fun

It can be hilarious ofc, if you do it with the right company. But than it's about the company and the banter. If you used better gear and didn't die all the time, you'd probably still have fun and enjoy the experience.

Reason it's fun(for a veteran) to put on newbie gear and play aimlessly, is because it's a new and fresh experience. If you did it everyday for a week, you probably wouldn't feel it was the funniest experience you had in a "looong time". Stuff gets old pretty fast.

But I also enjoy doing it to once in a while, just roaming the world on a character that's far from optimized and see what happens. It's really relaxing, pretty immersive and far from normal gameplay where you feel forced to complete x things everyday.

You misunderstand everything. Asking an cp160 to get ravager and vma weapons is pretty idiotic.

So you want to fly from Fargo to Anchorage, you obviously use your private jet, don't understand the issue.
You might have to land and refuel if you has an wimpy Learjet like the other noobs.
For long flight like LA to London you might benefit of an first class or even slum in business class as it speed thing up but then you don't have your plane in London.
Yes it was a bit more useful than your post.

Maybe I missed something but this analogy has to be the most absurd I have seen in a long time. Somehow suggesting this pointless statement is more useful that one that actually has to do with the game kicks it up a notch from there.

I do not understand how this thread is even still alive. It merely seems that a player suggested a different set. A goal maybe. It is healthy for guild members to make a suggestion.

In fact, in a healthy guild players help others all the time. Players make comments and other players make suggestions in reply to those comments. Heck, players even have discussions on the subject.

I can say for a fact it happens in solid raid guilds constantly and I have seen it in healthy casual guilds. So go fly to neverland if you wish but the analogies above server no purpose.

Point is that telling an cp160 to get trial / vMA gear is just showing how cool you think you are. Not trying to be useful in any way, rater the opposite as he tries vMA and give up.
You recommend an crafted and an cheap overland set, then some easy to get monster sets.

And be a bit careful about listening to guild members, they can be good players but they might also not understand other builds, permablockig on last boss in Direfrost keep don't work well for magic builds
No they did not know about the boss healing effect so not so good after all but sounded like they knew it all.

It appears much is being read into what OP has stated. In fact it could very well be OP has over reacted to begin with. After all we only have half the story with likely a lot of context left out and a pretty lame story at that. If you think about it, what is the real purpose behind creating this thread to begin with? Exactly.

Yes, if someone that is new to the game mentioned a gear set to me I will ask the purpose and suggest something better. After all why be quiet and let them remain ignorant for awhile. A great many in a social guild I am in want to get the gear, they want to do trials. They do not want to be an ignorant player because someone kept their thoughts to themselves. Of course I do not know the type of guild OP is in and it could just be that type of guild. I was in a guild at launch where leadership created an environment that encouraged gearing badly.

Yes, I probably read to much into it.
Players who has played for an long time tend to pile up gear and you obviously uses the best.

An new cp160 is not in that setting, and if he is lucky he has two cp100 crafted sets.
So you want hurdling / julianos and an cheap overland sett, gold out the weapons as soon you can afford it as they will stay with you for some time. Now you can think about an monster set, you might also want to replace the overland one.
Later the crafted as weapons tend to be an pain to get. it might also be an idea to go for sets who are not exactly top tire as they are easier to get.

GreenhaloX · January 2019

Nahh.. elitism is just a bad and negative persona; someone with a holier than thou, I'm better than you, my shitt doesn't stink type attitude. It is so humorous how some peeps can portray such crap; especially in a video game that is suppose to be for entertainment. As for elite, it's all perspective. Hey, it's cool if anyone thinks the likes of Alcast and the other youtube ESO warriors or those that can clear world's first this and that on ESO are elite. To me, there isn't anything elite about ESO and video games. Sure, they are good players that have put in a lot of dedication and efforts and have been playing ESO for years. So, yes, they have gained a lot of knowledge of the game and gotten very good at it. Well, it's the same as anything else you do. When you put in the efforts, practice, dedication and repeatedly doing it, you will eventually excel at it.

To me, elite are the likes of our Special Forces, Navy Seals, Marine Recons, Air Force's PJ; the brutal and excruciating lengthy training they have to endure and pass, and then the more extreme craziness of real live action combats abroad. Now, that's real elite, and I can assure you many of them aren't good in video games. Ha ha. As for elitism in ESO, please.. facepalm, whatever. I enjoy the game and play it my way; my build, my selections of weapon, armor and skillsets. It's what allows me to enjoy the game.

Kuramas9tails · January 2019

Meh. With new players I just craft them sets they can wear and use now so they get use to a build/rotation and then if they want to take it further, they can grind.

Thannazzar · January 2019

Best advice for a new player is find a build that you enjoy playing and can get good at.

Doesn't have to be meta or BiS.

Using a single stat build with 10 points in health for survivability and using a gear and ability setup that you understand and can achieve good dps on is far less frustrating than a net build that requires you gear from the most difficult content and have the bar swapping and button pressing reflexes of a mongoose on anfetamines.

Bottomline is its a game not a job, and as long as you can play to your strengths and still have fun most players will be happy to pug with you. The end game gear and achievement rewards for vet DLC hm and trials aren't very impressive or required sufficiently to justify the grind anyway.

Kikke · January 2019

Why do you have to treat a game as a job to become good? I play a game, but I still want to be able to do all content including the no-death, speedrun hardmode achivements. Its not a job, I do it for fun. Its my hobby, not my work as I earn Zero on my hobby... This mentality that achiving something in your hobby is a job, then you dont understand hobbies.

DjMuscleboy02 · January 2019

First and foremost, this is a video game and no one should let the opinions of others influence or dictate their own enjoyment.

With that being said, it's also a multiplayer game which requires teamwork in a lot of instances. But here's the thing, there is literally 0 solo content in the game that you need to have any gear from group content to complete. The hardest solo content, vma, is very easily doable with crafted/purchased gear; yes even for a first complete. While gear from group content may be "best in slot" (Yes there is a best in slot for everything and everyone and it doesn't change from person to person, but we won't get into that because it's indisputable,) it simply makes things easier or more optimal when you have group members supporting you. For example, Spriggans and Hundings with a 2 piece weapon damage helmet and shoulders will do you just fine in solo content on a stamina build vs it's "BIS" counterpart for the same generic situation: Twice Fang and Advancing Yokeda with Velidreth/Kragh. My point here is that group content is not absolutely necessary should you choose to not do it. Therefore farming this gear is not necessary. In my opinion, I wouldn't even tell someone to farm it unless they are over 700 cp as they (most likely) won't be in a position to a) farm it easily or b) use it effectively until around then anyway.

Typically I don't agree with a lot of what @Tasear says, but one thing I think we both agree on is that "the elite" and "elitists" are not the same. "The Elite", in my opinion are, those who have an excellent understanding of the game and it's mechanics as well as vast experience completing content. An "Elitist", in my opinion, is someone who may (but not necessarily) be an elite player but has a poor attitude and may act as described in OP. Not every elite player is an Elitist and not every Elitist is an elite player. In fact, I would argue that a majority of elite players are not Elitist and that a majority of Elitist's are not elite players.

This is where I have a problem with a majority of players with the "run what I want" mentality. Again, I encourage everyone to play how they enjoy the game as that's your right. However, it is not your right to infringe upon other players enjoyment in the benefit of your own. For example, I may enjoy running non-meta armor sets and not using abilities because I enjoy a skyrim style gameplay. That's absolutely fine for me to do by myself, but if I venture into group content then I should adjust my gameplay as such. It's one thing to RP as a one-handed orc while doing quests, but it's something different entirely to bring your one-handed orc into Cradle of Shadows and just light attack spam everything. If you want to run non-meta sets, that's fine. But at least alter your gameplay to make an attempt to contribute to the group or just don't do group content.

And here enters another issue I've seen arrise, "I only want to do group content for achievements but I don't want to change how I play because I won't have fun." My response to this is simple. If not playing "how you want" causes you to not have fun and group content requires you to play differently than "how you want" then it stands to reason that getting these achievements requires you to play differently than "how you want." Therefore you should not do it. Group content remains group content whether you want to do it or not. If you manage to get 3 people who will play with you to get these achievements, then go for it, have all the fun you want. But you can't expect to queue into dungeons "playing your way" without having people say something about it if it's affecting them. ( @Kikke should read this portion.)

Quite honestly, I suggest everyone at least learn a basic rotation for whatever class they play. That way, should you need to do group content, you can do a basic rotation and no matter what you wear you can at least contribute well enough. Anyone on a stamina build can simply put down endless hail, caltrops, and poison injection then front bar use uppercut, surprise attack, acid spray, snipe, shrouded dagger, etc to their hearts desire and still do ~20k DPS single target. Just try to remember that you're not the only person playing and that your enjoyment of the game does not trump the enjoyment of others. And communication goes a long way, if you simply say something in chat then a lot of the time people will most likely be much more patient with you. But when you run around light attacking, dying, not communicating, etc you get kicked from the dungeon; and it's not just because they are Elitists who hate on your playstyle, it's because you're an uncooperative person and a detriment to the group.

Raudgrani · January 2019

Wildberryjack wrote: »

To me Elitism is when one player insults and talks down to others they feel aren't as good as them at playing the game. Unfortunately a lot of players are like this. Not all of us are going for a Vet Trial build, we just want to have fun. Some advice isn't bad but calling someone stupid or a noob because they don't have the cookie cutter meta build is out of line.

Yes it is. But it's also part of the "any DLC dungeon is EZ" (actual quote) mentality. Why people wan't to degrade themselves by saying any content is easy (so that they can do it?) is literally pissing in the face of those who can't. I mean, if someone can't do something which is easy, what does it make them? That is insulting everyone else, it can't be interpreted in any other way.

And there's - still - a huge difference between "giving advice" and what we speak of. When you're a trainer in gymnastics, you don't say like "There are the shoes you need, they must be tailor made and costs $3k, and then go do a triple saltomortal with sidespin, I have a video of if you can watch before doing it. It's really easy, any *** can pull that off as long as they know how to do it".

Tasear · January 2019

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

First and foremost, this is a video game and no one should let the opinions of others influence or dictate their own enjoyment.

With that being said, it's also a multiplayer game which requires teamwork in a lot of instances. But here's the thing, there is literally 0 solo content in the game that you need to have any gear from group content to complete. The hardest solo content, vma, is very easily doable with crafted/purchased gear; yes even for a first complete. While gear from group content may be "best in slot" (Yes there is a best in slot for everything and everyone and it doesn't change from person to person, but we won't get into that because it's indisputable,) it simply makes things easier or more optimal when you have group members supporting you. For example, Spriggans and Hundings with a 2 piece weapon damage helmet and shoulders will do you just fine in solo content on a stamina build vs it's "BIS" counterpart for the same generic situation: Twice Fang and Advancing Yokeda with Velidreth/Kragh. My point here is that group content is not absolutely necessary should you choose to not do it. Therefore farming this gear is not necessary. In my opinion, I wouldn't even tell someone to farm it unless they are over 700 cp as they (most likely) won't be in a position to a) farm it easily or b) use it effectively until around then anyway.

Typically I don't agree with a lot of what @Tasear says, but one thing I think we both agree on is that "the elite" and "elitists" are not the same. "The Elite", in my opinion are, those who have an excellent understanding of the game and it's mechanics as well as vast experience completing content. An "Elitist", in my opinion, is someone who may (but not necessarily) be an elite player but has a poor attitude and may act as described in OP. Not every elite player is an Elitist and not every Elitist is an elite player. In fact, I would argue that a majority of elite players are not Elitist and that a majority of Elitist's are not elite players.

This is where I have a problem with a majority of players with the "run what I want" mentality. Again, I encourage everyone to play how they enjoy the game as that's your right. However, it is not your right to infringe upon other players enjoyment in the benefit of your own. For example, I may enjoy running non-meta armor sets and not using abilities because I enjoy a skyrim style gameplay. That's absolutely fine for me to do by myself, but if I venture into group content then I should adjust my gameplay as such. It's one thing to RP as a one-handed orc while doing quests, but it's something different entirely to bring your one-handed orc into Cradle of Shadows and just light attack spam everything. If you want to run non-meta sets, that's fine. But at least alter your gameplay to make an attempt to contribute to the group or just don't do group content.

And here enters another issue I've seen arrise, "I only want to do group content for achievements but I don't want to change how I play because I won't have fun." My response to this is simple. If not playing "how you want" causes you to not have fun and group content requires you to play differently than "how you want" then it stands to reason that getting these achievements requires you to play differently than "how you want." Therefore you should not do it. Group content remains group content whether you want to do it or not. If you manage to get 3 people who will play with you to get these achievements, then go for it, have all the fun you want. But you can't expect to queue into dungeons "playing your way" without having people say something about it if it's affecting them. ( @Kikke should read this portion.)

Quite honestly, I suggest everyone at least learn a basic rotation for whatever class they play. That way, should you need to do group content, you can do a basic rotation and no matter what you wear you can at least contribute well enough. Anyone on a stamina build can simply put down endless hail, caltrops, and poison injection then front bar use uppercut, surprise attack, acid spray, snipe, shrouded dagger, etc to their hearts desire and still do ~20k DPS single target. Just try to remember that you're not the only person playing and that your enjoyment of the game does not trump the enjoyment of others. And communication goes a long way, if you simply say something in chat then a lot of the time people will most likely be much more patient with you. But when you run around light attacking, dying, not communicating, etc you get kicked from the dungeon; and it's not just because they are Elitists who hate on your playstyle, it's because you're an uncooperative person and a detriment to the group.

Ouchy...am I really that bad?

Though to honest it feels like game has two different audiences that cause most of game issues. Usually it's not a issue except for those who stand in middle. It's hard to tell difference between those who can successful play as you want at good level vs snipe spammers.

Maybe this comes back to vision of gameplay they are focusing on this year. So we will have an base idea of what a successful characters look like in different ascepts.

Let me throw something else in to conversation? How do people learn a good rotation or even what it is ? Why doesn't gameplay teach us how to be better at combat?

MaleAmazon · January 2019

Let me throw something else in to conversation? How do people learn a good rotation or even what it is ? Why doesn't gameplay teach us how to be better at combat?

People learn a good rotation when they´re forced to. This occurs only in veteran group content. PvP is different (at least in Cyro, I stay way away from BGs at the moment, I don´t need ESO-Quake) since there you need utility, defense and burst.

Gameplay doesn´t teach you to be better at combat because nothing in the game that isnt vet dungeon gameplay (apart from vMA) requires you to be. You learn block, interrupt in the tutorial but you don´t really -need- it in the game. I deleted some characters and started a new main character, figured I´d take things more slowly, play more role-play, have more fun. It is more fun, but most bosses go down in 5 seconds and hardly touch the HP bar.

If you want to do harder dungeons and trials, that´s when people ask your DPS, and that´s when you get a rotation. Copied or created. It is not hard to understand what it is though, but personally I´ve found that simpler rotations are actually often as effective or more effective than complicated ones.

Bit of a shame, really.

Tasear · January 2019

MaleAmazon wrote: »

Let me throw something else in to conversation? How do people learn a good rotation or even what it is ? Why doesn't gameplay teach us how to be better at combat?

People learn a good rotation when they´re forced to. This occurs only in veteran group content. PvP is different (at least in Cyro, I stay way away from BGs at the moment, I don´t need ESO-Quake) since there you need utility, defense and burst.

Gameplay doesn´t teach you to be better at combat because nothing in the game that isnt vet dungeon gameplay (apart from vMA) requires you to be. You learn block, interrupt in the tutorial but you don´t really -need- it in the game. I deleted some characters and started a new main character, figured I´d take things more slowly, play more role-play, have more fun. It is more fun, but most bosses go down in 5 seconds and hardly touch the HP bar.

If you want to do harder dungeons and trials, that´s when people ask your DPS, and that´s when you get a rotation. Copied or created.

Bit of a shame, really.

Maybe part of the issue is the learning gap. I mean I can appericate learning on your own or trying different things, but we need a better way to bridge gap. Maybe guilds or dummies that teach rotations?

ZOS_RogerJ · January 2019

Just a friendly reminder to be mindful of our community rules when posting to the thread. While we completely understand everyone has their own opinions, thoughts, feelings and even frustrations, we want the forums to be a civil and constructive platform for the game and it's community as a whole.

MaleAmazon · January 2019

Maybe part of the issue is the learning gap. I mean I can appericate learning on your own or trying different things, but we need a better way to bridge gap. Maybe guilds or dummies that teach rotations?

I´m just going to regurgitate my own ranting and say we need a harder overland difficulty setting. Personally I am partial to heavy attack rotations since you can put everything into max damage and not worry about sustain. Others play differently. But ESO is a long-term investment for many, and if the difficulty forced you to think about what you were doing, I think many people would rise to that challenge, start using rotations and weaving, etc. It might take some time to learn but it isn´t extremely difficult to get the basics down. I´ve completed all content in the game except vMHK and vFL using a basic rotation as a DPS, and the 2 I haven´t cleared wasn´t because of low DPS - it´s because I haven´t been able to find others to do it with yet

I learned rotations (so far as I know them, I am no expert on detailed rotations) myself. Others I think learn through guilds. The game doesn´t teach you - but then again what do you expect from a game that cannot even define with consistency what it considers a 'melee attack'?

However a training arena where you could get feedback on something like light attack weaving wouldn´t be bad. I wouldn´t consider it to be high on the priority list though.

El_Borracho · January 2019

Didn't read all the posts, so sorry if this is beating the same dead horse. Elite is just being very, very good at something. You can be elite without being an "elitist [d-bag]," a.k.a. elitism.

Think of it as golf. There are the very good players (i.e. a 1-5 handicap) who are cool to play with. Then there are the guys who are just as good who CONSTANTLY tell you what you are doing wrong, how you need better (their) gear, and laugh at you every time you hit a bad shot. Now, instead of golf, imagine you are running vMOL with the latter.

DjMuscleboy02 · January 2019

Tasear wrote: »

MaleAmazon wrote: »

Let me throw something else in to conversation? How do people learn a good rotation or even what it is ? Why doesn't gameplay teach us how to be better at combat?

People learn a good rotation when they´re forced to. This occurs only in veteran group content. PvP is different (at least in Cyro, I stay way away from BGs at the moment, I don´t need ESO-Quake) since there you need utility, defense and burst.

Gameplay doesn´t teach you to be better at combat because nothing in the game that isnt vet dungeon gameplay (apart from vMA) requires you to be. You learn block, interrupt in the tutorial but you don´t really -need- it in the game. I deleted some characters and started a new main character, figured I´d take things more slowly, play more role-play, have more fun. It is more fun, but most bosses go down in 5 seconds and hardly touch the HP bar.

If you want to do harder dungeons and trials, that´s when people ask your DPS, and that´s when you get a rotation. Copied or created.

Bit of a shame, really.

Maybe part of the issue is the learning gap. I mean I can appericate learning on your own or trying different things, but we need a better way to bridge gap. Maybe guilds or dummies that teach rotations?

Firstly, in response to your response to my first comment, we simply just don't agree on several things. Nothing wrong with it, just a difference of opinion. It's ok to disagree.

Frankly a rotation simply requires a little critical thinking. You don't need to be an outstanding player to understand that the basis of a solid rotation is layering dots (damage over time ability) and does a dot do more damage over it's duration than one cast of a spammable attack (attack with no damage over time, all damage is dealt up front.) Watching any PvE build video you'll notice a similar concept. Stamina use Hail, Caltrops, Poison injection and Magicka use Elemental Blockade, Class ground aoe (path, LL, spear, etc), class dot (curse, cripple, purifying light, etc.) It's pretty easy to strip that and simplify a rotation using those 2-3 abilities and then your choice of spammable attack. It's a player's responsibility to reach out for information just as much as it is experienced players to provide it. Perhaps Zenimax could post a video explaining dots and spammable attacks for a basic group play build on their site much like they do current build videos.

Maura_Neysa · January 2019

Tasear wrote: »

First there's a difference between elite and elistism. The elite will advise something fitting person's need, while elistist will push their way.

On topic, how to people get knowledge without be deemed? Do people need to join guilds? How to people learn to get better in game as a solo player?

Pretty Easy, list 3 builds. (yes just like Alcast does) BiS, Old BiS, and Noob. So the example of AY/Releq/Vel, VO/Levaitian/Selene, Hundings/NMG/Stormfist. Then tell them what they are for. Politely. After all if you want to farm AY/Releq/Veli you should at least be wearing Hunding/Leviathan/Stormfist.

But I completely agree there is a group of people who are good enough to think they are great, but bad enough to be

in anything but BiS, who don't understand that you can again make an unkillable NB Tank who's primary heal is Cleanse (KenaPPK build) or a BowDen pulling 45k or just running around Staff front Bow back doing what ever you want cause its whats fun to you. Those types of people really are getting tiresome.

Tasear · January 2019

MaleAmazon wrote: »

Maybe part of the issue is the learning gap. I mean I can appericate learning on your own or trying different things, but we need a better way to bridge gap. Maybe guilds or dummies that teach rotations?

I´m just going to regurgitate my own ranting and say we need a harder overland difficulty setting. Personally I am partial to heavy attack rotations since you can put everything into max damage and not worry about sustain. Others play differently. But ESO is a long-term investment for many, and if the difficulty forced you to think about what you were doing, I think many people would rise to that challenge, start using rotations and weaving, etc. It might take some time to learn but it isn´t extremely difficult to get the basics down. I´ve completed all content in the game except vMHK and vFL using a basic rotation as a DPS, and the 2 I haven´t cleared wasn´t because of low DPS - it´s because I haven´t been able to find others to do it with yet

I learned rotations (so far as I know them, I am no expert on detailed rotations) myself. Others I think learn through guilds. The game doesn´t teach you - but then again what do you expect from a game that cannot even define with consistency what it considers a 'melee attack'?

However a training arena where you could get feedback on something like light attack weaving wouldn´t be bad. I wouldn´t consider it to be high on the priority list though.

Old craglorn was that but didn't work out. A lot of people play this as Skyrim online and never do group content. In fact to my disappointment most content in game is made to cater to solo experience.

Maura_Neysa · January 2019

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Well the eltist try to enjoy the game too. How is 10k dps snipe spammer making the game enjoyable for ppl who get them from que?

If you Random que and a 10k Snipe spamer and it isnt Vet DLC and it matters, than you aren't as good as you think you are.
I'm just happy I'm going anything faster then soloing it.

MaleAmazon · January 2019

Old craglorn was that but didn't work out. A lot of people play this as Skyrim online and never do group content. In fact to my disappointment most content in game is made to cater to solo experience.

Have to say I find my experience to be sort of the opposite. Well not really, just in terms of difficult content. Old Craglorn was a mess (disclaimer: I didn´t really play it but I can imagine since I´ve soloed it now) but that had more to do with forced group content with disjointed quests, no? I´ve done impromptu groups in Craglorn, was fun, but then it fell apart because people were on different quest stages.

Group DLC content ramped up difficulty a LOT. Even normal Moon Hunter Keep can kill you, unlike some Overland bosses that literally can´t since your health regen is higher than their DPS...

However Overland difficulty has been thoroughly neglected from the start back in 2014, what with all quests levelling to your level (which I think is good, just also means you cannot take on harder quests), nerfed bosses, better sets, CP... Murkmire being a pushover was a pretty big letdown for me.

I do think one effect of this is to create a skill gap (like you alluded to) between players who move on to difficult content, and people who go into a normal DLC dungeon, die because they never needed to know what those yellow sparkly lines coming from the boss mean, quit the group and then never move out of their Overland comfort zone again.

Kikke · January 2019

@DjMuscleboy02 think you misunderstood me xD I already got the achivements because I was willing to build for it and spend the time needed. I am a 50k+ DPS MagSorc that have completed all the game got to offer

. But I've never felt it as a job, just fun =P

Edit: My previous post was about how people feel that if you want to get good you have to play the game as a job, and I dont agree with this statement.

DjMuscleboy02 · January 2019

Kikke wrote: »

@DjMuscleboy02 think you misunderstood me xD I already got the achivements because I was willing to build for it and spend the time needed. I am a 50k+ DPS MagSorc that have completed all the game got to offer . But I've never felt it as a job, just fun =P

I wasn't saying you hadn't, just more or less responding to your comment. But good on you for doing what you needed to get them done! If only everyone would do that

josiahva · January 2019

My opinion is as it has always been. The Meta is poison to all games, it will always exist in every game, but it takes all the fun out of playing the game. I dont see the point in playing someone else's build myself. Sure, there will always be some overlap in sets worn and skills chosen, but the more Meta a given build is, the more boring it is to play.

kathandira · January 2019

Raudgrani wrote: »

snip

I know what you mean. I have a few friends who are pretty casual and like to take their time and smell the roses a bit. However, they also recognise that you have to be able to kill things, and don't quite enjoy being dead weight.

I usually advise them in Tiers.

Tier 1, Crafted/Overland

Tier 2, Dungeon Gear

Tier 3, Trials Gear

This way they get to experience the game, and don't really get to skip content and land right at the final tier. I feel it makes them more familiar with the class, and the game in general.

Wifeaggro13 · January 2019

Tasear wrote: »

MaleAmazon wrote: »

Maybe part of the issue is the learning gap. I mean I can appericate learning on your own or trying different things, but we need a better way to bridge gap. Maybe guilds or dummies that teach rotations?

I´m just going to regurgitate my own ranting and say we need a harder overland difficulty setting. Personally I am partial to heavy attack rotations since you can put everything into max damage and not worry about sustain. Others play differently. But ESO is a long-term investment for many, and if the difficulty forced you to think about what you were doing, I think many people would rise to that challenge, start using rotations and weaving, etc. It might take some time to learn but it isn´t extremely difficult to get the basics down. I´ve completed all content in the game except vMHK and vFL using a basic rotation as a DPS, and the 2 I haven´t cleared wasn´t because of low DPS - it´s because I haven´t been able to find others to do it with yet

I learned rotations (so far as I know them, I am no expert on detailed rotations) myself. Others I think learn through guilds. The game doesn´t teach you - but then again what do you expect from a game that cannot even define with consistency what it considers a 'melee attack'?

However a training arena where you could get feedback on something like light attack weaving wouldn´t be bad. I wouldn´t consider it to be high on the priority list though.

Old craglorn was that but didn't work out. A lot of people play this as Skyrim online and never do group content. In fact to my disappointment most content in game is made to cater to solo experience.

Old craglorn was fine . It was the hub of the end game. It was packed people doing quests ,grinding vr. What happened was Zos failed hard. They did not continue with progression. They quit working on end game and began their quest to console. They continually raised VR while leaving content in craglorn at v10 making it absolute

DragonRacer · January 2019

Eh, wouldn't call it elitism. More of an... over-exuberance for meta/BiS? Or maybe having gamed ESO so hard for so long, it's relatively easy to forget what it felt like at the start?

I have a recent anecdotal experience as well. A new person joined a guild I'm in and mentioned in guild chat that he was having a lot of trouble with a solo story quest. He was Level 48, playing a healer, getting one-shotted by a particular boss.

One of the guild officers gave him a lot of great advice, made him some food/drink buffs, and gave recommendations on gear sets to go after. Which would take farming particular dungeons. Which he didn't even really know a lot about yet because... new player, Level 48, just trying to get through a particular story quest that was vexing him.

The advice was well-intentioned and I have no doubt him eventually acquiring that gear once he hits CP 160 will help him later in his ESO life.

But for right now... in just this moment of time... he needed to not get one-shotted. I asked if crafting him some armor and tossing a big ol' health glyph on it, just to get him over his hump, would help and that idea was... not necessarily shot down, but brushed off a little. He was a healer, focus was on magicka and magicka regen.

Okay.

I say this knowing damn well I am not an endgame player. I never will be. I am not in dungeons much. I'm very much a PvE solo player who farms mats a lot and enjoys the trading guild life, and doing world bosses and story quests, and I am just never gonna be that hardcore meta/BiS player. I accept this. I am fine with this.

So, on the down-low, I went ahead and followed my instinct. I made him a mix of Julianos/Kagrenac's Hope light armor, a fire staff and a resto staff, put magicka glphs on everything except chest where, yes, I slapped a big ol' max health glyph. And mailed them to him. And then went to bed because it was getting rather late for me.

I logged on the next evening to a mail from the Level 48... who had finally beaten that boss "thanks to that armor you made me".

Jayman1000 · January 2019

And that is why we need more interesting and challenging overland stuff (you shouldn't have to gimp yourself to be meet a challenge in world bosses, they should be a challenge in and of themselves). Overland is the true Elder Scrolls experience in my opinion, this were you can explore beautiful sceneries and take in the atmosphere, frolick in the green grassy hills and the sunshine.

Maura_Neysa · January 2019

Jayman1000 wrote: »

And that is why we need more interesting and challenging overland stuff (you shouldn't have to gimp yourself to be meet a challenge in world bosses, they should be a challenge in and of themselves). Overland is the true Elder Scrolls experience in my opinion, this were you can explore beautiful sceneries and take in the atmosphere, frolick in the green grassy hills and the sunshine.

Gawd, I wish they would implement vet/normal Overland. I want all of Tamerial to feel like Craglorn, and Craglorn to be truly group content.
700 CP ago I did not want this, but now at max CP overland is just too easy

Raudgrani · January 2019

kathandira wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

snip

I know what you mean. I have a few friends who are pretty casual and like to take their time and smell the roses a bit. However, they also recognise that you have to be able to kill things, and don't quite enjoy being dead weight.

I usually advise them in Tiers.

Tier 1, Crafted/Overland

Tier 2, Dungeon Gear

Tier 3, Trials Gear

This way they get to experience the game, and don't really get to skip content and land right at the final tier. I feel it makes them more familiar with the class, and the game in general.

Yup. I'm in one guild with pretty old people (even though there's people of all ages there); we have a bunch who are well past 50 up to almost 70 there. Some of them do play a lot (retired), but their idea of fun is mostly doing dailies, decorating houses and just talking to people (I suppose a couple of them are pretty lonely).
The DPS of some of these was a complete and total joke, I would seriously guess 8-9k dps. It was easy to help them reach like 15-20k dps; and suddenly we could pull them through all normal trials - and you could easily tell they were happy about it. Sometimes they were like "Anyone want to do veteran pledges?", and you were quite reluctant to join them because if you couldn't solo the dungeon in question, you couldn't do it with them either. Now they have basic "Tier 1-2" sets (according to you), and they can finally be of some help.

But back to what you said; yes it's very much recommended (necessary) that you wear some kind of trials set when doing hard content. If not just for the Minor Slayer bonus, they also tend to have bonuses for group benefit too.
I was wearing Warmachine/Automaton/Selene/VMA Bow on a stamwarden, but switched Automaton for Two-Fanged Snake, and The Lover mundus for The Thief and switched Cutting Dive for Shrouded Dagger - and saw a good increase in DPS. I think around 2-3k dps.
But still, I would not be shy of recommending Automaton to anyone, at least the armor pieces are farmed in some 2-3 runs, and if you use the right skills (Physical Damage) it's pretty strong for such an easily achievable set.

Androconium · January 2019

Tasear wrote: »

First there's a difference between elite and elistism. The elite will advise something fitting person's need, while elistist will push their way.

On topic, how to people get knowledge without be deemed? Do people need to join guilds? How to people learn to get better in game as a solo player?

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