Penalize Zergs

Rukzadlithau · December 2018

In Cyrodiil auto-targeting and AoE: Heals, buffs, synergies etc. Should only work on members inside of your group. Every member after the group size of 4 should increase the Battlespirit for this group. „Battalionspirit“; This should either take effect per member, or per group brackets.

So if you want to benefit from AoE or Auto-target support you have to be grouped, the bigger your group the less healing and damage it deals, but you keep the numerical player advantage.

Artim_X · December 2018

No to everything in your post. When a fellow soldier is injured why should I have to group up with them just to heal them back up. Some people specifically play healers in PvP. When an enemy zerg 20/20 a keep with every annoying siege in the game how are the defensive healers going to counter all that nonsense without AoE heals? I rather not have PvP become primarily siege based.

idk · December 2018

Seriously no. Besides saying an members of an alliance need to fight separately for a common goal it is really just a bad idea.

It is clearly a pointless idea to reduce the damage and healing players do because of the size of the group. All they need to do is split the group in half, or whatever, and still operate as one group. Similar ideas have been presented recently and that logic and similar, have debunked each and every one of them.

Even a small group of competent players with a leader who knows what they are doing can take out a Zerg. If not in a group that can get the job done, avoid the zerg.

Rukzadlithau · December 2018

Artim_X wrote: »

No to everything in your post. When a fellow soldier is injured why should I have to group up with them just to heal them back up. Some people specifically play healers in PvP. When an enemy zerg 20/20 a keep with every annoying siege in the game how are the defensive healers going to counter all that nonsense without AoE heals? I rather not have PvP become primarily siege based.

Point is you could still heal him with a single target heal, or on-target heal. Nobody in your described scenario that could be an opposing force, wouldn’t be grouped anyways. And reading between your lines you won‘t have to worry, you‘ll still overheal the siege even with Battalionspirit in your 24 man group.

idk wrote: »

Seriously no. Besides saying an members of an alliance need to fight separately for a common goal it is really just a bad idea.

It is clearly a pointless idea to reduce the damage and healing players do because of the size of the group. All they need to do is split the group in half, or whatever, and still operate as one group. Similar ideas have been presented recently and that logic and similar, have debunked each and every one of them.

Even a small group of competent players with a leader who knows what they are doing can take out a Zerg. If not in a group that can get the job done, avoid the zerg.

If they split their group in half, it‘s still less heals stacking/overlapping and harder to navigate, even if they reduce the penalty that way. What do you talk about „debunking“ if you don‘t even understand that aspect properly. And no, you don‘t avoid zergs anymore these days, because the mentality caused by nonpenalized grouping, which you‘re trying to defend here, created a mindset where these zergs chase anything, even singular players, around half the map for the „fun“ of it. But I guess your PvP experience consists of running along such groups, „solo“ ungrouped ofc, and still profit from their heals and buffs.

Draxys · December 2018

Dynamic ultimate. Purge bug.

Artim_X · December 2018

Buzo wrote: »

Artim_X wrote: »

No to everything in your post. When a fellow soldier is injured why should I have to group up with them just to heal them back up. Some people specifically play healers in PvP. When an enemy zerg 20/20 a keep with every annoying siege in the game how are the defensive healers going to counter all that nonsense without AoE heals? I rather not have PvP become primarily siege based.

Point is you could still heal him with a single target heal, or on-target heal. Nobody in your described scenario that could be an opposing force, wouldn’t be grouped anyways. And reading between your lines you won‘t have to worry, you‘ll still overheal the siege even with Battalionspirit in your 24 man group.

Running around in groups is all fine and dandy, but that is not something I like to do often. I have much more fun going to where the action is and helping out however I can. Now from a sorc perspective tell me what are my options in terms of "single target/on-target heals" that are worth slotting especially in the era of combat bug where you can't switch out skills even when you have not been in combat for quite a while?

Have you ever been inside a keep and all of a sudden the enemy wants to pvdoor the hell out of it? You assume too much from my example so let me give a more clear one. You are not in a group and you do not know how many people are present to defend the keep, but you do know that a full guild group are right outside that door ready to kill everything in their way and after saying the keep is UA in zone chat you can only hope that enough players arrive in time. Based on your idea I would be forced to use yell chat to ask random people in the area to group up with me just so that I can properly heal them up, but if everyone present is already grouped up in some manner (2 mans, 3 mans, etc.) then they won't benefit from my heals without disbanding their group. A full 24 man using comms are at the door, while my faction is trying their best to organize themselves just to be able to put up some kind of makeshift defense against a group that has a plan in mind for how they want to take the keep. So no I will not be over healing the siege, since most players who are trying their best to make it to the keep are not grouped up with me. Even if that enemy guild group has less effective heals and damage they'll still be able to plow through everything since organized groups > disorganized group (especially if the disorganized group is significantly smaller than the organized one).

LeagueTroll · December 2018

Running around ress tower and 3v1 all day is no better than zerg.

Bhaal5 · December 2018

Should penalize 'solo' players for trying to bring single player games to a mmo

Rukzadlithau · December 2018

@Artim_X
There‘s an underused Psjiic Skill that would win more value for SoLo SoRc HeALeRs like you then.

Stop acting like we‘re in the early days of PvP. It‘s well established that keep de- and offense is all about forming groups as big as possible, even newcomers grasp that instantly these days, because /zone is flooded with zerg invites. This is all about encouraging groups to be selective about their layout and penalize mindless, numerical advantage seeking raids.

Artim_X · December 2018

Buzo wrote: »

@Artim_X
There‘s an underused Psjiic Skill that would win more value for SoLo SoRc HeALeRs like you then.

Stop acting like we‘re in the early days of PvP. It‘s well established that keep de- and offense is all about forming groups as big as possible, even newcomers grasp that instantly these days, because /zone is flooded with zerg invites. This is all about encouraging groups to be selective about their layout and penalize mindless, numerical advantage seeking raids.

Ha! I had a feeling you'd choose that skill, which imo is not worth slotting (It's completely useless when I just want to focus on myself so I can't remove it if I'm suffering from combat bug). Also you can't really expect a healer to be successful with randoms with just that skill alone, which is why it is underused.

Play on AD in Vivic on PC NA and see just how far your LFG spam in zone takes you. Most of the time when AD attacks or defends something it is with a completely disorganized group of players that are just present at the same time. There is no crown just players playing the game.

IAVITNI · December 2018

Bhaal5 wrote: »

Should penalize 'solo' players for trying to bring single player games to a mmo

ZoS has stated that solo players are a desired population in PvP. The existence of resources was at one pointed indicated to be an objective that "solo and small groups" could aim for.

Most solo players just want mobility pots back and snipe nerfed. Personally couldn't care less about nerfing zergs in the way OP asks for.

Maybe nerf Cloak too because cloak->bow LA->cloak is annoying and won't let me mount. And it's not like that nb is actually going to fight after I survive the initial heavy bow ambush incap combo. I'd rather that nb just run away the moment they see me.

*Note-I don't actually want Cloak nerfed, to an extent. I'd rather see streak increase cost removed, purify cost reduced and Wardens should actually probably be nerfed. DK wings is the only iconic class skill that is kind of weird because it overpowers magblades and magsorcs but is kinda useless against everything else.

Bhaal5 · December 2018

IAVITNI wrote: »

Bhaal5 wrote: »

Should penalize 'solo' players for trying to bring single player games to a mmo

ZoS has stated that solo players are a desired population in PvP. The existence of resources was at one pointed indicated to be an objective that "solo and small groups" could aim for.

Most solo players just want mobility pots back and snipe nerfed. Personally couldn't care less about nerfing zergs in the way OP asks for.

Maybe nerf Cloak too because cloak->bow LA->cloak is annoying and won't let me mount. And it's not like that nb is actually going to fight after I survive the initial heavy bow ambush incap combo. I'd rather that nb just run away the moment they see me.

*Note-I don't actually want Cloak nerfed, to an extent. I'd rather see streak increase cost removed, purify cost reduced and Wardens should actually probably be nerfed. DK wings is the only iconic class skill that is kind of weird because it overpowers magblades and magsorcs but is kinda useless against everything else.

But why penalize groups for doing pretty much the only thing you can do as a "guild"? Pvp is dying as it it.

There zero amount of content that is aimed for guilds, (dont mention trials and vet dungeons because a group of 12 people aint really a guild, its a group). There is zero amount of content in pve that requires a large amount of people to complete.

Eso has a poor amount of content for a mmo of its price point, yeah it should be a glorified outdated singleplayer.
But if i want a solo elder scrolls experience, i start up skyrim.

idk · December 2018

Buzo wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Seriously no. Besides saying an members of an alliance need to fight separately for a common goal it is really just a bad idea.

It is clearly a pointless idea to reduce the damage and healing players do because of the size of the group. All they need to do is split the group in half, or whatever, and still operate as one group. Similar ideas have been presented recently and that logic and similar, have debunked each and every one of them.

Even a small group of competent players with a leader who knows what they are doing can take out a Zerg. If not in a group that can get the job done, avoid the zerg.

If they split their group in half, it‘s still less heals stacking/overlapping and harder to navigate, even if they reduce the penalty that way. What do you talk about „debunking“ if you don‘t even understand that aspect properly. And no, you don‘t avoid zergs anymore these days, because the mentality caused by nonpenalized grouping, which you‘re trying to defend here, created a mindset where these zergs chase anything, even singular players, around half the map for the „fun“ of it. But I guess your PvP experience consists of running along such groups, „solo“ ungrouped ofc, and still profit from their heals and buffs.

It helps if you read the entire post because you clearly missed two important ports.

Zos is not make it so I cannot heal you just because we are in a different group and that is for many reasons. It makes the least sense when considering multiple small groups might end up working to take or defend the same keep. It is logical that they could help each other. What you have stated totally lacks logic.

Also, the last sentence explains small groups can effectively kill large zergs when that group has competent players that listen and a good leader. So yes, this is something I do not expect everyone can do easily because it does take a decent coordinated group, but challenge is good. Challenge helps us all improve. Nerfing challenge to our level instead of rising to it weakens the game.

I do find humor that you attempted to berate me as some who runs along large groups as you quoted me clearly stated my experience with skill small groups against zergs. I understand the success of a small group of skill players can be difficult to understand when it is something one has not experienced yet.

dazee · December 2018

The Overmind dissaproves of nerfing the Zerg playstyle.

Rukzadlithau · December 2018

@idk
You always try to write eloquent, but in the end your summaries are still empty of meaning. Most real small groups do not stand a chance anymore because there is no penalty for group size. So if you run a true 4 man smallscale, mostly you‘ll encounter groups of around 20 npc‘s - you do not stand a chance. There‘s no healthy mix of group sizes anymore, people just go for the group member limit, because that‘s the biggest non penalized advantage they can get. The example you stated is a joke, look at most of these good, organized players; They now run groups half as big as these zergs to compete against multiple of these fully sized raids. But you are right, Zos won‘t change it.

idk · December 2018

Buzo wrote: »

@idk
You always try to write eloquent, but in the end your summaries are still empty of meaning. Most real small groups do not stand a chance anymore because there is no penalty for group size. So if you run a true 4 man smallscale, mostly you‘ll encounter groups of around 20 npc‘s - you do not stand a chance. There‘s no healthy mix of group sizes anymore, people just go for the group member limit, because that‘s the biggest non penalized advantage they can get. The example you stated is a joke, look at most of these good, organized players; They now run groups half as big as these zergs to compete against multiple of these fully sized raids. But you are right, Zos won‘t change it.

Empty of meaning. That is a good comment to make when you have nothing to say in reply.

lol I have often been in groups between 4-10 and often have taken out very large groups. Do not think I have taken out a group of 20 while only having 4, but we have with not much more than that. It really comes down to being smart about it. It starts with having a good leader and finishes with skilled players willing to run the skills they are asked to and can follow orders. Just because you have not experienced that does not make it a joke.

It is rather absurd to try to force Cyrodiill into groups just because you want to run with only 3 other people. So much so I am rather confident there is no aspect of your idea that will get consideration.

Edit: not sure why I bother replying. I should cease and just let this thread die out.

Rukzadlithau · December 2018

Cyrodiil is already all groups lmao, it changes not much but putting a penalty on them the bigger they are. Merry Christmas. 15k forum points

Flame_of_Hades · December 2018

Bhaal5 wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Bhaal5 wrote: »

Should penalize 'solo' players for trying to bring single player games to a mmo

ZoS has stated that solo players are a desired population in PvP. The existence of resources was at one pointed indicated to be an objective that "solo and small groups" could aim for.

Most solo players just want mobility pots back and snipe nerfed. Personally couldn't care less about nerfing zergs in the way OP asks for.

Maybe nerf Cloak too because cloak->bow LA->cloak is annoying and won't let me mount. And it's not like that nb is actually going to fight after I survive the initial heavy bow ambush incap combo. I'd rather that nb just run away the moment they see me.

*Note-I don't actually want Cloak nerfed, to an extent. I'd rather see streak increase cost removed, purify cost reduced and Wardens should actually probably be nerfed. DK wings is the only iconic class skill that is kind of weird because it overpowers magblades and magsorcs but is kinda useless against everything else.

But why penalize groups for doing pretty much the only thing you can do as a "guild"? Pvp is dying as it it.

There zero amount of content that is aimed for guilds, (dont mention trials and vet dungeons because a group of 12 people aint really a guild, its a group). There is zero amount of content in pve that requires a large amount of people to complete.

Eso has a poor amount of content for a mmo of its price point, yeah it should be a glorified outdated singleplayer.
But if i want a solo elder scrolls experience, i start up skyrim.

I'm sorry, but what? Eso has stupid amounts of content. All of the storylines, as a base, the dlcs, vdsa,vma,vbrp, trials. I'm sorry you don't have a 500 man raid, but with the amount of other things.... get over it....

Anrose · December 2018

Sounds like maybe OP is not cut out for ESO PvP and should try this game called Fortnite. Bai.

Bhaal5 · December 2018

I remember when skyrim was fun,

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

Bhaal5 wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Bhaal5 wrote: »

Should penalize 'solo' players for trying to bring single player games to a mmo

ZoS has stated that solo players are a desired population in PvP. The existence of resources was at one pointed indicated to be an objective that "solo and small groups" could aim for.

Most solo players just want mobility pots back and snipe nerfed. Personally couldn't care less about nerfing zergs in the way OP asks for.

Maybe nerf Cloak too because cloak->bow LA->cloak is annoying and won't let me mount. And it's not like that nb is actually going to fight after I survive the initial heavy bow ambush incap combo. I'd rather that nb just run away the moment they see me.

*Note-I don't actually want Cloak nerfed, to an extent. I'd rather see streak increase cost removed, purify cost reduced and Wardens should actually probably be nerfed. DK wings is the only iconic class skill that is kind of weird because it overpowers magblades and magsorcs but is kinda useless against everything else.

But why penalize groups for doing pretty much the only thing you can do as a "guild"? Pvp is dying as it it.

There zero amount of content that is aimed for guilds, (dont mention trials and vet dungeons because a group of 12 people aint really a guild, its a group). There is zero amount of content in pve that requires a large amount of people to complete.

Eso has a poor amount of content for a mmo of its price point, yeah it should be a glorified outdated singleplayer.
But if i want a solo elder scrolls experience, i start up skyrim.

I'm sorry, but what? Eso has stupid amounts of content. All of the storylines, as a base, the dlcs, vdsa,vma,vbrp, trials. I'm sorry you don't have a 500 man raid, but with the amount of other things.... get over it....

Na, i like mmos to have a curtain amount group content as well as guild content, solo content... I expect a triple to have ample amount of this content.
-dlc in eso are just re skinned recycled garbage. Nothing really new just a new meta gear to farm because we all love zenimaxs ability to balance.
-Trials... Are a buggy joke and too few since there isnt much content, there should be more of them and more diverse.
-vdsa was great.... 4 years ago, now stale
-Vma is the most worthy, but once done... Just a farm fest and
-base game is meh ok.

Will add chapters, morrowind atleast tied to add new content with BGs, even though it was a broken mess (and still is). But summerset gave nothing new, jewerly crafting? Something that was promised since craglorn an was meant to be apart of the base game but now is behind a pay wall? All summerset got me was frame rates into the single figures and more breaks.. But atleast push me (an others it seems) to go back to other mmos

Pvp in this game has been dead for years, ps4 NA, there has only been one worthly campaign and even still vivec population just floods to one side.

But glad you enjoy and seems some others enjoy this style (lack of) game development.

Iskiab · December 2018

OP’s post translation.

‘I don’t understand pvp, I designed my character to be really good at dueling but for some reason I lose when I try to duel 20 people at the same time. I think the problem might be that they help each other. Maybe if I whine on the forums they’ll change the game so I don’t have to get better and win these 1v20 duels. First cyrodiil and next will be trials, maybe if I whine I’ll get them to be able to solo those too.’

Vapirko · December 2018

Idk if your ideas are what should be implemented, but there does need to be some penalty to just maxing out groups and stacking. On a average day in Vivec, I see most players doing one of two things. Either balling up with as many players as they can find, or running away to the nearest keep once they realize they can’t win a 1v1. PvP is in a bit of a sorry place.

Bhaal5 · December 2018

Vapirko wrote: »

Idk if your ideas are what should be implemented, but there does need to be some penalty to just maxing out groups and stacking. On a average day in Vivec, I see most players doing one of two things. Either balling up with as many players as they can find, or running away to the nearest keep once they realize they can’t win a 1v1. PvP is in a bit of a sorry place.

Again why penalize having groups, no one is actually justifying this. (Crying about not been able to duel isnt really counting as you can duel out side if cyrodiil) The issue is steming from cyrodiil design.
There is no penalty for 'swapping sides' in the same team? Why is this even a thing. People just see one side winning and jump to that side.

Guild wars 2 has a healthy and structured 'cyrodiil' (its wvw) because you choose a wvw server at the character creation screen and you choose it once. (Its costs to swap teams, unlike eso)

But since there is only really one campaign theres zero competition, same people day in day out... Thats a receipe for boring stale and toxic.

Atleast with gw2's wvw, every week is someone new depend on your servers performance. (Drop a tier if you lose, go up a tier if you win). Maybe why they can field 15 servers where eso is flat out filling 3 (1 on each platform).

Nothing wrong with the groups, its just wrong at the design level. You have no one 'new' to fight.

IAVITNI · December 2018

Bhaal5 wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Bhaal5 wrote: »

Should penalize 'solo' players for trying to bring single player games to a mmo

ZoS has stated that solo players are a desired population in PvP. The existence of resources was at one pointed indicated to be an objective that "solo and small groups" could aim for.

Most solo players just want mobility pots back and snipe nerfed. Personally couldn't care less about nerfing zergs in the way OP asks for.

Maybe nerf Cloak too because cloak->bow LA->cloak is annoying and won't let me mount. And it's not like that nb is actually going to fight after I survive the initial heavy bow ambush incap combo. I'd rather that nb just run away the moment they see me.

*Note-I don't actually want Cloak nerfed, to an extent. I'd rather see streak increase cost removed, purify cost reduced and Wardens should actually probably be nerfed. DK wings is the only iconic class skill that is kind of weird because it overpowers magblades and magsorcs but is kinda useless against everything else.

But why penalize groups for doing pretty much the only thing you can do as a "guild"? Pvp is dying as it it.

There zero amount of content that is aimed for guilds, (dont mention trials and vet dungeons because a group of 12 people aint really a guild, its a group). There is zero amount of content in pve that requires a large amount of people to complete.

Eso has a poor amount of content for a mmo of its price point, yeah it should be a glorified outdated singleplayer.
But if i want a solo elder scrolls experience, i start up skyrim.

I never said to penalize zergs. Literally stated I didn't care for OPs suggestions. But you make it out like solo play is unintended, which is wrong.

There is no need to penalize zergs, but neither is there no reason to empower solo/small scale play.

For example, mobility is more useful to the solo/small scale community because a group will benefit more from investing into other areas. The nerf to mobility was a direct hit to solo/small scale. In an outnumbered fight the larger group already has the numbers advantage. Mobility was strong for solo because the opportunity cost was less than that of a group. The issue arose due to the poorly implemented Swift trait. A movement speed cap for both walking and sprinting would have been far more effective.

PvP is so bad because the meta is to build tanky and win with numbers. This makes for very monotonous and laggy gameplay. That is what killed PvP.

humpalicous · December 2018

Buzo wrote: »

In Cyrodiil auto-targeting and AoE: Heals, buffs, synergies etc. Should only work on members inside of your group. Every member after the group size of 4 should increase the Battlespirit for this group. „Battalionspirit“; This should either take effect per member, or per group brackets.

So if you want to benefit from AoE or Auto-target support you have to be grouped, the bigger your group the less healing and damage it deals, but you keep the numerical player advantage.

No, no and no, can't understand how you've gotten 7 agree's in this post.

Jimmy_The_Fixer · December 2018

I play mostly solo, and it’s pretty easy to not be where the zergs are. Groups of 10+ are almost always fighting around frontline keeps, so don’t go there.

It’s silly to jump into a huge battle and expect to 4v40 the entire enemy faction.

Vapirko · December 2018

Bhaal5 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Idk if your ideas are what should be implemented, but there does need to be some penalty to just maxing out groups and stacking. On a average day in Vivec, I see most players doing one of two things. Either balling up with as many players as they can find, or running away to the nearest keep once they realize they can’t win a 1v1. PvP is in a bit of a sorry place.

Again why penalize having groups, no one is actually justifying this. (Crying about not been able to duel isnt really counting as you can duel out side if cyrodiil) The issue is steming from cyrodiil design.
There is no penalty for 'swapping sides' in the same team? Why is this even a thing. People just see one side winning and jump to that side.

Guild wars 2 has a healthy and structured 'cyrodiil' (its wvw) because you choose a wvw server at the character creation screen and you choose it once. (Its costs to swap teams, unlike eso)

But since there is only really one campaign theres zero competition, same people day in day out... Thats a receipe for boring stale and toxic.

Atleast with gw2's wvw, every week is someone new depend on your servers performance. (Drop a tier if you lose, go up a tier if you win). Maybe why they can field 15 servers where eso is flat out filling 3 (1 on each platform).

Nothing wrong with the groups, its just wrong at the design level. You have no one 'new' to fight.

Well I’ve also advocated for faction lock per campaign for quite some time, but I’m not sure that would solve everything. There’s a lot of underlying issues that extend all the way to poor performance and combat balance driving good guilds and players away. That said, I do agree that working to break up large groups would be a good thing. Because right now most people have no incentive to do anything but join the largest group they can find and blindly follow crown. I love a big battle as much as anyone, it can be just as fun as any other level of play. And those will still happen. But we do need to push people away from jsut grouping up and zerging down keeps becuse half the time it’s not even PvP. It’s basically just PvDoor or PvLag. So how is that a good thing. We don’t want to penalize groups, we want to penalize big groups and zergs, particularly when the populations are unbalanced. For example a certain unnamed AD guild logs onto vivec the same time everyday when DC is at one bar and AD is 2-3 and proceeds to Zerg the map down. DC zone is basically like ok guys see you all later to get our scrolls back. Their reasoning is that DC does all day. This just creates a needless toxicity. So why not create penalties on these kinds of actions?

usmguy1234 · December 2018

The amount of people in here defending their lack of skill is astounding.

Flame_of_Hades · December 2018

usmguy1234 wrote: »

The amount of people in here defending their lack of skill is astounding.

Can't make jokes if you can't show clips xD

O_LYKOS · December 2018

no. Just leave the game alone

idk · December 2018

usmguy1234 wrote: »

The amount of people in here defending their lack of skill is astounding.

Very true. This thread was created with the specific intent that OP's group cannot defeat the largest groups possible so they want the game designed around them.

In post #15 of this thread that becomes clear where he says a group of 4 could not take out a group of 20.

That is just a silly justification for this idea. The fact this thread has not made it into the second page after 4 days demonstrates how few think this is a good idea.