Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

In this game you have weaving, animation cancelling, and a few other factors. They in themselves are significant problems that allow people to feel like they're some great player.

Strip that out and you just have the abilities and positioning. It's been a problem for a long time but it's allowed people who can get good at memorizing particular click patterns to feel like they actually have any real skill and it's become a stickler not in terms of skill or understanding the right ability for the right time (granted there's so few abilities in this game it's laughable and many don't even get used anymore so that's a problem in itself) but simply doing what everyone else does and trying to memorize it. Zenimax should have learned their combat system and fixed it so weaving and animation cancelling wasn't a thing because it was never intended to be originally by their own admission.

We also get to DPS burn like OP said and we get to a point where we stop using mechanics and such and just expect to walk through them and (maybe it wasn't OP that said that) as a result people get angry or upset or pissy if they have to do mechanics which most of them HAVE NO IDEA how to do.

People don't even remember what the white flames in Elden Hollow II do anymore.

WildWilbur wrote: »

The good old "I make a thread about me being sooo cool and spam it with my own posts" for all the precious stars beside my name!

Quick, OP, respond 3-4 times to my post!

Tasear wrote: »

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

In this game you have weaving, animation cancelling, and a few other factors. They in themselves are significant problems that allow people to feel like they're some great player.

Strip that out and you just have the abilities and positioning. It's been a problem for a long time but it's allowed people who can get good at memorizing particular click patterns to feel like they actually have any real skill and it's become a stickler not in terms of skill or understanding the right ability for the right time (granted there's so few abilities in this game it's laughable and many don't even get used anymore so that's a problem in itself) but simply doing what everyone else does and trying to memorize it. Zenimax should have learned their combat system and fixed it so weaving and animation cancelling wasn't a thing because it was never intended to be originally by their own admission.

We also get to DPS burn like OP said and we get to a point where we stop using mechanics and such and just expect to walk through them and (maybe it wasn't OP that said that) as a result people get angry or upset or pissy if they have to do mechanics which most of them HAVE NO IDEA how to do.

People don't even remember what the white flames in Elden Hollow II do anymore.

I swear I am losing track of this conversation, but that is a good point. Maybe part of issue is mechics can be skipped? Thud then limiting most effective options?

Lab3360 wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

Alcast, Liko, and the like post the best in slot builds. There is no argument to be had, no discussion about the math needed. Does that mean that you absolutely have to run them? No, of course not. And if you ask any credible player, they will tell you that. However, if you are trying to push score in veteran trials then yes, you need that setup and there are no exceptions. Literally any other content, you can play however you want on whatever you want (to an extent....heavy armour 2h magdk is gonna be hot garbage no matter what you do...sorry.) I really don't know why this continues to be brought up. The people telling you that you have to run these builds in vet dungeons are just toxic.

As for the accusation that Hodor doesn't give actual builds, that's laughable. They give their optimal build, they do switch through the trial alot though. Maybe people should try messaging some of these players privately before throwing around insults. You'll find that a vast majority of players in top pve guilds are actually very nice people and have no problem answering questions.

While I think Alcast and others do have great intentions and do great work. They don't necessarily post meta or best in slot builds which is the point of OP. Sorry alcast to throw you under the bus, but alcast builds for non traditional roles aren't best in slot, though as point back at me long ago they are easier to use.

Lets come back to best in slot word that goes around. I know eyes are rolling, as I go on, but I do think it's important. So let me ask the question is best in slot for one person the same for everyone? What about that new player who is just learning how to play their class class and role? There are some sets designed just for them. There's also players who just having fun. I seen people do decent all pet builds (gear included). Now lets talk about the contrary point.

There's having fun then there's being a burden. How do we decide the difference?

Best in Slot is meant for the role not for the player.

For example: Alkosh and Ebon are one of the best sets for tanking cause they offer a buff to the group from Ebon and a strong debuff on the boss with Alkosh.

These are not "Youtube Builds " its just a plattform where they get shared cause everyone has access to it.

If you want to be a frost tank with some special Snowflake setup cause you like it, sure, go for it. But dont expect to run with competetive Guilds on a progress run if you dont min max yourself.

Like Op with his Frost tank. Sounds like a fun Build but it doesnt provide everything a tank can do to the group with alkosh and Ebon. And if he only taunts with frost HA and inner fire where does the major fracture come from? pls dont say sub Assault.

Could Replace a set with NMG. Problem Solved thats easy.

Major Breach, Ele Drain

When you say buff the group, you really want to say "buff dps"

That right there really fires me up. Like the game is wrapped around dps. If dps want more burn, they should buff themselves. Dps dont get to determine what Tanks and Healer wear.

Just because these so called competition groups have found ways to cheese a trial does not mean it the responsibility of the tank or healer to buff the group. This is nothing more than cheese.

You dont see tanks and healers asking dps to taunt a boss, or mitigate damage or heal the group

Theyre 2 other roles who are just as important.

Imo these are not competition level groups. These are cheese trial groups with dps who sacrifice 2 other roles

No thanks bro.

Alcast wrote: »

Builds in general should always function as a base line. Every player has a different playstyle and therefore always should adjust builds to their needs. Players like to follow builds on youtube or the website because some players do not have the time to invest testing all the things on their own and they know with the builds posted by a content creator they can achieve all the stuff in the game. Maybe they want to learn the game and understand it faster so they check out builds on websites and youtube.

I can not adjust builds for every single trial, that would be a crazy ton of work to do. However, people giving the argument that we do not play our own builds is just dumb. When you join my Partner Discord Server you can see the Hodor people and ASK them for all the setups they run in different trial, you can ask them how they achieve certain goals, how they do tactics etc...so saying that we do not share our builds is a little bit unfair if you ask me. Several Hodor people such as Karma, Liko, Warfire, Seb Williams, Andy and me upload videos of our runs from time to time alongside a ton of other content. You can always come watch me live on twitch and ask any question and I will try to answer it as good as possible.

Now in the end I am in a dilemma here, should I set up my builds for group play, solo play, target dummy humping etc....always a tough question to ask. For now most of them are meant for group play but maybe at some point I might swap that around. I do think tho that the builds offer a lot of information about the setup itself and I always have 3 different gear setups, 300 CP, 600 CP and max CP setups, on top of that I always try to put Maelstrom and Blackrose setups there too.

I also do understand that it can be sometimes annoying that people think its "the only way". However, I keep saying that people should adjust builds to their needs.

Tasear wrote: »

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

In this game you have weaving, animation cancelling, and a few other factors. They in themselves are significant problems that allow people to feel like they're some great player.

Strip that out and you just have the abilities and positioning. It's been a problem for a long time but it's allowed people who can get good at memorizing particular click patterns to feel like they actually have any real skill and it's become a stickler not in terms of skill or understanding the right ability for the right time (granted there's so few abilities in this game it's laughable and many don't even get used anymore so that's a problem in itself) but simply doing what everyone else does and trying to memorize it. Zenimax should have learned their combat system and fixed it so weaving and animation cancelling wasn't a thing because it was never intended to be originally by their own admission.

We also get to DPS burn like OP said and we get to a point where we stop using mechanics and such and just expect to walk through them and (maybe it wasn't OP that said that) as a result people get angry or upset or pissy if they have to do mechanics which most of them HAVE NO IDEA how to do.

People don't even remember what the white flames in Elden Hollow II do anymore.

I swear I am losing track of this conversation, but that is a good point. Maybe part of issue is mechics can be skipped? Thud then limiting most effective options?

Lab3360 wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Dear OP

You stated, that Youtube builds are garbage and people should start making their own builds and stuff. Also you get very furious about the different roles and what they should do.

Lets start with Alcast and his builds: maybe you have visited his homepage once or several times, so you know, that he provides several gear setups for every class and role. There are beginner builds, which truly are a great start for new players, who do not have access to trial gear. And there are the gear setups listed as "best in slot" gear. You can say whatever you want about those, but those sets provide you with everything you need to get the best dps in a good group constellation. Therefore they work in a specific situation best. Mostly Alcast is talking about trials and the math proves, that a build with Siroria and spell strategist pulls the best dps in single target with almost no movement scenario (actually the scenario, which everyone can perform best, since you can put all your concentration into doing damage). Elite groups try to bring every boss fight into this scenario, so that they can perform at their best. In the end, the game is designed in the way, that fast clears with no deaths provide the best scores and the way elite groups do this is the most efficient one.

Now people need to decide, if they want to go a similar route or not. If a group tries to do their best in a vet trial, then they need to follow the elites, because they know the best way to do so. Therefore best in slot gear and good group compositions are required.
The other route is to not go after those high scores and in this case your approach is valid. You can wear whatever you want, go in a trial with whatever class you want, but do not expect to score well. And as soon as your group decides to try reaching higher scores, you need to start commit to a better group environment.

As you said, you catch fire when you hear, that healers and tanks should buff the group. Seeing you wit this statement tells me, that you certainly do not belong to the people reaching for good scores.
But let me tell you: Just tanking and healing is pretty easy, staying alive as a tank can be achieved easily too. That is why healers and tanks start to buff the group, because it adds more to their responsibility. Also saying, that damage dealers should buff themselves, because you dont want to is pretty egoistic. Damage dealers would lose dps by wearing the gear to buff the group or would lose dps by casting self buffs. In a good group, everyone thinks and commits to the best performance leading to the current state: tanks and healers provide buffs and debuffs, so that the dds can go full out. If you do not want to commit something to the group and rather be selfish, then the trial environment is nothing for you. In a group people need to start providing support for the group, this is the meaning of being a group and a selfish tank only caring for his survival does not fit that.

Somebody mentioned stam dk pvp builds and how they are all the same. Those builds are built around a specific situation, because those players want to play a specific PvP content: 1vX. Those setups for stamdks work the best in this scenario, since stamdks are a rather slow class and therefore most likely to get hit a lot. Therefore Fury and 7th legion provide the best stats, since their up-time will be high. Most PvP builds you find on Youtube are builds to perform in 1vX scenarios, in a group constellation, in a zerg or for someone rather playing siege simulator, those builds are not fitting.

Summarized Alcast has builds for new players and builds for the elite players. If you do not fit those two groups, then do not use his builds. If you do, you are on a good way to perform well.
Additionaly, everyone needs to decide for himself, if he wants to perform well or just have fun and also need to check, if this matches the group you are playing with. As soon as you want to perform well as single individual or as group member, committing to the group is important, which means going for specific meta sets and specific skills. If you rather want to play your own build and are not ready to adapt for being helpful to the group, then you do not fit serious trial environment.

In the end, it is pretty dumb coming here to the forums to call out people for trying to perform well. It is mean from you to insult people, who try their best for the group, meanwhile you rather want to play a selfish tank. If your group tries seriously to perform well in trials, then they can expect from you to commit to the group. But you really seem to be the egoistic guy, who does not like to participate as group member or to adapt for the group purpose (this is visible, since you rather cared for your own survival than the group at all). In your conflict both sides are right, since the group expected something from you and you disappointed them. On the other hand, you had other expectations into the group (being casually and not striving for scores) and you got disappointed, that they didnt meet it. It was a good decision to leave for both sides, since you do not fit that group.

Please find 1 single qpute where I stated "Youtube builds are garbage."

Please respond immediately.

Lab3360 wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Dear OP

You stated, that Youtube builds are garbage and people should start making their own builds and stuff. Also you get very furious about the different roles and what they should do.

Lets start with Alcast and his builds: maybe you have visited his homepage once or several times, so you know, that he provides several gear setups for every class and role. There are beginner builds, which truly are a great start for new players, who do not have access to trial gear. And there are the gear setups listed as "best in slot" gear. You can say whatever you want about those, but those sets provide you with everything you need to get the best dps in a good group constellation. Therefore they work in a specific situation best. Mostly Alcast is talking about trials and the math proves, that a build with Siroria and spell strategist pulls the best dps in single target with almost no movement scenario (actually the scenario, which everyone can perform best, since you can put all your concentration into doing damage). Elite groups try to bring every boss fight into this scenario, so that they can perform at their best. In the end, the game is designed in the way, that fast clears with no deaths provide the best scores and the way elite groups do this is the most efficient one.

Now people need to decide, if they want to go a similar route or not. If a group tries to do their best in a vet trial, then they need to follow the elites, because they know the best way to do so. Therefore best in slot gear and good group compositions are required.
The other route is to not go after those high scores and in this case your approach is valid. You can wear whatever you want, go in a trial with whatever class you want, but do not expect to score well. And as soon as your group decides to try reaching higher scores, you need to start commit to a better group environment.

As you said, you catch fire when you hear, that healers and tanks should buff the group. Seeing you wit this statement tells me, that you certainly do not belong to the people reaching for good scores.
But let me tell you: Just tanking and healing is pretty easy, staying alive as a tank can be achieved easily too. That is why healers and tanks start to buff the group, because it adds more to their responsibility. Also saying, that damage dealers should buff themselves, because you dont want to is pretty egoistic. Damage dealers would lose dps by wearing the gear to buff the group or would lose dps by casting self buffs. In a good group, everyone thinks and commits to the best performance leading to the current state: tanks and healers provide buffs and debuffs, so that the dds can go full out. If you do not want to commit something to the group and rather be selfish, then the trial environment is nothing for you. In a group people need to start providing support for the group, this is the meaning of being a group and a selfish tank only caring for his survival does not fit that.

Somebody mentioned stam dk pvp builds and how they are all the same. Those builds are built around a specific situation, because those players want to play a specific PvP content: 1vX. Those setups for stamdks work the best in this scenario, since stamdks are a rather slow class and therefore most likely to get hit a lot. Therefore Fury and 7th legion provide the best stats, since their up-time will be high. Most PvP builds you find on Youtube are builds to perform in 1vX scenarios, in a group constellation, in a zerg or for someone rather playing siege simulator, those builds are not fitting.

Summarized Alcast has builds for new players and builds for the elite players. If you do not fit those two groups, then do not use his builds. If you do, you are on a good way to perform well.
Additionaly, everyone needs to decide for himself, if he wants to perform well or just have fun and also need to check, if this matches the group you are playing with. As soon as you want to perform well as single individual or as group member, committing to the group is important, which means going for specific meta sets and specific skills. If you rather want to play your own build and are not ready to adapt for being helpful to the group, then you do not fit serious trial environment.

In the end, it is pretty dumb coming here to the forums to call out people for trying to perform well. It is mean from you to insult people, who try their best for the group, meanwhile you rather want to play a selfish tank. If your group tries seriously to perform well in trials, then they can expect from you to commit to the group. But you really seem to be the egoistic guy, who does not like to participate as group member or to adapt for the group purpose (this is visible, since you rather cared for your own survival than the group at all). In your conflict both sides are right, since the group expected something from you and you disappointed them. On the other hand, you had other expectations into the group (being casually and not striving for scores) and you got disappointed, that they didnt meet it. It was a good decision to leave for both sides, since you do not fit that group.

I cant even take you seriously.
All of youre supposition, paraphrasing.
Youre post has no substance.

Checkmath wrote: »

Lab3360 wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Dear OP

You stated, that Youtube builds are garbage and people should start making their own builds and stuff. Also you get very furious about the different roles and what they should do.

Lets start with Alcast and his builds: maybe you have visited his homepage once or several times, so you know, that he provides several gear setups for every class and role. There are beginner builds, which truly are a great start for new players, who do not have access to trial gear. And there are the gear setups listed as "best in slot" gear. You can say whatever you want about those, but those sets provide you with everything you need to get the best dps in a good group constellation. Therefore they work in a specific situation best. Mostly Alcast is talking about trials and the math proves, that a build with Siroria and spell strategist pulls the best dps in single target with almost no movement scenario (actually the scenario, which everyone can perform best, since you can put all your concentration into doing damage). Elite groups try to bring every boss fight into this scenario, so that they can perform at their best. In the end, the game is designed in the way, that fast clears with no deaths provide the best scores and the way elite groups do this is the most efficient one.

Now people need to decide, if they want to go a similar route or not. If a group tries to do their best in a vet trial, then they need to follow the elites, because they know the best way to do so. Therefore best in slot gear and good group compositions are required.
The other route is to not go after those high scores and in this case your approach is valid. You can wear whatever you want, go in a trial with whatever class you want, but do not expect to score well. And as soon as your group decides to try reaching higher scores, you need to start commit to a better group environment.

As you said, you catch fire when you hear, that healers and tanks should buff the group. Seeing you wit this statement tells me, that you certainly do not belong to the people reaching for good scores.
But let me tell you: Just tanking and healing is pretty easy, staying alive as a tank can be achieved easily too. That is why healers and tanks start to buff the group, because it adds more to their responsibility. Also saying, that damage dealers should buff themselves, because you dont want to is pretty egoistic. Damage dealers would lose dps by wearing the gear to buff the group or would lose dps by casting self buffs. In a good group, everyone thinks and commits to the best performance leading to the current state: tanks and healers provide buffs and debuffs, so that the dds can go full out. If you do not want to commit something to the group and rather be selfish, then the trial environment is nothing for you. In a group people need to start providing support for the group, this is the meaning of being a group and a selfish tank only caring for his survival does not fit that.

Somebody mentioned stam dk pvp builds and how they are all the same. Those builds are built around a specific situation, because those players want to play a specific PvP content: 1vX. Those setups for stamdks work the best in this scenario, since stamdks are a rather slow class and therefore most likely to get hit a lot. Therefore Fury and 7th legion provide the best stats, since their up-time will be high. Most PvP builds you find on Youtube are builds to perform in 1vX scenarios, in a group constellation, in a zerg or for someone rather playing siege simulator, those builds are not fitting.

Summarized Alcast has builds for new players and builds for the elite players. If you do not fit those two groups, then do not use his builds. If you do, you are on a good way to perform well.
Additionaly, everyone needs to decide for himself, if he wants to perform well or just have fun and also need to check, if this matches the group you are playing with. As soon as you want to perform well as single individual or as group member, committing to the group is important, which means going for specific meta sets and specific skills. If you rather want to play your own build and are not ready to adapt for being helpful to the group, then you do not fit serious trial environment.

In the end, it is pretty dumb coming here to the forums to call out people for trying to perform well. It is mean from you to insult people, who try their best for the group, meanwhile you rather want to play a selfish tank. If your group tries seriously to perform well in trials, then they can expect from you to commit to the group. But you really seem to be the egoistic guy, who does not like to participate as group member or to adapt for the group purpose (this is visible, since you rather cared for your own survival than the group at all). In your conflict both sides are right, since the group expected something from you and you disappointed them. On the other hand, you had other expectations into the group (being casually and not striving for scores) and you got disappointed, that they didnt meet it. It was a good decision to leave for both sides, since you do not fit that group.

I cant even take you seriously.
All of youre supposition, paraphrasing.
Youre post has no substance.

Btw I really do not know, what you want to say with those three sentences (and it is not only about the "youre").

Vapirko wrote: »

Why do people rip on Alcast so much lately? Rip on players who get incorrectly elitist but Alcast has helped a lot of people start out and put a lot of time into it. You want to be the voice of diversity? Put out your own *** build page. He doesn’t claim to do anything but release OVERALL builds that will function the best the can over any dungeon or trial. He never says it’s the only way nor does he say it’s the absolute best in any given situation. Sheesh.

Tasear wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Why do people rip on Alcast so much lately? Rip on players who get incorrectly elitist but Alcast has helped a lot of people start out and put a lot of time into it. You want to be the voice of diversity? Put out your own *** build page. He doesn’t claim to do anything but release OVERALL builds that will function the best the can over any dungeon or trial. He never says it’s the only way nor does he say it’s the absolute best in any given situation. Sheesh.

Alcast getting bad rap because we all know his name. He has my sympathies.

But yeah there's a lot of talk here that is this point it hard to say direction of this thread.

So let's sum it up alcast isn't the bad guy. It's other people using poor guy out of context. He activity encourages players and helps them.

Op just wanted to be just judged by not color of his build but the skill of his character.

The conversation went astray into elistism, competitist and mechs.


The direction of thread is
A) we need more effects options
B.) We need different ways to judge effectiveness
C) How do we decide when a build is a burden to a team?


@Checkmath I would double check original post. Op is simply ranting about be excluded from content and how it's not fair.

As a class rep the note you might want to make is status of ice staff tanking and perception of community..

Also @Alcast OP didn't mean any harm or so I think.