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Overperforming absorb spam buffed yet again
Gravord
✭✭✭✭✭
Id really love to know why absorb spam, one of the things overperforming heavily since game launch, has been buffed once again.
Yes it can be crit now, but it also use mitigation from resist. Which not only nullifies crit but also reduces all damage taken by shield even more so. Lets take a look at numbers.
At average, not counting buffs and debuffs, light armor user have 15% physical and 20% magical resist. Medium armor 20% physical and 20% magical. Heavy 40% physical and 40% magical.
Base crit dmg bonus is 50%, templars and nightblades get additional 10% from passive. On rare occasion you can see player taking mundus for another 10%.
Character with impen gear have around 27% (7 impen pieces) to 30% (+impen shield) crit dmg reduction. That value can (and should) be buffed by Transmutation set by further 20% crit dmg mitigation. Which causes character to sit on safe 47-50% crit dmg reduction.
In battlegrounds and non cp Cyrodiil rarely anyone can build to anywhere near 50% crit chance, around 30% is realistic value. Which means more often than not damage done is flat out reduced comparing to before this change ranging from 15-40%, and when crit does happen it will be mostly ignored thanks to impen, or fully ignored if transmutation is present.
As can easily calculate from numbers above, even light armor user hit by physical dmg crit on his shield will ignore 43% from 50% of that crit, which will cause real dmg increase compared pre patch to be only 7% on crits, while non crits are a loss of 15%. It gets only worse with higher resist values which are easy to achieve.
So, @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel why absorb was buffed?
Yes it can be crit now, but it also use mitigation from resist. Which not only nullifies crit but also reduces all damage taken by shield even more so. Lets take a look at numbers.
At average, not counting buffs and debuffs, light armor user have 15% physical and 20% magical resist. Medium armor 20% physical and 20% magical. Heavy 40% physical and 40% magical.
Base crit dmg bonus is 50%, templars and nightblades get additional 10% from passive. On rare occasion you can see player taking mundus for another 10%.
Character with impen gear have around 27% (7 impen pieces) to 30% (+impen shield) crit dmg reduction. That value can (and should) be buffed by Transmutation set by further 20% crit dmg mitigation. Which causes character to sit on safe 47-50% crit dmg reduction.
In battlegrounds and non cp Cyrodiil rarely anyone can build to anywhere near 50% crit chance, around 30% is realistic value. Which means more often than not damage done is flat out reduced comparing to before this change ranging from 15-40%, and when crit does happen it will be mostly ignored thanks to impen, or fully ignored if transmutation is present.
As can easily calculate from numbers above, even light armor user hit by physical dmg crit on his shield will ignore 43% from 50% of that crit, which will cause real dmg increase compared pre patch to be only 7% on crits, while non crits are a loss of 15%. It gets only worse with higher resist values which are easy to achieve.
So, @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel why absorb was buffed?
1
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Gnozo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ye, I think he means harness.
It got nerved by the 40% hp limit and to make it absorb the same damage as before sorcs need about 23k resist and 3k crit resist wich is only possible with some really serious trade offs.2 -
Gravord✭✭✭✭✭SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »Is this supposed to be about Harness Magicka?
Its about every absorb ability, obviously.0 -
josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭Id really love to know why absorb spam, one of the things overperforming heavily since game launch, has been buffed once again.
Yes it can be crit now, but it also use mitigation from resist. Which not only nullifies crit but also reduces all damage taken by shield even more so. Lets take a look at numbers.
At average, not counting buffs and debuffs, light armor user have 15% physical and 20% magical resist. Medium armor 20% physical and 20% magical. Heavy 40% physical and 40% magical.
Base crit dmg bonus is 50%, templars and nightblades get additional 10% from passive. On rare occasion you can see player taking mundus for another 10%.
Character with impen gear have around 27% (7 impen pieces) to 30% (+impen shield) crit dmg reduction. That value can (and should) be buffed by Transmutation set by further 20% crit dmg mitigation. Which causes character to sit on safe 47-50% crit dmg reduction.
In battlegrounds and non cp Cyrodiil rarely anyone can build to anywhere near 50% crit chance, around 30% is realistic value. Which means more often than not damage done is flat out reduced comparing to before this change ranging from 15-40%, and when crit does happen it will be mostly ignored thanks to impen, or fully ignored if transmutation is present.
As can easily calculate from numbers above, even light armor user hit by physical dmg crit on his shield will ignore 43% from 50% of that crit, which will cause real dmg increase compared pre patch to be only 7% on crits, while non crits are a loss of 15%. It gets only worse with higher resist values which are easy to achieve.
So, @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel why absorb was buffed?
Why are still relying on crit damage in PvP? Build for base damage instead...I never build for crit in PvP anymore with impen being as common as it is...also your numbers are based on the fact people use 7 impen and transmutation...that is often not the case...they usually dont have transmutation and wear maybe 4 pieces most times....so...garbage numbers in, garbage numbers out.4 -
TheYKcid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You completely forgot to account for the fact that shields are affected by penetration now.
Deduct 5-10k off those armor values and redo your math. And/or post your leet Magsorc gameplay footage.
And don't act like Transmutation is anything close to meta on your average shield user. That's just plain disingenuous.Edited by TheYKcid on December 19, 2018 4:22PMPC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
Kalazar Chalhoub — Redguard Nord Stamplar
Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden11 -
Gnozo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Id really love to know why absorb spam, one of the things overperforming heavily since game launch, has been buffed once again.
Yes it can be crit now, but it also use mitigation from resist. Which not only nullifies crit but also reduces all damage taken by shield even more so. Lets take a look at numbers.
At average, not counting buffs and debuffs, light armor user have 15% physical and 20% magical resist. Medium armor 20% physical and 20% magical. Heavy 40% physical and 40% magical.
Base crit dmg bonus is 50%, templars and nightblades get additional 10% from passive. On rare occasion you can see player taking mundus for another 10%.
Character with impen gear have around 27% (7 impen pieces) to 30% (+impen shield) crit dmg reduction. That value can (and should) be buffed by Transmutation set by further 20% crit dmg mitigation. Which causes character to sit on safe 47-50% crit dmg reduction.
In battlegrounds and non cp Cyrodiil rarely anyone can build to anywhere near 50% crit chance, around 30% is realistic value. Which means more often than not damage done is flat out reduced comparing to before this change ranging from 15-40%, and when crit does happen it will be mostly ignored thanks to impen, or fully ignored if transmutation is present.
As can easily calculate from numbers above, even light armor user hit by physical dmg crit on his shield will ignore 43% from 50% of that crit, which will cause real dmg increase compared pre patch to be only 7% on crits, while non crits are a loss of 15%. It gets only worse with higher resist values which are easy to achieve.
So, @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel why absorb was buffed?
Why are still relying on crit damage in PvP? Build for base damage instead...I never build for crit in PvP anymore with impen being as common as it is...also your numbers are based on the fact people use 7 impen and transmutation...that is often not the case...they usually dont have transmutation and wear maybe 4 pieces most times....so...garbage numbers in, garbage numbers out.
The only class that can drop 1 or 2 pieces impen are stamnb for well fitted. Cause they avoid most of the damage.
But ignoring crit isnt really smart since its not only damage that benefits from crit multiplier. Crit heals are juicy af.
And i would say only 10% of Cyrodiil Population running around with 50% or more crit resist so crit damage will always be good. For damage and for healing.2 -
TheYKcid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
-Sharpened trait
-Sprinner's/Spriggan's
-Light armor Concentration passive
-Major Fracture (passively built into the toolkits of 3 stam classes)
-Major Breach (ele drain)
-Minor Fracture + Breach (PotL)
-Maces/mauls passive
-Destro skill 10% pen passive
How oh how indeed.Edited by TheYKcid on December 19, 2018 4:25PMPC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
Kalazar Chalhoub — Redguard Nord Stamplar
Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden12 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Shields have lower values in all content, casters will NOT achieve crit nullify, not even close and most people have enough penetration to pierce all the base resistence that light armor has.
If anything, shields are weaker than before. In pvp and even more so in pve. You can stack health and resistence, yes. But then you have even lower damage than before and I think magicka already had low enough damage in pvp. So this change only makes them even less viable.Edited by Dracane on December 19, 2018 4:28PMAuri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.5 -
iCaliban✭✭✭✭✭
✭
-Sharpened trait
-Sprinner's/Spriggan's
-Light armor Concentration passive
-Major Fracture (passively built into the toolkits of 3 stam classes)
-Major Breach (ele drain)
-Minor Fracture + Breach (PotL)
-Maces/mauls passive
-Destro skill 10% pen passive
How oh how indeed.
It is clearly impossible to have 5-10k pen in no cp pvp. Clearly. Impossible.1 -
Gravord✭✭✭✭✭-Sharpened trait
-Sprinner's/Spriggan's
-Light armor Concentration passive
-Major Fracture (passively built into the toolkits of 3 stam classes)
-Major Breach (ele drain)
-Minor Fracture + Breach (PotL)
-Maces/mauls passive
-Destro skill 10% pen passive
How oh how indeed.
Sharpen is out of meta from a long time. Spinner/spriggan same.
Major/minor fracture/breach will be off set by same buff on target.
Maces are not in much use in favor of daggers and axes.
That leaves destro passive only, for a stick users only and light armor passives. Thing is magical resist is higher than physical as you can see in first post. And that doesnt include templar passive, dk passive, breton passive, dunmer passive and so on.1 -
yodased✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Absorb skills i.e. magic shields?
Bleeds, oblivion damage, shieldbreaker.
Ggwp shield user.Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭-Sharpened trait
-Sprinner's/Spriggan's
-Light armor Concentration passive
-Major Fracture (passively built into the toolkits of 3 stam classes)
-Major Breach (ele drain)
-Minor Fracture + Breach (PotL)
-Maces/mauls passive
-Destro skill 10% pen passive
How oh how indeed.
Sharpen is out of meta from a long time. Spinner/spriggan same.
Major/minor fracture/breach will be off set by same buff on target.
Maces are not in much use in favor of daggers and axes.
That leaves destro passive only, for a stick users only and light armor passives. Thing is magical resist is higher than physical as you can see in first post. And that doesnt include templar passive, dk passive, breton passive, dunmer passive and so on.
Spinner/Spriggan out of meta? The set performs better now than it ever did.Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.14 -
Gnozo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Joy_Division wrote: »-Sharpened trait
-Sprinner's/Spriggan's
-Light armor Concentration passive
-Major Fracture (passively built into the toolkits of 3 stam classes)
-Major Breach (ele drain)
-Minor Fracture + Breach (PotL)
-Maces/mauls passive
-Destro skill 10% pen passive
How oh how indeed.
Sharpen is out of meta from a long time. Spinner/spriggan same.
Major/minor fracture/breach will be off set by same buff on target.
Maces are not in much use in favor of daggers and axes.
That leaves destro passive only, for a stick users only and light armor passives. Thing is magical resist is higher than physical as you can see in first post. And that doesnt include templar passive, dk passive, breton passive, dunmer passive and so on.
Spinner/Spriggan out of meta? The set performs better now than it ever did.
Sharpened is out of meta but as joy already said spinner/spriggans esspecially spriggans is used a lot now since shields can be penetrated. A Friend of mine runs his stamwarden with 18k phys pen and just cuts through every shield and defense.
And not using major fracture/breach isnt a really smart use....3 -
Gravord✭✭✭✭✭@Gravord how much time have you spent playing a shield-utilising class, in order to gain your deep insights into the balance situation pertaining to them?
Actually, don't answer. That was rhetorical.
"Absorb" pretty much gave it away.
What is the purpose of all abilities discussed in this topic? To "absorb" damage? Then not sure why you have such issue how its named.
But it is sort of entertaining to see how quickly baddies living only by abusing broken overperforming mechanics run to this topic to ridicule or run personal attacks from fear their ez mode could be possibly touched and actually changed into skill based balanced gameplay. We wouldnt want that, wouldnt we?0 -
Gravord✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »-Sharpened trait
-Sprinner's/Spriggan's
-Light armor Concentration passive
-Major Fracture (passively built into the toolkits of 3 stam classes)
-Major Breach (ele drain)
-Minor Fracture + Breach (PotL)
-Maces/mauls passive
-Destro skill 10% pen passive
How oh how indeed.
Sharpen is out of meta from a long time. Spinner/spriggan same.
Major/minor fracture/breach will be off set by same buff on target.
Maces are not in much use in favor of daggers and axes.
That leaves destro passive only, for a stick users only and light armor passives. Thing is magical resist is higher than physical as you can see in first post. And that doesnt include templar passive, dk passive, breton passive, dunmer passive and so on.
Spinner/Spriggan out of meta? The set performs better now than it ever did.
Sharpened is out of meta but as joy already said spinner/spriggans esspecially spriggans is used a lot now since shields can be penetrated. A Friend of mine runs his stamwarden with 18k phys pen and just cuts through every shield and defense.
And not using major fracture/breach isnt a really smart use....
Mate, please read with understanding. You use major fracture/breach, your target use major ward/resolve, one cancel another and math stays the same.0 -
TheYKcid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sharpened is BiS for your offensive mainbar, with the exceptions of 2H & the mainhand of DW, or if you happen to have several stat-scaling heals on your offensive bar (highly unlikely).
It provides the best raw damage by far, the only historical downside of which (not working against shields) ceased to apply since Murkmire.PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
Kalazar Chalhoub — Redguard Nord Stamplar
Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden2 -
sharquez✭✭✭✭✭
✭
So are you aware that your "moral high ground" on what sets are and are not "cancer" is probably leading you to the predicament you are in in the first place.
Use them, or don't but making another nerf thread wont make your build any better or make you a better player.
Do what YOU can do to fix the problem for your self within the confines of whats possible in the moment instead of begging zos to nerf everyone else's playstyle because you can't use your "fancy math skill" to help yourself figure our how to kill a light armor magicka user.4 -
Gravord✭✭✭✭✭
So are you aware that your "moral high ground" on what sets are and are not "cancer" is probably leading you to the predicament you are in in the first place.
Use them, or don't but making another nerf thread wont make your build any better or make you a better player.
Do what YOU can do to fix the problem for your self within the confines of whats possible in the moment instead of begging zos to nerf everyone else's playstyle because you can't use your "fancy math skill" to help yourself figure our how to kill a light armor magicka user.
So you saying its "balanced" that one character need to use 2 skills, specific glyphs, specific weapon traits and specific set or even two just to counter 1 button of another character? Interesting...
My moral highgrounds comes from being in this game since beta and seeing how repeatedly ZOS manage to implement broken, overperforming garbage that carries players of low to no skills by pressing 1-2 buttons and being able to kill anything while taking no damage on their own. Mother of all cancers started long, long ago with Bat swarms, it changed forms few times but continues to this day. Id like to, for a change, to see ESO improve, get past broken crap and create actually balanced combat, based on players skills, not by abusing one cancerous ez mode or another and believing it have anything to do with player skills.0 -
Sanctum74✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭So are you suggesting the game mechanics should be changed just because you refuse to use them?
Like it or not you need penetration to be effective in pvp and pve. Whether you get it from glyphs, weapons, mundus stone, skills, passives, cp, or armor sets it really doesn't matter there are plenty of available choices.
Making threads like this, refusing to use game mechanics, and then insulting people that don't agree with you serves nothing more than to make an entertaining thread with no actual substance to it, but hey I was entertained.
1 -
Gravord✭✭✭✭✭So are you suggesting the game mechanics should be changed just because you refuse to use them?
Like it or not you need penetration to be effective in pvp and pve. Whether you get it from glyphs, weapons, mundus stone, skills, passives, cp, or armor sets it really doesn't matter there are plenty of available choices.
Making threads like this, refusing to use game mechanics, and then insulting people that don't agree with you serves nothing more than to make an entertaining thread with no actual substance to it, but hey I was entertained.
Im suggesting that clearly broken game mechanics should be improved. Especially if something that was suppose to be nerfed ended up with a solid buff.
Edited by Gravord on December 19, 2018 5:49PM0 -
ZOS_RikardDadminGreetings!
We have had to remove and edit a few comments for being baiting, insulting, spam, or otherwise nonconstructive to this conversation.
Please remember to keep conversations civil and constructive in the future and take a moment to review our Community Rules Here.The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
Forum Rules | Code of Conduct | Terms of Service | Home Page | Help Site0 -
Sanctum74✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭So are you suggesting the game mechanics should be changed just because you refuse to use them?
Like it or not you need penetration to be effective in pvp and pve. Whether you get it from glyphs, weapons, mundus stone, skills, passives, cp, or armor sets it really doesn't matter there are plenty of available choices.
Making threads like this, refusing to use game mechanics, and then insulting people that don't agree with you serves nothing more than to make an entertaining thread with no actual substance to it, but hey I was entertained.
Im suggesting that clearly broken game mechanics should be improved. Especially if something that was suppose to be nerfed ended up with a solid buff.
The shield changes were definately a nerf to the traditional max magic builds which allowed sorcs to get huge shields and damage by only having to invest in one stat and not have to worry about health or resistance. Those builds are much squishier now and less effective so in that sense the nerf worked as intended.
The problem is just like with every other change people will find a way to make things work again and they do this by going with defensive sets, heavy armor, more hot's, and adding more health and resistances. Doing this comes at the expense of losing some damage so there are drawbacks.
Personally I think the bigger problem is the CP power creep, proc sets, performance problems, and zergs have forced people to build such tanky builds to survive long enough to be effective. Unfortunately I don't think there is an easy solution to these problems.
1 -
Gravord✭✭✭✭✭So are you suggesting the game mechanics should be changed just because you refuse to use them?
Like it or not you need penetration to be effective in pvp and pve. Whether you get it from glyphs, weapons, mundus stone, skills, passives, cp, or armor sets it really doesn't matter there are plenty of available choices.
Making threads like this, refusing to use game mechanics, and then insulting people that don't agree with you serves nothing more than to make an entertaining thread with no actual substance to it, but hey I was entertained.
Im suggesting that clearly broken game mechanics should be improved. Especially if something that was suppose to be nerfed ended up with a solid buff.
The shield changes were definately a nerf to the traditional max magic builds which allowed sorcs to get huge shields and damage by only having to invest in one stat and not have to worry about health or resistance. Those builds are much squishier now and less effective so in that sense the nerf worked as intended.
The problem is just like with every other change people will find a way to make things work again and they do this by going with defensive sets, heavy armor, more hot's, and adding more health and resistances. Doing this comes at the expense of losing some damage so there are drawbacks.
Personally I think the bigger problem is the CP power creep, proc sets, performance problems, and zergs have forced people to build such tanky builds to survive long enough to be effective. Unfortunately I don't think there is an easy solution to these problems.
Not really a nerf if by swapping to impen those builds make themselves much much harder to kill for the cost of what, 2k less magicka total or not even that? And now caught off shield they still have solid crit reduction and not so squishy to burst down.
Ofc you are right, ESO have plenty of other massive issues making pvp a mess with plenty things to abuse. But changes for the better have to start somewhere and last patch was suppose to tone down shields a bit, instead ended up making them stronger than ever. So far we discussed light armor builds mainly but keep in mind, for example heavy armor templar healer, basically locks himself on 50% mitigation AFTER debuffs are applied, with 50% crit dmg reduction and in practice his shield is 50% more powerfull than it was before the "nerf".
As for cps, they were always a mess and cause of many issues and im happy bgs are non cp. I keep my Cyro non cp aswell to have same gameplay as in bgs and keep it consistent.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »-Sharpened trait
-Sprinner's/Spriggan's
-Light armor Concentration passive
-Major Fracture (passively built into the toolkits of 3 stam classes)
-Major Breach (ele drain)
-Minor Fracture + Breach (PotL)
-Maces/mauls passive
-Destro skill 10% pen passive
How oh how indeed.
Sharpen is out of meta from a long time. Spinner/spriggan same.
Major/minor fracture/breach will be off set by same buff on target.
Maces are not in much use in favor of daggers and axes.
That leaves destro passive only, for a stick users only and light armor passives. Thing is magical resist is higher than physical as you can see in first post. And that doesnt include templar passive, dk passive, breton passive, dunmer passive and so on.
Spinner/Spriggan out of meta? The set performs better now than it ever did.
Exactly and may explain at least part of the reason OP is having an issue. Liking meta or not, we have to build for what works.
Considering this thread is from last month and has not reached a second page with OP responsible for 1/3 of the posts it seems shields are in a good place now.1 -
Gravord✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »-Sharpened trait
-Sprinner's/Spriggan's
-Light armor Concentration passive
-Major Fracture (passively built into the toolkits of 3 stam classes)
-Major Breach (ele drain)
-Minor Fracture + Breach (PotL)
-Maces/mauls passive
-Destro skill 10% pen passive
How oh how indeed.
Sharpen is out of meta from a long time. Spinner/spriggan same.
Major/minor fracture/breach will be off set by same buff on target.
Maces are not in much use in favor of daggers and axes.
That leaves destro passive only, for a stick users only and light armor passives. Thing is magical resist is higher than physical as you can see in first post. And that doesnt include templar passive, dk passive, breton passive, dunmer passive and so on.
Spinner/Spriggan out of meta? The set performs better now than it ever did.
Exactly and may explain at least part of the reason OP is having an issue. Liking meta or not, we have to build for what works.
Considering this thread is from last month and has not reached a second page with OP responsible for 1/3 of the posts it seems shields are in a good place now.
Still would love to know why something that suppose to be nerfed got buffed instead.0 -
jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »-Sharpened trait
-Sprinner's/Spriggan's
-Light armor Concentration passive
-Major Fracture (passively built into the toolkits of 3 stam classes)
-Major Breach (ele drain)
-Minor Fracture + Breach (PotL)
-Maces/mauls passive
-Destro skill 10% pen passive
How oh how indeed.
Sharpen is out of meta from a long time. Spinner/spriggan same.
Major/minor fracture/breach will be off set by same buff on target.
Maces are not in much use in favor of daggers and axes.
That leaves destro passive only, for a stick users only and light armor passives. Thing is magical resist is higher than physical as you can see in first post. And that doesnt include templar passive, dk passive, breton passive, dunmer passive and so on.
Spinner/Spriggan out of meta? The set performs better now than it ever did.
Exactly and may explain at least part of the reason OP is having an issue. Liking meta or not, we have to build for what works.
Considering this thread is from last month and has not reached a second page with OP responsible for 1/3 of the posts it seems shields are in a good place now.
Still would love to know why something that suppose to be nerfed got buffed instead.
Because Zenimax is utterly ignorant to the actual impact their changes have on the game, and cannot see the impact, even when it hits live and players are pointing it out?2
