Permafrost needs a counter in Battlegrounds

jediodyn_ESO · December 2018

It's game breaking. The lack of snare and root immunity has turned this into a AE kill machine. Moves with the caster, does ridiculous damage, snares, stuns, protects.... can't block it, can't dodge it, cant stealth it...

Not to mention that you can stack it with ice stack effect for extra Christmas spirit. So what is the countermove to this ZOS? Who thought this was a "balanced" ultimate?

So constructive suggestions:

1) could you please, you know, update the broken balance aspects of the game more frequently than once every 3 months? Most other decent MMO games test their PvP and do balance updates bi-weekly or at least monthly.

2) Consider making this move either snare and stun OR do a ton of damage, but not both or
3) Make this move not follow the caster around.

ChunkyCat · December 2018

Waffennacht · December 2018

You can block the stun, just like old fissure.

You can use shuffle

You can do a whole lot to prevent them from coming into range.

This snare hate montra is weird because everyone hated swift.

New Nerf threads every week it seems

CatchMeTrolling · December 2018

The damage is meh. Let’s not exaggerate.

wheem_ESO · December 2018

There are more counters for Permafrost than there are for Dawnbreaker. Not only is the total damage on Permafrost generally lower than it is on Dawnbreaker, but it's spread out over 8 seconds and gives you a 3 second heads up that a stun is coming. Oh and Dawnbreaker is quite a bit cheaper. I really wish all the Stam Wardens that I run into were running their class Ultimate instead.

Mrsinister2 · December 2018

Just break free and roll its not that bad and any ways it's the 3 dawnbreakers killing you not permafrost.

TrinityBreaker · December 2018

FM & immov pots. Go to town.

Vapirko · December 2018

Lol. Yeah permafrost sucks, that must be why every BGs and Cyro group, from duo to large scale uses it. It’s the worst. Huge AOE snare? Completely innefective. Stun after 3 ticks? Horrible. Damage mitigation? Take it or leave it. Solid damage ticks? Never hurt anyone.

Compared to EOTS it’s got a bigger radius, costs less, lasts longer, and provides three hugely beneficial effects. The damage doesn’t need a nerf, the mitigation is fine. But, the snare meta is out of control. And not everyone hated speed pots, only people who Xv1 or Zerged (it was a touch out of control but it was nerfed too much). The core issue is there are several very powerful AOE snare abilities ruling PvP right now and counterplay is lower than its ever been.

Aedrion · December 2018

There is something wrong with this skill. But in Cyrodiil, not BG's.

Personally, I think it's the fact that it offers too much all at once and that paired with several other skills wardens use in PvP, Permafrost is overperforming.

Perma itself is annoying but can be countered. However we don't see a warden running in with just this skill. It goes paired with shalks, proxy detonation and/or usually Steel Tornado.

Perma enables the use and landing of those other skills by slowing the opponent, then stunning them while also protecting yourself AND allies and dealing a good chunk of damage over long period of time. That is too much.

This skill will snare and stun entire groups with next to zero effort other than running into them, setting up very easy burst. Every decent guild runs multiple wardens and you will almost always see this skill on your death recap if you didn't have rapids or some other skill to un-snare you.

As above, this skill would serve being stationary or otherwise losing some duration and not buffing allies.

Waffennacht · December 2018

Aedrion wrote: »

There is something wrong with this skill. But in Cyrodiil, not BG's.

Personally, I think it's the fact that it offers too much all at once and that paired with several other skills wardens use in PvP, Permafrost is overperforming.

Perma itself is annoying but can be countered. However we don't see a warden running in with just this skill. It goes paired with shalks, proxy detonation and/or usually Steel Tornado.

Perma enables the use and landing of those other skills by slowing the opponent, then stunning them while also protecting yourself AND allies and dealing a good chunk of damage over long period of time. That is too much.

This skill will snare and stun entire groups with next to zero effort other than running into them, setting up very easy burst. Every decent guild runs multiple wardens and you will almost always see this skill on your death recap if you didn't have rapids or some other skill to un-snare you.

As above, this skill would serve being stationary or otherwise losing some duration and not buffing allies.

I would hate to see warden (or any class) lose viability (not so much Stam Warden but mag warden needs everything because it has so little by itself) because of Cyrodiil.

Cyrodiil has so much wrong with it, I'd rather balance around BGs

Iki · December 2018

Would it be enough if they removed stun-component from permafrost-morph? They could make it stamina-morph and instead of stunning, give +8% max stamina when slotted, like northern storm give max magicka. That way both morphs would be balanced instead of other being superior choice for pvp for both stam-and mag-wardens and then wardens would have to use something else to actually stun targets.

Without stun in permafrost I would consider it good and balanced ultimate and not deserving nerf requests, as it costs 200 ultimate and deals very modest dmg, without major protection none would use it.

frostz417 · December 2018

Snares/roots need a nerf. Plain and simple. Perma isn’t that OP imo because it’s a costly ult and doesn’t do much damage. It’s a utility. Only cancer in noCP because noCP is far more unbalanced than cp. since snares and roots are so overused with roll dodge/break free cp not being a thing and they cost like 5k to even use. So noCP is just a contest of who can snare/root/cc spam the most.

Stratforge · December 2018

It is obviously overperforming.

Minno · December 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

You can block the stun, just like old fissure.

You can use shuffle

You can do a whole lot to prevent them from coming into range.

This snare hate montra is weird because everyone hated swift.

New Nerf threads every week it seems

It won't be fun till it's Elder Standing Online lol

Vapirko · December 2018

wheem_ESO wrote: »

There are more counters for Permafrost than there are for Dawnbreaker. Not only is the total damage on Permafrost generally lower than it is on Dawnbreaker, but it's spread out over 8 seconds and gives you a 3 second heads up that a stun is coming. Oh and Dawnbreaker is quite a bit cheaper. I really wish all the Stam Wardens that I run into were running their class Ultimate instead.

Not a good comparison as they’re entirely different skills. Dawnbreaker is not an 8 meter radius AOE that offers major protection. So the different damage type makes sense. Yes the damage from perma is spread out but it also adds a ton of defense during that allowing you to go all out offensive. And the stun happens regardless of shuffle, so if you get snares even a little, 3 ticks happens real fast, never mind if you’re lagging. Honestly permafrost is every bit as effective as DBoS within their appropriate contexts. Imo permafrost is way more annoying to fight against. DBoS burst can be survived pretty easily, and the break free is reliable. Permafrost with the snare and then stun and huge radius pretty much just bogs you down until you’re dead. And you need to focus on your resources into casting shuffle, healing, breaking free, and that’s only if you can stay ahead of the caster which with the snare is very difficult to do. And stamwardens do use it. Ever been hit with permafrost and spwin to win? I’ll take DBoS any day.

Rikumaru · December 2018

Or maybe, you know make major expedition an actual buff? Maybe have snare immunity on actual useful skills outside of FM?

Joy_Division · December 2018

I'd much rather fight a Stam Warden using this than Dawnbreaker.

Aerem · December 2018

Iki wrote: »

Would it be enough if they removed stun-component from permafrost-morph? They could make it stamina-morph and instead of stunning, give +8% max stamina when slotted, like northern storm give max magicka. That way both morphs would be balanced instead of other being superior choice for pvp for both stam-and mag-wardens and then wardens would have to use something else to actually stun targets.

Without stun in permafrost I would consider it good and balanced ultimate and not deserving nerf requests, as it costs 200 ultimate and deals very modest dmg, without major protection none would use it.

Because stamwarden needs more damage or stuns available to them...

NuarBlack · December 2018

Vapirko wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

There are more counters for Permafrost than there are for Dawnbreaker. Not only is the total damage on Permafrost generally lower than it is on Dawnbreaker, but it's spread out over 8 seconds and gives you a 3 second heads up that a stun is coming. Oh and Dawnbreaker is quite a bit cheaper. I really wish all the Stam Wardens that I run into were running their class Ultimate instead.

Not a good comparison as they’re entirely different skills. Dawnbreaker is not an 8 meter radius AOE that offers major protection. So the different damage type makes sense. Yes the damage from perma is spread out but it also adds a ton of defense during that allowing you to go all out offensive. And the stun happens regardless of shuffle, so if you get snares even a little, 3 ticks happens real fast, never mind if you’re lagging. Honestly permafrost is every bit as effective as DBoS within their appropriate contexts. Imo permafrost is way more annoying to fight against. DBoS burst can be survived pretty easily, and the break free is reliable. Permafrost with the snare and then stun and huge radius pretty much just bogs you down until you’re dead. And you need to focus on your resources into casting shuffle, healing, breaking free, and that’s only if you can stay ahead of the caster which with the snare is very difficult to do. And stamwardens do use it. Ever been hit with permafrost and spwin to win? I’ll take DBoS any day.

DboS burst can only be survived if the player doing it is terribad and tries to do it to you while you are at 100% or you are crutching on CP. In BGs the only/best counter is to stun the warden when you see him activate Beatles and skedaddle. But he can still chase you down and still has Dbos.

Perma only gets you when you are already heavily entangled in fights with other stuff and taking other damage. Most of the times that I can't effectively counter permafrost or northern star it is because I didn't know I was actually in it because the graphic isn't very obvious when you are in the heat of group play. Add a telegraph marker on the ground like Eots and proxy det and the ultimate will be much less useful offensively, but still have its purpose of area denial and defensive use.

SilverPaws · December 2018

Jesus christ, you people must complain about everything... No the ulti is not overpowered.. Avoiding the full dmg from ulti is the easiest thing you can do, just dodge roll from it or use mist, or FM or streak.

TimeDazzler · December 2018

Ask yourself: is it the permafrost or is it the permafrost + all the other snares/immobilize spam going on?

Permafrost itself is fine, yea the aoe major protection is strong but for 200 ult it should be. If anything permafrost should have its snare reduced and cost reduced as well.

del9 · December 2018

Nerf threads are bad. And ults that cost 200 should give a lot of value. Regardless permafrost wins fights more than any other skill in BGs right now (maybe ice wall has a hand in it) so OP has a point.

jediodyn_ESO · December 2018

Alternatively, instead of “nerfing” permafrost, give us back the (much) longer snare immunity duration on shuffle/fm.

jaws343 · December 2018

IMO, the only thing it needs is an actual warning indicator like EOTS. A giant red circle that tells you a harmful effect is here. Because, more often than not, it is incredibly difficult to see the effect if a lot of action is going on.

Get_Packed · December 2018

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

It's game breaking. The lack of snare and root immunity has turned this into a AE kill machine. Moves with the caster, does ridiculous damage, snares, stuns, protects.... can't block it, can't dodge it, cant stealth it...

Not to mention that you can stack it with ice stack effect for extra Christmas spirit. So what is the countermove to this ZOS? Who thought this was a "balanced" ultimate?

So constructive suggestions:

1) could you please, you know, update the broken balance aspects of the game more frequently than once every 3 months? Most other decent MMO games test their PvP and do balance updates bi-weekly or at least monthly.

2) Consider making this move either snare and stun OR do a ton of damage, but not both or
3) Make this move not follow the caster around.

I play a magden that is usually top deeps in bg’s with a high mmr and I dont even use perma frost. Is it good, yes. Is it game breaking, nope.

Situational awareness is your friend.

Haashhtaag · December 2018

Should use miats cc tracker. Let’s you know when your affected by perma negate standard etc.

Waffennacht · December 2018

Get_Packed wrote: »

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

It's game breaking. The lack of snare and root immunity has turned this into a AE kill machine. Moves with the caster, does ridiculous damage, snares, stuns, protects.... can't block it, can't dodge it, cant stealth it...

Not to mention that you can stack it with ice stack effect for extra Christmas spirit. So what is the countermove to this ZOS? Who thought this was a "balanced" ultimate?

So constructive suggestions:

1) could you please, you know, update the broken balance aspects of the game more frequently than once every 3 months? Most other decent MMO games test their PvP and do balance updates bi-weekly or at least monthly.

2) Consider making this move either snare and stun OR do a ton of damage, but not both or
3) Make this move not follow the caster around.

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

It's game breaking. The lack of snare and root immunity has turned this into a AE kill machine. Moves with the caster, does ridiculous damage, snares, stuns, protects.... can't block it, can't dodge it, cant stealth it...

Not to mention that you can stack it with ice stack effect for extra Christmas spirit. So what is the countermove to this ZOS? Who thought this was a "balanced" ultimate?

So constructive suggestions:

1) could you please, you know, update the broken balance aspects of the game more frequently than once every 3 months? Most other decent MMO games test their PvP and do balance updates bi-weekly or at least monthly.

2) Consider making this move either snare and stun OR do a ton of damage, but not both or
3) Make this move not follow the caster around.

I play a magden that is usually top deeps in bg’s with a high mmr and I dont even use perma frost. Is it good, yes. Is it game breaking, nope.

Situational awareness is your friend.

Magden most definitely does not need any Nerfs.

Which is what I think you're saying and why I quoted you

Reverb · December 2018

The counter is Forward Momentum. If you’re not a 2h stam build, you’re doing BG wrong. For this patch anyway.

sharquez · December 2018

It's called rapid maneuvers and purge. There's something to be said about the viability of support builds like PVP tanks running these to keep the groups moving. Not everybody needs to be the kill master so if you can settle for not getting the top fragger then consider these options on a support build.

MalagenR · December 2018

Permafrost is absolutely not broken. If someone solo throws up permafrost on you, there are tons of ways to avoid dying. In a group setting, they are coordinating the root with other skills.

Any group in BG's that fights a premade running Permafrost is going to die a miserable death, it requires ultimate level counters, as they are also using ultimates.

You either need to negate, Atro Stun / Block, Resto Ult, or bomb their warden or one of their low hp DPS ulti users. But counters absolutely exist, and really only one player on your team is necessary to counter it, either with a negate or with a resto ult.