Tanking Shortage in Random Dungeon Finder - Give tanks a dungeon preview

thanoscopter

Not going to beat around the bush here. If you use Dungeon Finder it's clear that DPS and healers are waiting around in queue for a tank in order to start. As a tank, with numerous tanks on my account, I have taken the option to leave groups with issues since I can just log on a different tank and "try again". Still, I do find myself being thrown in the same exact dead end dungeon even up to 15-30 minutes later, which emphasizes how severe this shortage really is.

Low CP group trying to do DLC? I'll pass. Combined group DPS looking suspect on the first pull of a Vet Dungeon? I'm out of there. Partially cleared dungeon and/or struggling on a boss which resulted in previous tank leaving? Unless I want a drop, no amount of sweet talking in the first 10 seconds is retaining my services.

If nothing about this is done the leaving will continue and I'm sure there will be even more "fake tanks" that I see players raging about on these forums. The tanking shortage is a huge issue that most players are out of touch with because clearly most players aren't tanks. Tanks basically have a near instant queue all day and every day precisely because very little people play tanks and therefore understand the issues.

I propose that tanks, especially paying ESO+ members who have to deal with DLC randoms, be given a dungeon preview. I would want to see which dungeon, if it is partially completed, the time the players have been in there and the CP levels. This would give incentive to more tanks and get the potential groups in limbo actually moving. Let tanks decline these potential dungeons if we aren't comfortable with them.

I'd rather spend an extra 5 minutes finding a group that shows promise than being instantly thrown into a mess half the time. One thing is for sure, giving us a 15 minute cooldown for leaving a weak group is not helping move things along in Dungeon Finder, it is quite the opposite actually.

VaranisArano

Allowing tanks to preview/decline groups they aren't interested in isnt actually going to do a whole lot to help the groups using Groupfinder who need a tank.

I mean, it'll be great for the tank. Tanks get to dungeon-surf until they get their easy-peasy run. But it'll suck for anyone looking for a tank to run DLC dungeons.

LeagueTroll

Or make tank and healer’s vote more impactful, it needs to be:
1. Need all three agree to kick tank or healer.
2.but dd do not have the right to vote if vote kicking a dd.
This feature will surely solve the real tank shortage since us tanks don’t need to sit with these lazy free loaders and actually get a fast clear everytime.

Royaji

This just sounds like a very unhealthy idea. And don't get me wrong, I'm a tank who completely refuses to use groupfinder unless I'm queueing with a reliable DD I know. But giving every tank an option to just pick and choose the group he wants or does not want will not help anyone but said tank while deteriorating the experience for others.

In it's current form groupfinder is there to give you a group to do a dungeon (if you have selected random). If you have any kind of extra parametrs (and this is in regards to anyone - super casual roleplay run or a 10 minute no-death/speedrun/HM/no-under-50k-DPS-scrubs-alowed kind of stuff) you should probably form your own group.

Samsgaard

Six tanks, seen it all in PUGs. Sometimes it sucks, and sometimes you do have to bail on HM (or bail completely); but this attitude is toxic.

Also, why should only the tank get this preview? I bet a 1000 CP+ DPS would like to know something about the group before he decides to enter the dungeon and potentially have to carry the other three players. Why wouldn't the healer also be entitled to know what he's signing up for?

idk

As someone with multiple tanks I just do not understand the issue OP is having.

First of all, CP has little to do with it. There are plenty of CP capped players who are really bad and even some CP 160 players who are better than most CP capped players. So seeing CP pretty much tells you nothing.

The solution so simple. Form your own group. Any decent tank has at least one good guild to pull people from to run dungeons. That is what decent tanks do as they do not want to deal with bad dps. Even forming with a partial group give one some assurance the group will be ok.

I have no understanding why no one would want to run with a decent tank or why a decent tank could not find a decent guild.

VaranisArano

The general reasons I see for few tanks are, in no particular order:

1. Most players don't want the responsibility. Solution: ????

2. Most players don't enjoy tanking compared to DPS or another role. Solution: Would probably require reworking tanking, which ZOS may or may not be willing to do.

3. Tanks prefer to run with known friends or guildmates over randoms due to low DPS making runs a pain. Solution: Everyone has an idea for this one.

4. Swapping from tank gear/CP to do other content is a pain. Solution: ESO would have to create "loadouts" or something where we can swap between builds quickly in-game (no add-ons). However, this is unlikely with the way we are charged for CP and Skill resets.


Honestly, I think the solution to #3 is for ZOS to teach players how to do better DPS. An in-game constant DPS counter would be a good start, followed by actual tutorials about DPS rotations.

idk

VaranisArano wrote: »

The general reasons I see for few tanks are, in no particular order:

1. Most players don't want the responsibility. Solution: ????

2. Most players don't enjoy tanking compared to DPS. Solution: Would probably require reworking tanking, which ZOS may or may not be willing to do.

3. Tanks prefer to run with known friends or guildmates over randoms due to low DPS making runs a pain. Solution: Everyone has an idea for this one.

4. Swapping from tank gear/CP to do other content is a pain. Solution: ESO would have to create "loadouts" or something where we can swap between builds quickly in-game (no add-ons). However, this is unlikely with the way we are charged for CP and Skill resets.


Honestly, I think the solution to #3 is for ZOS to teach players how to do better DPS. An in-game constant DPS counter would be a good start, followed by actual tutorials about DPS rotations.

Your third point comes closest to the answer.

Most tanks of decent or better skill do not want to use the GF because of how often they find bad dps. They choose to avoid it and they do not have to use it.

Decent tanks have guilds to run with and are often asked to join a group. A decent tank choses to run with decent players.

It really is that simple.

LeagueTroll

VaranisArano wrote: »

The general reasons I see for few tanks are, in no particular order:

1. Most players don't want the responsibility. Solution: ????

2. Most players don't enjoy tanking compared to DPS. Solution: Would probably require reworking tanking, which ZOS may or may not be willing to do.

3. Tanks prefer to run with known friends or guildmates over randoms due to low DPS making runs a pain. Solution: Everyone has an idea for this one.

4. Swapping from tank gear/CP to do other content is a pain. Solution: ESO would have to create "loadouts" or something where we can swap between builds quickly in-game (no add-ons). However, this is unlikely with the way we are charged for CP and Skill resets.


Honestly, I think the solution to #3 is for ZOS to teach players how to do better DPS. An in-game constant DPS counter would be a good start, followed by actual tutorials about DPS rotations.

Community should self regulate. Also zos already gave build suggestions long ago. And you still see snipe spammers. Some players even complain on forum about skill suggestions, says it’s intrusive. Zos done try teaching them. What need to be done next is make tank and healer kick bad dd easier.

thanoscopter

VaranisArano wrote: »

Allowing tanks to preview/decline groups they aren't interested in isnt actually going to do a while lot to help the groups using Groupfinder who need a tank.

I mean, it'll be great for the tank. Tanks get to dungeon-surf until they get their easy-peasy run. But it'll suck for anyone looking for a tank to run DLC dungeons.

There's your problem, people who are looking for a tank to run em through DLC. Unless it's pledge day, get a friend for that.

Most issues why groups fail are way beyond the tanks control. Real example, about 15 minutes ago, I queued for the pledge, Crypt of Hearts 2 as a tank. Group has a CP 500+ healer, two CP 700+ "DPS" and I'm a 810 CP tank. I thought this would be an easy steamroll then one of the CP 700+ DPS was wearing a sword & shield and said he is new to tanking. I called him out on queuing as a DPS in order to tank and he quickly left..but the other people left due to low DPS right after him assuming the tank had just left.

So basically, to sum up the above, I'm the guy who did my job, queued correctly and stayed until the end while the DPS and healer left due to low DPS when the reason DPS was low should have been obvious. The low DPS player who queued incorrectly had left so this was a fixable issue. So I was put on a cooldown to find another group. Why did I deserve a 15 minute cooldown again?

Let's add to my suggestions about the dungeon preview and just remove the tank requeue cooldown altogether.

VaranisArano

idk wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

The general reasons I see for few tanks are, in no particular order:

1. Most players don't want the responsibility. Solution: ????

2. Most players don't enjoy tanking compared to DPS. Solution: Would probably require reworking tanking, which ZOS may or may not be willing to do.

3. Tanks prefer to run with known friends or guildmates over randoms due to low DPS making runs a pain. Solution: Everyone has an idea for this one.

4. Swapping from tank gear/CP to do other content is a pain. Solution: ESO would have to create "loadouts" or something where we can swap between builds quickly in-game (no add-ons). However, this is unlikely with the way we are charged for CP and Skill resets.


Honestly, I think the solution to #3 is for ZOS to teach players how to do better DPS. An in-game constant DPS counter would be a good start, followed by actual tutorials about DPS rotations.

Your third point comes closest to the answer.

Most tanks of decent or better skill do not want to use the GF because of how often they find bad dps. They choose to avoid it and they do not have to use it.

Decent tanks have guilds to run with and are often asked to join a group. A decent tank choses to run with decent players.

It really is that simple.

#3 iscertainly the answer I hear the most often among the people who actually like the tank role.

So fewer players want to tank in the first place.

And then of the players who like to tank, fewer of them are willing to put up with randoms in Groupfinder. And as you say, many have no trouble finding solid groups in their guilds, so they have little incentive to use groupfinder.

And thus we have a shortage of tanks in Groupfinder.

thanoscopter

idk wrote: »

As someone with multiple tanks I just do not understand the issue OP is having.

First of all, CP has little to do with it. There are plenty of CP capped players who are really bad and even some CP 160 players who are better than most CP capped players. So seeing CP pretty much tells you nothing.

The solution so simple. Form your own group. Any decent tank has at least one good guild to pull people from to run dungeons. That is what decent tanks do as they do not want to deal with bad dps. Even forming with a partial group give one some assurance the group will be ok.

I have no understanding why no one would want to run with a decent tank or why a decent tank could not find a decent guild.

You don't understand my issue because a few sentences later you basically said you only run with guildies/premade groups because that is what decent tanks do.

The title is about Dungeon Finder, the tank shortage and improving the queuing process for tanks since no one clearly wants to do this. I'm trying to fix the problem, you are running away from it IMO.

idk

VaranisArano wrote: »

idk wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

The general reasons I see for few tanks are, in no particular order:

1. Most players don't want the responsibility. Solution: ????

2. Most players don't enjoy tanking compared to DPS. Solution: Would probably require reworking tanking, which ZOS may or may not be willing to do.

3. Tanks prefer to run with known friends or guildmates over randoms due to low DPS making runs a pain. Solution: Everyone has an idea for this one.

4. Swapping from tank gear/CP to do other content is a pain. Solution: ESO would have to create "loadouts" or something where we can swap between builds quickly in-game (no add-ons). However, this is unlikely with the way we are charged for CP and Skill resets.


Honestly, I think the solution to #3 is for ZOS to teach players how to do better DPS. An in-game constant DPS counter would be a good start, followed by actual tutorials about DPS rotations.

Your third point comes closest to the answer.

Most tanks of decent or better skill do not want to use the GF because of how often they find bad dps. They choose to avoid it and they do not have to use it.

Decent tanks have guilds to run with and are often asked to join a group. A decent tank choses to run with decent players.

It really is that simple.

#3 iscertainly the answer I hear the most often among the people who actually like the tank role.

So fewer players want to tank in the first place.

And then of the players who like to tank, fewer of them are willing to put up with randoms in Groupfinder. And as you say, many have no trouble finding solid groups in their guilds, so they have little incentive to use groupfinder.

And thus we have a shortage of tanks in Groupfinder.

The same can be said about a skilled player and healer.

I have never had an issue grouping in any role. I want to dps a dungeon, I go to guild and form the group, or answer the call for one that is forming. I want to heal, same thing.

If you want to group with players there is no excuse to not being in a guild. There is no excuse to not taking the time to form your own group.

If you refuse to do such things and expect Zos to form the group with you then you are asking for the dice roll you get.

Short story. Sometimes we queue with 3 people. The rare occasion we queue without a tank we stand to get a tank that taunts and plays with only one mob in a group. and leave the other 6 for us. I figure that is the type of tank that has to use GF.

AlienatedGoat

I'll only queue tank in Group Finder if I have a DPS buddy with me.

They can easily carry the dungeon if the second DPS we pull is a dud.

Otherwise, I stay the hell away from Group Finder as a tank. I have better ways to waste my time.

TheDarkShadow

If you only want to tank specific dungeons, choose specific dungeons. If you want to tank for specific group, form a premade. Or do what you are doing, leave group. You want to be picky and take easy ways but also want to get the reward for taking risk outside of your comfort zone? I don't think it's fair.

Silver_Strider

I've heard of Tank privilege but this seems excessive. Random Dungeon Finder is called Random for a reason and while it's understandable that some dungeons are difficult, that's hardly justification for letting people pick and choose their dungeon while people get stuck waiting for someone to come along.

If anything, this type of behavior should be punished by making the queue penalty not expire on a character unless you're actively on that character.

dazee

Maybe a better idea would be to improve the state of tanking in ESO? Last I checked, tanks did pathetic damage (YES THAT IS IMPORTANT, of course a tank should not do as much dps as a dps on the same gear and build quality) and had limited options for tanking high end content (Sword and shield on one bar or gtfo).

If this has changed I'd be delighted but I've recieved no news so far to inform me of a change.

Striken7

If the problem is...

thanoscopter wrote: »

...that DPS and healers are waiting around in queue for a tank in order to start.

then giving tanks the choice to skip groups/dungeons they don't want will literally only make that worse. How is that not completely obvious? Or is this a joke? The sarcasm isn't clear in the OP.

thanoscopter

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I've heard of Tank privilege but this seems excessive. Random Dungeon Finder is called Random for a reason and while it's understandable that some dungeons are difficult, that's hardly justification for letting people pick and choose their dungeon while people get stuck waiting for someone to come along.

If anything, this type of behavior should be punished by making the queue penalty not expire on a character unless you're actively on that character.

Any tank that is solo queuing random veteran PUGs is not looking for an easy ride. Even if going the specific dungeon route, snagging some of the hard modes for pledges can be very taxing on the tank if the heals and DPS are subpar.

I did the CoH 2 HM today and had to tank a few batches of shades and up to 8 shades due to players not understanding the HM. Similarly, when I did Banished Cells 2 hard mode in a PUG I had to manage tanking 6 Daedras instead of the required 3. If anything, I should be getting 3 keys instead of 2 since I did the work of two tanks on each of the hard modes.

See, I'm willing to carry a little, but not make heroic efforts to drag a subpar group through a dungeon they had no business queuing up for. It ultimately comes down to time investment and if it is not looking like a reasonable investment of time from the start then I will indeed leave.

Experienced tanks can tell the flops from the successes on the first pull. Even when second and third chances are given, that is no guarantee the group can complete. If the tank doesn't leave first, often the healer or DPS will and sometimes it will be mid-run leaving you with the DPS who couldn't cut the mustard and waiting for the group to fill back up.

thanoscopter

Striken7 wrote: »

If the problem is...

thanoscopter wrote: »

...that DPS and healers are waiting around in queue for a tank in order to start.

then giving tanks the choice to skip groups/dungeons they don't want will literally only make that worse. How is that not completely obvious? Or is this a joke? The sarcasm isn't clear in the OP.

A good portion of the random dungeons I join are partially completed DLC dungeons where the DPS did not cut the mustard so the tank decided to peace out. The current system places tanks queuing for randoms in these type of groups non-stop.

I've witnessed this many times first hand. A little while ago I got slapped into a partially completed vet Blood Root Forge group wiping to first boss when it was not even the pledge. These were relatively low CP guys too. The healer said "please man, don't leave, I need Earthgore" right when I joined. The warning signs were all present and it would be nice to avoid these type of groups by seeing a preview. It was clear the healer was dragging unwilling victims through a non-pledge DLC simply for a helmet.

If us tanks are going on cooldown because we choose to leave dead end dungeons, that means other players waiting to do easy to PUG vet dungeons and pledges have to wait longer for us.

Kanar

As a DD who sometimes tanks, yeah the problem is crappy DDs. It has totally killed my desire to tank, even with the instant queue. It is just so fruatrating to get stuck with 20k (or less sometimes) group DPS.

I'd rather wait an hour as DD.

Jeremy

thanoscopter wrote: »

Not going to beat around the bush here. If you use Dungeon Finder it's clear that DPS and healers are waiting around in queue for a tank in order to start. As a tank, with numerous tanks on my account, I have taken the option to leave groups with issues since I can just log on a different tank and "try again". Still, I do find myself being thrown in the same exact dead end dungeon even up to 15-30 minutes later, which emphasizes how severe this shortage really is.

Low CP group trying to do DLC? I'll pass. Combined group DPS looking suspect on the first pull of a Vet Dungeon? I'm out of there. Partially cleared dungeon and/or struggling on a boss which resulted in previous tank leaving? Unless I want a drop, no amount of sweet talking in the first 10 seconds is retaining my services.

If nothing about this is done the leaving will continue and I'm sure there will be even more "fake tanks" that I see players raging about on these forums. The tanking shortage is a huge issue that most players are out of touch with because clearly most players aren't tanks. Tanks basically have a near instant queue all day and every day precisely because very little people play tanks and therefore understand the issues.

I propose that tanks, especially paying ESO+ members who have to deal with DLC randoms, be given a dungeon preview. I would want to see which dungeon, if it is partially completed, the time the players have been in there and the CP levels. This would give incentive to more tanks and get the potential groups in limbo actually moving. Let tanks decline these potential dungeons if we aren't comfortable with them.

I'd rather spend an extra 5 minutes finding a group that shows promise than being instantly thrown into a mess half the time. One thing is for sure, giving us a 15 minute cooldown for leaving a weak group is not helping move things along in Dungeon Finder, it is quite the opposite actually.

A lot of tanks are like this, currently. Since they are in such demand they have no patience for beginner groups and just "instance jump" till they find a solid group.

That's one of the reasons I started tanking more regularly. Is it rough sometimes? Sure, it can be. On Xal-Nur the other day I literally had over a half dozen trolls on me and the boss. But it's good to go through hell now and again. It keeps you from becoming soft.

Anyway - I don't really object to giving players the option to avoid groups already in progress when they queue up. That seems a reasonable request to me, even though I wouldn't use it because I like to help out.

Tan9oSuccka

People are on a roll with bad ideas.

My goodness

Jeremy

dazee wrote: »

Maybe a better idea would be to improve the state of tanking in ESO? Last I checked, tanks did pathetic damage (YES THAT IS IMPORTANT, of course a tank should not do as much dps as a dps on the same gear and build quality) and had limited options for tanking high end content (Sword and shield on one bar or gtfo).

If this has changed I'd be delighted but I've recieved no news so far to inform me of a change.

Tanks are always a minority. That's true of any MMORPG because a majority of players prefer offensive play styles.

But it's worse on this game than others. And I believe the reason for that is this game's blocking mechanisms. It's overly punishing and dissuades even more players from playing the role. And in their defense, it is pretty ridiculous. Especially on certain bosses - where a single stray animation (and sometimes they lag and don't even load on your screen) can kill you instantly. Not to mention they can be hard to see with all the spell effects and giant pets sitting on top of you. Words cannot express how much I hate that fat alligator Daedra when I"m tanking.

usmcjdking

I don't have this issue.

I also don't walk into a pug with Ebon & Alkosh and expect great things to happen.

UPrime

Without preventing "fake tanks" all it will do is encourage dps to queue as tank.

Arunei

OP, how will this benefit anyone other than you/other tanks? If tanks have the ability to 'preview' a dungeon and see what they think is a worthless effort, that only works in your favor. This idea does nothing to fix the overall issue, in the fact that a lot of players are intimidated by playing a tank, and only serves to let you get away with the least amount of work.

How does this help the people stuck in a dungeon who need a tank but can't get one because all the tanks are using this 'preview' option and not even giving the group inside the dungeon a chance? You can't look at CP numbers and judge the player's ability on those alone. A friend and I who were in vFH about a week ago got a healer who had 1,116 CP, but they acted like they were completely new to the game. They hardly healed, didn't really use any wards or buffs, kept melting seconds after the fight with the last boss started, kept accepting rezzes in the middle of AOE that just killed them again two seconds later...while I've seen lower CP players excel at the game.

And before you say anything, yes, I have a tank, and I've only come across this issue a few times when pugging groups (it mostly happened during the Undaunted event). If this idea did anything to actually help everyone and not just cater to tanks, I'd be more for it. What we need is some sort of incentive for people to learn how to tank and play that role, not for some system that punishes everyone playing a healer or DD.

starkerealm

idk wrote: »

As someone with multiple tanks I just do not understand the issue OP is having.

Oh, I understand their issue. It's pure toxicity.

They don't want to get matched in with players who don't meet their exacting, and unrealistic, demands. They're asking for the ability to play kingmaker in the random vet queue; because, as the tank, their time is more valuable than the mere mortals queuing for DPS.

MartiniDaniels

Just got queued on my hybrid tank in Darkshade caverns 2 with cp16, cp20 and cp 158.

After first group of mobs, cp158 asked wtf when I'll began tanking. I left him to explore that wonderful dungeon with all those irritating (for newbie dps guys) mechanics on his own and went to complete a couple of New year writs, after that immediately got to CoA2 with cp810 dps which killed so fast that dung was completed in 10 minutes max. It's good to be a tank

central_scrutinizer

What a primadonna. You probably shouldn't even bother with the random finder if you can't handle getting a random group without pitching a tantrum.

Ackwalan

I use dungeon finder on my tank all the time. Instead of getting frustrated and leaving when a group is doing poorly, I take the time to explain the boss fight. Lots of people don't like to ask questions, because lots of people will kick the inexperienced player. Taking a few minuets to explain the fight can save everyone a lot of frustration. You'll still get those people that don't listen, but you'll have more success then failure by not being "that guy".