Need DPS diversity ASAP

Tannus15 · December 2018

Ehhh, it's not quite as clear cut as people make it out to be.

It's true, Relequen and Siroria are the best sets by far at killing a target skelly. They get amazing results on Ra Parseu and if you're the lucky fellow that doesn't have to kill the adds on Valariel you're golden.

But both of those sets have large draw backs which the harder trials enforce.

Relequen uptime on St Olms? Not so great. Good luck staying in your pretty little circle in there either.
Same for the twins.
Same for the Reassembly Commitee

The problem with Siroria? Your burst sucks unless you've got enough stacks up.
The problem with Relequen? Everytime you need to re-target something your dps drops off drastically.

Yes, those 2 sets are super strong, but only if you can use them correctly and they will ALWAYS look better on a skelly.

That said: I do think Relequen, in particular is too strong
I can make non siroria builds work and be "close" to siroria dps. Close enough that not having to manage the ground buff makes other builds viable.
Relequen on the other hand is overwhelmingly strong. You should have the "proc from light attacking" make up 10%+ of your total dps.

usmcjdking · December 2018

Nestor wrote: »

So, we set the Meta at 100%. "Off" builds in this game are only down 1% to 5%. If you have a perfect rotation, this will matter to you, a little, doing Vet Hardmode Trials and a lot for Leaderboard times. If competitive Trials are your cup of Tea (even if just measuring against your self), then, yes, unfortunately, there are not as many choices as people would like. For every other type of content out there, there are dozens of effective builds.

Can you make a crap build? Yes, of course, there are obvious bad combos. And there are some sets of gear that make me scratch my head. But most gear can be paired with some skill rotation and tactics to do serious DPS numbers. Its just there are more build choices than most people think if you are tolerant of small DPS differences.

Or, ZOS could remove DPS differences at the 90% to 95% Percentile with a Damage Cap. That would remove the incentive to chase the ultimate amount of DPS for those competitive situations. And people would be encouraged, not forced, to try different builds. However, the only way they could smoothly add a bunch of new types of weapons, and even sets, without causing gear related turmoil, would be to somehow cap damage.

All that being said, I would like to see different weapon types for both Magic and Stamina, and related skills to those weapon types. Some gear sets are good, some need to be tweaked, some need to be rethought, new ones could be added.

Diminishing returns on literally everything except max stat would literally cap the damage.

Perwulf · December 2018

Agreed.

If you don't follow meta, you're a cookie cutter dps. Basically, majority of people using the same type of weapons, sets and skill set.

mocap · December 2018

how about healing diversity? You can DPS with different skills, well, at least with different visual animation ) And healers, they stuck with Combat Mutasprings like forever, useless in every dungeon except DLC and trials.

templesus · December 2018

Why are you talking about balancing sets when groups are still consisting of 8 magblades dps in mini trials and 8 stam/magblades dps in regular trials for score runs?

They don’t need to worry about sets. They need to worry about balancing the classes.

BeefyMrTips · December 2018

mocap wrote: »

how about healing diversity? You can DPS with different skills, well, at least with different visual animation ) And healers, they stuck with Combat Mutasprings like forever, useless in every dungeon except DLC and trials.

Excellent point, maybe a skill line could be Druid? Shaman? Etc that makes sense to me. I’m referencing an earlier post that talks about creating multiple skill lines but only choosing one to follow.

I believe tanks and healers have every right to customize as well, I just am not one and so I could not speak on it, glad you brought it up

Faulgor · December 2018

IMO they should approach it like this: Think of staple RPG classes, and figure out a way to make them fun and viable in ESO.

Barbarian? Knight? Cryomancer? Necromancer? Battlemage? Archer?

Because right now, every stamina DPS is a rogue with dw/bow, and every magicka DPS is a mage with destro/destro.
Some other builds might be theoretically possible, and a 6k difference is maybe not much to some people, but if you can barely get to 30k, 6k is a lot.

josiahva · December 2018

BeefyMrTips wrote: »

I can only speak for PVE DPS but may effect PVP as well.

Every character has a preset loadout. It’s hidden by ideas such as *different sets* *champ points* etc but the fact is, it’s non sense.

If I make a new class, I already know what sets, champ points, etc I need for maximum potential DPS. I have about 4-5 toons that are cookie cutter toons and it sucks to simply keep up every patch..

I don’t understand why we can’t create characters and develop them in different uniquely ways to hit similar DPS? It’s just not fun and I’ve about exhausted every route I can take with multiple sets and rotations to at least change things up a bit and it simply doesn’t work. I can’t fathom playing this game another patch if this next patch doesn’t offer something substantial.

I’d rather have no more new lands to explore and would prefer to have new character options.

Maybe out of your three main skill lines you can choose one to become a master in unlocking a third morph tier? Or how about instead of just vampire and werewolf we offer different schools that you can train in but you can only choose one. It would need a massive overhaul that would take time and change the game for sure but at least it would be better than the former game idea: New Trial Beat it, New Set get it, change of resources so modify rotation and add different enchant. Changing up passives will not be good enough

Stop worrying about max DPS and just build what you want to play. Accept the fact that not every character you make is suitable for trials and get the max out of unique builds. The meta isn't an issue if you dont build to it and contribute to the problem.

Vahrokh · December 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

MarleyRain wrote: »

When my top raiding guilds will only let mag nb or Stam nb in, this is not ok. They will let one sorc in the run MAYBE. How can this be acceptable? All other classes are basically left out of this type of content DPS wise.

Question.

Is it that no other classes can possibly complete the content your trials guild runs?

Or is it that your trials guild only wants whatever flavor of the month is best in slot at the moment?

Because the first option can be addressed by buffing other classes until they can complete the content.

The second option can only be fixed by finding another trials guild, because FOTM meta chasers are always going to chase the meta and thus always exclude whoever isnt BIS at the moment.

Yes, you find another trials guild and they demand the same.

Or, you can "choose" to stay in a guild that is stuck at normal mode vMOL and Craglorn trials.

Vahrokh · December 2018

MarleyRain wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

MarleyRain wrote: »

When my top raiding guilds will only let mag nb or Stam nb in, this is not ok. They will let one sorc in the run MAYBE. How can this be acceptable? All other classes are basically left out of this type of content DPS wise.

Question.

Is it that no other classes can possibly complete the content your trials guild runs?

Or is it that your trials guild only wants whatever flavor of the month is best in slot at the moment?

Because the first option can be addressed by buffing other classes until they can complete the content.

The second option can only be fixed by finding another trials guild, because FOTM meta chasers are always going to chase the meta and thus always exclude whoever isnt BIS at the moment.

It's because only Stam or mag nb are hitting 70k+ raid parses. We are pushing the most difficult content so obviously they'll want the people pulling highest numbers. Nbs have been op for awhile now imo. But I completely agree other classes could complete the content just not as efficiently, highest scores etc. Like I said before this doesn't seem right when there are 4 other classes that can't even compare to those numbers.

This person knows what's he/she's talking about.

Think about this: in one of my guilds, if we allow mags sorc or other lesser specs to play, they do 320k DPS at Rakhat (vMOL) and often require two backyard runs.

If we let play the "alpha male" classes (by the same players!!!) and specs (more or less the same since a good while), they do 370k DPS or more and can "open" the path to hm vMOL as the "pros" do it.

It's that simple. As long as lesser classes (and builds) perform less than the dominant ones, the "small" differences pile up as a whole trial group and the outcome is drastically different.

Vaelen · December 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

So, we set the Meta at 100%. "Off" builds in this game are only down 1% to 5%. If you have a perfect rotation, this will matter to you, a little, doing Vet Hardmode Trials and a lot for Leaderboard times. If competitive Trials are your cup of Tea (even if just measuring against your self), then, yes, unfortunately, there are not as many choices as people would like. For every other type of content out there, there are dozens of effective builds.

Can you make a crap build? Yes, of course, there are obvious bad combos. And there are some sets of gear that make me scratch my head. But most gear can be paired with some skill rotation and tactics to do serious DPS numbers. Its just there are more build choices than most people think if you are tolerant of small DPS differences.

Or, ZOS could remove DPS differences at the 90% to 95% Percentile with a Damage Cap. That would remove the incentive to chase the ultimate amount of DPS for those competitive situations. And people would be encouraged, not forced, to try different builds. However, the only way they could smoothly add a bunch of new types of weapons, and even sets, without causing gear related turmoil, would be to somehow cap damage.

All that being said, I would like to see different weapon types for both Magic and Stamina, and related skills to those weapon types. Some gear sets are good, some need to be tweaked, some need to be rethought, new ones could be added.

Diminishing returns on literally everything except max stat would literally cap the damage.

And just how will they cap the damage, even with diminishing returns? If they do it to spell/physical damage and penetration then I'll just stack 8+ DoTs and I'll be able to bypass the damage caps. Heck DoT builds would probably become the new META if they implement damage caps and/or diminishing returns because it would impact and nerf most heavy hitting direct damage builds the most.

Aebaradath · December 2018

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

You can actually make different "non meta" builds (that get meta dps numbers), you just need to experiment on the PTS a good bit. I tried sharing my builds before but I received a LOT of hate for it so I stopped sharing them.

You know how Meta-sheep are. If you're not using the boring snoozefest BiS gear, your build is automatically bad in their eyes, regardless of the high DPS you can do.

Vaelen · December 2018

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

You can actually make different "non meta" builds (that get meta dps numbers), you just need to experiment on the PTS a good bit. I tried sharing my builds before but I received a LOT of hate for it so I stopped sharing them.

You know how Meta-sheep are. If you're not using the boring snoozefest BiS gear, your build is automatically bad in their eyes, regardless of the high DPS you can do.

Like someone else said, it's all math and numbers. Most of the hardcore players have already theorycrafted every single gear set combination and build out there for each class, and the Meta Police are just following the numbers which is 25k DPS min at this point in the game. But as the CP cap increases, the Meta Police just raise the min required DPS to play cooperatively in dungeons and trials, because honestly I think ZOS either nerfs builds or buffs the dungeons and trials periodically to keep it a challenge.

Vahrokh · December 2018

Vaelen wrote: »

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

You can actually make different "non meta" builds (that get meta dps numbers), you just need to experiment on the PTS a good bit. I tried sharing my builds before but I received a LOT of hate for it so I stopped sharing them.

You know how Meta-sheep are. If you're not using the boring snoozefest BiS gear, your build is automatically bad in their eyes, regardless of the high DPS you can do.

Like someone else said, it's all math and numbers. Most of the hardcore players have already theorycrafted every single gear set combination and build out there for each class, and the Meta Police are just following the numbers which is 25k DPS min at this point in the game. But as the CP cap increases, the Meta Police just raise the min required DPS to play cooperatively in dungeons and trials, because honestly I think ZOS either nerfs builds or buffs the dungeons and trials periodically to keep it a challenge.

The current meta is not 25k. A NON competitive guild is going to ask 40k DPS for mag specs and 45k for stam specs, or GO HOME.

usmcjdking · December 2018

Faulgor wrote: »

IMO they should approach it like this: Think of staple RPG classes, and figure out a way to make them fun and viable in ESO.

Barbarian? Knight? Cryomancer? Necromancer? Battlemage? Archer?

Because right now, every stamina DPS is a rogue with dw/bow, and every magicka DPS is a mage with destro/destro.
Some other builds might be theoretically possible, and a 6k difference is maybe not much to some people, but if you can barely get to 30k, 6k is a lot.

The problem isn't class variety, the problem is ROLE diversity.

Now, compared to two years ago, there are some more 'roles' in endgame that are desireable, but they are almost always "gear/set" based roles, not "skill selection" based roles. VCR is the only trial to me that IMO has any role diversity with the whole downstairs & execute defile that demands healing way beyond what two healers can provide. But those are two instances in a very mechanic heavy fight.

TBH the raid cap should just be raised to 16. Keep the big achievements at 12.

Aebaradath · December 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

Vaelen wrote: »

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

You can actually make different "non meta" builds (that get meta dps numbers), you just need to experiment on the PTS a good bit. I tried sharing my builds before but I received a LOT of hate for it so I stopped sharing them.

You know how Meta-sheep are. If you're not using the boring snoozefest BiS gear, your build is automatically bad in their eyes, regardless of the high DPS you can do.

Like someone else said, it's all math and numbers. Most of the hardcore players have already theorycrafted every single gear set combination and build out there for each class, and the Meta Police are just following the numbers which is 25k DPS min at this point in the game. But as the CP cap increases, the Meta Police just raise the min required DPS to play cooperatively in dungeons and trials, because honestly I think ZOS either nerfs builds or buffs the dungeons and trials periodically to keep it a challenge.

The current meta is not 25k. A NON competitive guild is going to ask 40k DPS for mag specs and 45k for stam specs, or GO HOME.

Ah, your ilk never ceases to amaze me.

BeefyMrTips · December 2018

josiahva wrote: »

Stop worrying about max DPS and just build what you want to play. Accept the fact that not every character you make is suitable for trials and get the max out of unique builds. The meta isn't an issue if you dont build to it and contribute to the problem.

My other posts discuss that I’m not looking for max DPS, I’m looking for more variety in abilities. No matter what sets you wear, chances are you are going to sport the same old abilities that outperform others. Granted you can create a unique build with random abilities but that isn’t talking about DPS that’s more so quality of everyday questing, delves, exploration etc

Otherwise to be able to do harder content you “must” have certain abilities on your bar. There are no options there when you consider being a competitive player, not “max” dps player. I don’t care about max, just have different ways to get near max with different abilities utilizing different rotations with every single combination being more unique than the current and if possible be able to contribute to a multitude of different group play

usmcjdking · December 2018

BeefyMrTips wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Stop worrying about max DPS and just build what you want to play. Accept the fact that not every character you make is suitable for trials and get the max out of unique builds. The meta isn't an issue if you dont build to it and contribute to the problem.

My other posts discuss that I’m not looking for max DPS, I’m looking for more variety in abilities. No matter what sets you wear, chances are you are going to sport the same old abilities that outperform others. Granted you can create a unique build with random abilities but that isn’t talking about DPS that’s more so quality of everyday questing, delves, exploration etc

Otherwise to be able to do harder content you “must” have certain abilities on your bar. There are no options there when you consider being a competitive player, not “max” dps player. I don’t care about max, just have different ways to get near max with different abilities utilizing different rotations with every single combination being more unique than the current and if possible be able to contribute to a multitude of different group play

I know right?

Imagine mobs that could only be damaged when they were CC'd? You might bring back some DSwing action into PVE.

Imagine mobs that were completely immune to anything but a single damage type? Well you might force some diversity there.

Imagine mobs that couldn't be taunted but only worked on a threat mechanic? Well you might justify some DPS to show up in heavy.

Imagine all this *** has been done before IN ESO and no one need to be reinventing the wheel.

Bouldercleave · December 2018

BeefyMrTips wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Stop worrying about max DPS and just build what you want to play. Accept the fact that not every character you make is suitable for trials and get the max out of unique builds. The meta isn't an issue if you dont build to it and contribute to the problem.

My other posts discuss that I’m not looking for max DPS, I’m looking for more variety in abilities. No matter what sets you wear, chances are you are going to sport the same old abilities that outperform others. Granted you can create a unique build with random abilities but that isn’t talking about DPS that’s more so quality of everyday questing, delves, exploration etc

Otherwise to be able to do harder content you “must” have certain abilities on your bar. There are no options there when you consider being a competitive player, not “max” dps player. I don’t care about max, just have different ways to get near max with different abilities utilizing different rotations with every single combination being more unique than the current and if possible be able to contribute to a multitude of different group play

Your idea doesn't take into account simple human nature though. The competitive nature of people will ALWAYS gravitate towards "BiS" - even if it is almost nothing.

we could have all skills within 1% of each other and guess what? people will still be clamoring for the Bis gear and skills - even for that 1% difference. It's just our nature to try and be the best and have the best.

BeefyMrTips · December 2018

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Your idea doesn't take into account simple human nature though. The competitive nature of people will ALWAYS gravitate towards "BiS" - even if it is almost nothing.

we could have all skills within 1% of each other and guess what? people will still be clamoring for the Bis gear and skills - even for that 1% difference. It's just our nature to try and be the best and have the best.

I never said this would fix that aspect, and that’s totally cool if it doesn’t, good for those people who seek out the ultimate BiS. However; I’m sure there are just as many people who want that ability to truly create a character unique to them and have it be competitive “not the best” in end game content. Why not be a “Warden Ranger” who only uses a bow to do most of its dmg as an example. Why not a “high priestess Templar” who wants to be able to have different heals available. Why not a berzerking dk tank who after taking so many hits becomes enraged and hits like a truck? These are all just crude examples.

Vahrokh · December 2018

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Vaelen wrote: »

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

You can actually make different "non meta" builds (that get meta dps numbers), you just need to experiment on the PTS a good bit. I tried sharing my builds before but I received a LOT of hate for it so I stopped sharing them.

You know how Meta-sheep are. If you're not using the boring snoozefest BiS gear, your build is automatically bad in their eyes, regardless of the high DPS you can do.

Like someone else said, it's all math and numbers. Most of the hardcore players have already theorycrafted every single gear set combination and build out there for each class, and the Meta Police are just following the numbers which is 25k DPS min at this point in the game. But as the CP cap increases, the Meta Police just raise the min required DPS to play cooperatively in dungeons and trials, because honestly I think ZOS either nerfs builds or buffs the dungeons and trials periodically to keep it a challenge.

The current meta is not 25k. A NON competitive guild is going to ask 40k DPS for mag specs and 45k for stam specs, or GO HOME.

Ah, your ilk never ceases to amaze me.

It might surprise you, but I play a lesser spec and I don't pick those values because I love them, but because you either do that or you don't get into a decent guild.