Need DPS diversity ASAP

BeefyMrTips

I can only speak for PVE DPS but may effect PVP as well.

Every character has a preset loadout. It’s hidden by ideas such as *different sets* *champ points* etc but the fact is, it’s non sense.

If I make a new class, I already know what sets, champ points, etc I need for maximum potential DPS. I have about 4-5 toons that are cookie cutter toons and it sucks to simply keep up every patch..

I don’t understand why we can’t create characters and develop them in different uniquely ways to hit similar DPS? It’s just not fun and I’ve about exhausted every route I can take with multiple sets and rotations to at least change things up a bit and it simply doesn’t work. I can’t fathom playing this game another patch if this next patch doesn’t offer something substantial.

I’d rather have no more new lands to explore and would prefer to have new character options.

Maybe out of your three main skill lines you can choose one to become a master in unlocking a third morph tier? Or how about instead of just vampire and werewolf we offer different schools that you can train in but you can only choose one. It would need a massive overhaul that would take time and change the game for sure but at least it would be better than the former game idea: New Trial Beat it, New Set get it, change of resources so modify rotation and add different enchant. Changing up passives will not be good enough

idk

In every MMORPG there are specific builds that always perform better than anything else for that class. It is because of math. So blame math if you want.

In ESO this is taken a step further because there are choices available to all classes vs being corned into only having a specific set of skills, significantly fewer set bonus, etc.

So while each class in ESO does have a unique flavor, there are going to be similarities since we have access to many of the same skill lines including weapons.

So in the end, a mag DK plays very differently than a mag NB or mag Sorc, they will use some of the same skills. It is much better than MMORPGs where your skills are predefined and if you do not use the very exact rotation theorycrafters discovered then your dps will be a mere fraction of what it could be.

BeefyMrTips

Lol What are you talking about? Blame math.. that’s not a legitimate argument in the least, especially if you don’t explain yourself.

Choices available to all classes? Well that’s pretty obvious, the problem is for max DPS potential, there are not. “Because of Math” based on each skill’s Coefficients you can calculate which skills are the absolute best setup for optimum performance. And the problem is that the next choice falls extremely short in many cases and maybe only one alternative choice for a skill that is the weakest.

I’m proposing different “flavors” within the classes themselves and outside of the classes.

I do agree the problem is everyone has access to everything, meaning there will always be a max potential despite the “flavors” of each class. Which is why I mentioned this;

If you limit access to abilities by only being able to choose one or another that will give more individual characteristics than being just a sorc, nb, warden, dk, and templar. Because if you are any of these regardless of mag or stam, there are templates that show the way to max out your build, and the next best thing is 7-10k less.

What I am proposing isn’t gonna make everyone equal but it at least allows a chance for people to play the way they want to play and hopefully with the right development have the dps within a 4K range. Some people want necromancer, bard, berserker, monk, etc.. maybe more than just one. Limit it to one, you can’t be a necromancing bard.

Currently, they introduce these other skill lines and we pick the skills like fruit that seem most tasty and the rest we leave to rot if it doesn’t help our DPS.

Finally that last part you mentioned. People are spending hours trying to do the exact same rotation as the people with max dps in ESO already. We are that mmorpg with predetermined loadouts and it’s why everybar and item you see in DPS parses are the exact same.

MLGProPlayer

They could start by nerfing the clear-cut BiS sets.

For example, Siroria and Spell Strategist have made all other magicka sets obsolete. In the past, DKs would wear unique gear that accentuates their fire damage (BSW/Silks/Elf Bane), wardens would wear unique gear that accentuates their use of a pet (Necro/Master Architect), and so on.

Now, everyone just sticks on Siroria + SS and calls it a day.

Having more sets that highlight the strengths of specific classes would go a long way to adding some build diversity to the game.

BeefyMrTips

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

They could start by nerfing the clear-cut BiS sets.

For example, Siroria and Spell Strategist have made all other magicka sets obsolete. In the past, DKs would wear unique gear that accentuates their fire damage (BSW/Silks/Elf Bane), wardens would wear unique gear that accentuates their use of a pet (Necro/Master Architect), and so on.

Now, everyone just sticks on Siroria + SS and calls it a day.

Having more sets that highlight the strengths of specific classes would go a long way to adding some build diversity to the game.

That’s a solid starting point

Drdeath20

This game is once again the proof that a game should either choose to focus mainly pvp or pve but never both.

They cant make variety bcz 1 will stand out over the other in pvp and it would be nearly impossible to balance it for both.

Instead of classes and the mag/stam divide they should've just had us choose a role from the beginning and gave us just a couple skill choices from there.

Melee DD, mid range DD, range DD, tank, support tank, buffer tank, healer, support healer, buffer healer.

BeefyMrTips

Drdeath20 wrote: »

This game is once again the proof that a game should either choose to focus mainly pvp or pve but never both.

They cant make variety bcz 1 will stand out over the other in pvp and it would be nearly impossible to balance it for both.

Instead of classes and the mag/stam divide they should've just had us choose a role from the beginning and gave us just a couple skill choices from there.

Melee DD, mid range DD, range DD, tank, support tank, buffer tank, healer, support healer, buffer healer.

And to be honest. That has always been the main problem to a lot of our issues. PVP needs vs PVE. Need to have a separation of church and state.

But once again, diversity would help. Reason being, currently you have a system in PVP where there is always one or two classes outperforming. When you introduce more abilities and combinations into the fold it becomes more likely that people will have other ways to handle the disparity vs the current game that PvP is which is paper rock scizzors.

Drdeath20

BeefyMrTips wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

This game is once again the proof that a game should either choose to focus mainly pvp or pve but never both.

They cant make variety bcz 1 will stand out over the other in pvp and it would be nearly impossible to balance it for both.

Instead of classes and the mag/stam divide they should've just had us choose a role from the beginning and gave us just a couple skill choices from there.

Melee DD, mid range DD, range DD, tank, support tank, buffer tank, healer, support healer, buffer healer.

And to be honest. That has always been the main problem to a lot of our issues. PVP needs vs PVE. Need to have a separation of church and state

It kinda is what it is at this point. I dont know how long you have been playing for, sounds like a long time if you have all these characters specced out, eventually all things must come to an end. Might be the end of your eso journey. I mean at some point what more is there to do in pve.

BeefyMrTips

Well that’s the reason I’m posting this, trying to put out ideas that may reach someone versus just giving up. Also, if you read the first part it most definitely is the end of my ESO journey if things don’t change or show signs of changing.

Nestor

So, we set the Meta at 100%. "Off" builds in this game are only down 1% to 5%. If you have a perfect rotation, this will matter to you, a little, doing Vet Hardmode Trials and a lot for Leaderboard times. If competitive Trials are your cup of Tea (even if just measuring against your self), then, yes, unfortunately, there are not as many choices as people would like. For every other type of content out there, there are dozens of effective builds.

Can you make a crap build? Yes, of course, there are obvious bad combos. And there are some sets of gear that make me scratch my head. But most gear can be paired with some skill rotation and tactics to do serious DPS numbers. Its just there are more build choices than most people think if you are tolerant of small DPS differences.

Or, ZOS could remove DPS differences at the 90% to 95% Percentile with a Damage Cap. That would remove the incentive to chase the ultimate amount of DPS for those competitive situations. And people would be encouraged, not forced, to try different builds. However, the only way they could smoothly add a bunch of new types of weapons, and even sets, without causing gear related turmoil, would be to somehow cap damage.

All that being said, I would like to see different weapon types for both Magic and Stamina, and related skills to those weapon types. Some gear sets are good, some need to be tweaked, some need to be rethought, new ones could be added.

BeefyMrTips

I agree with most of that, I don’t know how many other sets out there compete with siroria, and SS combo within 1%. I’d say at best 10% being around 6k difference. That being said. I believe at the 10% less tier from meta there are lots of sets you can use which I firmly believe are within 1-5%. But again we come back to skills. And at this point that actual 10% meta disparity starts becoming 11-15%

Yes, certain skills work better with different sets to be within that secondary margin. I’ve tested that myself and know it to be true, but you are talking about changing maybe 1 or two skills up at the very most for something else that can be close in damage. What I am proposing is that more options would help create that balance and give a chance for other sets that are complimentary to actually compete with meta while giving the player a more personalized experience

Edziu

mainly ZOS could just stop homogenization classes...
before it each class atleast in magica dps was different with different skills, rotation
for example magdk was mainly class to dps with DoT etc
thank to homogenization we ahve what we have....templar lost hist uniquenes with healing, dk with tankin and other classes in dps lost their class uniqueness like magblade which could offheal while full dps etc
now its really hard to see any difference between all of these classes more that just coulour of their skills...

nb? red
dk? orange/fire (stamian dk got *** with changes fire to poison and there his uniqueness in jsut cp build for additional fire(magic damage))
warden? blue/while/ice
templar? yellow
sorc?blue lighting

this is only difference I see today in classes with maybe as nb is jsut gutted in both healing and tanking while other classes also but not that much in these both ways at once

VaranisArano

You can play whatever you want.

There will always be a meta - that's the BIS gear and rotations. Most builds that are decent will be pretty close to the meta in DPS as long as they are a solid build. You can play those builds and do fine, completing the content just a little slower, but its up to your trials guild if they let you bring it to vet hardmode or whatever.

As for nerfing the meta, ZOS does it pretty regularly to create a new meta so people chase it and grind for new gear, so that's not actually going to solve your problem. Same thing for skills. If there's a new BIS single target or DOT skill, everyone will switch to run it, unless you don't, and then you do a little less but still perfectly decent DPS.

Asking for "more options" already exists. You can make plenty of builds that are pretty close to the BIS meta.


Now, it seems like you know that and are tired of that and want a full game overhaul to change that?

I don't see it happening in the near future. Maybe with the new Chapter? But given that ZOS is slowing down the pace of changes and looking at race passives next, I don't see something like what you want happening for a while.

Moreover, even your proposed system isn't going to stop the BIS meta. It will be the same thing - one character choice is the BIS and the others are capable of getting similar but slightly less DPS. It might be something new to play for a while, but ultimately it's the exact same thing as what you got tired of in the first place.

Kitty_Quietly

New skill morphs and more skillines would be interesting.

Personally, I would much prefer something similar to the old Morrowind spell crafting. It could work for skills both stam and magic based. They could make it so it never is higher than what is acceptable now. You would pick a damage type, and the length of time it lasts. The longer it lasts the much weaker it would be per second. Cost would be based on the total damage and damage type.

Yeah, complicated, but maybe they could do it if they kept the numbers reasonable. Big thing would be being able to name your own skills when you do it. That would spice things up. Other players would just see damage type, but we could laugh at our new skill names.

MarleyRain

When my top raiding guilds will only let mag nb or Stam nb in, this is not ok. They will let one sorc in the run MAYBE. How can this be acceptable? All other classes are basically left out of this type of content DPS wise.

victory.immortalb16_ESO

The OP is approaching this from the wrong direction.

There are many, many builds out there that are fun to play. Obviously there will always be, in any game, the best at DPS, best at tanking, best at healing. Nothing will ever change that fact.

If you are obsessed at squeezing the last 0.001% extra from a build, then after crunching numbers (oh look, maths!) you will arrive at the 'perfect' build for maximum DPS. Whether it works in Trials, etc might be another question as that will depend on group composition- and it might not work at all in pvp.

When you reach the stage you are at, I'd suggest a break. Or roll some new toons with non-optimal builds and experience the game like others do. Or even start over, no transferring, crafting, money or anything else apart from what you gather from your adventures, and choose a different race and class. Playing with just the drops you get as you go along generally means no decent sets until you hit 50.

Cillion3117

My main is a badass DPS with top gear. He's what I play endgame stuff with. I also have a few alts that are more diverse and fun builds. They will never do vet endgame stuff, but they are fun for over land questing.

Everstorm

The only way to reach balance is by drasticly reducing the number of variables/options. I don’t think that would lead to a more enjoyable game.

MythicaLMeddLer

As a stam dps..I miss the times when night mothers gaze..sunderflame..and two fang were a thing for supporting your group in trials..it may not be the type of diversity your asking for..but it at least offered some build flexibility within the group..I enjoyed carrying different sets and asking the group what they needed me to run..now it's just strap on relequen ay and go....least it cleared a lot of inventory space I guess.....

VaranisArano

MarleyRain wrote: »

When my top raiding guilds will only let mag nb or Stam nb in, this is not ok. They will let one sorc in the run MAYBE. How can this be acceptable? All other classes are basically left out of this type of content DPS wise.

Question.

Is it that no other classes can possibly complete the content your trials guild runs?

Or is it that your trials guild only wants whatever flavor of the month is best in slot at the moment?

Because the first option can be addressed by buffing other classes until they can complete the content.

The second option can only be fixed by finding another trials guild, because FOTM meta chasers are always going to chase the meta and thus always exclude whoever isnt BIS at the moment.

Toc de Malsvi

For the absolute max dps sure there are essentially few build options. However you can achieve dps numbers close within 1-5% of the max potential with a greater variety of setups. At least when considering most sets and set combinations.

Set wise there arises exceptions which cause great offense to diversity, such as VMA weapons, or Relequin/Siroria. Generally speaking these arise to promote purchasable content and will be nerfed in the future, although this is not always true.

Skill wise Magicka has the greater diversity between classes, but neither Magicka or Stamina has good diversity within class setups. Yet again though, if you are willing to give up 5-10% of max potential there is a good amount of diversity to be had.

Toc de Malsvi

Where this becomes a problem is if you want to diversify in more than one area that 5%+ begins to add up, more so when taking into account group buffs the additional dps loss further reduces the benefit to max output. Essentially what appears to only be a 3% difference solo between two builds can turn into a 5% or more in group buffed context.

I think there are more than enough sets in the game at this point and really only a few over-perform and perhaps could be balanced better.

Skill wise I think that we could use more skills that perform essentially the same functions with only slight variability in utility, damage type, and resource. However with the current balance there is an issue with adding more skills, consider for stam single target dots do not out perform AOE dots even in single target applications. The only true benefit from single target dots at this point is that they stay with the target and add depth to rotations.

If more AOE dots are added, there will be no reason to run single target dots for any application. Rebalancing of dots and direct damage skills is needed in order to allow for more depth and diversity and it will take a massive overhaul to begin to see what that would be like.

MarleyRain

VaranisArano wrote: »

MarleyRain wrote: »

When my top raiding guilds will only let mag nb or Stam nb in, this is not ok. They will let one sorc in the run MAYBE. How can this be acceptable? All other classes are basically left out of this type of content DPS wise.

Question.

Is it that no other classes can possibly complete the content your trials guild runs?

Or is it that your trials guild only wants whatever flavor of the month is best in slot at the moment?

Because the first option can be addressed by buffing other classes until they can complete the content.

The second option can only be fixed by finding another trials guild, because FOTM meta chasers are always going to chase the meta and thus always exclude whoever isnt BIS at the moment.

It's because only Stam or mag nb are hitting 70k+ raid parses. We are pushing the most difficult content so obviously they'll want the people pulling highest numbers. Nbs have been op for awhile now imo. But I completely agree other classes could complete the content just not as efficiently, highest scores etc. Like I said before this doesn't seem right when there are 4 other classes that can't even compare to those numbers.

Ertosi

Everstorm wrote: »

The only way to reach balance is by drasticly reducing the number of variables/options. I don’t think that would lead to a more enjoyable game.

Agreed in full. Perhaps it would be best for many to rethink their perspective on this and start thinking about ESO as an asymmetric game. Balance can never truly be achieved unless you take away all choices, or make them effectively meaningless. I would never want to play a game that dumbed down and boring. Meaningful choices are amazing, fun and why I'm here, but they also mean min-maxers will crunch their numbers and pick their favs to be BiS for the various aspects of the game. But just because meta considers it BiS doesn't mean you need to be another sheeple following the herd.

We have 10 races and 5 classes, with each combo able to pick magicka or stamina. That's already 100 combos you could go with for DPS. Once you start calculating the different skill choices and gear combos, the variety then becomes effectively infinite. So this problem of not seeing enough DPS variety lies in the perspective of the viewer and not on the game itself. I've got a stam and mag version of each class set up for DPS; they all play different and each is uniquely fun.

In other words, its silly to approach with the perspective of only wanting what's perceived as "BiS", but then also saying you want more of it. Something you choose to be singular can't also be multiple; you're purposely narrowing your options then being upset at your self-imposed lack of choice.

dovakiin5574

You can actually make different "non meta" builds (that get meta dps numbers), you just need to experiment on the PTS a good bit. I tried sharing my builds before but I received a LOT of hate for it so I stopped sharing them.

WhyMustItBe

idk wrote: »

...being corned into only having a specific set...

Honestly unless you are chasing speed achievements or leaderboards which I personally never cared about, there are a TON of CP and gear combinations that let you mix up the same old boring "use class buff, lay down AOE, apply dots, weave spammable" formula.

Lots of proc sets scaling off different CP for one thing...

Nebthet78

Before CP, when we had soft caps in the game, we had so much diversity compared to what we have now. It was really nice. Combat was fun, fast, and not boring.

If you wanted an Orc Healer you could make one. Your food, armour and potions helped to make up for your racial passives. You could use a multitude of different armours to do the same job, like Leviathan, or Treasure Hunter on a Stamina toon and you would be on the same level as other players.

Hybrid builds were fun to play, and could participate in end game content and it really kept things interesting.

But then ZOS decided to change how things work. They introduced the CP system with very little forethought in regards to how we as customers actually played the game. I mean, what moron doesn't realize that players are going to grind out as many CP as they can to get an advantage over other players when you don't put a CAP on system that fiddles with stats?

With it, was the introduction of Meta builds and elitism rose significantly in this game. Players who could participate in end came content found themselves severely neutered and were being left out by those they used to play with. They had to conform to the Meta or continue to be left out.

Animation Cancelling, which was not something that had a major impact early in the game, suddenly rose to prominance because it significantly increased the DPS now that there were no caps to even everything out. Was it an exploit of the system or not.... ZOS decided it was a feature once they figured out they didn't know how to fix it. Now it's a requirement in end game content too.

ZOS caught on to the players farming CP and decided to put in a cap on the amount that could be used. Late to the game as usual. But the damage to the game had already been done. The DPS creep had already started and instead of caping the system, they decided to bump up the stats of the Trials monsters to appease and slow down the elite 1% who were running through stuff.

But that didn't last long and was an utter failure, the hurt the average player, rather than the elite players.

Then they nerfed Regeneration with Morrowind to try to slow these type of players down again. This only continued to hurt the game and average players even more. Slowed down the combat and shoehorned players into using specific builds and specific abilities and rotations if they were even going to attempt to do end game content.

Continually, ZOS keep making the wrong moves and trying to fix things that don't need fixing, because they are looking at combat all wrong. A lot of players are at a point where they are sick and tired of the changing Meta. Of the nonsense changes to combat that does nothing to actually solve the issues at hand and with the toxicity spreading in end games trials and pvp guilds.

Changes are being made, not for combat balance, but in an attempt to keep players farming. And we are tired of it. A lot of end game players who were outside of the 1% elite box have left the game because of these changes. In the attempt to lower the celing and bring up the floor, you cut the heads off of the average player by lowering their DPS too, and the floor has yet to be raised.
I've seen a lot of end game guilds implode because of this and the elitism in this game. Players are tired of being nerfed again and again and again.

ESO is hemoragging players, and it's ZOS' fault. Players prefer stability in their games. All these frequent combat changes bring constant upheaval and do nothing to bring the 1% in line with the average player. And it never will. And the last thing that 1% wants is to be put on equal footing of the average player. But that is exactly what has to happen. And it's not going to happen with the way Combat is being handled in this game right now.

The only way that is going to happen is to bring back Soft Caps.

Had they kept Soft Caps when they introduced the CP system, and capped that system right away when it was released. We wouldn't have the huge balance issues we now have.
Magicka/Stam cap at 35k, Health at 45k, Damage cap at 4.5k, Resistances capped at 33.4k, Regeneration capped at 20%, etc. (Just using numbers as examples).

Once you meet the cap, via Attributes, Armour or Food, then you can spend your CP points to boost another area, or to help you in the areas that need it. As it should have been done when it was released. If I have 35k stamina, and 3.5k damage, but only 12k regen, then I could work at getting my CP points up to help me compensate for where I am weak and boost my regeneration first, up to acceptable levels for my play style.

If I wanted to use different armour because I like the look or the stats, I'd be able to do so and compensate where I can with the CP system and still be a viable player in end game content.

There is a simple fix to their glaring Combat Balance problem and ZOS refuses to look at it. There are players out there that don't want to see soft caps come back into this game and I have to implore you to ask the question why not? It's because they don't want to be brought down on the same level of every other player! Yes, they are better more elite players. They don't want to lose that power. They don't want to give up being able to steamroll over other players, whether it is in PVP or PVE. There is no other reason.

This is my fear with a lot of the "Class Representatives". Are they actually representing ALL player levels of ESO, or are they representing the elite 1% of end game players, who want to lord over everyone else, and keep things at a difficulty level they can't be completed by the majority? After listening in on a few Discords, where the average players were talked down to by a majority of these class representatives, I don't feel the majority of players are being represented at all.

Bringing back soft caps will open up Armour Diversity, why else have the number of armour sets we do, if we can only use a fraction of them effectively in end game?
Soft Caps will allow for Combat Diversity. Players will be able to choose from different abilities that may not be Meta now, but are fun to play with. It will allow an Orc to play a Mage, a Nord can become an effective Healer, a Altmer a dual weilding assassin. It solves the issue of Racial Passives forcing players to use a particular race to be effective in end game.

ZOS obviously can't see the forest for all the trees. The simple solution to a vast majority of their balancing issues are right in front of them, and yet they refuse to acknowledge it, and instead take the more complicated course of hacking down the forest and nerfing abilities and resources to fix an issue that can never be balanced this way. Problem is, once they are done, there won't be a forest left. There won't be any diversity.

ZOS should be adding to the forest with new abilities and skill lines, and more dynamic combat, not clear cutting it!!

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_GinaBruno

@Tasear perhaps you can take the time and try to understand what I'm getting at here. Sometimes my writing can be convoluted, but it is an option that I feel is not being represented as a solution by class reps.

Tasear

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Before CP, when we had soft caps in the game, we had so much diversity compared to what we have now. It was really nice. Combat was fun, fast, and not boring.

If you wanted an Orc Healer you could make one. Your food, armour and potions helped to make up for your racial passives. You could use a multitude of different armours to do the same job, like Leviathan, or Treasure Hunter on a Stamina toon and you would be on the same level as other players.

Hybrid builds were fun to play, and could participate in end game content and it really kept things interesting.

But then ZOS decided to change how things work. They introduced the CP system with very little forethought in regards to how we as customers actually played the game. I mean, what moron doesn't realize that players are going to grind out as many CP as they can to get an advantage over other players when you don't put a CAP on system that fiddles with stats?

With it, was the introduction of Meta builds and elitism rose significantly in this game. Players who could participate in end came content found themselves severely neutered and were being left out by those they used to play with. They had to conform to the Meta or continue to be left out.

Animation Cancelling, which was not something that had a major impact early in the game, suddenly rose to prominance because it significantly increased the DPS now that there were no caps to even everything out. Was it an exploit of the system or not.... ZOS decided it was a feature once they figured out they didn't know how to fix it. Now it's a requirement in end game content too.

ZOS caught on to the players farming CP and decided to put in a cap on the amount that could be used. Late to the game as usual. But the damage to the game had already been done. The DPS creep had already started and instead of caping the system, they decided to bump up the stats of the Trials monsters to appease and slow down the elite 1% who were running through stuff.

But that didn't last long and was an utter failure, the hurt the average player, rather than the elite players.

Then they nerfed Regeneration with Morrowind to try to slow these type of players down again. This only continued to hurt the game and average players even more. Slowed down the combat and shoehorned players into using specific builds and specific abilities and rotations if they were even going to attempt to do end game content.

Continually, ZOS keep making the wrong moves and trying to fix things that don't need fixing, because they are looking at combat all wrong. A lot of players are at a point where they are sick and tired of the changing Meta. Of the nonsense changes to combat that does nothing to actually solve the issues at hand and with the toxicity spreading in end games trials and pvp guilds.

Changes are being made, not for combat balance, but in an attempt to keep players farming. And we are tired of it. A lot of end game players who were outside of the 1% elite box have left the game because of these changes. In the attempt to lower the celing and bring up the floor, you cut the heads off of the average player by lowering their DPS too, and the floor has yet to be raised.
I've seen a lot of end game guilds implode because of this and the elitism in this game. Players are tired of being nerfed again and again and again.

ESO is hemoragging players, and it's ZOS' fault. Players prefer stability in their games. All these frequent combat changes bring constant upheaval and do nothing to bring the 1% in line with the average player. And it never will. And the last thing that 1% wants is to be put on equal footing of the average player. But that is exactly what has to happen. And it's not going to happen with the way Combat is being handled in this game right now.

The only way that is going to happen is to bring back Soft Caps.

Had they kept Soft Caps when they introduced the CP system, and capped that system right away when it was released. We wouldn't have the huge balance issues we now have.
Magicka/Stam cap at 35k, Health at 45k, Damage cap at 4.5k, Resistances capped at 33.4k, Regeneration capped at 20%, etc. (Just using numbers as examples).

Once you meet the cap, via Attributes, Armour or Food, then you can spend your CP points to boost another area, or to help you in the areas that need it. As it should have been done when it was released. If I have 35k stamina, and 3.5k damage, but only 12k regen, then I could work at getting my CP points up to help me compensate for where I am weak and boost my regeneration first, up to acceptable levels for my play style.

If I wanted to use different armour because I like the look or the stats, I'd be able to do so and compensate where I can with the CP system and still be a viable player in end game content.

There is a simple fix to their glaring Combat Balance problem and ZOS refuses to look at it. There are players out there that don't want to see soft caps come back into this game and I have to implore you to ask the question why not? It's because they don't want to be brought down on the same level of every other player! Yes, they are better more elite players. They don't want to lose that power. They don't want to give up being able to steamroll over other players, whether it is in PVP or PVE. There is no other reason.

This is my fear with a lot of the "Class Representatives". Are they actually representing ALL player levels of ESO, or are they representing the elite 1% of end game players, who want to lord over everyone else, and keep things at a difficulty level they can't be completed by the majority? After listening in on a few Discords, where the average players were talked down to by a majority of these class representatives, I don't feel the majority of players are being represented at all.

Bringing back soft caps will open up Armour Diversity, why else have the number of armour sets we do, if we can only use a fraction of them effectively in end game?
Soft Caps will allow for Combat Diversity. Players will be able to choose from different abilities that may not be Meta now, but are fun to play with. It will allow an Orc to play a Mage, a Nord can become an effective Healer, a Altmer a dual weilding assassin. It solves the issue of Racial Passives forcing players to use a particular race to be effective in end game.

ZOS obviously can't see the forest for all the trees. The simple solution to a vast majority of their balancing issues are right in front of them, and yet they refuse to acknowledge it, and instead take the more complicated course of hacking down the forest and nerfing abilities and resources to fix an issue that can never be balanced this way. Problem is, once they are done, there won't be a forest left. There won't be any diversity.

ZOS should be adding to the forest with new abilities and skill lines, and more dynamic combat, not clear cutting it!!

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_GinaBruno

@Tasear perhaps you can take the time and try to understand what I'm getting at here. Sometimes my writing can be convoluted, but it is an option that I feel is not being represented as a solution by class reps.

I am unfortunately no longer a class rep.....

Also I suggest directly mailing one of your current class reps ... because I was pretty much only one sharing threads.

P.S any questions about current change ask here. I am longer able to answer it.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/443412/fyi-updates-on-class-rep-program#latest

Bouldercleave

About 90% of this game is completely doable with ANY build.

100% of solo content, overland content, public dungeons, etc can be done with crafted gear and potions (I know, I do it every day). I have no gear at all that I haven't crafted myself with the exception of jewelry.

A good portion of non vet dungeons can be completed SOLO ( I have done many in my crafted gear ), so going in with ANY 4 man group with ANY builds should be fine as well.

Once you get to vet content and trials, you have to start making harder decisions, but unless you are chasing the leaderboards you can have a non meta build and still complete the content.

PvP is a whole different dog. That will NEVER be diversified because the goal 100% of the time is to squeeze every last trop out of the DPS meter.

Masel

MythicaLMeddLer wrote: »

As a stam dps..I miss the times when night mothers gaze..sunderflame..and two fang were a thing for supporting your group in trials..it may not be the type of diversity your asking for..but it at least offered some build flexibility within the group..I enjoyed carrying different sets and asking the group what they needed me to run..now it's just strap on relequen ay and go....least it cleared a lot of inventory space I guess.....

Agree 100%. I want group utility back....

temjiu

This is a global issue for the genre, not necessarily an ESO issue. 3 things come into play that affect the capacity to have a more diverse spread of classes/skills/styles of gameplay.

1) PvP/PvE - They do not mix. PvP as a whole encourages Homogenization of classes/skills. the less variation the better. PvE normally has players that want diversity, variance and interesting aspects of gameplay. PvE often is a measure of tactics against a know set of behaviors and/or dealing with puzzles and finding solutions. PvP is simply player skill vs. player skill. very different games, yet for some reason ESO developers really think they can balance the two together...or perhaps they simply aren't given the budget to separate the two. Dunno, but this is one big impact.

2) Competitive PvE play:
you can pretty much lump progression here as well, though progressive play doesn't necessary have to include competition. It usually ends up that way though. Similar to #1, the nature of the competitive aspect forces Homogenization. Classes MUST be balanced against each other or they won't be able to be a part of the competitive aspect.

3) Diversity itself:
Diversity in classes and skills, while fun and interesting, make balance very difficult. The NATURE of diversity goes against Homogenization, which is necessary for competitive play and PvP play. Pve players tend to want and support diversity, which is what the OP is asking for.

ESO tries to solve this by doing what Bouldercleave brought up, and simply make 90% of the game doable by just about any build that has a semi competent player behind it. 60-70% of the game can be done with Default attacks and a knowledge of block mechanics. So they simply separate the competitive aspect from the rest of the game by making it count for aprox 5-10% of the actual game content. It's not a bad approach...I do wish at times that there was a greater variety of challenge in that content, but it's hard to balance everything against a constantly increasing performance ceiling (a.k.a. CP).

I think that Nebthet's solution is a solid one for closing the gap in the most realistic way. It may not cure everything, but it would establish some boundaries that would allow the dev team to work around in limited facets. Unfortunately, until they rid the game completely of competition, there will always be people looking for that extra .5% they can squeeze out of their builds. Which means that there will ALWAYS be a meta.

To the OP: If your tired of having to follow the META, and it kills your enjoyment, then stop. You don't even really need to follow the META to do 98% of the game. even the toughest content can be done with 30k DPS and a competent player, and the META builds are pushing 50k or more. Overkill by a long shot. So you can honestly mix things up the way you want, and even at that still push some competitive content. or you can just say screw it, make the build you want, and run normal and basic vet content. 20-25k is plenty of Damage to push vanilla dungeons, normal or vet, and even most DLC stuff.

However, if you want to be competitive, you'll end up having to meta to a degree. This is the general condition of MMO's since their inception due to the 3 elements listed above. even if some developer team in the perfect world (you know, world peace, everyone's rich, cats and dogs live together, etc) found the capacity to balance an MMO with all classes and all skills and all gear sets and all combinations of skills to be within .5% of each other....the min maxers would still find that .5%, tote it as the meta, and the brainless meatbags would pick that up and kick people from their groups that didn't meet that meta.

Having to follow the META 100% of the time, especially with the current state of the game, is a mentality, not a reality of necessity.