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Too much negativity toward the ZOS’ Dev team
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Abigail✭✭✭✭✭The complaints are valid. The devs worry more about cosmetic micro transactions then combat balance, bug fixes and fixing lag.
I'm curious, when you guys talk about "devs," are you referring to the corporate suits who are concerned with ROI, or the studio-level managers and employees who have to meet schedules and budgets?2 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭rexagamemnon wrote: »So i read one post after another about people being upset with ZOS for one reason after another. Very rarely do i see real legitament concerns brought up, and 99% of the time it is addressed in the forum section. But the truth is The Dev team on ESO is doing really well. Think about it they make an effort to bring new content every couple months, how many MMORPGs do that or are even able to? Sure there are some real concerns, ive complained about not being able to move content across servers and server performance in pvp zones at times, most recently punturing sweeps malfunctions and does not flow into the next puncturing sweep attack properly like it used to since murkmire, and how the new mounts are always a reskin and the mounts aren’t really an important issue as much as i rip on ZOS in the forum section but other than that, i think they are doing great. Everyday i see a new post about the balancing in the game, and people are so uptight about balancing in the game as if they are experts and that they no better than the engineers of this game. But more often than not ots because someone is sore about their favorite class getting a balance to level the playing field for everyone when they want a leg up on the competition. I get it, i was upset when my templar lost major mending. But its always people get so bent out of shape over little stuff. The newest example is the sorc and the shields, hate to break it to you but they definately needed to be balanced with everyone else in pvp. When a sorc can take on 15 players and survive for 20min without dying due to stacked shields, thats ridiculas and not balanced. So thank you @ZOS for doing a good job.
Except for the new content to actually be enjoyable the game itself has to work properly. When there are massive performance and gameplay issues, bugs and glitches all over the place and half of the content doesn't even work properly then the new content may as well not exist at all. You wouldn't thank a car manufacturer for putting some extras on ur car every few months if the engine of the car won't even work would you?
As far as balancing is concerned I find it ironic to basically accuse people who complain of not knowing what they are talking about but then you come along as the expert and prove that you are the prime example of the type of people you are accusing in the first place. Sorcs tanking 15 people is only a fairytale and if that's ur experience then I hate to break it to you but you are confusing balance issues with ur lack of skill. Unfortunately this is the type of players ZOS is catering these days and the game has become a skilless mashup of broken mechanics. So next time you may want to look at the mirror before talking **** about people. Cheers.4 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭What i get from this is that some people will just refuse to acknowledge the problems that plague eso, and are observable in game by pretty much every single user, one example would be performance, all kinds of performance.
What I get from this is that some people will just refuse to acknowledge that not everyone suffers those problems.
It's simply a fact of life that I haven't had a significant performance problem with the game since PC launch, for example, yet some are quick to assume that I'm either lying or too stupid to recognise the problems I must be having.It's all down to a combination of things like player location, hardware setup, software setup, and most importantly the playstyle adopted.
I don't deny that other people have serious issues, although I do question whether they are all down to ZOS, and I do challenge the claim that "they are observable in game by pretty much every single user".
You do realize that ZOS admitted to those huge performance issues numerous times right? Like seriously if there is one thing in this game that no one can refuse to acknowledge is the performance issues. Even ZOS acknowledged them.3 -
gepe87✭✭✭✭✭
✭Not even a single explanation/communication from Zo$ about current bugs, steam login problems, event broken, d.finder broken, eso+ exclusives fiasco.
And what we get? That lame crate marketing (like nothing iits happening) and removed posts from forum mods.Gepe, Dunmer MagSorc Pact Grand Overlord | Gaepe, Bosmer MagSorc Dominion General
If you see edits on my replies: typos. English isn't my main language5 -
valeriiya✭✭✭✭✭
✭What i get from this is that some people will just refuse to acknowledge the problems that plague eso, and are observable in game by pretty much every single user, one example would be performance, all kinds of performance.
What I get from this is that some people will just refuse to acknowledge that not everyone suffers those problems.
It's simply a fact of life that I haven't had a significant performance problem with the game since PC launch, for example, yet some are quick to assume that I'm either lying or too stupid to recognise the problems I must be having.It's all down to a combination of things like player location, hardware setup, software setup, and most importantly the playstyle adopted.
I don't deny that other people have serious issues, although I do question whether they are all down to ZOS, and I do challenge the claim that "they are observable in game by pretty much every single user".
You do realize that ZOS admitted to those huge performance issues numerous times right? Like seriously if there is one thing in this game that no one can refuse to acknowledge is the performance issues. Even ZOS acknowledged them.
There's a difference between acknowledgement and actually fixing the issue. They have definitely not fixed anything because the group finder has been a hot mess for years. Gina acknowledged the issue but they're not going to fix it or the lag. Remember this when the same thing happens next year.2 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭What i get from this is that some people will just refuse to acknowledge the problems that plague eso, and are observable in game by pretty much every single user, one example would be performance, all kinds of performance.
What I get from this is that some people will just refuse to acknowledge that not everyone suffers those problems.
It's simply a fact of life that I haven't had a significant performance problem with the game since PC launch, for example, yet some are quick to assume that I'm either lying or too stupid to recognise the problems I must be having.It's all down to a combination of things like player location, hardware setup, software setup, and most importantly the playstyle adopted.
I don't deny that other people have serious issues, although I do question whether they are all down to ZOS, and I do challenge the claim that "they are observable in game by pretty much every single user".
You do realize that ZOS admitted to those huge performance issues numerous times right? Like seriously if there is one thing in this game that no one can refuse to acknowledge is the performance issues. Even ZOS acknowledged them.
There's a difference between acknowledgement and actually fixing the issue. They have definitely not fixed anything because the group finder has been a hot mess for years. Gina acknowledged the issue but they're not going to fix it or the lag. Remember this when the same thing happens next year.
I know that they haven't fixed anything. My respond was to someone seemingly refusing to acknowledge that performance issues even exist.2 -
Palidon✭✭✭✭✭
✭ESO is on a down hill slide. The reason ZOS inability to fix or care to fix the major performance and bug issues. Ask yourself, why has ZOS had so many free ESO weekends and on some occasions a free ESO week? The answer is simple, they are losing paid subscribers hand over foot and trying to draw in new blood. Paid subscribers have woke up or are just fed up and dropped their subscriptions. Why pay for a game that is riddled with bugs and performance issues. Even the new ESO Plus
subscriber benefit monthly reward is a joke. Its a collectable that if you have reached your collectable limit in your home cannot even use unless you purchase another home or have one that has not used up the collectable limit. Just another way to get money out of you in the long run. They even did away with the daily crown crate rewards. Why they were losing money giving out the free crates. Speaking of the daily rewards they are junk too with the exception of the gold and alliance points. There is nothing about this game that is great anymore, to me its just plain pathetic. Look at the DLC that comes out. Each is just a clone of the last one only the location has changed. Oh and let's not forget with each new DLC launch more bugs and performance issues. For those of you who were not around at beta launch, PVP was the big selling point for this game. It is a total wreck now and ZOS could care less. I don't play this game as much as I use too. To me you can only complain so long and when you do not see results just move on. There are other games out there to play and some games coming out that in my opinion are really going to put a hurt on this game. What is really sad is the growing number of players complaining to the deaf ears of ZOS.
Anyways nuff said. I would like to take this opportunity to wish everyone a happy holiday season.10 -
Rontabs77✭✭✭The game is one of the best games that I have ever played, although there is truth about the bugs. I always get booted out to login on a random match during my battleground sessions.1 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ESO is on a down hill slide. The reason ZOS inability to fix or care to fix the major performance and bug issues. Ask yourself, why has ZOS had so many free ESO weekends and on some occasions a free ESO week?
It is towards the end of the year when people are spending money almost habitually. ZOS wants in on that.
XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »ESO is on a down hill slide. The reason ZOS inability to fix or care to fix the major performance and bug issues. Ask yourself, why has ZOS had so many free ESO weekends and on some occasions a free ESO week?
It is towards the end of the year when people are spending money almost habitually. ZOS wants in on that.
Yeah. Steam charts from previous years shows that during end of the year game always notices large population increase.0 -
joseayalac✭✭✭✭✭
✭This forum is all about complaints...
Balance posts are most of the time made by people that know nothing about balance but they think they do...
I get very discouraged to play just by reading this toxic community, come on people it's a game! You're supposed to have fun and enjoy playing it.
Congrats to the Dev team! We all love this game deep in our hearts, that's why so many people spend so much time in this forum, I invite the community to post about the stuff they enjoy rather than about what they don't, or to give constructive feedback, not destructive...
On the other hand it would be very nice if we could get a major patch where nothing is added or balanced and the Devs just focused on performance, lag, bugs.
I love this game and have been playing it since launch. Probably will not stop playing it. I got 2 PCs stolen this year (I live in a no-man's land) and I keep replacing them to come back everytime!0 -
joseayalac✭✭✭✭✭
✭Zos can't deal with perfomance and horrible lag in cyro. Zos don't know how to balance classes, only thing they actually know is nerfing stuff into the ground. Don't know why do you think we should love them.
i hear they're going to 'balance' races, soon.
given that my playtime on this game has already dropped about 98 percent since nerfmire (great content, *** changes), i can hardly wait to see what the team comes up with next.
I think that the race changes will be awesome! I want to play my favourite races without feeling like I'm sacrificing power!0 -
jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Balance posts are most of the time made by people that know nothing about balance but they think they do...
And Zenimax knows any better?
Zenimax, the studio that rolled out sustain changes a year ago that uprooted the meta and made the game unfun for everybody, and have been slowly rolling those changes back ever since, without admitting they screwed up?
Zenimax, the studio that releases cancerous proc sets with One Tamriel, admits they're bad with Homestead leading to nerfs, then continues to release more sets that are gradually more and more cancerous (I'm looking at you Sloads, Zaan, Soldier of Anguish)?
Zenimax, the studio that guts shields with a cast time, then caves in to the overwhelming backlash, instead opting to introduce a cap based on health, all in the name of making healers feel wanted, when dozens upon dozens of one-shot mechanics are scattered throughout the entire game (healers can't heal through one-shots!), and DPS is astronomically high, meaning a DD is infinitely more valuable to a group than a healer?
Zenimax, the studio that changes Major Evasion to a 25% AOE reduction effect, nerfing every class except NB, which is buffed, as it has virtually no AOE abilities? NB, the one class that is painfully overperforming in both PVE and PVP?
Zenimax, the studio that introduces a jewelry trait that acts as a stackable Major Expedition, except it seemingly stacks multiplicatively with Major Expedition (Major Expedition gives 10%, Swift gave 10%, however Major Expedition + Swift would give 21%, since it is applied multiplicatively, not additively), then guts that trait, and mobility in general, as mobility is too powerful? Even when the class reps warned them that Swift was the problem, nothing else? And they left tools used by the Xv1/zerg crowd untouched, further buffing them?
Yeah, we know nothing about balance. /sI get very discouraged to play just by reading this toxic community, come on people it's a game! You're supposed to have fun and enjoy playing it.
Except Zenimax is distinctively making the game unenjoyable for most people complaining.
For me, I'm burnt out on PVE. I hate questing, find it incredibly boring, and I'm at a point where group PVE content is starting to become a drag. This is why I got back into PVP shortly before Summerset, because PVP is just one of the facets of the game that is ever changing, as fights are far more diverse and intense. No two fights are the exact same.
Murkmire is by far the worst patch I have ever played for PVP. It is slow, monotonous, boring, it sucks the fun out of the game, and it is just depressing. This is a direct result of the heavy handed nerfs on top of nerfs Zenimax delivered with Murkmire.
I want to enjoy playing the game, but Zenimax it making it hard to enjoy. Which is why I've decided to cancel my ESO+ and simply stop playing, move on to a different game, until something changes.Congrats to the Dev team! We all love this game deep in our hearts, that's why so many people spend so much time in this forum, I invite the community to post about the stuff they enjoy rather than about what they don't, or to give constructive feedback, not destructive...
Zenimax doesn't need more ass-kissing. They could do a much better job, they have done a much better job, and they should do a much better job.On the other hand it would be very nice if we could get a major patch where nothing is added or balanced and the Devs just focused on performance, lag, bugs.
Yes!
Finally, something I wholeheartedly agree with!I love this game and have been playing it since launch. Probably will not stop playing it. I got 2 PCs stolen this year (I live in a no-man's land) and I keep replacing them to come back everytime!
I love it to, but at some point you have to step back and realise that the game is just a shell of what it used to be. And I want it to get back to that point.Edited by jcm2606 on December 6, 2018 7:18AM5 -
Shadi_TrixterSoul ShrivenHonestly from what little I've read of this 7 page thread the negativity seems to be misplaced. "The DEVS seem to be a blanket statement for everyone involved at ZoS" which isn't really fair to the staff.
From what I've observed as a customer and my knowledge from working in operations, ZoS seems to have some pretty debilitating issues that only management can fix.
It doesn't look like they've embraced DevOps, or possibly the budget doesn't include the needed resources, the code base or release process must be a mess (since unrelated systems break every time a patch is pushed), and resources for correcting issues are probably fully dependent on microtransactions which after all is said and done are probably not enough continuity to grow after unexpected expenses (otherwise they would be fixing these issues). They also seem to be developing with larger release cycles which could explain a lot of the issues we've been seeing with the paralysis and non-response when it comes to addressing gameplay issues following an update. Proper CI/CD and test methodology with version control are a must.
Also monolothic megaservers in general are very hard maintain and scale properly, you really need services that are loosely coupled to allow for flexibility and it really doesn't help when you are stuck with decisions made from predecessors (sometimes years ago).
The most common pitfall I've seen are operations not being included during the design phase, there are certain key things that need to be in place to keep maintenance cheap, allow in-place upgrades (no downtime) upgrades, rollbacks, queue draining, etc without causing an outage.
The result of being stuck with poor decisions can take a long time to correct and only really seems to get fixed at large companies with executive buy-in; otherwise you get stuck constantly fighting fires and are fighting a war of attrition.
Communication is also very important. If you aren't communicating what's being done to resolve issues (i.e. making announcements where everyone can see them at first login), people assume incompetence, and eventually leave for greener pastures if its a consistent thing.
People can be very understanding as long as its communicated to them that you are aware of a problem, or investigating a problem and are working to fix it. It could be as simple as a single paragraph at the launcher.
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Shadi_TrixterSoul ShrivenTo clarify, if it wasn't clear from my original post, I have never worked at ZoS, Bethesda, or any related company but I have worked in Network Operations. That is the operational experience I refer to, this post is coming in at 2:48am and there doesn't appear to be any way to edit the original post. Best Regards.0
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gepe87✭✭✭✭✭
✭Shadi_Trixter wrote: »People can be very understanding as long as its communicated to them that you are aware of a problem, or investigating a problem and are working to fix it. It could be as simple as a single paragraph at the launcher.
This!!
Gepe, Dunmer MagSorc Pact Grand Overlord | Gaepe, Bosmer MagSorc Dominion General
If you see edits on my replies: typos. English isn't my main language0 -
Minyassa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I don't think it's the developers that most people are annoyed with. Someone other than the content creators is making the decisions about what resources to funnel where, what time is allowed to spend on what part of the game, marketing, and other choices that leave some people quite dissatisfied. The developers do a great job! But considering that the game is short-staffed as far as communicators, mods, technical support and other staff, someone in management is dropping the ball when it comes to hiring enough staff.1 -
xenowarrior92eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭well i am quite toxic on it myself but...seeing how fallout76 turned out...imma give them some slack and appreciation and yes ofc it could be better and they shouldn't slack...but it could had been worse...a lot worse :V0 -
TelvanniWizard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭In my personal opinion, they just get what they sow: unfriendly business practices, lack of comunication, big, unsolved problems, like pvp latency, disrespect for lore... All this causes people to react with the only weapon they have: good ol´complaining.2 -
rexagamemnon✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I dont play fallout, never have. What happened with fallout? I here about fallout in the forum alot but never an explanation.xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »well i am quite toxic on it myself but...seeing how fallout76 turned out...imma give them some slack and appreciation and yes ofc it could be better and they shouldn't slack...but it could had been worse...a lot worse :V
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John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@rexagamemnon , de mortuis nihil nisi bonum. ^^
And I feel that right now ESO is a good example of broken windows theory. There was a topic around about worse state of the game's community than it was before, and I think it's not completely off the mark; what I feel is that we have a lot of broken windows in the house. Neglect, galore of bugs hanging unacknowledged for months (or years), lack of communication, downright bad balancing and loose content design that severely disadvantages some classes and specs, exploits hanging without being addressed, key aspects of the game refusing to work (ahem, group finder), et cetera, et cetera. Neighborhood gets used to the idea that broken windows are okay, and breaking more is okay too. ("If they cared to fix this, I wouldn't be doing that!") Litter on the streets, broken cars, bullying on the streets and graffiti on the walls don't do well to unite people, encourage them to keep house clean and be good neighbors. Little things add up. Declining quality of life undermines the community and makes us care less about one another.
Now, not blaming developers themselves. I'm pretty sure that latest fiasco with group finder is not a finder bug but a masqueraded inability of server to create so many dungeon instances in parallel (and management's reluctance to invest in infrastructure). But it's how it is - doesn't matter why the window is broken, what matters is that it's not getting fixed. Here's hoping for grand renovation in the coming year. Me, I'd feel nice if things started with opening a simple garden variety bug tracker.2 -
ezio45✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭but they do come crashing down because of lack of humility... look at ea and bethesda and blizzard.... ignore your customers that made you and they will unmake you just a fast
You get that we're not arguing cross purpose, right?
Even so, please explain how customers brought down EA or Blizzard? (Bethesda is a division of ZOS). Neither EA or Blizzard has shown anything but increasing net profits over several years. Yes, they've had failed launches between them, which is apples and oranges in regard to this thread, but neither juggernaut has been crippled in the way you'd like to think.
have you checked there stock price lol0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭To be fair I think there is not enough negativity. If there would be enough of it devs would start to care about it and do something with broken things in the game people complain about. But since there is not enough negativity and every role player or casual player that is not concerned about balance or game end bugs is happy with the game devs thinks everything is fine and simply dont care which in future will cause even more negativity. Hopefully at some point the bubble will burst out and devs will start to do something , starting from actually actively playing the game more to understand it better instead of throwing bunch of half baked changes and then acting suprised when people hate them and curse the balance.Edited by Juhasow on December 6, 2018 1:07PM4 -
jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭To be fair I think there is not enough negativity. If there would be enough of it devs would start to care about it and do something with broken things in the game people complain about. But since there is not enough negativity and every role player or casual player that is not concerned about balance or game end bugs is happy with the game devs thinks everything is fine and simply dont care which in future will cause even more negativity. Hopefully at some point the bubble will burst out and devs will start to do something , starting from actually actively playing the game more to understand it better instead of throwing bunch of half baked changes and then acting suprised when people hate them and curse the balance.
I feel this is also the case. Many players outside of the forums can be summed up in one simple word: "meh."
They really don't care how far ESO has slipped, and how great it could be if Zenimax just cleaned their act up. Bring any of this up, simply cite some criticisms to spark a discussion, and you're ridiculed for being a negative nancy.0 -
Atreidus✭✭✭"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."
When you screw up, everybody and their brother knows about it and tells you.
The right things are noticable to. But i agree: The most dont care about a working feature.
The most(me to tbh) are only raging without having got a clue, why it wont be working.0 -
Zer0oo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Who else to blame?
- Update 23Ice Furnace: This item set now grants Spell Damage, rather than Weapon Damage for the 4 piece bonus1 -
Miswar✭✭✭✭✭Shadi_Trixter wrote: »Honestly from what little I've read of this 7 page thread the negativity seems to be misplaced. "The DEVS seem to be a blanket statement for everyone involved at ZoS" which isn't really fair to the staff.
From what I've observed as a customer and my knowledge from working in operations, ZoS seems to have some pretty debilitating issues that only management can fix.
It doesn't look like they've embraced DevOps, or possibly the budget doesn't include the needed resources, the code base or release process must be a mess (since unrelated systems break every time a patch is pushed), and resources for correcting issues are probably fully dependent on microtransactions which after all is said and done are probably not enough continuity to grow after unexpected expenses (otherwise they would be fixing these issues). They also seem to be developing with larger release cycles which could explain a lot of the issues we've been seeing with the paralysis and non-response when it comes to addressing gameplay issues following an update. Proper CI/CD and test methodology with version control are a must.
Also monolothic megaservers in general are very hard maintain and scale properly, you really need services that are loosely coupled to allow for flexibility and it really doesn't help when you are stuck with decisions made from predecessors (sometimes years ago).
The most common pitfall I've seen are operations not being included during the design phase, there are certain key things that need to be in place to keep maintenance cheap, allow in-place upgrades (no downtime) upgrades, rollbacks, queue draining, etc without causing an outage.
The result of being stuck with poor decisions can take a long time to correct and only really seems to get fixed at large companies with executive buy-in; otherwise you get stuck constantly fighting fires and are fighting a war of attrition.
Communication is also very important. If you aren't communicating what's being done to resolve issues (i.e. making announcements where everyone can see them at first login), people assume incompetence, and eventually leave for greener pastures if its a consistent thing.
People can be very understanding as long as its communicated to them that you are aware of a problem, or investigating a problem and are working to fix it. It could be as simple as a single paragraph at the launcher.
The communication is actually very important. ZoS communication is lets drop few lines and stay silent.
That is how they seem to operate. Don't remember who posted about that their communication could and should better. Propably one of the comminity managers who are paid to do that... well has there been any improvement on that sector? Not at all judging by the dev tracker.
Those kind of promises and just empty words as they have been for few years now. Unfortunately so.3 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »So does complaining about persistent performance issues in PVP count as a "legitimate complaint" or not?
Because I assure you, they sure havent addressed those yet.
People should complain about that. But the hyperbole gets old fast. Some people are clearly overwhelmed with anger and can't help but spew over-the-top bile.0 -
Miswar✭✭✭✭✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »So does complaining about persistent performance issues in PVP count as a "legitimate complaint" or not?
Because I assure you, they sure havent addressed those yet.
People should complain about that. But the hyperbole gets old fast. Some people are clearly overwhelmed with anger and can't help but spew over-the-top bile.
Does ignoring that ie. PvP performance issues for few years now give development team "free get out that critique" pass?
Go check alliance forums etc which are buried somewhere in these forums. Tell us than how much of the complaints were taken seriously and how much fixes / comments / information did we recieve from the development team.
It wohn't be a long list at all.0