What's Wrong With Decoupling Character Passives From Race?

NupidStoob · November 2018

Knowing that the skills I took a couple hundred hours ago when my char reached 50 and never looked at again provide me with x% more stats really enriches my RP experience /s

The things that make classes unique are looks and the more special passives that not just simply buff stats. These things should be expanded on and the stat thing should just be removed. Most players wouldn't even realize a difference in their gameplay if they had 10% more of X or not especially since most players also don't have a frame of reference from not playing different races on the same builds.

TheShadowScout · November 2018

Recremen wrote: »

Which races changed over time? Is it "none of them"? I'm pretty sure that's the answer.

Well, I suppose that tells us something about the quality of your thoughts. Nedes? Atmorans? Yokudans? Ring a bell?

Recremen wrote: »

We do have some that changed via magickal means, such as the Chimer changing to the Dunmer, the Aldmer changing to the Altmer...

...which was not magical at all, just... you guessed it.
The aldmer who settled the summerset isles changed over time into the altmer, not through divine intervention. So did the ones that changed into chimer, though turning those to dunmer was obviously a daedric fiat, same with the orsimer origin.

Also, its kinda a point of pride with the altmer that they remain closest to altmer. You'd think they'd have noticed some great magical transformation messing up their story there, huh?

Recremen wrote: »

The argument is not stronger as there is still no actual references to base it on.

No reference... except the racial descriptions in the lore, you mean?

My point stands, when a racial trait is acquired by divine intervention, like for example orsimer getting their mystical elven blood transformed into physical toughness when trinimac became malacath, then it follows that this trait is even more coupled with the race then a trait merely aquired through generations upon generations of living in ther lands of ice and snow, right? Because the latter could plausibly be gotten by another tribe living there (and thus the case could be made for reachmen having a mix of breton and nord passives); but something that took aedric or daedric power to bring into being?

Recremen wrote: »

Pick a race and go over their creation myth...

...and you get only myth and self-congratulations, yeah, yeah, we know.
But the more objective racial descriptions are a different matter, because while the former are the race themselves telling a story that makes them look good in their eyes, the latter is basically the original developers telling the players how they wanted each race to be.

Recremen wrote: »

We don't see adaptations among real human populations with that sort of power.

Really?
You are saying, if I get my pasty white arse down to africa I will be handling the burning sun just as well as a pigmentally enhanced african native? Puh-leeze!

Recremen wrote: »

First, you are using the in-game character select or user manual descriptions, which are being used to explain the racial bonuses, as the definitive lore source, when that (the game mechanics) is literally the thing I am calling into question.

Yes, I am doing exactly that.
Because the lore is not limited to the in-game lore, even more important then that are the developer mandated descriptions. Because the in-game lore is always a subjective thing, written to be shaded through the fictional origins point of view... but the developer descriptions is the -actual- makers of the world telling the players how they decided things should be.

Sorry if that is unclear to you.

Recremen wrote: »

Second, while I think the idea of an initial leg up with equal caps is much less onerous, it is still goes fundamentally against the complexities that we see in actual character actions across both the lore and the NPCs.

And I say it doesn't. No more then D&D giving elves +1 to bow and longsword did. Does that mean every elf in D&D campaining must be an archer or swordsman? I have seen enough elven mages to know this is not so. Played one or two, even.

And once again, a race having a perk that makes them a bit better at one thing does not mean every single one of that race must be that one thing, nor does it mean everyone who is that thing must have had a perk giving them an edge at it.

Recremen wrote: »

There's just no reason in Morrowind, for example, for Redguards to start with such huge negatives to their mental states compared to other races, especially when you can choose your class to indicate what your character was already supposed to be trained for.

Except the developers made it so anyway, most likely to depict those races (seeing how the redguards share that penalty with nords and male orcs) are more physically inclined then mental. Which makes quite a bit of sense considering their depiction, yes?

Recremen wrote: »

I don't know how many of the in-game lorebooks you've read, but we constantly see characters acting and excelling outside the supposed calling of their race.

Once again, you are postulating a connection where none exists.
A race having a perk benefitting one thing does not mean every one of that race will be that thing.
Someone being that thing does not mean they must have had a perk benefitting it either.

Recremen wrote: »

Additionally, you seem to not understand how exceptions and majorities work. If people acting out of the expectations for their race is an exception, then they don't become the majority when you examine a larger portion of the population.

Once again, racial trait is NOT an expectation.
Its an perk, one that some will develop, and others won't.
Citing examples from those who deceloped in other directions then the one their race has an advantage in means nothing, because -duh- of course the majority will develop as needed by their life and not as advantaged by their race. So if an altmer grows up as the heir to an farm, they will develop farming skills and not sorcery. But that will not exactly make them "act out of the expection", now will it? Because there is NO expection, no matter how magical altmer blood may be, noone expects all altmer to be mages, just like noone expects all bosmer to be archers, or all orcs to be warriors, or all khajiit to be thiev... no, wait, that last one is expected I guess!

The one place where expectations come into it is the realm of heroes. No farmers here, just fighters and mages, rogues and whatever else gets the job done. Here there are expectations... like that a wood elf will win the archery contest again this year, or that the "best spellslinger" prize will most likely be contested by a breton and a altmer.
And if a argonian wins the archery contest, or a nord trounces both the breton and altmer contestants... that would be an exception, and thus noticed more then five years of bosmer archery wins of altmer mage prizes.
Still doesn't mean that argonian traded his swimming speed for bow skillz, or the nord handed in his cold resistance for more magica, I say!

Recremen wrote: »

This is also not about racial advantages being underdeveloped as there is still no lore evidence for those existing.

Wrong.
Racial descriptions.
Right from the "overgods" of the world, the great makers, the first creators, the ones who made the big decisions.

You may want to keep nitpicking that this is not lore because you seem to limit the term to the in-game lore... but as I said, the objective OoC descriptions are just as much part of the game lore, and stronger then any in-game book as they are not shaded by any subjective filter.

Recremen wrote: »

And here's where we come back around to why game design decisions are a bad place to pick up lore secrets. Take a look back at all the racials through all the TES games. I know I did. There are loads of inconsistencies and one game (Battlespire) where there WERE no racial passives! Which Altmer racials are the true lore, for instance?

Read it again. Not the stats, but the racial -descriptions-!
See?

Even in TES:Battlespire, they had the "racial traits" in the race descriptions. And those are the "true lore" you ask for, while the game stats are just the depictions in that particular game.

And that is the core of my argument...

I stand by the descriptions, and argue about the depictions.
You seem to want to throw it all away, give the work of the original developers the finger, and make up your own ideas.
And I disagree with that, I still say we should stay within the descriptions, and change the depictions in the game rules to make them less... exclusive. Make it possible for people to play as they want, even if in some combinations they might have to play a bit more to reach the same effect - but have a way that -lets- them reach the same final effect, no matter where they start from.

Recremen wrote: »

It's also pretty silly to try and give a final dismissal of any attempts at criticism with a "you don't own the license for the game so nuts to you" argument.

That was not what I said.
I said, if you want to -change the basics-, you have to buy the license for that privilege.
Or make up your own fantasy world, with your own lore and rules.
But starting any criticism of an -elder scrolls- game with "throw away the elder scrolls flavor and do what I say" is pretty arrogant I think... so I for one try to make my suggestions in ways that keep to the flavor of the elder scrolls, and work with the depictions of them in the game rules, instead of saying "forget everything we had in the prior games and do something completely different"

gepe87 · November 2018

How these change give homogenization ? These changes will improve diversity. Boring is to have always Argonians, Redguards and Altmer. Finally we can have our main to achieve meta. We can do everything at current state, but c'mon, everyone at some point follow meta.

MajBludd · November 2018

The real question is, how broken will the game be after this change?

Something is gonna be fugged up, we should all know that. It's just what and for how long.

I look forward to 10hrs of down time due to having to fix problems after this update

Aralon · November 2018

Glurin wrote: »

bellanca6561n wrote: »

I was looking at another of one of those...polls, this one about some talk of upcoming "rebalancing" of racial passives.

Can we just STOP tying character passives to RACE?

Nope.

The passives are what define the race.

I thought the way they looked did?

Glurin · November 2018

gepe87 wrote: »

How these change give homogenization ?

Simply put, the races would become nothing more than window dressing. The passives differentiate each race from all the others by giving each one tangible differences. Orcs are naturally stronger and hardier than Altmer, who conversely are more adept at magic.

Furthermore, we would very quickly see everyone using the exact same passives. A change like this would at best do nothing to improve the build diversity situation and in fact is very likely to make it worse.

This does not mean that you can't be an Orc mage. It doesn't even mean you can't be a good Orc mage. That is, in fact, the very thing ZoS is looking to improve on with the announcement that they are looking at racial passives. What it means is that you can punch people in the face when they make fun of you for wearing a dress. (Although, as a mage, I do also find setting their face on fire equally satisfying.)

Tan9oSuccka · November 2018

Glurin wrote: »

bellanca6561n wrote: »

I was looking at another of one of those...polls, this one about some talk of upcoming "rebalancing" of racial passives.

Can we just STOP tying character passives to RACE?

Nope.

The passives are what define the race.

Is it?

I don’t know about you, but I don’t want to play as a fancy man Altmer just for the sake of passives.

Protossyder · November 2018

Yeah, and now also detach class passives and skills from classes please.

But seriously, a suggestion:
Add passive morphs to racial (or other) passives to add a little more variety to them.

For example: Orc - Swift Warrior --(morphable to)--> Sturdy Warrior (higher resistance? little bit more hp?)

wolf486 · November 2018

Player skill > racial passives.

At the end of the day, I could have a high elf sorcerer with the best gear and I'd probably be worse than a great end game player who has a khajiit sorcerer. I will always choose race above passives no matter what. Can't stand high elves so I will happily "settle" for a lesser character than a "meta" type.

Elsonso · November 2018

SydneyGrey wrote: »

When you save Eyevea, you see mages of literally every single race in there afterward.
Yet you can't have Redguard, Orc, Bosmer or Khajiit mages in the game. Well, ok ... you CAN, but they'll always have a bit less magicka sustain and total magicka than a magic-based race. This drives me crazy since I like all those races, but prefer to play magicka characters. LOL.
Oh well, it is what it is.

That is actually OK. The main requirement is that they be able to do the content. It is the elite players that add the condition that they must be the best at doing the content. Like I said above, ZOS does not need to make all the races the same, they need to make it so that there are reasons to make different decisions. If they do it right, these decisions that are not immediately discarded by the elite players.

Part of the problem with simplifying the character mechanics, as Elder Scrolls has been doing for years, is that it is too easy to limit the game to specific builds. I think Skyrim has very few builds. Fewer than ESO. ESO builds come from three two attributes, 5 classes, and 10 races. That is very small, so we also have limited differentiation in builds. I don't see that changing, but I am hoping they don't make it worse by just ignoring the race through homogenization of racial benefits.

mairwen85 · November 2018

For magsorc, dark elf is inferior to both breton and high elf... But I like that my fire damage is boosted. I make a sacrifice, but have an equally viable character, just built differently to how I would have for another race, focused specifically on one or more aspects than I would have otherwise. Metas aside, racial passives provide build diversity. Otherwise we'd all be running the same carbon copy. Because, like it or not, 70% of the player base pulls their build from a site, rather than investigate and learn for themselves (bs star for hyperbole, no source to actually back up).

If we remove them, that diversifier has to come from elsewhere. I'm happy to see that, if the solution provides the same viable result, and doesn't undo everything I've worked for over 8 characters and 3 years - - sensible suggestions, disregarding a bag of passive selections: passives should be targeted and selectable only with determined parity in my view.

If anything, class passives need reworking, to open them up. Natural affinity for a role does not immediately mean the resulting build is best in slot, there are many other variables that determine that.

Icy_Waffles · November 2018

Yeah I’ve said this before. Maybe instead of them based on race- do birthsign or something. I’d be down with it.

Idk it really doesn’t matter what they do. It’ll be a nerf to many- buff to some, maybe. But overal probably a nerf. Lol

danno8 · November 2018

Ackwalan wrote: »

That would mean, only a few passives would ever be used, since everyone would gravitate to the meta.

Don't they already do that?

Aren't all end-game Stamina characters Redguard, and Magicka Altmer?

danno8 · November 2018

Recremen wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

NupidStoob wrote: »

Race should only ever impact talent and not actual prowess in certain fields. That any run of the mill high elf will be a better magicka char than any nord is stupid and not realistic at all. There are great warrior highelfs and there are great nord mages, yet with the current system one role will always be better on the other class.

What if you substitute orc for nord?

I get that some people want everything homogenised so they can just pick the FOTM meta until it changes with the next update when they can resume complaining. Meanwhile, the rest of us are playing a role-playing game.

First of all, people can already switch to FotM by paying for a race change token. Second, if build homogeneity were an issue with decoupled racials, then why isn't it already a problem given the ability to roll alts or buy race change tokens? Third, and for me most importantly, how on earth does a BS racial passive add to your role-playing experience? THAT is the real homogeneity here. You might as well rob all characters of any feature that's outside the stereotype for their race. No clever and charming Razum-Dar, he's a skooma addict sneakthief now. No scholarly Shazah or warrior Khali anymore, they're skooma-addled sneakthiefs too. Such roleplay!

Exactly. Let NPC's be the stereotypes. The Players should be the "mold-breakers" that are unique.

Iluvrien · November 2018

danno8 wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

NupidStoob wrote: »

Race should only ever impact talent and not actual prowess in certain fields. That any run of the mill high elf will be a better magicka char than any nord is stupid and not realistic at all. There are great warrior highelfs and there are great nord mages, yet with the current system one role will always be better on the other class.

What if you substitute orc for nord?

I get that some people want everything homogenised so they can just pick the FOTM meta until it changes with the next update when they can resume complaining. Meanwhile, the rest of us are playing a role-playing game.

First of all, people can already switch to FotM by paying for a race change token. Second, if build homogeneity were an issue with decoupled racials, then why isn't it already a problem given the ability to roll alts or buy race change tokens? Third, and for me most importantly, how on earth does a BS racial passive add to your role-playing experience? THAT is the real homogeneity here. You might as well rob all characters of any feature that's outside the stereotype for their race. No clever and charming Razum-Dar, he's a skooma addict sneakthief now. No scholarly Shazah or warrior Khali anymore, they're skooma-addled sneakthiefs too. Such roleplay!

Exactly. Let NPC's be the stereotypes. The Players should be the "mold-breakers" that are unique.

Have you compared the populations recently?

Generally, even in major cities, during prime-time you will either see a similar number, or more, players than NPCs.

When the "mold-breakers" outnumber the stereotypes, they are no longer stereotypes.

bellanca6561n · November 2018

Wow....that made for some interesting reading. I was keenly curious about how people felt. And now I know. This has been my first Elder Scrolls game and, thus, my first exposure to the lore and such.

Personally, my favorite races are Dunmer and Redguard but I never felt *forced* into those decisions. Someone, objecting to these racial passives, said in another topic, "I want to make beautiful characters again," in this case hoping for some Nord love in the changes. Well, I'll confess that looks figured ABSOLUTELY into my character creation decisions but beauty is subjective.

Andala%20Encasement%20Armor_zpssxdqbcso.png

Andala%20Encasement%20Armor_zpssxdqbcso.png

Sharli%20in%20Revealing%20Costume_zpsezcuz0wg.png

Varleas%20Outfit%20for%20Church-1_zpsiz82uouz.png

But I became concerned that there might be something else behind people complaining about being forced to become a Redguard or what may be behind this notion of, "...beautiful characters."

It wasn't just the strange zone chat in the Alik'r, or the fact that my sole Redguard using the bank in Belkarth was the only character getting mud packs thrown at her in that bank. The complaints that Dunmer gals all have "a resting *** face" and "You can't make a Dark Elf female look like a Western woman." There was also this,

[Snip]

You see this sort of thing in every game and we've seen lots more of it in the past couple of years for obvious reasons. But it got me to wondering if there wasn't something fundamentally wrong about the idea of fixed racial traits, something insidious and irresponsible beyond gameplay.

The majority of ESO players view their characters as gear. And they choose gear based on their play style and their desire to be effective players. But most of these are not wholly fantasy races. Thus darker motives come into play. And thus I wondered if racial passives, if not the creators of a problem, nonetheless exacerbate it.

Just let players make the characters they want, the characters attractive to them, with attributes consistent with the game's mechanics. Does it violate the lore? When you have all races represented in the Fighters Guild and the Mages Guild, as well as singature NPCs cast against stereotype, I think not.

More lore breaking, in my view, is the legion of Redguard player characters choosing white skin and blue eyes. And why do you think that happens? It's okay to not find dark skin attractive. Quite another to make a dark skinned race a white race because of the racial passives of Redguards.

[Edit to remove inappropriate content]

Synthwavius · November 2018

What if my redguard's mother was an altmer? It doesn't make any sense to not have any magika passives in such case.

bellanca6561n · November 2018

Synthwavius wrote: »

What if my redguard's mother was an altmer? It doesn't make any sense to not have any magika passives in such case.

And this. It could really be a boon to roleplay.

Valrien · November 2018

SydneyGrey wrote: »

When you save Eyevea, you see mages of literally every single race in there afterward.
Yet you can't have Redguard, Orc, Bosmer or Khajiit mages in the game. Well, ok ... you CAN, but they'll always have a bit less magicka sustain and total magicka than a magic-based race. This drives me crazy since I like all those races, but prefer to play magicka characters. LOL.
Oh well, it is what it is.

You know, it is possible that those very same mages are also not as great at what they do as an Altmer.

You can still play whatever race you want. Just don't expect to be the best at everything

mikemacon · November 2018

What’s stopping you from making a magsorc Khajiit or a brawny Altmer tank?

Sure neither will be “BiS”, but they’d work quite well if done correctly and they’d be quite interesting to boot.

Valrien · November 2018

mairwen85 wrote: »

For magsorc, dark elf is inferior to both breton and high elf... But I like that my fire damage is boosted. I make a sacrifice, but have an equally viable character, just built differently to how I would have for another race, focused specifically on one or more aspects than I would have otherwise. Metas aside, racial passives provide build diversity. Otherwise we'd all be running the same carbon copy. Because, like it or not, 70% of the player base pulls their build from a site, rather than investigate and learn for themselves (bs star for hyperbole, no source to actually back up).

If we remove them, that diversifier has to come from elsewhere. I'm happy to see that, if the solution provides the same viable result, and doesn't undo everything I've worked for over 8 characters and 3 years - - sensible suggestions, disregarding a bag of passive selections: passives should be targeted and selectable only with determined parity in my view.

If anything, class passives need reworking, to open them up. Natural affinity for a role does not immediately mean the resulting build is best in slot, there are many other variables that determine that.

Dunmer is meta for almost all magicka builds, including MagSorc lol...this will remain true until Lightning Staff is a good option

Valrien · November 2018

Synthwavius wrote: »

What if my redguard's mother was an altmer? It doesn't make any sense to not have any magika passives in such case.

Then your Redguard would be an Altmer, as in ES lore the race is determined by the mother with minute features being given by the father.

You'd be an Altmer that kind of maybe looks a little bit like a tall yellow redguard with angular features

If you're gonna comment about RP then at least learn the lore

BretonMage · November 2018

bellanca6561n wrote: »

It wasn't just the strange zone chat in the Alik'r, or the fact that my sole Redguard using the bank in Belkarth was the only character getting mud packs thrown at her in that bank. The complaints that Dunmer gals all have "a resting *** face" and "You can't make a Dark Elf female look like a Western woman." There was also this,

[Snip]

You see this sort of thing in every game and we've seen lots more of it in the past couple of years for obvious reasons. But it got me to wondering if there wasn't something fundamentally wrong about the idea of fixed racial traits, something insidious and irresponsible beyond gameplay.

These are trolls/extremists trying to desensitise people to racism and extremist violence. They will still be there even if racial passives are removed. Those comments should be subject to moderation and the users banned tbh.

The thing is that racial passives have always been part of RPGs and TES, and they were there long before racists decided MMOs were their fertile hunting ground.

Perwulf · November 2018

It disregards the very purpose of "role-playing game."

xan4silkb14_ESO · November 2018

If there is nothing defining the race outside of cosmetics, then why bother with race at all. Competetive Roleplaying?

Tan9oSuccka · November 2018

Valrien wrote: »

Synthwavius wrote: »

What if my redguard's mother was an altmer? It doesn't make any sense to not have any magika passives in such case.

Then your Redguard would be an Altmer, as in ES lore the race is determined by the mother with minute features being given by the father.

You'd be an Altmer that kind of maybe looks a little bit like a tall yellow redguard with angular features

If you're gonna comment about RP then at least learn the lore

Sheesh. That combo would produce “a face only a mother could love”.

Starlock · November 2018

Ackwalan wrote: »

That would mean, only a few passives would ever be used, since everyone would gravitate to the meta.

I wouldn't. Neither would others who doesn't give two $#^% about "the meta." So much for "everyone," huh?

bellanca6561n · November 2018

BretonMage wrote: »

bellanca6561n wrote: »

It wasn't just the strange zone chat in the Alik'r, or the fact that my sole Redguard using the bank in Belkarth was the only character getting mud packs thrown at her in that bank. The complaints that Dunmer gals all have "a resting *** face" and "You can't make a Dark Elf female look like a Western woman." There was also this,

You see this sort of thing in every game and we've seen lots more of it in the past couple of years for obvious reasons. But it got me to wondering if there wasn't something fundamentally wrong about the idea of fixed racial traits, something insidious and irresponsible beyond gameplay.

These are trolls/extremists trying to desensitise people to racism and extremist violence. They will still be there even if racial passives are removed. Those comments should be subject to moderation and the users banned tbh.

The thing is that racial passives have always been part of RPGs and TES, and they were there long before racists decided MMOs were their fertile hunting ground.

Oh I know. Been playing online games since Air Warrior in '86 and began working in the industry in '91. One of my first tasks was to comb the host logs due to a complaint by one of our customers that a player had called her the "c-word." Never found that. Found a lot of other things though.

That stuff will always be with us and no game, no game ruleset, no game feature will make it go away. But you can compound it, in my view. I believe it's fair to ask the question in this case.

But that's not the strongest argument for decoupling them. It's just one factor.

So many factors, some of them quite small, go into the tone of a game community. I could list many that would surprise many of you, as they surprised the hell out of me.

But, mostly, I wanted to know how folks felt about this. In online games, and in anything to do with communities, an ancient rule still applies:

Vox Populi, Vox Dei

The voice of the people is the voice of God.

dodgehopper_ESO · November 2018

Drummerx04 wrote: »

In before "this is like asking for vampire passives without being hideous"

Vampires take a steaming dump on the balance of this game and they always have. I hate Vampires and their implementation.

dodgehopper_ESO · November 2018

Recremen wrote: »

Well some races being better at certain things is written in the lore, except for all those times where it isn't, or where the lore contradicts itself, etc. But then we just ignore it because we prefer to cherry-pick the lore bits that reinforce our existing proclivities. Which in this case is primarily traditionalist gaming culture which says that races need to be so different that they have measurable game mechanic effects, which just happens to reflect the incredibly racist and unscientific real-world attitudes at the time when this sort of design feature was first put to paper. But it's tradition, so we have no reason to re-examine our approach or expectations to better reflect a rich and dynamic game world, and instead can resolve ourselves to contentedly calcify our perceptions until all characters are little more than race memes. After all, who doesn't want every Khajiit to be a skooma-addled sneakthief and every Redguard to be a big dumb warrior?

Sarcasm aside, even lore giants like Michael Kirkbride have chimed in saying that it's pretty *** up we have these huge race differences when there's no need for them mechanically, nor any lore to support this kind of essentializing of complex people. The only "lore" that supports these game mechanics is the fact that most (but not all!) other TES games have also had such elements in them. Even if we just go by these mechanics, there's been an incredible amount of inconsistency across titles. Just take Breton for example. Usually they get a spread of "magicka" and "intelligence" related racial bonuses, but in Shadowkey they got Fatigue and Health recovery bonuses. What do we do, ignore that because it doesn't fit the primary pattern? Give them both so they're good at everything?

I say just throw it all out the window and have these "race" passives be turned into something else that's uncoupled from race selection entirely. I chose Khajiit for my main for RP purposes, not because I was super duper excited about a health regen build. Sure, I get by on my build with whatever passives my race came with/gets changed to, but it's sort of dumb and unnecessary. We aren't adding value by making our race choice matter in relation to combat mechanics, we're just reinforcing a decades-old tradition of robbing game worlds of their complexity and shoehorning people into either suboptimal performance or catering their role to their race.

I don't think it is 'racist'. There is a reason you see an awful lot of Bulgarians in Olympic weightlifting. There is a reason you see a lot of Jamaicans winning races. Part of it is cultural but part of it is actual physiological differences. There is a reason you see swimmers with long bodies and big chests. Part of it is physics and part of it is physiology. There are literally people in the Andes who store oxygen better than the rest of us because their people have lived up on the clouds for millenia. This doesn't make people with differences any less valuable or any less people. Redguards are not portrayed as dumb oafs (Nords are though which is borderline offensive).

The reality is that you're dealing in the law of averages. The Average person of a people group might make a better swimmer, or Runner, or weightlifter. Sometimes people are outliers though. In a nation of more than a billion people you end up with a Chinese guy so large he plays basketball in the NBA (Yao Ming). He is by no means a normal Chinese person though. I do wish there were a way for players to be the Yao Ming of their people though. I'd love it if I could be the Altmer Warrior, or the Redguard Wizard and not be mediocre as hell. -THAT- is the flaw of the system we have now.

My really old suggestion a long time ago was that they make racial bonuses a static passive number. In other words Altmer could get a static +4000 magic and +282 magic regeneration, or something like this along with a bonus +200 Fire damage, Ice Damage, or Lightning damage depending on what you are attacking with. The point I'm making here is that you'd still be at an advantage but it would make room for other builds. An Imperial might be +4500 health, +4000 Stamina and Red Diamond would just need a rework. The worst (niche) passives would need changing such as Red Diamond or Adrenaline rush.

Another option that seemed reasonable was to have some passive choices to suit roles such as healer, tank, magdam/stamdam.

I think most of us like there to be some unique differences. After all, Khajiit and argonians have tails and claws. Nords, Orcs and Redguards are generally just built more muscular than everyone else. I do think the system has it stands though significantly favors the Dunmer. Lets get serious for a moment. Fire staves are the best magic damage. Dunmer get massive fire staff bonuses. A Breton won't compete with that, much less an Argonian or a Khajiit. The Dunmer will hit a very HUGE amount more than a race that is bad at magic.