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What's Wrong With Decoupling Character Passives From Race?

  • SugaComa
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    How about having lineage ...

    So i may choose an orc who is born of orcs ... I get increase in the orc passive

    But if I choose an orc with orc and Breton lineage then I get a mix of orc and Breton passives

    This allows a bit more importance in choosing not only a race but your characters birthline
  • spartaxoxo
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    Straight stat bonuses should be tied to how much points you have put into that stat.

    Racial passives should be things like the Khajit pickpocket passive, things that are neat and nice to have but don't make it so a particular race cannot perform just as well as another once you are maxed out.
  • Elsonso
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    Passives don't define race; look does. It's an RPG, and those hollering about 'just change your race' are diluting the game by treating their characters like blobs of pixels with numbers attached. Some of us want to play races we love and still be good at our roles.

    In a fantasy RPG, passives do frequently define the race. Going all the way back to Dungeons and Dragons, which was a heavy influence on the Elder Scrolls series, races were not equal in every role. It's perfectly fine that Elder Scrolls does not treat races interchangeably.

    The problem that ZOS has, and what I am hoping they overcome, is that players don't have enough reason to be something else. There will always be a best combination, but in ESO, the best stands out as clearly superior over alternatives. This leads to FotM cookie cutter builds.

    XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
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    Total in-game hours: 11321
    X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus
  • John_Falstaff
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    @lordrichter , it's nowhere near fine because ESO is also MMO. It must cater to both MMO and RPG parts, it's a multiplayer game. Makes it cardinally different case, and can't compare to all other single-player RPGs. The game has bloody leaderboards in it, of course people will look at superior combinations, we have competitive element built right into the game - so there will be always peer pressure. Racial bonuses must go.
  • Elsonso
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    @lordrichter , it's nowhere near fine because ESO is also MMO. It must cater to both MMO and RPG parts, it's a multiplayer game. Makes it cardinally different case, and can't compare to all other single-player RPGs. The game has bloody leaderboards in it, of course people will look at superior combinations, we have competitive element built right into the game - so there will be always peer pressure. Racial bonuses must go.

    Plenty fine. MMORPGs do not need to have everything with an interchangeable parts. Really.
    XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
    PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
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  • John_Falstaff
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    @lordrichter , anything to back that statement, aside from 'really'? I did lay out my arguments.
  • firedrgn
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    A mini cp point system might be kewl. Put points into what u want and be able to change them.
    Roll a characrer because you want not because the passives you want.
  • Facefister
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    I was looking at another of one of those...polls, this one about some talk of upcoming "rebalancing" of racial passives.

    Can we just STOP tying character passives to RACE?

    Roll a character. During the process choose the passives you want, limited of course. Assume every character, regardless of race, has their own individual abilities based on the player who created them, and let that be an end to it.

    Shalidor was a Nord. We see Redguard and Orc mages among the NPCs. Plus this is the 21st Century after all, for what that's worth ;)

    Cherrypicking certain individuals from certain race for their feats isn't really an argument, I mean the tribunal consists of dunmers... get my point?
  • Elsonso
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    @lordrichter , anything to back that statement, aside from 'really'? I did lay out my arguments.

    No, pretty much just that. I don't know what to tell you. I have said plenty across a number of threads. Besides, this is not my problem to design a solution for. I can tell you that Elder Scrolls races are not interchangeable in design, and that does need to step aside for multiplayer games. ZOS just needs to do it right.

    XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
    PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
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    Total in-game hours: 11321
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  • Taleof2Cities
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    I’d be OK with this argument if the game was a single-player RPG.

    But it’s not ... it’s an MMO.

    Not to mention racials have a very steep lore connotation.
  • ChunkyCat
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    Shalidor was a Nord, but that’s probably why he sucked as a mage.

    If he had rolled himself as an Altmer instead, then maybe he wouldn’t have needed my help just to pick up a few books. Seriously.

    What a noob.
  • Yolokin_Swagonborn
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    What's wrong with it is that ZOS is still nerfing things without identifying, or admitting, the real underlying problem.
    • Why have we had almost 3 major patches with nothing but brutal nerfs?
    • Why Does ZOS feel they have to nerf the game every major patch?

    The answer to those questions is vast power creep caused mainly from two sources: One, from the poorly designed champion system and two, from ZOS's obcession in making better gear every patch so that you have to pay to grind the latest DLC/chapter to be BIS.

    Since Moronwind, ZOS has been brutally nerfing sustain, class passives, and draining utility from class skills all to compensate for the power creep.

    But it's never enough.

    They keep adding champion points to the game and adding new more powerful sets.

    Now that ZOS has ran out of class skills and passives to nerf, they are looking at those juicy racials.

    Nerfing racials is the logical next step in controling power creep. It would put out the fire temporarily. Here's how.
    Lets take any racial that has 10% flat max stat increase to their main stat (redguard, altmer, etc) Most DPS are running a racial that gives them 10% to their damage stat. Over a large stat pool like 35k, that buff represents 3.5k more resources, which scales with damage and effectively 350 more weapon or spell damage. If ZOS just removes all flat percentages from racials, they can steal 350 weapon/spell damage from everyone's build. Perfect. Powercreep solved. Now lets dish out another 20 champion points and a new DLC with an even more powerful DPS set.

    Do you see the problem here? If you do, please explain it to ZOS. It not, I will spell it out.

    It feels really bad to get your personal class, build, racial choice nerfed and made less significant patch after patch. Meanwhile, things you can't really customize, like the champion system (its all the same) and what ever BIS gear you are forced to run, are the things that most define your character.
    Edited by Yolokin_Swagonborn on November 30, 2018 2:43AM
  • SydneyGrey
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    When you save Eyevea, you see mages of literally every single race in there afterward.
    Yet you can't have Redguard, Orc, Bosmer or Khajiit mages in the game. Well, ok ... you CAN, but they'll always have a bit less magicka sustain and total magicka than a magic-based race. This drives me crazy since I like all those races, but prefer to play magicka characters. LOL.
    Oh well, it is what it is.
  • wolfie1.0.
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    the problem i see is that race matters because of how the passives are designed AND the frequent stat and skill nerfs. as they continue to nerf everything else the racial passives become more important.

    Dear ZOS. How about when you balance you balance everything at once.... and throughly test EVERY combination?
  • TheShadowScout
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    What's Wrong With Decoupling Character Passives From Race?
    In one word: LORE

    In more detail... you are basically asking what would be wrong with decoupling -physical- advantages brought on by millenia of natural selection and genetic adaptation. Kinda like asking to "decouple" gills and webbed toes from amphibeous argonians or "mystic connection with magical forces" from elven races or any of the other fluff that makes a fantasy race what they are. Might as well "decouple" size from giants and horns from minotaurs while you are at it, huh? Yeah, its like that.
    But generally yes: in MMO, rules change. People shouldn't feel peer pressure for choosing 'inferior' race (which they like) for their role (which they like).
    ...and here we get to the better question:
    Should the way the racial perks are depicted in the ruleset as of now change to allow for more options?
    And, well, my thoughts on the matter are on record: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/442350/character-background-passives ;)
    The racial perks ought to be an -advantage-, but not an insurmountable one. Not an "must be this race to play that" pigeonholing. A leg up sure at the beginning, sure, but no "percentage bonus on top of everything" at the end... just like it was in older TES games!!!
    And there could very well be other passives that take this spot, freely selectable "background" passives... well, see the link ;)
    SugaComa wrote: »
    But if I choose an orc with orc and Breton lineage then I get a mix of orc and Breton passives
    Nope.
    The powers that be decreed that in the elder scrolls universe, a child has the "racial traits of the mother", and wrote it into their lore; so there is that. Your orc with breton lineage would still have orc racial passives, though some breton-ish looks as "traces of the father" would be present.
    Thats it.
    ...which brings us back to thinking about -how- those racial traits ought to be depicted in the rulework, and what else might be considered for character passives... like background... ;)
    ChunkyCat wrote: »
    Shalidor was a Nord...
    ...and worked really, really hard to get to the same level altmer reach easily. And since they lazed around at that level, secure in their supposed superiority, while he kept working very, very hard... he became a legend as the lone nord archmage, and noone cares much about the many altmer archmages since they are a dime a dozen throughout Tamriels history, hiding on the Summerset Isles and never doing all that much for the most part...
    (Imagine... some altmer level 50 sorcerors with 300 CP who spend all their time posting on the forums about how great they are instead of actually playing and a single nord level 50 sorceror with 3000 CP and no cap thanks to spending decades questing and grinding... that's most altmer mages compared to Shalidor! :p;) )
  • idk
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    @Recremen , good attempt, but no. Doesn't work like that in MMORPG. In single player, sure, but in competitive multiplayer game, you don't make some races best at one thing and others at other, considering that there are more races than things that really matter in the gameplay. People can RP what they want, and then they go on their character to a dungeon and bloody tank it, and they can imagine that he spent his youth in gyms and whatnot for all I know. Their business; and not your business to prevent them from playing race they like and being good at what they do.

    If this is what you are using as an attempt to provide a compelling argument to Zos then it seems you failed because they already chose to abandon efforts to permit players to choose the passives of a different race 2 years ago. They actually stated they were looking at that as the race change but did a hard 180 and kept passives tied to their race and appearance.

    I am not arguing with you. Just pointing out a clear history with Zos.
  • John_Falstaff
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    @idk , well, they just a couple of weeks ago announced that they're going to allow different sets (or whatever counterpart) of passives that would make every race suitable for every role, I think that's pretty much 180 compared to that effort from 2 years ago that you're describing. I'm not actually trying to provide a compelling argument to ZOS - I know better than that, they're not in the habit of listening to anything - but if anything, their history is a history of 'ouch, we did not really want to make that change'. So, everything's possible.

    @TheShadowScout , and I totally could get behind the 'background' passives. Some of those (like khajiit's pickpocketing skill) already feel like they're related to upbringing rather than skill, and the background perks would make much more sense from RP perspective than anything else.
  • BretonMage
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    Even if it is an MMO, it's an MMO set in the Elder Scrolls universe, where certain races do have certain innate racial advantages. ZOS still need to follow lore.
  • Recremen
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    What's Wrong With Decoupling Character Passives From Race?
    In one word: LORE

    In more detail... you are basically asking what would be wrong with decoupling -physical- advantages brought on by millenia of natural selection and genetic adaptation. Kinda like asking to "decouple" gills and webbed toes from amphibeous argonians or "mystic connection with magical forces" from elven races or any of the other fluff that makes a fantasy race what they are. Might as well "decouple" size from giants and horns from minotaurs while you are at it, huh? Yeah, its like that.
    But generally yes: in MMO, rules change. People shouldn't feel peer pressure for choosing 'inferior' race (which they like) for their role (which they like).
    ...and here we get to the better question:
    Should the way the racial perks are depicted in the ruleset as of now change to allow for more options?
    And, well, my thoughts on the matter are on record: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/442350/character-background-passives ;)
    The racial perks ought to be an -advantage-, but not an insurmountable one. Not an "must be this race to play that" pigeonholing. A leg up sure at the beginning, sure, but no "percentage bonus on top of everything" at the end... just like it was in older TES games!!!
    And there could very well be other passives that take this spot, freely selectable "background" passives... well, see the link ;)
    SugaComa wrote: »
    But if I choose an orc with orc and Breton lineage then I get a mix of orc and Breton passives
    Nope.
    The powers that be decreed that in the elder scrolls universe, a child has the "racial traits of the mother", and wrote it into their lore; so there is that. Your orc with breton lineage would still have orc racial passives, though some breton-ish looks as "traces of the father" would be present.
    Thats it.
    ...which brings us back to thinking about -how- those racial traits ought to be depicted in the rulework, and what else might be considered for character passives... like background... ;)
    ChunkyCat wrote: »
    Shalidor was a Nord...
    ...and worked really, really hard to get to the same level altmer reach easily. And since they lazed around at that level, secure in their supposed superiority, while he kept working very, very hard... he became a legend as the lone nord archmage, and noone cares much about the many altmer archmages since they are a dime a dozen throughout Tamriels history, hiding on the Summerset Isles and never doing all that much for the most part...
    (Imagine... some altmer level 50 sorcerors with 300 CP who spend all their time posting on the forums about how great they are instead of actually playing and a single nord level 50 sorceror with 3000 CP and no cap thanks to spending decades questing and grinding... that's most altmer mages compared to Shalidor! :p;) )

    @TheShadowScout

    What are you even going on about? Natural selection? Genetic adaptation? The TES races were created by gods. There is only a single lorebook (Notes On Racial Phylogeny) that mentions anything even close to "natural selection", and even that was speculative hypothesis. I'm not sure why you link it as proof when it's been observed to be false. That book has also been shown to be demonstrably false regarding some of its other claims, so while it's a nice snippet that gives us insight into the TES world's scholarly community it's hardly a definitive source to go based True Lore claims off. And sorry, gills? Webbed toes? Not finding anything in the lore on those. There's a single reference to an Argonian with webbed hands in one lore book, but we see that all the in-game Argonian models don't have that.

    In any case, some minor thing like the ability to breath water is hardly the same as one race being automatically stronger or smarter than another. There isn't any lore proving that Altmer, for instance, are automatically good spellcasters. They make big claims, sure, but every race claims they're the best at everything. How are we supposed to believe an Altmer's "mystic connection with magical forces" is any more potent than a Bosmer's, a Nord's, a Redguard's, a Khajiit's, etc. when they all ALSO have rich magical traditions including but not limited to magic of The Green, wind-related magic, sand-related magic, and the Lunar Lattice, respectively? How are we supposed to believe that Orcs are the ultimate warriors when literally every race goes on and on about their time-tested martial traditions? There's even a lorebook about how a Khajiit martial arts master gets wrecked by a Dunmer janitor at his own style, and the Khajiit literally invented the system.

    And that's not cherry-picking exceptions to the rule, that is the rule.

    When it gets down to it, a thorough examination of the lore does not reveal evidence to keep essentializing the TES races. Instead, we are confronted with an incredibly diverse population of all races filling an enormous variety of roles in society. The idea that racial passives are "lore" is one of the worst cases of the tail wagging the dog that I've seen. The reason we have racial passives isn't because it's been spelled out in the lore, the reason we have them is that it's been a part of game design forever and too few people are brave enough to question it or subvert it.
    Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
    Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster
  • temjiu
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    1) Lore. Passives make races mean something other then a different skin.
    2) Canon. Race has always had an impact in ES.
    3) Balance. It's always easier to have more interesting and different passives when they are race locked. unlocking means you will nullify 75% of the passives since they are more RP focused and players will min/max and ignore them, and then Zeni will nerf all the cool ones so the uncool ones will be more intersting. result = all passives will suck. at least atm some passives are nice, others are acceptable, and the rest are part of the racial lore.
  • Alchemical
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    Because it's a dumb idea to remove racial passives from races, that's why.
    /thread
  • TheShadowScout
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    Recremen wrote: »
    The TES races were created by gods.
    Some were, in the lore. Others changed other time... what else do you think to call that?

    And of course, the argument is even stronger for those races that -were- created by divine fiat - their racial traits come from godly intervention after all, and thus would not be "freely selectable" or something like that, yes?

    The others... do you really want to try and make a case that millenia of "warriors supreme!" culture has nothing to do with redguards excelling at sword swinging? Or millenia of living in frozen skyrim has nothing to do with nord cold resistance?
    Recremen wrote: »
    In any case, some minor thing like the ability to breath water is hardly the same as one race being automatically stronger or smarter than another. There isn't any lore proving that Altmer, for instance, are automatically good spellcasters.
    ...and neither are people -required- to put skill points into those passives, are they now?
    So its entirely possible to make an altmer that is not a good spellcaster. Your point? ;)

    And I keep saying, I too dislike the "percentage on top" depiction that -makes- one race stronger or smarter... well, more stamina-ish and more magica-ish anyhow.

    But I also want to preserve the lore that is saying: "The Altmer are the most strongly gifted in the arcane arts of all the races" or telling us "Redguards are also physically blessed with hardy constitutions" - just in other ways, ways like in older TES games where those racial traits gave a leg up at he start instead of a advantage on top of everything.
    Recremen wrote: »
    How are we supposed to believe...
    Because the game designers wrote it into their racial descriptions!
    Duh! :p;)
    Recremen wrote: »
    And that's not cherry-picking exceptions to the rule...
    Actually, that would be just that.
    Not that it would matter, because there -always- are exceptions to any rule, and when it comes to racial traits, the exceptions will actually be a large enough group to be the majority among the common people.
    Maybe less so among the adventurer heroes, simply because those who are "not good enough at what they do" may not survive to make it to "hero" status (and remained soul shriven in coldharbour or whatnot), but still...
    And in any case, a racial advantage that remians undeveloped does not mean much. No matter how magical an altmers blood is, they still will not be winning a spell battle against an orc shaman if they trained as a musician instead of a sorceror... yes?
    Recremen wrote: »
    The reason we have racial passives isn't because it's been spelled out in the lore, the reason we have them is that it's been a part of game design forever and too few people are brave enough to question it or subvert it.
    Truth. The reason it is part of the lore is that it is part of the initial TES game design after all.

    But that does not mean you get to ignore the game design when suggesting things... ESO -is- an "Elder Scrolls" game after all, so it follows that it adhers to the elder scrolls design, right?

    Want to question or change the game design?
    Buy the lincense!
    Then you may make whatever changes you like.

    But as for us here, well... we should strive to think of possible gamne improvements -within- the existing "Elder Scrolls" design, not throw away everything and make up something else.
    If you like something else better... some other design policy... make your own game. :p;):D
  • Personofsecrets
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    They should have been decoupled years ago.
  • Katahdin
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    Well lore or no lore, they are making changes to racial passives

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/445615/combat-update-in-u21-a-new-approach/p1

    If they are announcing this, that means they have already checked with the loremasters at Bethesda and it has been approved.

    With a single player game, the racial passives we have now dont impact one player over another in a significant way.
    However in an MMO, they can make a huge difference.

    Players have stated that there is no freedom in class/role choice if you are trying to be the most effective in your role.

    As it is, redguard is the only real choice for stamina DPS.
    Other classes in the same build have less regen and less overall stamina (like 3K -5K less).
    The differences are significant so much so the other races are effectively gimped when it comes to stamina DPS

    Magicka DPS its Altmer sorc and Dark Elf nightblade

    Tanks and healers its Argonian

    Hopefully this will allow for other choices in race/class combos besides the 4 current "meta races"

    Edited by Katahdin on November 30, 2018 5:05AM
    Beta tester November 2013
  • Recremen
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    @TheShadowScout
    Some were, in the lore. Others changed other time... what else do you think to call that?

    Which races changed over time? Is it "none of them"? I'm pretty sure that's the answer. We do have some that changed via magickal means, such as the Chimer changing to the Dunmer, the Aldmer changing to the Altmer and Bosmer, or the Altmer changing to the Orsimer, but that was all done magickally, through Dawn Era shenaynays, etc.
    And of course, the argument is even stronger for those races that -were- created by divine fiat - their racial traits come from godly intervention after all, and thus would not be "freely selectable" or something like that, yes?

    The argument is not stronger as there is still no actual references to base it on. Pick a race and go over their creation myth. Show me where it says they were gifted above all the other races in some particular trait by the gods themselves. The only one I can think of is the Khajiit (Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi to her Favored Daughter), who claim to be the best at everything in their creation myth (though I think it's fair to interpret this as a tongue-in-cheek sort of thing). Even if you could find a creation myth to support your claim (and I'm pretty certain you can't) it would still have to be interpreted through the lens of the reporting culture, which is more likely to stem from a desire for self-promotion than actual truth. At the end of the day, there isn't a lorebook where Y'ffre reaches down to the Bosmer and gives them a stealth bonus.
    The others... do you really want to try and make a case that millenia of "warriors supreme!" culture has nothing to do with redguards excelling at sword swinging? Or millenia of living in frozen skyrim has nothing to do with nord cold resistance?

    Redguards having a complex warrior-revering culture gives them an exciting history and nuance. It does not make them automatically good at swinging swords, no, and certainly not automatically better than members of other races, who all also have rich warrior traditions. Redguards were and are portrayed as having a rich and fully-developed society, with farmers and artisans and politicians and warriors and everything. It is absolute folly to think that having a warrior aspect to their culture (which again, EVERYONE has) led to selective pressure across the whole population for more warrior-like traits. At the end of the day most people were probably growing crops and building cities. And no, Nord cold resist doesn't make sense from living in Skyrim as there's no reason to believe it had that much of a selective pressure when they went and built houses and fires and warm clothing. A 9% cold resist is a huge deal which has no real-life corollary. We don't see adaptations among real human populations with that sort of power.
    ...and neither are people -required- to put skill points into those passives, are they now?
    So its entirely possible to make an altmer that is not a good spellcaster. Your point? ;)

    Sorry, do you actually care about basing your argument on what's in the lore, or are you just BSing for the sake of it? You aren't providing evidence with those kind of snide remarks, you're just avoiding the argument.
    But I also want to preserve the lore that is saying: "The Altmer are the most strongly gifted in the arcane arts of all the races" or telling us "Redguards are also physically blessed with hardy constitutions" - just in other ways, ways like in older TES games where those racial traits gave a leg up at he start instead of a advantage on top of everything.
    Recremen wrote: »
    How are we supposed to believe...
    Because the game designers wrote it into their racial descriptions!
    Duh! :p;)

    First, you are using the in-game character select or user manual descriptions, which are being used to explain the racial bonuses, as the definitive lore source, when that (the game mechanics) is literally the thing I am calling into question. Maybe you just searched the UESP lore page and didn't follow up, but I did, and that isn't a description from in-game lore. Like I said, totally wagging the dog over here. Second, while I think the idea of an initial leg up with equal caps is much less onerous, it is still goes fundamentally against the complexities that we see in actual character actions across both the lore and the NPCs. There's just no reason in Morrowind, for example, for Redguards to start with such huge negatives to their mental states compared to other races, especially when you can choose your class to indicate what your character was already supposed to be trained for. I have more on why this line of reasoning doesn't hold water, but it looks like I need to save some of it for later in the post.
    Actually, that would be just that.
    Not that it would matter, because there -always- are exceptions to any rule, and when it comes to racial traits, the exceptions will actually be a large enough group to be the majority among the common people.
    Maybe less so among the adventurer heroes, simply because those who are "not good enough at what they do" may not survive to make it to "hero" status (and remained soul shriven in coldharbour or whatnot), but still...
    And in any case, a racial advantage that remians undeveloped does not mean much. No matter how magical an altmers blood is, they still will not be winning a spell battle against an orc shaman if they trained as a musician instead of a sorceror... yes?

    No, it isn't. I don't know how many of the in-game lorebooks you've read, but we constantly see characters acting and excelling outside the supposed calling of their race. Giving examples is not cherry-picking data, it's illustrating the point with some of the more memorable examples. Additionally, you seem to not understand how exceptions and majorities work. If people acting out of the expectations for their race is an exception, then they don't become the majority when you examine a larger portion of the population. That's not how scaling statistical data works. They ought to still be a tiny minority, but they are not.

    This is also not about racial advantages being underdeveloped as there is still no lore evidence for those existing. You can come up with all kinds of hypotheticals when you presuppose your conclusion to be true, but that's not what you ought to be doing if you want to build a convincing argument. Find in the lore where it says that a particular race automatically has a stat advantage over the others in some area. The only thing that exists is the game description for the racial passives, which are the very things under fire. You can't make a great case for them if they are their own (and only) supporting evidence.
    Truth. The reason it is part of the lore is that it is part of the initial TES game design after all.

    But that does not mean you get to ignore the game design when suggesting things... ESO -is- an "Elder Scrolls" game after all, so it follows that it adhers to the elder scrolls design, right?

    Want to question or change the game design?
    Buy the lincense!
    Then you may make whatever changes you like.

    But as for us here, well... we should strive to think of possible gamne improvements -within- the existing "Elder Scrolls" design, not throw away everything and make up something else.
    If you like something else better... some other design policy... make your own game. :p;):D

    And here's where we come back around to why game design decisions are a bad place to pick up lore secrets. Take a look back at all the racials through all the TES games. I know I did. There are loads of inconsistencies and one game (Battlespire) where there WERE no racial passives! Which Altmer racials are the true lore, for instance? The one where they got Paralyzation immunity? The one where they got bonus Max Magicka but a weakness to almost everything? The one where they get a little extra Magicka, a once-per-day Magicka Recovery buff, and fatigue resistance, but no Attribute changes because those don't exist suddenly? The one where they get Nothing, because again Battlespire did an entirely different thing where you literally got to pick and choose these sorts of advantages?

    Which of those is the real canon?

    It's also pretty silly to try and give a final dismissal of any attempts at criticism with a "you don't own the license for the game so nuts to you" argument. Player feedback has repeatedly been a vital part of the development cycle, and I know you yourself have participated in it. And what wonderful changes they've made as a result of constructive criticism! We have armor dyes, costumes, an outfit system, player housing, and universal horse stats all thanks in part to player feedback and messaging. Or do we have to pretend that only the most current game mechanics are the real lore? Are we sure that feeding horses apples for speed isn't canon?
    Edited by Recremen on November 30, 2018 7:31AM
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  • Mayrael
    Mayrael
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    Because money. ZOS needs to sell those darn race change tickets :/
    Say no to Toxic Casuals!
    I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.


    "Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge
  • Mayrael
    Mayrael
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    Ackwalan wrote: »
    That would mean, only a few passives would ever be used, since everyone would gravitate to the meta.

    They already do, but as I said before they need to use $ to do it, because of this race passives will always be bound to certain race.
    Say no to Toxic Casuals!
    I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.


    "Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge
  • MLGProPlayer
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    Mayrael wrote: »
    Because money. ZOS needs to sell those darn race change tickets :/

    This is the real reason why we have racial passives. There is no basis for them in the lore.

    Shalidor, a Nord, was one of the most powerful mages to ever live. But according to ESO racial passives, this would not be possible since Nords cannot be gifted mages.
    Edited by MLGProPlayer on November 30, 2018 8:42AM
  • Elwendryll
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    What about being able to choose passive morphs, and nords could take a bonus to magicka, but the bonus would be better if they choose health, and lower than what a high elf would have?
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  • Bigevilpeter
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    Passives has always been race dependant in every ES game, it is neccesary for game immerssion
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