Rollback Some Snare Immunity Changes

Vapirko · November 2018

While I’m sure a lot of people are going to naysay this because everyone’s still busy screaming for stamina nerfs, here it is.

Snare immunity is garbage. FM providing 4 seconds of immunity is just barely sufficient and should probably be more like 6. The two seconds you get from shuffle might as well be non existent especially if you’re lagging. Why are medium armor users given less mobility? Rally is a must have for most medium users, and if everything was being “brought into line” why wasn’t shuffle brought up to FM at least? The AOE mitigation is pretty good, but it’s also more expensive than FM. Anyway I hope the class reps can get ZOS to do something about snare immunity. Every patch it gets more like fighting through sludge and there are SO MANY skills that provide a snare, and not just melee abilities but lots of ranged single target and AOE abilities that just make it so easy for groups to lock down and Xv1. The one boon given to solo and small scale players should be mobility.

(I also believe magicka needs some kind of snare immunity but I’ve no idea how to implement it except maybe attaching it to a mages guild skill line or something)

LeHarrt91 · November 2018

I completely agree that again snares seem very plentiful. My MagDen would absolutely love a few seconds of snare immunity (can be given to Wings since they reduced the expedition duration by 60%)

Vapirko · November 2018

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

I completely agree that again snares seem very plentiful. My MagDen would absolutely love a few seconds of snare immunity (can be given to Wings since they reduced the expedition duration by 60%)

I really do think every class should have access to some snare immunity. It’s just no fun to constantly be spamming snare immunity skills, and moving in slow motion.

LeHarrt91 · November 2018

Vapirko wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

I completely agree that again snares seem very plentiful. My MagDen would absolutely love a few seconds of snare immunity (can be given to Wings since they reduced the expedition duration by 60%)

I really do think every class should have access to some snare immunity. It’s just no fun to constantly be spamming snare immunity skills, and moving in slow motion.

For me it would be mainly classes that lack mobility. But i certainly agree about the shuffle increase.

NirnStorm · November 2018

To be honest, I'd be so much happier if they just made snares work as a major/minor system so there's a clear (and reasonable) limit to the snares you can take at any given moment.

jaime1982 · November 2018

I was thinking FM should be brought down to 3 secs and you're over here talking about 6 lol.

frostz417 · November 2018

This game needs a snare&root cooldown. Absolutely dumb that roots are spammable

React · November 2018

Snares should be minor and major, and there should be a root immunity tied to CC immunity, or a new immunity to roots granted by breaking a root through any means (purify/purge, dodge roll, casting a snare break such as wings/shuffle/FM). Shuffle should have it's immunity brought up to at least 4 seconds.

The snare/root meta is ridiculous right now. I'm not complaining about speed being nerfed, as the multiple swift meta was equally ridiculous. But the problem with a snare meta is that snares & roots become so exponentially stronger when you're outnumbered. Things like frost WoE, impaling shards, and talons/fossilize are becoming extremely popular in BG's, to the point where you'll encounter games with 3 or 4 of these builds across the two enemy teams. You can literally dodge roll after being rooted in a WoE and be rooted mid dodge roll by the same ability. In open world, ranged roots like frost clench are being run on 40k+ health magicka warden & templar builds, for the sole purpose of preventing solo/small groups of players from running away from the large groups/zergs.

Snare immunity is barely available in this game. You have shuffle, forward momentum, and mist form. Shuffle is now functioning more as a mitigation skill than a snare immunity, as 2.5 seconds is USELESS as an immunity. Forward momentum needed to be nerfed as 8s was too long of an immunity, but shuffle was not brought up to the same duration. Thus, heavy armor stam builds still have more mobility than medium armor ones, overall. In addition to this, magicka builds have access to mist form, something that stamina builds cannot afford to use. Mist form may have it's disadvantages, but it is still a 4 second immunity with a myriad of other benefits, which overall is allowing many magicka specs to be more mobile than medium armor stam ones.

The game is going in the direction of 30k health builds standing permanent immobilized near one another spamming PBAoE skills and healing eachother to death. This is the exact opposite direction of where we want to go.

BuddyAces · November 2018

I'd like to have it at least work first. That along with cc immunity. Why does it feel like this only works on my guys maybe 25 percent of the time..

Sorry, had to whine.

ATomiX96 · November 2018

3.5 seconds for commiting to 7 medium pieces, less than forward momentum btw.
Another reason to pass on medium armor, but I understand that giving 1 second snare immunity for each medium piece would be way too much (in comparison to other snare removal) and ZOS doesnt wanna play around with values in between.

React · November 2018

ATomiX96 wrote: »

3.5 seconds for commiting to 7 medium pieces, less than forward momentum btw.
Another reason to pass on medium armor, but I understand that giving 1 second snare immunity for each medium piece would be way too much and ZOS doesnt wanna play around with values in between.

If it was .75s per piece of medium armor, 5 pieces would be 3.75 seconds, with a maximum of 5.25 seconds at 7 pieces of medium. I think this would be a very reasonable change to make shuffle a comparable snare immunity to forward and mist form. Most stam builds in medium have to run 5 med with either 2 heavy or 1/1, to help their max stats and resistances. You could achieve a higher snare immunity value than the other options by committing to 7 medium, which would present an actual give/take trade off that hasn't really existed in a long time.

Waffennacht · November 2018

Ok - there's a misinterpretation going on:

When you roll dodge you do gain 2 sec immunity to roots - except when caused by immobilization poisons

They ignore that immunity.

If you are rooted mid roll it's because the poison procced - not because there's no immunity

I think it's a bug but no official response

React · November 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ok - there's a misinterpretation going on:

When you roll dodge you do gain 2 sec immunity to roots - except when caused by immobilization poisons

They ignore that immunity.

If you are rooted mid roll it's because the poison procced - not because there's no immunity

I think it's a bug but no official response

The dodge roll immunity never functioned properly from the patch they added it to the game. I've tested and used it quite extensively. If you'd like I can show you ingame how it interacts with undodgeable ground aoe's that can root (impaling shards, frost WoE) to demonstrate how broken it is.

I might also add that every gap closer in the game also has an unavoidable .25s snare that bypasses every existing immunity because ZoS couldn't figure out how to get them to consistently connect without it.

The immobilize poisons have always gone through immunity. They had said that this was addressed several patches ago - which was untrue in wolfhunter, but I've yet to test it in murkmire.

ChunkyCat · November 2018

I can’t take two steps without being snared to a crawl. I don’t know wtf snare immunity you’re referring to, but it sure would be nice.

NBrookus · November 2018

Liam12548 wrote: »

Snare immunity is barely available in this game. You have shuffle, forward momentum, and mist form.

...

The game is going in the direction of 30k health builds standing permanent immobilized near one another spamming PBAoE skills and healing eachother to death. This is the exact opposite direction of where we want to go.

There's also 2 seconds of immunity on DK wings.

Yes, your description pretty much accurately describes much of pvp combat now unless you are a stam build running Forward, and even then the chasing zerg is going to root spam you to death. Or you run with a raid group with rapids and purge spammers.

Waffennacht · November 2018

Liam12548 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ok - there's a misinterpretation going on:

When you roll dodge you do gain 2 sec immunity to roots - except when caused by immobilization poisons

They ignore that immunity.

If you are rooted mid roll it's because the poison procced - not because there's no immunity

I think it's a bug but no official response

The dodge roll immunity never functioned properly from the patch they added it to the game. I've tested and used it quite extensively. If you'd like I can show you ingame how it interacts with undodgeable ground aoe's that can root (impaling shards, frost WoE) to demonstrate how broken it is.

I might also add that every gap closer in the game also has an unavoidable .25s snare that bypasses every existing immunity because ZoS couldn't figure out how to get them to consistently connect without it.

The immobilize poisons have always gone through immunity. They had said that this was addressed several patches ago - which was untrue in wolfhunter, but I've yet to test it in murkmire.

I would love to see that. Just so I can be more informed.

The roots - roll do-roots is definitely caused by the poisons as far as I can test. I have not seen WoE function in a similar way (aka hitting a chilled opponent and that causing roots mid dodge)

I also have not had non-poison roots ignore the 2 sec immunity from what I can tell.

I absolutely believe it's buggy and could be causing this.

I also know and agree that they said it was fixed and never was

Crixus8000 · November 2018

I hate how speed is currently, especially on my stamsorc since it's meant to be fast. The loss to major expedition and getting completely locked down every 4 seconds makes me so slow. Everytime I try to run or try to get some los I get caught by even mag chars lol, even being an orc stamsorc using steed means nothing because I am snared so often.

Also I hate that immunity hardly works. I press forward momentum and then right away im rooted, press it again and the same thing happens. This annoys me so much when trying to play solo/smallscale, you nerf my speed and immunity into the ground, at least allow it to work properly for that short pathetic 4 seconds. I know poisons ignore immunity ( and that is pathetically op imo) but I get hit by snare skills all the time while I'm supposed to be immune.

Vapirko · November 2018

Liam12548 wrote: »

The game is going in the direction of 30k health builds standing permanent immobilized near one another spamming PBAoE skills and healing eachother to death. This is the exact opposite direction of where we want to go.

This is something I really, really hate about the current direction of PvP, especially in BGs as of now. I cannot stand the damage tank, AOE glob style of fighting. And I sincerely hope class reps are working to get ZOS on the right track.

ATomiX96 wrote: »

3.5 seconds for commiting to 7 medium pieces, less than forward momentum btw.
Another reason to pass on medium armor, but I understand that giving 1 second snare immunity for each medium piece would be way too much (in comparison to other snare removal) and ZOS doesnt wanna play around with values in between.

Actually 7 seconds for wearing full medium would probably be ok. Wearing 7 medium is pretty hard to do. But I think it would ultimately be easier to give shuffle a flat snare immunity duration of maybe 5 seconds (seems like we should get more than heavy), since you have to be wearing 5 pieces of medium to use it anyway.

LeHarrt91 · November 2018

Snares over ride each other don't they? the bigger snare overrides the smaller. If there was a Major/ Minor system you could then stack them both?

TheYKcid · November 2018

Yeah the magden balls in BGs are really getting out of hand. Can't push into them because of spore-swapping and perma, can't outposition them because you're locked down or forced to stay on an objective anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe the Magden class is OP on the whole, it just happens to excel at a playstyle that's heavily overperforming in BGs at the moment, mainly due to the speed changes.

Speed absolutely needed to be reduced due the the targeting issues involved, but anti-mobilty tools also needed to be downscaled concomitantly, and they weren't.

haakira · November 2018

Maybe they could rework one passive from Medium Armor to reduce the amount of snare you get from skills for each piece of medium armor up 50% of the skill's tooltip.

Essentially making a 50% snare only be 25%. Would definitely help a bit!

Vapirko · November 2018

haakira wrote: »

Maybe they could rework one passive from Medium Armor to reduce the amount of snare you get from skills for each piece of medium armor up 50% of the skill's tooltip.

Essentially making a 50% snare only be 25%. Would definitely help a bit!

The only issue with this is that when you’re trying to maneuver away from a group you don’t need less snare, you need the snares gone immediately and you need a small but sufficent window in which you are immune. In the situations where you really need snare immunity, any significant reduction would still mean the same outcome.

haakira · November 2018

Vapirko wrote: »

haakira wrote: »

Maybe they could rework one passive from Medium Armor to reduce the amount of snare you get from skills for each piece of medium armor up 50% of the skill's tooltip.

Essentially making a 50% snare only be 25%. Would definitely help a bit!

The only issue with this is that when you’re trying to maneuver away from a group you don’t need less snare, you need the snares gone immediately and you need a small but sufficent window in which you are immune. In the situations where you really need snare immunity, any significant reduction would still mean the same outcome.

I understand your point and feel the same way but this isn't really an easy thing to balance. Either you give too little snare immunity or you end up giving too much. Immunity to anything is always something hard to tweak.

When you slot a snare or choose to run snare/root focused builds, you're either losing damage, defensive skills or both. In order to so, you need to feel that it was a fair trade off to have certain skills included in your build.

Imagine yourself in the position of being a CC/Support build. You want your targets to be slowed, rooted and stunned. There have been times in the past where people would just run like sonic all the time immune to everything you threw at them. And thus, support builds were less popular cause they weren't really effective.

While it is indeed very annoying for the player getting cc'd, you can actually run a support build these days and be very successful with it and that's OK to have those builds being viable.

I'm not saying it's completely balanced as it is but maybe decreasing the amount of slow wouldn't freak people out so much.

Vapirko · November 2018

haakira wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

haakira wrote: »

Maybe they could rework one passive from Medium Armor to reduce the amount of snare you get from skills for each piece of medium armor up 50% of the skill's tooltip.

Essentially making a 50% snare only be 25%. Would definitely help a bit!

The only issue with this is that when you’re trying to maneuver away from a group you don’t need less snare, you need the snares gone immediately and you need a small but sufficent window in which you are immune. In the situations where you really need snare immunity, any significant reduction would still mean the same outcome.

I understand your point and feel the same way but this isn't really an easy thing to balance. Either you give too little snare immunity or you end up giving too much. Immunity to anything is always something hard to tweak.

When you slot a snare or choose to run snare/root focused builds, you're either losing damage, defensive skills or both. In order to so, you need to feel that it was a fair trade off to have certain skills included in your build.

Imagine yourself in the position of being a CC/Support build. You want your targets to be slowed, rooted and stunned. There have been times in the past where people would just run like sonic all the time immune to everything you threw at them. And thus, support builds were less popular cause they weren't really effective.

While it is indeed very annoying for the player getting cc'd, you can actually run a support build these days and be very successful with it and that's OK to have those builds being viable.

I'm not saying it's completely balanced as it is but maybe decreasing the amount of slow wouldn't freak people out so much.

Well look at it this way. At this time forward momentum certainly isn’t too much snare immunity, and so why shouldnt medium builds, which have less defenses, get at least the same amount? Right now medium armor on most classes is on the wrong side of good. That extra snare immunity would go a long way towards evening the discrepancy between medium and heavy. Shuffle is basically just a joke. Also almost every snare is attached to a very useful or high damage, multi purpose skill and you really don’t have to go out of your way to slot a snare or root. To name a few excellent skills: stampede, crippling grasp, jabs, caltrops, a bunch of DK abilities, shrouded daggers, various ice staff abilities, sleet storm (which can be up a lot with a good build), and anything with a snare poison attached. I’m sure I’m also forgetting some. So I don’t really think that snares and roots are in short supply. Support builds should be viable certainly. But since they have the option to basically be unkillable, then there should be some counterplay against the globe up and AOE damage playstyle. And I disagree that support build should be viable on its on. We’re tryign to move away from the damage tank builds not towards it. But thanks to an insane amount of snares, roots and AOE damage coupled with still powerful proc sets, that type of build is still very viable.

React · November 2018

haakira wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

haakira wrote: »

Maybe they could rework one passive from Medium Armor to reduce the amount of snare you get from skills for each piece of medium armor up 50% of the skill's tooltip.

Essentially making a 50% snare only be 25%. Would definitely help a bit!

The only issue with this is that when you’re trying to maneuver away from a group you don’t need less snare, you need the snares gone immediately and you need a small but sufficent window in which you are immune. In the situations where you really need snare immunity, any significant reduction would still mean the same outcome.

I understand your point and feel the same way but this isn't really an easy thing to balance. Either you give too little snare immunity or you end up giving too much. Immunity to anything is always something hard to tweak.

When you slot a snare or choose to run snare/root focused builds, you're either losing damage, defensive skills or both. In order to so, you need to feel that it was a fair trade off to have certain skills included in your build.

Imagine yourself in the position of being a CC/Support build. You want your targets to be slowed, rooted and stunned. There have been times in the past where people would just run like sonic all the time immune to everything you threw at them. And thus, support builds were less popular cause they weren't really effective.

While it is indeed very annoying for the player getting cc'd, you can actually run a support build these days and be very successful with it and that's OK to have those builds being viable.

I'm not saying it's completely balanced as it is but maybe decreasing the amount of slow wouldn't freak people out so much.

This is false. Snares are on a massive number of skills, many of which are slotted by your standard DD build already. There are very few builds that have to sacrifice something to gain a snare or root.

Skills that snare which are run globally by non-support designated setups

All gap closers
Direct damage DK ardent flame abilities
Rending slashes
Templar ritual
Heroic slash
Time stop
Permafrost
Caltrops
Shrouded daggers
Ice reach and Ice attacks in general
snare & root poisons

Now, don't even get me started on support builds. With the state of the game in regards to red & green CP, elfborn and blessed being located in the blue tree, healing passives from race choices and heavy armor, you can become completely unkillable 1v1 and 2v1 in a setup that provides CONSTANT aoe roots, defiles, snares, healing, synergies, defensive ults, earthgore, etc. You shouldn't be able to build such an effect support build that can't be killed. If you're providing that much utility, you should be forced into light armor to get your healing & sustain passives. But instead we have these 40k health unkillable wardens and dks running skills like Ice reach, frost WoE, corrupting pollen, talons, chains, drain or snare/root poisons, impaling shards, etc whose sole purpose is to assist their groups in zerging people down.

Snare immunity in general is very strong, yes. But to say it can't be balanced is laughable; with the reduction in access to speed buffs, the current snare immunity available is not enough for stamina to function at a high level. I've played stam since launch, and even I've been favoring magicka specs this patch simply because mist form is the best immunity option and abilities like streak & shade provide more mobility than anything stamina has available to it.

ak_pvp · November 2018

"I don't like snares, let me be immune to them cause I refuse to adapt"

Yeah nah. If they balance snares so its not all or nothing that'd be great.

brandonv516 · November 2018

Liam12548 wrote: »

haakira wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

haakira wrote: »

Maybe they could rework one passive from Medium Armor to reduce the amount of snare you get from skills for each piece of medium armor up 50% of the skill's tooltip.

Essentially making a 50% snare only be 25%. Would definitely help a bit!

The only issue with this is that when you’re trying to maneuver away from a group you don’t need less snare, you need the snares gone immediately and you need a small but sufficent window in which you are immune. In the situations where you really need snare immunity, any significant reduction would still mean the same outcome.

I understand your point and feel the same way but this isn't really an easy thing to balance. Either you give too little snare immunity or you end up giving too much. Immunity to anything is always something hard to tweak.

When you slot a snare or choose to run snare/root focused builds, you're either losing damage, defensive skills or both. In order to so, you need to feel that it was a fair trade off to have certain skills included in your build.

Imagine yourself in the position of being a CC/Support build. You want your targets to be slowed, rooted and stunned. There have been times in the past where people would just run like sonic all the time immune to everything you threw at them. And thus, support builds were less popular cause they weren't really effective.

While it is indeed very annoying for the player getting cc'd, you can actually run a support build these days and be very successful with it and that's OK to have those builds being viable.

I'm not saying it's completely balanced as it is but maybe decreasing the amount of slow wouldn't freak people out so much.

This is false. Snares are on a massive number of skills, many of which are slotted by your standard DD build already. There are very few builds that have to sacrifice something to gain a snare or root.

Skills that snare which are run globally by non-support designated setups
All gap closers

Direct damage DK ardent flame abilities

Rending slashes

Templar ritual

Heroic slash

Time stop

Permafrost

Caltrops

Shrouded daggers

Ice reach and Ice attacks in general

snare & root poisons

Now, don't even get me started on support builds. With the state of the game in regards to red & green CP, elfborn and blessed being located in the blue tree, healing passives from race choices and heavy armor, you can become completely unkillable 1v1 and 2v1 in a setup that provides CONSTANT aoe roots, defiles, snares, healing, synergies, defensive ults, earthgore, etc. You shouldn't be able to build such an effect support build that can't be killed. If you're providing that much utility, you should be forced into light armor to get your healing & sustain passives. But instead we have these 40k health unkillable wardens and dks running skills like Ice reach, frost WoE, corrupting pollen, talons, chains, drain or snare/root poisons, impaling shards, etc whose sole purpose is to assist their groups in zerging people down.

Snare immunity in general is very strong, yes. But to say it can't be balanced is laughable; with the reduction in access to speed buffs, the current snare immunity available is not enough for stamina to function at a high level. I've played stam since launch, and even I've been favoring magicka specs this patch simply because mist form is the best immunity option and abilities like streak & shade provide more mobility than anything stamina has available to it.

Support has a purpose. And since it annoys you and it's apparently "unkillable" I'm guessing it's serving that purpose.

Snares should be left alone but there absolutely needs to be more access to snare removal - not just for Stamina or Magicka Vampires.

Sorcerers and Nightblades should be at the top of the list for snare removal/immunity added to class skills.

Many want a snare removal attached to Streak for Sorcerers. I wouldn't mind seeing Cloak get a similar "Streak cost treatment" but with a snare removal/immunity addition to it.

It's bad enough you fight a wing-spamming DK who denies you at ranged but you can't fight them toe-to-toe when you are locked down.

React · November 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

"I don't like snares, let me be immune to them cause I refuse to adapt"

Yeah nah. If they balance snares so its not all or nothing that'd be great.

Hey mr magdk main, welcome back to another thread on snare immunity. Since the last time we spoke on this topic, I made a magdk and played several hundred hours on it in pvp. Here's my observations.

Magdk has the best snares, the best cc, and the second best aoe root next to impaling shards.

Mist form is by far the best snare immunity in comparison to forward and shuffle, and magdk utilizes it better than any other mag class.

1v1, magdk trumps almost anything. They also have access to the ONLY class specific snare immunity which also conveniently hard counters two classes.

The most difficult spec to fight by far is a heavy armor, FM stamplar (probably the most snare-immune stam spec currently).

I have a feeling your frequent protests of ANY buff to snare immunity are coming from a strong bias.

Crixus8000 · November 2018

Vapirko wrote: »

haakira wrote: »

Maybe they could rework one passive from Medium Armor to reduce the amount of snare you get from skills for each piece of medium armor up 50% of the skill's tooltip.

Essentially making a 50% snare only be 25%. Would definitely help a bit!

The only issue with this is that when you’re trying to maneuver away from a group you don’t need less snare, you need the snares gone immediately and you need a small but sufficent window in which you are immune. In the situations where you really need snare immunity, any significant reduction would still mean the same outcome.

That's exactly what I always say.

If I'm snared and being chased by a group then no reduction will save me, I either remove it or die. I get snared every 4 seconds (usually less due to the bug, or poisons ebing op and ignoring immunity) having to cast forward over and over, wasting escape time and stamina when they are snaring me for free, it's unbalanced.

Joy_Division · November 2018

Do snares overwrite or stack?

ak_pvp · November 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Do snares overwrite or stack?

Overwrite.