Why has betrayal become a constant trope in ESO ?

FrancisCrawford · November 2018

Rain_Greyraven wrote: »

Okay slight rant incoming.....

ZoS has two speeds

Betrayal and Injustice

And it's up to the Social Justice Super friends to save the day.

I wish the writers would go back and read (Re-read?) authors like Glenn Cook, Roger Zelanzny , or Meredith Ann Pierce.

They handle the human condition in fantastical settings better than anyone, there may only be seven stories, but stapling on what amounts to propaganda at worst or myopic Socio-philosophy at best makes for bland story telling.

We started this journey with a demon stealing souls to devour a world, which could have lead to a Martinesque enemy of my enemy game of compromises, which could have actually told the betrayal and injustice stories only without beating us upside the head with a +10 shillelagh of virtue signaling (we get it guys orange man bad) as we did in Summerset.

I hope it changes, but I don't look for it any time soon, because we have a lot of folks in these positions desperately trying to convince themselves that they didn't sell out and what they are doing is making a difference.....Whatever that means.

I'm not sure you're well-advised to choose Zelazny as an example of somebody who stayed away from betrayal stories. The Amber series was rife with betrayal from beginning to end. Lord of Light was about revolution and sedition, so it's not much of a stretch to think of that as betrayal as well. There wasn't a lot of trust in This Immortal. The novella that first made him famous is A Rose For Ecclesiastes.

I.e., Zelazny's best and most famous work had a whole lot of betrayal in it.

Now, you're right that on the whole ESO is, for a purveyor of medieval fantasy, very pro-social-justice. The evil politician in Clockwork City was gratuitously modeled on Donald Trump. (I found that wonderful, actually.) Racism and slavery are portrayed as bad things. Feminism is strong. On the other hand, we DO have a lot of monarchies and similar kinds of autocracy or oligarchy. People ARE defined in no small part by their races. Right depends very strongly on might. So the world of ESO isn't exactly a liberal paradise.

Rain_Greyraven · November 2018

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

not sure you're well-advised to choose Zelazny as an example of somebody who stayed away from betrayal stories. The Amber series was rife with betrayal from beginning to end. Lord of Light was about revolution and sedition, so it's not much of a stretch to think of that as betrayal as well. There wasn't a lot of trust in This Immortal. The novella that first made him famous is A Rose For Ecclesiastes.

I.e., Zelazny's best and most famous work had a whole lot of betrayal in it.

The Amber series is a miniscule part of Zelanzny's work, and while it was basically Hamlet.....it does not represent the Author well as it was created to please his then publisher who wanted a more secular story. It hit gold and he cranked out more to finance other works.

As for Lord Of light......that was more a betrayal of a state than a personal one...and again not representative of works like Last Defender of Camelot, for a breath I Tarry, the Devilish series etc etc

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Now, you're right that on the whole ESO is, for a purveyor of medieval fantasy, very pro-social-justice. The evil politician in Clockwork City was gratuitously modeled on Donald Trump. (I found that wonderful, actually.) Racism and slavery are portrayed as bad things. Feminism is strong. .

Yeah....and it's boring, trite and pedantic. It's like the kid who gets his ear pierced to be different...just like the 5 million other "Diffrent kids"

And my opinions has nothing to do with liberalism and everything to do with boring bandwagon "important message" writing.

Will it stop? No because the writers are true believers,in their echo chambers which in this day and age means the same thing as hacks.

Long story short, there are a lot of different stories the devs could tell, because every other dev is currently part of "the resistance" customers might actually appreciate something other than

Orange man bad

FrancisCrawford · November 2018

Rain_Greyraven wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

not sure you're well-advised to choose Zelazny as an example of somebody who stayed away from betrayal stories. The Amber series was rife with betrayal from beginning to end. Lord of Light was about revolution and sedition, so it's not much of a stretch to think of that as betrayal as well. There wasn't a lot of trust in This Immortal. The novella that first made him famous is A Rose For Ecclesiastes.

I.e., Zelazny's best and most famous work had a whole lot of betrayal in it.

The Amber series is a miniscule part of Zelanzny's work, and while it was basically Hamlet.....it does not represent the Author well as it was created to please his then publisher who wanted a more secular story. It hit gold and he cranked out more to finance other works.

As for Lord Of light......that was more a betrayal of a state than a personal one...and again not representative of works like Last Defender of Camelot, for a breath I Tarry, the Devilish series etc etc

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Now, you're right that on the whole ESO is, for a purveyor of medieval fantasy, very pro-social-justice. The evil politician in Clockwork City was gratuitously modeled on Donald Trump. (I found that wonderful, actually.) Racism and slavery are portrayed as bad things. Feminism is strong. .

Yeah....and it's boring, trite and pedantic. It's like the kid who gets his ear pierced to be different...just like the 5 million other "Diffrent kids"

And my opinions has nothing to do with liberalism and everything to do with boring bandwagon "important message" writing.

Will it stop? No because the writers are true believers,in their echo chambers which in this day and age means the same thing as hacks.

Long story short, there are a lot of different stories the devs could tell, because every other dev is currently part of "the resistance" customers might actually appreciate something other than

Orange man bad

You are the first person I'm aware of who would call the Dilvish works as being among Zelazny's best. And I don't see his work being rooted in religion so much as in legend. E.g., this Immortal didn't focus on the Greek GODS, and most of his religion-based works emphasized pantheons more than they did theology. And of course he also had works based on the Mafia, on Hell's Angels, on Jack the Ripper or, as you point out, on Arthurian legend. And by the way, I see the Dilvish books as strongly based on Lovecraft, although I just checked Wikipedia and see there may be homages to a couple of other authors' works as well, as well as some D&D tropes I had completely forgotten.

Yes, some would say his very best works were Lord of LIght and A Rose For Ecclesiastes, exactly because of how they truly wove in philosophical/religious themes. But those were the exception for him, not the rule.

TheShadowScout · November 2018

TheAstaroath wrote: »

1) Main Quest: Betrayal ! Mannimarco betrays Emperor Varen Aquilarios revealing himself to be the villain that works for Molag Bal and wants the Amulet of Kings for his nefarious purposes.

Yeah, Mannimarco had the "brtrayer" archetype in the backstory of the whole thing, and tries to betray molag bal too in the course of the quest. But what would you expect from an albino necromancer, I mean... "the cliché is strong with this one!"

TheAstaroath wrote: »

2) Morrowind: Betrayal ! While helping the Dark Elf Tribunal God Vivec, Vivec's faithful servant Arch-Canon Tarvus Indoril is revealed to be Barbas...

...and gets a really nice and surprising "Bam! Traitor!" scene. Its well done, and I love how you can see the hints of barbas lurking in the background here and there when you play it the second time...

TheAstaroath wrote: »

3) Summerset: Betrayal ! Psijic Mage Valsirenn's ex-husband Leythen...

...is the wrong betrayal. That one is less of a betrayal as a defection... the -real- betrayal in that story would be nocturnal stabbing her partners in the back and all... which is to be expected, daedric princes and all that.

TheAstaroath wrote: »

4) Orsinium: Betrayal ! Orsimer King Kurog and his mother, Forge-Mother Alga, that were originally allies and patrons of the player, are revealed to be the masterminds behind the Vosh-Rakh cult incursion.

True enough, and a really nice touch of "breton level political intrigue" you would not expect from orcs, yes?

TheAstaroath wrote: »

5) Dark Brotherhood: Betrayal ! Order of the Hour's champion, the Black Dragon, is revealed to be the Dark Brotherhood's previous Silencer, Lyra Viria, that had gone missing after performing a Sanctuary Purification.

...but since this is backstory only, and its less of a "betrayal" and more of a "defection", well...

TheAstaroath wrote: »

6) Thieves Guild: Betrayal ! The main villain, Merchant-Lord Cosh, is revealed to be the Thieves Guild previous guildmaster, Nicolas that has performed a heist and coup against his guildmates.

And again, backstory only, tho a nice twist as the story unfolds. Still, obviously the honor among thieves is lacking, yes?

TheAstaroath wrote: »

7) Clockwork City: Betrayal ! The Clockwork God of the Dark Elf Tribunal, Sotha Sil, has been abducted and replaced by a Shadow clone of himself created by the Daedric Prince of Shadows, Nocturnal.

...and what would that have to do with "betrayal"??? Chancellor Gascone on the other hand...

TheAstaroath wrote: »

8) Murkmire: Betrayal ! Benefactor of Cyrodillic Collections, Argonian scholar Kassandra, betrays player and Co. to claim the Staff of Hist and uncover the location of a powerful artifact.

Yeah, and that one was pretty obvious. So obvious that I had hoped it would at least not be her, but her evil sister or something to throw a curve ball for a change...

Also, we had semi-betrayals in many alliance story quests, from Vox turning against the tribunal to dominion skinstealers impersonating pact officers, from the whole veiled alliance stories to the hound turning against bosmer customs, from cultists inciting traitors in stormhaven to vampire court intrigue to helpful sage apprentice turned necromancer in the alik'r...

TheAstaroath wrote: »

Getting betrayed in eight major content updates in a row has already become way too predictable and way too much.

Well, they do want to add "plot twist" setups, and they may have overused the "betrayed by supposed allies" thing a tad. Though at least they did use it in different ways, sometimes your supposed ally stabs you in the back, sometimes you find betrayal in the backstory you uncover, sometimes your enemies stab each other in the back so you can defeat them in detail, or even bargain with some wanting revenge, etc.

But I am really hoping they will add more different plot twists in the future, for increased varietee. Or make it -look- like there is another betrayal going on, to get people going "Ah, I know this one..." then -bam- have it be something else entirely!

...and I am still waiting for the questline involving player character betrayal... like I keep saying, there ought to be an DLC with an "cloak and dagger" (Well, maybe "hood and dagger" for ESO) theme, and a "faction loyalty called in question" storyline where everyone thinks the player character is the traitor, and you get to make a -big- choice for your character in the first half of the story - will you stay loyal and find out who framed you, or go and defect to a different alliance!
With the rest of the DLC going different ways depending on what you choose - either you hunt after the true culprit, find the evidence you need to restore your good name, dodge agents sent to bring you in for treason and emerge victorious... or... you dodge the agents sent to bring you in for treason while making contact with one of the other alliances, preparing your escape and grabbing some juicy secrets on your way out...
Such a story could take a character all over their original alliance, and other places as well, possibly centering on some neutral city-state or something where spies from all factions meet to spy hard (think like cold war era vienna...); reusing old maps from bygone questings with new mobs, and giving out nifty titles depending on your characters fate... like "[original faction] Loyalist" or "[original faction] Defector"...

ESO_Nightingale · November 2018

I applied for writer designer at zos. About 12 days ago i got a mail saying that the position has been filled. Hopefully that writer designer hates betrayal.

Sylvermynx · November 2018

@TheShadowScout: I really love your in-depth posts. No I am not being facetious.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I applied for writer designer at zos. About 12 days ago i got a mail saying that the position has been filled. Hopefully that writer designer hates betrayal.

I'm sorry to hear that you missed out. I hope you'll get another chance.

Rain_Greyraven · November 2018

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I applied for writer designer at zos. About 12 days ago i got a mail saying that the position has been filled. Hopefully that writer designer hates betrayal.

I'm truly sorry to hear that, but I will let you in on a little known fact about game development. Often times it isn't the quality of the material that you produce.

More often than not they are looking for someone that shares their worldview, and Authoritative base.

This is especially true in Pen and Paper developers and Video game developers. I know several amazing writers who can only self publish because they refuse to compromise their convictions.

Also whoever they hired I would look for more of the same.

ESO_Nightingale · November 2018

Sylvermynx wrote: »

@TheShadowScout: I really love your in-depth posts. No I am not being facetious.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I applied for writer designer at zos. About 12 days ago i got a mail saying that the position has been filled. Hopefully that writer designer hates betrayal.

I'm sorry to hear that you missed out. I hope you'll get another chance.

I am 17 and in another country (Australia). I did it for maybe... advice? or something? It wasn't overly serious. Don't worry!

Bam_Bam · November 2018

Urvoth wrote: »

Zos should turn it around next dlc and let the player betray whatever group they are working with.

Just log onto Cyrodiil, its already a thing.

Rain_Greyraven · November 2018

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Rain_Greyraven wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

not sure you're well-advised to choose Zelazny as an example of somebody who stayed away from betrayal stories. The Amber series was rife with betrayal from beginning to end. Lord of Light was about revolution and sedition, so it's not much of a stretch to think of that as betrayal as well. There wasn't a lot of trust in This Immortal. The novella that first made him famous is A Rose For Ecclesiastes.

I.e., Zelazny's best and most famous work had a whole lot of betrayal in it.

The Amber series is a miniscule part of Zelanzny's work, and while it was basically Hamlet.....it does not represent the Author well as it was created to please his then publisher who wanted a more secular story. It hit gold and he cranked out more to finance other works.

As for Lord Of light......that was more a betrayal of a state than a personal one...and again not representative of works like Last Defender of Camelot, for a breath I Tarry, the Devilish series etc etc

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Now, you're right that on the whole ESO is, for a purveyor of medieval fantasy, very pro-social-justice. The evil politician in Clockwork City was gratuitously modeled on Donald Trump. (I found that wonderful, actually.) Racism and slavery are portrayed as bad things. Feminism is strong. .

Yeah....and it's boring, trite and pedantic. It's like the kid who gets his ear pierced to be different...just like the 5 million other "Diffrent kids"

And my opinions has nothing to do with liberalism and everything to do with boring bandwagon "important message" writing.

Will it stop? No because the writers are true believers,in their echo chambers which in this day and age means the same thing as hacks.

Long story short, there are a lot of different stories the devs could tell, because every other dev is currently part of "the resistance" customers might actually appreciate something other than

Orange man bad

You are the first person I'm aware of who would call the Dilvish works as being among Zelazny's best. And I don't see his work being rooted in religion so much as in legend. E.g., this Immortal didn't focus on the Greek GODS, and most of his religion-based works emphasized pantheons more than they did theology. And of course he also had works based on the Mafia, on Hell's Angels, on Jack the Ripper or, as you point out, on Arthurian legend. And by the way, I see the Dilvish books as strongly based on Lovecraft, although I just checked Wikipedia and see there may be homages to a couple of other authors' works as well, as well as some D&D tropes I had completely forgotten.

Yes, some would say his very best works were Lord of LIght and A Rose For Ecclesiastes, exactly because of how they truly wove in philosophical/religious themes. But those were the exception for him, not the rule.

Maybe it's personal preference I don't, know it is nice to see someone who appreciates Zelanzy as much as I do even though we disagree on his etymology and thought process.

Sylvermynx · November 2018

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

@TheShadowScout: I really love your in-depth posts. No I am not being facetious.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I applied for writer designer at zos. About 12 days ago i got a mail saying that the position has been filled. Hopefully that writer designer hates betrayal.

I'm sorry to hear that you missed out. I hope you'll get another chance.

I am 17 and in another country (Australia). I did it for maybe... advice? or something? It wasn't overly serious. Don't worry!

The unfortunate thing is that you probably didn't get any useful feedback. Keep writing, keep applying, and if you aren't publishing, do it!

Rain_Greyraven wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I applied for writer designer at zos. About 12 days ago i got a mail saying that the position has been filled. Hopefully that writer designer hates betrayal.

I'm truly sorry to hear that, but I will let you in on a little known fact about game development. Often times it isn't the quality of the material that you produce.

More often than not they are looking for someone that shares their worldview, and Authoritative base.

This is especially true in Pen and Paper developers and Video game developers. I know several amazing writers who can only self publish because they refuse to compromise their convictions.

Also whoever they hired I would look for more of the same.

I'm someone who would only self-pub, as yeah.... I won't compromise.... Of course, I'm not writing for games, I'm writing the novels I've BEEN writing for 40 + years.

Good advice/thoughts!

ESO_Nightingale · November 2018

Rain_Greyraven wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I applied for writer designer at zos. About 12 days ago i got a mail saying that the position has been filled. Hopefully that writer designer hates betrayal.

I'm truly sorry to hear that, but I will let you in on a little known fact about game development. Often times it isn't the quality of the material that you produce.

More often than not they are looking for someone that shares their worldview, and Authoritative base.

This is especially true in Pen and Paper developers and Video game developers. I know several amazing writers who can only self publish because they refuse to compromise their convictions.

Also whoever they hired I would look for more of the same.

Well outsourcing is supposed to be used to hire people with different skills and ideas to improve the company right? Business class lied to me!

MLGProPlayer · November 2018

Because it's easy to write, and it's intriguing (as long as the circumstances are different each time, which they are).

ESO_Nightingale · November 2018

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Because it's easy to write, and it's intriguing (as long as the circumstances are different each time, which they are).

Its getting boring now. Isnt there also stories in the game like this?:

Join party A to do a job and as you do the job you encounter party B who is the enemy and then they tell you "actually, party A is the real culprit and we are the good guys" and you are technically the betrayer

That right there is an example of a boring seen before story.

What about a story where both factions are good but they have some morals that are off: like maybe they have one that frees slaves and prisoners and they are brought to safe cities where they are actually mistreated. Maybe one does testing of diseases and vaccines on prisoners with the hope of saving the world or something like that. As a rough thought.
And its up to you to decide what faction you want to go with at the start rather than choosing a kill/live option for a prisoner usually at the end of the line to make the "illusion of choice" seem real. What if what you did had an impact on the npcs in the area other than "ARAAULGHA U DA HERO AUTOGRAPH PLX" id like to be insulted for my bad actions.

Claudman · November 2018

It's not just a trope in ESO...
It's a trope in ALL TES games. Morrowind, Oblivion and even in Skyrim...I get tired of the damn trope. I've been tired of the trope since Oblivion. It's such a boring plot twist and often makes me lose all interest in the character because TES doesn't handle backstabs well. They go from likeable to evil caricature most of the time.

I love the lore and such, but that writing trope is quite bad.

Pheefs · November 2018

Claudman · November 2018

Pheefs wrote: »

It's a reoccurring theme, thus it's a trope for specifically TES. It's not a cliche because they aren't making it obvious or using "muhahaha I'm evil" characters nor is it a cliche because the villains want to eat babies or something. Cliche would be the story of Skyrim... "I am teh chosen wan".

Cliches and tropes aren't bad...Doing nothing original with them is.

Loves_guars · November 2018

I thought that was Bioware TM. Every time I start a story I'm thinking, who is going to be the traitor?

TheShadowScout · November 2018

Loves_guars wrote: »

I thought that was Bioware TM. Every time I start a story I'm thinking, who is going to be the traitor?

...and that is something they ought to play with.

Have stories where it looks like there is a traitor, but in the end it was just sufficiently advanced spying magic.
Have stories where the one who seems to maybe be destined for that role is innocent and soneone else is guilty.
Have stories where the "traitor" ends up being a double agent and loyal after all, and the "betrayal" a sting operation...
Have stories where the -player- gets a chance to be the big bad traitor, or not and stay loyal despite all odds, as they choose.

And of course have stories where there is no betrayal at all, and the big plot twist that keeps things interesting comes from an entirely different direction!

Sylvermynx · November 2018

Actually.... betrayal is a common human trope, beginning with the bible. I really believe that betrayal is a human genetic imperative.

So..... yeah. Of the seven possible plots - most games key on betrayal.

temjiu · November 2018

I don't think the betrayal concept is singularly replayed in the same form in every expansion. a few had betrayal in the backstory, like mannimarco, but by the time we got there, he was simply the main baddie.

A few have smaller betrayals, but not the main plot. like CWC.

A few have really good betrayals that surprise, like Orsinium.

A few SHOULD have betrayals, like Dark brotherhood. That's almost a duh.

it is quite common in game, but if you look at human behavior, it's pretty rife with it in reality too.

FrancisCrawford · November 2018

Rain_Greyraven wrote: »

it is nice to see someone who appreciates Zelanzy as much as I do even though we disagree

Likewise!