Why has betrayal become a constant trope in ESO ?

TheAstaroath

*WARNING: The following contain spoilers for Murkmire and previously released content. If you have not yet played any of it, turn back now !*



1) Main Quest: Betrayal ! Mannimarco betrays Emperor Varen Aquilarios revealing himself to be the villain that works for Molag Bal and wants the Amulet of Kings for his nefarious purposes.
2) Morrowind: Betrayal ! While helping the Dark Elf Tribunal God Vivec, Vivec's faithful servant Arch-Canon Tarvus Indoril is revealed to be Barbas, the Hound of Daedric Prince Clavicus Vile, that has murdered the real Tarvus and polymorphed as him to take his place.
3) Summerset: Betrayal ! Psijic Mage Valsirenn's ex-husband Leythen, who was a Psijic Mage himself in the past, has betrayed both his wife and Order to become a Daedra Cult worshipper.
4) Orsinium: Betrayal ! Orsimer King Kurog and his mother, Forge-Mother Alga, that were originally allies and patrons of the player, are revealed to be the masterminds behind the Vosh-Rakh cult incursion.
5) Dark Brotherhood: Betrayal ! Order of the Hour's champion, the Black Dragon, is revealed to be the Dark Brotherhood's previous Silencer, Lyra Viria, that had gone missing after performing a Sanctuary Purification.
6) Thieves Guild: Betrayal ! The main villain, Merchant-Lord Cosh, is revealed to be the Thieves Guild previous guildmaster, Nicolas that has performed a heist and coup against his guildmates.
7) Clockwork City: Betrayal ! The Clockwork God of the Dark Elf Tribunal, Sotha Sil, has been abducted and replaced by a Shadow clone of himself created by the Daedric Prince of Shadows, Nocturnal.
8) Murkmire: Betrayal ! Benefactor of Cyrodillic Collections, Argonian scholar Kassandra, betrays player and Co. to claim the Staff of Hist and uncover the location of a powerful artifact.

Betrayal has become such a common trope in ESO that by the time just before I ended Murkmire's storyline earlier today, I already knew that scaleless albino Imperial-bred Kassandra and her foul-tempered bodyguard would betray me before it even happened.
Getting betrayed in eight major content updates in a row has already become way too predictable and way too much. Whatever has become of originality ?

Viserys_Varanis

Only honourless Lannister and Frey Kingslayers around in Tamriel nowadays.

SHADOW2KK

Betrayal gives drama

Girl_Number8

Because it is what they do to their loyal player-base on a regular basis....

spartaxoxo

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Betrayal gives drama

It does when it isn't overused.

Another overused thing is the sudden death of an ally, sometimes out of the blue for seemingly no discernible reason like in that wolf dungeon.

It doesn't even register to me when it happens anymore.

Aliyavana

cuz why not. I wouldn't call the cwc a betrayal trope in the way your using it, just with one of his followers

ak_pvp

Agreed. Lazy writing. The "oh look, your evil now?" trope is littered all over ESO. Look at the dungeons. Tervur, bad. Spider cult, bad. Rillis guardians, end up evil.

If its done decently, sure. Like the campaign one was a little different since you weren't getting *** over, and the clockwork one being more so a stand in. But yeah, overused cheap drama trope.

NupidStoob

Because ESO is full of lazy writing. Not just with the betrayal theme.

Two of my personal pet peeves:

Every character needs to be "special" and in order to achieve that you come across quite many forced voice lines. Characters can be interesting without being weirdos or against a stereotype. For the Murkmire preparation dailies for example pretty much every person in the different quests are just forcefully quirky.

The forceful choices in so many quests where it makes no sense at all that you are the one making that choice. You can tell a father who you just met in Audion to kill his own son as a traitor. Who are we as player to make such a massive life changing choice for someone we just met? Apart from that these choices are pretty much without consequences for the further stories and are just there to give us an illusion of choice. Oh yeah also questlines that give you two friends or tell you stories about two people you meet during it will most likely end up with you having to make a choice between the two. Murkmire was just the latest installment of many of these quests.

Gatviper

They're running out of design ideas for the game... oh wait, was there even much to begin with? ESO is certainly not comparable to other games I've known in things of story content, at least before the developers begin to run out of interesting ideas. It's inevitable, happens with every game.
But ESO has always been on the lighter side. It's still fun, the more mindless fun. Jump'n'Run, hop'n'chop, read a few lines, repeat from start.

Integral1900

Human nature, I mean of all the people who make a mark in history you will have a hell of a time finding one that on some level or from some view point isn’t a two faced amoral treacherous b*****d. Lol, that degree in history finaly came in handy

gepe87

About plot twists, only Orsinium and Thieves Guild storylines were shocking.

Tommy_The_Gun

Betrayal = easiest to design plot twist... just saying.

maboleth

Such exaggerated post. Betrayal is the integral part of the ES game franchise. Sort of like the "iconic" game starting position - as a prisoner.

Minyassa

Because Molag Bal. He's not just one storyline, he's THE storyline. They have not done a good job of making that seem epically central enough, with all these other storylines after it and people ignoring it half the time, but every betrayal elsewhere is BECAUSE of Molag Bal. His incursion into Tamriel does have a major effect after all, and he calls to betrayal as it calls to him. Just think of it as a corruption he has flooded into the world with his anchors all over the place. Anyone who might've ever entertained even the slightest traitorous thought is going to be triggered into acting on it because of his influence.

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Minyassa wrote: »

Because Molag Bal. He's not just one storyline, he's THE storyline. They have not done a good job of making that seem epically central enough, with all these other storylines after it and people ignoring it half the time, but every betrayal elsewhere is BECAUSE of Molag Bal. His incursion into Tamriel does have a major effect after all, and he calls to betrayal as it calls to him. Just think of it as a corruption he has flooded into the world with his anchors all over the place. Anyone who might've ever entertained even the slightest traitorous thought is going to be triggered into acting on it because of his influence.

I just want one game or storyline where we can side with him, screw saving the world again.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

Because it is what they do to their loyal player-base on a regular basis....

Buuuurn! #ZoSburn

Konstant_Tel_Necris

Because of Lorkhan betrayal of Aedra that's recurrent theme in TES setting, because all events is just reflections of conflict of higher powers of Anu and Padomay.

Urvoth

Zos should turn it around next dlc and let the player betray whatever group they are working with.

Elsonso

When I started this thread, I thought it was going to be about the over use of a character that actively works for, or against, the player and then changes sides. An ongoing recurring part of the story that has a change of loyalties, or a revelation of true loyalties part of the way through. Mannimarco is more of a back story betrayal, but Tharn is more what I am talking about. Most recently, that would be in Murkmire.

As I read through the list, I realized that it was reaching for a point that was not coming naturally. Betrayal happens every where, in both stories and real life. They can be generally unremarkable, and if the list drops the bar that low, the list is pointless. The stories involve people. Betrayal is a very common thing that happens with people. The fact that betrayal happens in stories is almost expected. It is human nature. In this case, also mer nature.

For it to be worth noting, it has to stand out. It is not enough to just say that it happened. Summerset, Morrowind, Orsinium, and Murkmire belong in a list since all of them involved a more direct betrayal that stands out.

Clockwork City really does not belong in the list. Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild include elements of betrayal, but one has to ask whether that would be something that is expected for the nature of the people involved. The adage that there is no honor among thieves is pretty much the definition of betrayal.

Does it really matter, and are they using it too much? Other than predictability, I would say that they are probably not using it any more frequently than any other story writers. I think half of the comic book stories that have been written depend on it. There is no soap opera anywhere that has not built several episodes on it. Block buster movies use it all the time.

Can they not build the next main quest around it? That might be a good idea, given Murkmire just used it.

I propose for the upcoming Chapter that ZOS get away from this entirely. Set the quest in Elsweyr and have the main quest absolutely nothing more that going around the zone picking up lost kittens, who innocently wandered off, and then return them to mommy Khajiit. No antagonist. No combat required. Make it repeatable. Pesky kittens.

ChunkyCat

Quest writer was dumped by his significant other.

Shawn_PT

It's funny you mention this. Because it's true. And I guess even subconsciously we as players have learned that when there's new content coming, someone's gonna stab us or the 'good' NPCs in the back.

I have not stepped foot in Murkmire yet. But I was honestly surprised when neither Jee Lar nor his stuffy nosed partner whose name I forget stole the golden skull. I mean, it's what ZoS has trained to expect, sort of.

Kadoin

Maybe the writer watches too many Korean dramas?

umagon

TheAstaroath wrote: »

*WARNING: The following contain spoilers for Murkmire and previously released content. If you have not yet played any of it, turn back now !*



1) Main Quest: Betrayal ! Mannimarco betrays Emperor Varen Aquilarios revealing himself to be the villain that works for Molag Bal and wants the Amulet of Kings for his nefarious purposes.
2) Morrowind: Betrayal ! While helping the Dark Elf Tribunal God Vivec, Vivec's faithful servant Arch-Canon Tarvus Indoril is revealed to be Barbas, the Hound of Daedric Prince Clavicus Vile, that has murdered the real Tarvus and polymorphed as him to take his place.
3) Summerset: Betrayal ! Psijic Mage Valsirenn's ex-husband Leythen, who was a Psijic Mage himself in the past, has betrayed both his wife and Order to become a Daedra Cult worshipper.
4) Orsinium: Betrayal ! Orsimer King Kurog and his mother, Forge-Mother Alga, that were originally allies and patrons of the player, are revealed to be the masterminds behind the Vosh-Rakh cult incursion.
5) Dark Brotherhood: Betrayal ! Order of the Hour's champion, the Black Dragon, is revealed to be the Dark Brotherhood's previous Silencer, Lyra Viria, that had gone missing after performing a Sanctuary Purification.
6) Thieves Guild: Betrayal ! The main villain, Merchant-Lord Cosh, is revealed to be the Thieves Guild previous guildmaster, Nicolas that has performed a heist and coup against his guildmates.
7) Clockwork City: Betrayal ! The Clockwork God of the Dark Elf Tribunal, Sotha Sil, has been abducted and replaced by a Shadow clone of himself created by the Daedric Prince of Shadows, Nocturnal.
8) Murkmire: Betrayal ! Benefactor of Cyrodillic Collections, Argonian scholar Kassandra, betrays player and Co. to claim the Staff of Hist and uncover the location of a powerful artifact.

Betrayal has become such a common trope in ESO that by the time just before I ended Murkmire's storyline earlier today, I already knew that scaleless albino Imperial-bred Kassandra and her foul-tempered bodyguard would betray me before it even happened.
Getting betrayed in eight major content updates in a row has already become way too predictable and way too much. Whatever has become of originality ?

Prelude, protasis, epitasis, catastasis, catastrophe; this is how most of if not all of the elder scroll games are written. Betrayal is kind of an easy mode plot twist to be used in the catastrophe phase. People can relate to betrayal and with so much money invested in the production of the game they want a narrative formula that works more than one that hasn’t been used before and is original.

Shantu

It doesn't take long to realize much of this game is just re-skinned ideas. It's a cookie-cutter approach to productivity that happens when the creative talent pool gets shallow. As awesome as something might be, there's only so many ways you can dress it up and call it new.

Itacira

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

Because it is what they do to their loyal player-base on a regular basis....

i was coming here to write just that x)

majulook

Betrayal is a very common part of life, and one most people can relate to.

Friends are people you know that have not stabbed you in the back yet.

Elsonso

majulook wrote: »

Betrayal is a very common part of life, and one most people can relate to.

Friends are people you know thatthink have not stabbed you in the back yet.

Fixed it

But yes, it is very common and very familiar. Perhaps not as sad as the above, but definitely something people relate to.

FrancisCrawford

It's been that way through ESO, and it was that way throughout the previous Elder Scrolls game I played, namely Morrowind.

In your ESO round-up you neglected to mention, among others, the Aldmeri Dominion main quest line, the Stormhaven part of the DC quest line, the backstory (and to some extent current story) of the Rivenspire story line, the Alik'r Desert story line, the Fighter's Guild story line, the backstory to the Stros M'Kai story line, the fact that the EP is in a fraternal civil war, the Deshaan story line, the Tribunal/Nerevar backstory, etc., etc. etc.

And the arch-villain is known as the "God of Schemes".

Acrolas

It's hard to develop rising action without conflict, and one of the more reliable ways to create conflict is a difference of interests.

I can't really fault the writers on this, though. NPCs with recorded lines don't allow for a subtlety and a wide range of character flaws that other performance arts do. So instead a whisper, some points have to be shouted so that they aren't overlooked or misinterpreted.

Minyassa wrote: »

Because Molag Bal. He's not just one storyline, he's THE storyline. They have not done a good job of making that seem epically central enough, with all these other storylines after it and people ignoring it half the time, but every betrayal elsewhere is BECAUSE of Molag Bal

But I think an excellent counter-point was made during the Stirk summit. While Bal's Planemeld attempt allowed various cultists and separatists the opportunity to advance their causes in his name, a lot of the conflicts in the game are caused by nothing more than the hubris of mortals. It's the unwillingness to unite Tamriel that makes each alliance weak.

Rain_Greyraven

Okay slight rant incoming.....

ZoS has two speeds

Betrayal and Injustice

And it's up to the Social Justice Super friends to save the day.

I wish the writers would go back and read (Re-read?) authors like Glenn Cook, Roger Zelanzny , or Meredith Ann Pierce.

They handle the human condition in fantastical settings better than anyone, there may only be seven stories, but stapling on what amounts to propaganda at worst or myopic Socio-philosophy at best makes for bland story telling.

We started this journey with a demon stealing souls to devour a world, which could have lead to a Martinesque enemy of my enemy game of compromises, which could have actually told the betrayal and injustice stories only without beating us upside the head with a +10 shillelagh of virtue signaling (we get it guys orange man bad) as we did in Summerset.


I hope it changes, but I don't look for it any time soon, because we have a lot of folks in these positions desperately trying to convince themselves that they didn't sell out and what they are doing is making a difference.....Whatever that means.

Silver_Strider

A few things.
1) Mannimarco has always been a prick. You're better off trusting a rattlesnake not to bite you than you are trusting Mannimarco. To not expect betrayal would be idiocy.

2) Barbas stated that Arch-Canon Travus died in his sleep and all he did was dawn the guise to help further Clavius' plan quicker. Still though, it was a decent story overall, and the betrayal was nicely set up that I can't really fault its use here.

3) To call this a betrayal is a stretch since we never really knew anything about Leythan prior to this quest and while he did betray the Psijic Order, his association to Mephala was ultimately in our favor as both he and Mephala did end up helping us to stop Nocturnal that I can't really say I mind it at all. It gave him some depth as a character since we got to see why he did what he did when in most cases, it's just "Oh I'm the bad guy, now we must fight to the death with 0 character development." It was a good thing is what I'm trying to say.

4) This was a betrayal done right. It was perfect in its execution that I don't find any real fault to it at all. It made Orsinium all the more memorable.

5) The Dark Brotherhood has a nasty habit of getting themselves killed off in some way, shape or form. There has been a traitor in every single Dark Brotherhood quest line to date (Mathieu Bellamont killed the DB in Oblivion thru manipulation of his status as a Speaker, Astrid got almost everyone in her sanctuary killed by betraying you in Skyrim, Lyria turned traitor after having to purify her Sanctuary in ESO). It's pretty much just a trope of the organization at this point and I fully expect the DB in TES 6 will fare a similar fate.

6) No argument here.

7) Same as Leythan. We've never been introduced to Sotha Sil and everything leading to the reveal heavy hinted that it was an imposter. Deception =/= Betrayal, and despite being interchangeable at times, this isn't really one of those times.

8) No argument here. It was actually one of the weakest parts of the story because it was so painfully obvious that it was going to occur.