FAKE TANKS in dungeon finder

Gargath · October 2018

These threads always end up with self-admiration of people bragging about how much dps they pull in pugs.

Agenericname · October 2018

LegendaryArcher wrote: »

@Juju_beans and how exactly does kicking matter? The only people being punished are the DDs and the healer. If you kick the fake tank, he just instantly queues again and gets ruins a new party, since the game automatically removes your timeout penalty when you get kicked. But the people that queued fairly, those DDs that waited for 1h in group finder, they have to either 3-man it without the tank or wait another 1h for a new (possibly fake) tank.

I've seen fake tanks kicked quite a bit. There is usually a wait when one is removed, but it hasnt been terribly long. It recently happened in MoS. The healer questioned the 17k health magicka templar queued as a tank. They admitted that they did so because of the queue time. Still, we attempted the boss anyway, after which a vote to kick was initiated. Within 3 minutes we had a new tank. It happened again in ICP and we had a new tank within 5 minutes. In WGT we waited less than 5 minutes. I haven't been seeing an hour wait as a trend, it's been relatively quick.

I've also seen conflicting information on the penalty. I've personally received a penalty greater than 15 minutes (26 minutes iirc) for leaving a dungeon and havent received a penalty at all for being kicked once at the beginning of a dungeon. Others report that they have. It would be nice if I could find an explanation of the system, but ultimately it doesnt matter. They're not in my group any longer.

I agree with those that have said it's a cultural or community issue. Like most cultural changes they happen over time. If they were widely shunned there would be far fewer of them. With few exceptions most people do not want to be kicked by their peers.

DaveMoeDee · October 2018

Agenericname wrote: »

LegendaryArcher wrote: »

@Juju_beans and how exactly does kicking matter? The only people being punished are the DDs and the healer. If you kick the fake tank, he just instantly queues again and gets ruins a new party, since the game automatically removes your timeout penalty when you get kicked. But the people that queued fairly, those DDs that waited for 1h in group finder, they have to either 3-man it without the tank or wait another 1h for a new (possibly fake) tank.

I've seen fake tanks kicked quite a bit. There is usually a wait when one is removed, but it hasnt been terribly long. It recently happened in MoS. The healer questioned the 17k health magicka templar queued as a tank. They admitted that they did so because of the queue time. Still, we attempted the boss anyway, after which a vote to kick was initiated. Within 3 minutes we had a new tank. It happened again in ICP and we had a new tank within 5 minutes. In WGT we waited less than 5 minutes. I haven't been seeing an hour wait as a trend, it's been relatively quick.

I've also seen conflicting information on the penalty. I've personally received a penalty greater than 15 minutes (26 minutes iirc) for leaving a dungeon and havent received a penalty at all for being kicked once at the beginning of a dungeon. Others report that they have. It would be nice if I could find an explanation of the system, but ultimately it doesnt matter. They're not in my group any longer.

I agree with those that have said it's a cultural or community issue. Like most cultural changes they happen over time. If they were widely shunned there would be far fewer of them. With few exceptions most people do not want to be kicked by their peers.

I can't imagine not kicking them. 2 DDs that endured the queue time should have no tolerance for the other DD unless the fake tank is so good that everything melts.

I would expect that the group that kicks the tank is also near the front of the queue for a new tank.

DaveMoeDee · October 2018

It would be nice if matchmaking could include long blacklists for each player so they could never again be group with certain players. I am wary of adding any kind of punishments for people on a log of blacklists, but another feature could be lower priority queuing for a few days for people with a lot of appearances on blacklists (along with a notification of what happened).

I don't see this happening because it would complicate matchmaking.

fossoyer · October 2018

Hard to be a tank,
(non dlc pledge).

Team A :
Average or high dps, nobody respect his work (packing trash), taunting boss. Most people rush and let tank behind, even if they die (even animals are smarter). They only waiting tank for final boss.

Team B :
no dps...no interest for strat, ice staff which drop my tunt

Team C :
Average Dps, they waiting for tank, pledges are little long but go smooth

Team D :
High dps, they waiting for tank, pledge is a dream.

i often met Team A.

GimpyPorcupine · October 2018

Queued random normal as a healer last night on a character halfway spec'd between heals and DPS. (Breton Templar, SPC, Rattlecage, Troll King). Got Tempest Island. The first "tank" we got was L48 spamming Acid Spray. Posted in group text "Tank what taunt are you using." which got no answer. Typed "fake tank" into group chat, initiated a vote kick, which passed. We got another tank within minutes. The second tank, although level, was very good, must have been an experienced player.

We all need to do our part to actively kick fakes, after posting in chat why they're getting kicked. If you kick them without telling them why, many are likely too dim to figure it out.

Juju_beans · October 2018

LegendaryArcher wrote: »

@Juju_beans and how exactly does kicking matter? The only people being punished are the DDs and the healer. If you kick the fake tank, he just instantly queues again and gets ruins a new party, since the game automatically removes your timeout penalty when you get kicked. But the people that queued fairly, those DDs that waited for 1h in group finder, they have to either 3-man it without the tank or wait another 1h for a new (possibly fake) tank.

By not kicking are you giving your OK to accept fake tanks.
And then people come here to complain on the forums why ZOS won't do something.
Well..YOU can do something. Kick them.

Other posters don't seem to be waiting 1 hour to get another tank if they kick.

Meld777 · October 2018

Juju_beans wrote: »

LegendaryArcher wrote: »

@Juju_beans and how exactly does kicking matter? The only people being punished are the DDs and the healer. If you kick the fake tank, he just instantly queues again and gets ruins a new party, since the game automatically removes your timeout penalty when you get kicked. But the people that queued fairly, those DDs that waited for 1h in group finder, they have to either 3-man it without the tank or wait another 1h for a new (possibly fake) tank.

By not kicking are you giving your OK to accept fake tanks.
And then people come here to complain on the forums why ZOS won't do something.
Well..YOU can do something. Kick them.

Other posters don't seem to be waiting 1 hour to get another tank if they kick.

I disagree. Kicking a fake tank doesn't teach him a lesson. It actually helps him because he can skip penalty, queue again and instantly get a group.

Of course other posters don't seem to be waiting 1 hour. Depends on when you play, and where. Xbox will have much faster queue times because it's a pain to make a custom group there, or on consoles in general. Group finder is much more popular there. On PC EU, where I'm from, waiting for 1 hour is pretty common. If your random vet ended up in a DLC and you got "fake-tanked", there is no way you will get a tank even in 2 hours, because no tank queues solo for vet DLCs in group finder, only with at least one other friend.

EvilAutoTech · October 2018

My main battle tank only tanks for pre-made groups. I only pug tank with my under level 50 tanks.

My main has not pugged since last year's dungeon event. Whether she pugs this year will depend on how the event is set up.

If she does, it will be normal only as she can carry the whole group if she has to. Everyone can just stand in the corner and watch for all I care. It will take longer, 30 to 60 minutes for most non dlc norms. Any help would make it faster, but there will be a clear if they wait long enough.

Raudgrani · November 2018

Today's morning. Spindleclutch I (veteran), activity finder.

Team consist of:
- Me as DD
- Fully leveled but really poor DD
- Decent healer (at least normally "over qualified" for this dungeon)
- "Tank".

Now to the "tank". German speaker, didn't even answer. "Rotation" consisting of tossing Crystal Blast until magicka was depleted, then spam Leathal Arrow until stamina was depleted. Rinse and repeat. No light attacking, no AOE's. Having roughly 28k health. No taunt, bow/DW.
We kicked him already after first boss, because a tank that doesn't taunt ends up with a boss running around, which is hard to target with AOE's. He kept re-appearing as tank over and over again, I kid you not - ten times at least. Kicked every time.

I have a dedicated "BiS" Warden DD, and my stamrecovery isn't enough to constantly rolldodge, block and run around being chased by a "untaunted" boss. Well I COULD perhaps do it, if I didn't have to deal all the same time. The other DD probably had a dps below 10k; which would be FINE there, if we just had a tank...
Left the place after being oneshotted or almost oneshotted by the boss multiple times. I simply refused to go non-hardmode and waste an Undaunted Key, just because we didn't have a tank. I had the vastly highest DPS; so the boss aggro was focused at me 100% of the time. I didn't have a seconds breather at any moment.

Conclusion: If somone is kicked or willingly leaves a dungeon; don't let them into the same group/dungeon again. This needs to change. I have left dungeons myself because of hopeless groups, and then ended up in same group AGAIN - having to leave, and end up with a queue penalty.

And this fake tank thing IS really becoming a problem now, for some reason. I have never seen as many fake tanks as now. BAD tanks is ok with my, perhaps not in several veteran DLC dungeons, but in general. People learn to play by doing hard content, but fake tanks just want to get into groups and finish a dungeon. Everyone else shouldn't have to suffer because of that.

MartiniDaniels · November 2018

^ Conclusion - rise boss damage to dlc level, so fake tanks can’t expect to finish such dungeon without tank. Or nerf self-heals.. or both.

Raudgrani · November 2018

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

^ Conclusion - rise boss damage to dlc level, so fake tanks can’t expect to finish such dungeon without tank. Or nerf self-heals.. or both.

I wouldn't hurt at all, if they "refurbished" the old dungeons. Made them a little more challenging, at least the vet versions, "harder hardmode" wouldn't hurt either. I may sound like an elitist ***, but I mean you can still do them on normal and slowly progress into veteran level.
The "power creep" in this game is significant. Even I pull like 40k dps now, and I even have quite sloppy rotations. Older content would be more fun if it was adjusted for todays min-max of players. Running like Blessed Crucible these says is like... Easy. Everything die before you even applied all your AOE's, final boss is run over like dry grass and doesn't even have time to do her special attacks.

tactx · November 2018

I fake tanked on accident the other day. I queued for a vet dungeon without realizing the tank role was selected. Early on I was just thinking god the tank is just not going... wonder what he's waiting for... heck with it I'll just pull to get things started. After the pull I waited again and then looked to see who the tank was so I could call him out and saw it was ME. Ha!

I thought of this thread and said to the group "Okay I guess I'm now a fake tank by accident, didn't mean to queue as tank but here goes." Everyone was fine, and we had no issues clearing it.

paulychan · November 2018

Please stop kicking fake tanks at last boss. Kick them right away. It's super annoying as a tank to always end up in a dungeon that is mostly finished, especially when you needed the quest.
Also, fake tanks and heals are a community problem. Sure, id love to see a matching system that allowed one to pick a group out of a list of groups looking for a specific role, but that's not really a fix. It's players, not devs, that have the fix.
Just queue as your roll. You are not special. You don't get to waste everyone's time with your unwarranted bravado and impatience. If you faje queue, it's 100% on you.

Sevn · November 2018

Fake tanks really are a problem. Twice, back to back got a fake tank with a bow for MoS. You can imagine how that went. Funny thing they wondered why players kept leaving. Didn't notice they were a fake tank until after the 3rd wipe and I had a chance to observe them running around headless. Left group, took penalty.

3rd try got a real tank, did'nt know all the mechanics but knew enough and though we still wiped several times we beat it. I was so irritated by the fake tank I went and made a tank myself and she has been preforming better than I could have hoped for.

Though I'm new to tanking, I find it extremely fun. Not sure why other tanks can't dps and tank, but mine does well at both, only sacrificing regen. 30k health 40k resistance 3200 weapon damage. Frost tank. Using the ice staff just makes inflicting damage that much more easier, at least for me.

I tanked MoS last night and carried the group, 2nd day of tanking. I know it's normals, but I'm done with vets, I have all the monster sets I need and see zero reason to run vets anymore. I used to run them for more stones, but bg's gives me more than enough. The difference in difficulty is astonishing. They really do need a 3rd tier. So many fake tanks probably think vets aren't all that different.

DMuehlhausen · November 2018

Snipress wrote: »

I don't understand why someone would queue as a fake tank or healer for a vet dungeon.

People are so impatient.

You say you don't know why, but then you answer why in the next line. Nobody wants to wait

ZeroXFF · November 2018

Sevn wrote: »

Fake tanks really are a problem. Twice, back to back got a fake tank with a bow for MoS. You can imagine how that went. Funny thing they wondered why players kept leaving. Didn't notice they were a fake tank until after the 3rd wipe and I had a chance to observe them running around headless. Left group, took penalty.

3rd try got a real tank, did'nt know all the mechanics but knew enough and though we still wiped several times we beat it. I was so irritated by the fake tank I went and made a tank myself and she has been preforming better than I could have hoped for.

Though I'm new to tanking, I find it extremely fun. Not sure why other tanks can't dps and tank, but mine does well at both, only sacrificing regen. 30k health 40k resistance 3200 weapon damage. Frost tank. Using the ice staff just makes inflicting damage that much more easier, at least for me.

I tanked MoS last night and carried the group, 2nd day of tanking. I know it's normals, but I'm done with vets, I have all the monster sets I need and see zero reason to run vets anymore. I used to run them for more stones, but bg's gives me more than enough. The difference in difficulty is astonishing. They really do need a 3rd tier. So many fake tanks probably think vets aren't all that different.

Resistances beyond 33.1k don't do anything in PvE. You're better off having other stats instead of those extra 7k you have. Also, weapon damage and ice staff? Shouldn't it be spell damage?

D0PAMINE · November 2018

I was with a friend pugging FG II and we were going for the HM achieve. We were basically carrying them, which was fine. At the end we asked them to please not stand in the dome as we were going for the achieve, and the fight is easy anyway. The other 2 went into the dome right after that, and after asking nicely numerous times nicely they tried to vote kick me. So we triggered the boss, died and waited 15 min until they left, got 2 new people and got the achieve first try in about 3 minutes.

todokete · November 2018

There's a thing called KICK

MartiniDaniels · November 2018

D0PAMINE wrote: »

I was with a friend pugging FG II and we were going for the HM achieve. We were basically carrying them, which was fine. At the end we asked them to please not stand in the dome as we were going for the achieve, and the fight is easy anyway. The other 2 went into the dome right after that, and after asking nicely numerous times nicely they tried to vote kick me. So we triggered the boss, died and waited 15 min until they left, got 2 new people and got the achieve first try in about 3 minutes.

You wanna get the achievement, pick up group from guildies or friends etc, nobody in PUGs is obliged to do it with you.

Ohtimbar · November 2018

Tanks and healers should start queuing as fake dps. Do it for the lulz.

Mr_Walker · November 2018

tactx wrote: »

I fake tanked on accident the other day. I queued for a vet dungeon without realizing the tank role was selected. Early on I was just thinking god the tank is just not going... wonder what he's waiting for... heck with it I'll just pull to get things started. After the pull I waited again and then looked to see who the tank was so I could call him out and saw it was ME. Ha!

I thought of this thread and said to the group "Okay I guess I'm now a fake tank by accident, didn't mean to queue as tank but here goes." Everyone was fine, and we had no issues clearing it.

I've done that. Glad it was only a normal dungeon, and we got through it pretty easily. I only realised after we got to the first boss, and I was thinking "what the f is the tank doing... NOTHING! They're an IDIOT!". Of course, I also thought wow that went down easily, despite the tank being rubbish, someone must be pulling SERIOUS dps.

Much embarrasment.

D0PAMINE · November 2018

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

D0PAMINE wrote: »

I was with a friend pugging FG II and we were going for the HM achieve. We were basically carrying them, which was fine. At the end we asked them to please not stand in the dome as we were going for the achieve, and the fight is easy anyway. The other 2 went into the dome right after that, and after asking nicely numerous times nicely they tried to vote kick me. So we triggered the boss, died and waited 15 min until they left, got 2 new people and got the achieve first try in about 3 minutes.

You wanna get the achievement, pick up group from guildies or friends etc, nobody in PUGs is obliged to do it with you.

Incorrect. Achievements are a main part of the game and even players in PUGS should be able to complete them as well.

Sevn · November 2018

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

Fake tanks really are a problem. Twice, back to back got a fake tank with a bow for MoS. You can imagine how that went. Funny thing they wondered why players kept leaving. Didn't notice they were a fake tank until after the 3rd wipe and I had a chance to observe them running around headless. Left group, took penalty.

3rd try got a real tank, did'nt know all the mechanics but knew enough and though we still wiped several times we beat it. I was so irritated by the fake tank I went and made a tank myself and she has been preforming better than I could have hoped for.

Though I'm new to tanking, I find it extremely fun. Not sure why other tanks can't dps and tank, but mine does well at both, only sacrificing regen. 30k health 40k resistance 3200 weapon damage. Frost tank. Using the ice staff just makes inflicting damage that much more easier, at least for me.

I tanked MoS last night and carried the group, 2nd day of tanking. I know it's normals, but I'm done with vets, I have all the monster sets I need and see zero reason to run vets anymore. I used to run them for more stones, but bg's gives me more than enough. The difference in difficulty is astonishing. They really do need a 3rd tier. So many fake tanks probably think vets aren't all that different.

Resistances beyond 33.1k don't do anything in PvE. You're better off having other stats instead of those extra 7k you have. Also, weapon damage and ice staff? Shouldn't it be spell damage?

It's a hybrid. Most of my alts are. The ice staff is just to tank, immobilize and just overall crowd control. My damage comes from my 2hd. Yeah I knew about the cap, my baseline is 32k, it jumps up higher due to the resistance buff. Honestly I'm pretty content with her. I solo dungeons with her, vma, wb's and other group content.

I beat 3 bosses while every one else was dead, almost solo'd the last boss as well, just ran out of juice with him down to 1% or 2%. It's working quite well.

John_Falstaff · November 2018

Catching up her - @Agenericname , just to add some clarity; I do believe that kicking doesn't give cooldown to the kicked person if they're kicked from the very start, before combat happened. I'm not sure how it's implemented, but I think I heard multiple times around here that if group started fighting, then kicking a member will slap cooldown on him, but if everyone stands at the start and the person's kicked, then they get no cooldown.

munster1404 · November 2018

Ohtimbar wrote: »

Tanks and healers should start queuing as fake dps. Do it for the lulz.

And queue up to 1.5hrs? Nothing to "lulz" about.

Jeremy · November 2018

Turelus wrote: »

I don't even know how ZOS could fix this if they tried.

Other MMO group finders can check you have the right spec to allow you to flag as a tank or healer, but in ESO you can't do that because there is not spec, it's free form character building.

You could run a check on if they have a taunt slotted, but that could just be changed once inside the dungeon. The same for any HP checks, fit loads of +Health items, queue tank and then remove it afterwards.

Locking the skills onto the bar would make sure you couldn't remove them, but most DD can do fine with one skill removed and having a useless taunt on the bar.

They could add a separate report function exclusive for people who lie about their roles in order to cut in line.

They were able to stop gold sellers by prioritizing and investigating those kind of reports. I don't see why they couldn't do the same here.

IN any case: just the mere presence of a special report function for players who abuse the system would likely cut back on the practice a lot.

Jeremy · November 2018

LegendaryArcher wrote: »

@Juju_beans and how exactly does kicking matter? The only people being punished are the DDs and the healer. If you kick the fake tank, he just instantly queues again and gets ruins a new party, since the game automatically removes your timeout penalty when you get kicked. But the people that queued fairly, those DDs that waited for 1h in group finder, they have to either 3-man it without the tank or wait another 1h for a new (possibly fake) tank.

Agreed.

I've made that same point several times on this board. Something else that adds further to the ineffectiveness of this solution is even if you are lucky enough and manage to find a tank to replace the fake one after you kick them - the odds are the real tank will simply drop anyway as soon they enter because he/she doesn't want to join a run already in progress

They have instant queue times anyway. Why should they bother with having to kill a boss twice or re-enter the same dungeon later to complete a pledge?

I certainly recommend players kick fake tanks, especially the ones that don't even bother to taunt (those are the worse). But realistically it's not an effective solution to this problem.

Jeremy · November 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Catching up her - @Agenericname , just to add some clarity; I do believe that kicking doesn't give cooldown to the kicked person if they're kicked from the very start, before combat happened. I'm not sure how it's implemented, but I think I heard multiple times around here that if group started fighting, then kicking a member will slap cooldown on him, but if everyone stands at the start and the person's kicked, then they get no cooldown.

Unless they changed it (and they may have) if you get kicked at the start you'll have to wait 15 (or maybe it was 30) minutes before you can queue again

Jeremy · November 2018

Agenericname wrote: »

LegendaryArcher wrote: »

What do fake tanks have to do with bad dps in group finder? Fake tanks are not tanks. They are DDs. Most of them are actually exactly those "fake dps" you complain about, except it's even worse: Those fake dps now queue as tanks with no taunt.

See the reply directly above yours for one of the reasons. Fake tanks are an issue because of the lack of real tanks that creates the queue times. There have been several tanks in various "fake tank" threads that have spoken out about the reasons they wont use the RDF. If someone were serious about reducing the number of encounters with "fake tanks", creating incentive and removing barriers for real tanks to use the RDF has to be part of the solution.

Tanks are rarer than ever these days. No doubt about it. Nerfing the hell out of them (which was done likely for the sake of lame PvP) is the probable culprit.

Heavy Armor used to make you invulnerable to disabling effects. You also could regen stamina while blocking. This made tanking a lot more user friendly because you did not need so much stamina to effectively block and break free all the time.

Now you almost have to try and balance three different stats to be an effective tank - especially if you use magicka-based skills. It's not easy to pull off, especially in harder content.

These changes/nerfs were a huge mistake and chased people away from tanking on this game in droves. While they were never as numerous as DPS - they used to be a lot more plentiful on this game back when tanks actually could be tanks instead of weird hybrids who have to sparingly use their shield.