I don't even know how ZOS could fix this if they tried.

Other MMO group finders can check you have the right spec to allow you to flag as a tank or healer, but in ESO you can't do that because there is not spec, it's free form character building.

You could run a check on if they have a taunt slotted, but that could just be changed once inside the dungeon. The same for any HP checks, fit loads of +Health items, queue tank and then remove it afterwards.

Locking the skills onto the bar would make sure you couldn't remove them, but most DD can do fine with one skill removed and having a useless taunt on the bar.

There is no such thing as fake dps. There are bad dps, but no fake dps.

The term fake dps seems to be thrown around as some sort of justification for being a fake tank. Yet such a thing simply doesn’t exist.

Monsieur wrote: »

There is no such thing as fake dps. There are bad dps, but no fake dps.

The term fake dps seems to be thrown around as some sort of justification for being a fake tank. Yet such a thing simply doesn’t exist.

Fake dps is one that slots and ice staff and constantly taunts for no reason and doesn't try to do anything else but take aggro, which I have seen.

I also think people who light attack only are fake dps, because they know full well that they should be using skills. It's one thing to have a bad or no rotation, it's another to not have any skill usage at all.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Monsieur wrote: »

There is no such thing as fake dps. There are bad dps, but no fake dps.

The term fake dps seems to be thrown around as some sort of justification for being a fake tank. Yet such a thing simply doesn’t exist.

Fake dps is one that slots and ice staff and constantly taunts for no reason and doesn't try to do anything else but take aggro, which I have seen.

I also think people who light attack only are fake dps, because they know full well that they should be using skills. It's one thing to have a bad or no rotation, it's another to not have any skill usage at all.

I think that's more inexperienced or unknowledgeable player, not a fake one.

Fake implies they know it's not real and have chosen to take that role, where's most just don't understand why what they do isn't correct.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I also think people who light attack only are fake dps, because they know full well that they should be using skills. It's one thing to have a bad or no rotation, it's another to not have any skill usage at all.

You've got to consider the new Psijic tree skill, Imbue Weapon (and it's morphs) however - Link which is used by making light attacks and actually does lot of dps. So in that case using light attacks only would definitely not be a fake dps.

If Zos could make it somehow that a tank is required to slot a taunt for both the search and while doing the dungeon and if they remove the taunt from their bar they are given 2 minutes to put it back and if they don’t in those 2 minutes they are automatically kicked.

I see the words Fake DPS/Healer/Tank all the time. It's really bad DPS/Healer/Tank that is meant. I agree that the game does not do enough to really teach these roles to players. It does not provide a coherent guide that lays out the skills as they relate.

I do hate when others bring up other games as a comparison as most time it is not relevant. But I do think I have a relevant point with The Secret World. There you had to pass a NPC test to advance into Veteran level content. It had three ways to pass the test, as a DPS, as a Healer or as a Tank. Now there you only had to pass one way then could que for any role.

So perhaps if there has a similar NPC test for the roles to unlock them for Veteran content. Vet only as until then you need to learn the mechanics and gain the skills, some of which are from the Undaunted line which requires running the normal dungeons. I would suggest that the NPC test only unlocks the role that you tested for on that character, but you could respec, regear or change skills to pass as another role as well if a player would like.

The NPC tester runs the player through a variety of vet mechanics as well as being able to use the role at a certain level of competence. If you fail the test, have it point out what was lacking. No cool down for the testing and it is solo instanced.

Then we as players have to accept that there are no fake roles, only poorly equipped ones. Accept that normal dungeons are for training and you will have poor or excellent equipped roles in them.

Players will also know what is expected of them as a Veteran level Role. Passing the test NPC would just be the first step, players will still improve but that takes time just like everything else. At least all would know that you have the Role so have the basics down enough to play at that level of play.

LegendaryArcher wrote: »

But then I see Lightning Form. The Sorcerer rushes forward, aggroing everything, dies to the flesh atro. He's our tank. Then he starts complaining about us being slow and no healing.

Generally agree, tank should have the taunt slotted, but if he did agro everything, I see no reason for blaming him - he played his role in this moment even without slotted taunt . And indeed it's the healer to blame that tank died while aggroing everything, maybe healer was indeed not prepared for this, too slow or was just very busy applying elemental drain on all the ads .
I've seen so many complaints on this forum that tank doesn't have the ability to taunt not only the boss but also all ads. If he finally does, there will always be someone calling him fake, just because he didn't do the old fashioned ability taunt.

LegendaryArcher wrote: »

I tell the fake tank to get out of the group, but he doesn't.

Did you just write that you like helping people? Where was this help? You told the tank to leave after his first - according to you - mistake. Were you just irritated of the fact the tank blamed you and healer of his death and this was a reason?

LegendaryArcher wrote: »

I'm tanking the first boss and have 75% group dps on that fight. On trash, I always have more than 80%. The other DD is CP 300-ish, but does use dual wield and bow, Endless Hail, Caltrops, definitely not a snipe spammer. But the fake tank is max CP. Not only does he not have taunt even though he queued as a tank, but he also doesn't even carry his own weight as DD. Too many heavy attacks, terrible rotation. He was doing 5% at best.

So I have a question. If he queued as a tank, but according to you he was a fake tank, which we can't confirm, does it mean he should be automatically a Damage Dealer doing damage? How do you know he did a "terrible rotation". Can you give more details of his build? What Staff, what sets, he was using? And how much % would suits you, if 5% was so low?
Tbh, I have enough seeing this BS about how much % dps is done by this or that player or the bragging about someone pulling more than 80% of group dps. Sorry, to me without your video proof it's just braging and completely unreliable. But even with video it really doesn't matter how much you pull - keep it for yourself!

LegendaryArcher wrote: »

Shortly before last boss, we finally kick him and finish the dungeon.

Shortly before last boss means you kicked him on purpose (in revenge, so he could not complete) right? If you could finish the dung without 4-th real tank, what other reason could be. And yet you wrote you like helping people.

LegendaryArcher wrote: »

Sadly, this happens 2 out of 3 times I PUG random vet. It's just a different dungeon every time. I'm not counting the fake tanks that slot taunt. They're not fake. It's the ones that don't slot taunt even though they queue as tank. Out of about 100 fake tanks I encountered, maybe 5 were able to carry their own weight as DDs, meaning, at least 30% group dps on their part.

I agree with you that fake tanks is a real problem, but also our own attitude is a problem sometimes. If you don't know well a guy, you can't be sure of what abilities he use and why. Maybe it's his playing style, different than yours, however no doubt he should slot taunt or use another way to keep the boss on him if he is a tank. I always slot taunt on my tanks and the only exception is my sorcerer tank using the costless Frost Staff heavy attack. I guess this guy didn't have a Frost Staff?
If he aggroes all ads and die, don't blame him, blame the healer. If he hasn't aggroed enough ads and the ads would kill you, would you blame the tank for not taunting ads? Some people definitely would, I've seen it.
If you can finish dungeon without a tank, why kicking him even if he is not listening. Let him finish, keep telling him what wrong they do, be patient, even if they won't listen to you, even if their damage is only 5% as you claim, he won't have a chance to understand if you kick him in revenge. Maybe he will read again what you wrote in chat after the run is over and will understand and use your advices in next run.
I'm not defending fake tanks, I also don't like them. But I also don't like to kick and be kicked, as there is usually a lot of misunderstanding, especially in multilingual community.

Vildebill wrote: »

@John_Falstaff @Monsieur depends on how you see it I guess, but if a player states that he/she is a damage dealer and then only light attack with his/hers bow to get 7k DPS or whatever, you are obviously not a damage dealer. That's why I call if fake. It's the same as someone claiming to be a tank and not tanking.

If they are damage dealers, so is both the healer and the tank since they are doing as much DPS. To call it bad DPS is just a lame excuse since it's exactly the same as faking a tank/healer role.

I think you’ve missed the point. A fake tank / healer is someone who doesn’t taunt or heal. A fake dps by definition would be someone who doesn’t do any dps - unless someone is afk or dead, there isn’t such a thing as fake dps.

The problem comes when you have players that are simply abusing the queuing system with absolutely no intention of tanking or healing - this is what ruins the game for many people who use the random dungeon finder.

By the other token, what you call fake dps, are simply people who aren’t as good at the game as you may be. These people don’t ruin the game for the majority of other players, only the few who think it’s acceptable to denegrate others based on their ability to play a game.

To think that someone intentionally joins the random dungeon finder as a dps, knowing the queue is going to be 30+ minutes to intentionally do lower dps than they are capable of is laughable.

By the same token the fact that people queue as roles that they have no intention of performing because they are quite frankly selfish, is a shame and a black mark on the community and game.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Gargath , I have to note that it's not correct to blame healer for not saving a squishy dps spec that jumped into middle of everything. Yes he 'taunted', but it doesn't mean he tried to be a tank while wearing (I suppose) light armor and staff. Can't heal stupidity.

I generally agree with you, but where in the OP's post you see anyting that was a "squishy dps spec" tank? I see nothing about specs or stats. Just an info that fake tank had no taunt ability slotted.

Monsieur wrote: »

There is no such thing as fake dps. There are bad dps, but no fake dps.

The term fake dps seems to be thrown around as some sort of justification for being a fake tank. Yet such a thing simply doesn’t exist.

Of course it does. They should add an "other" option to the group finder so that people who get out-dpsed by a healer or a tank can apply for the right role.

I'm pugging very regularly as a tank/ healer, and most pug "DPS" players hardly reach 10k in boss fights.

Fake tanks should receive a week long ban from AF everytime they are caught.

Vildebill wrote: »

Monsieur wrote: »

Vildebill wrote: »

@John_Falstaff @Monsieur depends on how you see it I guess, but if a player states that he/she is a damage dealer and then only light attack with his/hers bow to get 7k DPS or whatever, you are obviously not a damage dealer. That's why I call if fake. It's the same as someone claiming to be a tank and not tanking.

If they are damage dealers, so is both the healer and the tank since they are doing as much DPS. To call it bad DPS is just a lame excuse since it's exactly the same as faking a tank/healer role.

I think you’ve missed the point. A fake tank / healer is someone who doesn’t taunt or heal. A fake dps by definition would be someone who doesn’t do any dps - unless someone is afk or dead, there isn’t such a thing as fake dps.

The problem comes when you have players that are simply abusing the queuing system with absolutely no intention of tanking or healing - this is what ruins the game for many people who use the random dungeon finder.

By the other token, what you call fake dps, are simply people who aren’t as good at the game as you may be. These people don’t ruin the game for the majority of other players, only the few who think it’s acceptable to denegrate others based on their ability to play a game.

To think that someone intentionally joins the random dungeon finder as a dps, knowing the queue is going to be 30+ minutes to intentionally do lower dps than they are capable of is laughable.

By the same token the fact that people queue as roles that they have no intention of performing because they are quite frankly selfish, is a shame and a black mark on the community and game.

I see what you mean, but your idea of bad DPS instead of fake DPS is that every player doing extremely low damage (I'm not talking like 15k, more like 5k) is not aware that they are that bad. That can't be the case, of course some players might not be so insightful, but most people must know that everything is taking too long, and they are dying easily. If you know that you often get in those situations you should stop queue in the group finder and start practicing your DPS, otherwise you're just as much dead weight as a fake tank/healer.

I've met a lot of DDs who says that they know their DPS suck but still queue because they want to do the dungeon. I see no difference from that and what you call fake tanking.

I get where you’re coming from, if a dps knows he doesn’t have enough dps to pass a mechanical dps check in a dungeon, then yes they are being selfish. I still wouldn’t consider this fake dps as ultimately they are still fulfilling the only requirement to be a dps; doing damage, whereas a tank that doesn’t taunt isn’t.

But, I think that’s a very different argument to someone queuing for a role they have no intention of performing, which is what this thread and countless other threads are about.

—-

These days when I queue for a random and see a tank, it’s a nice surprise - it shouldn’t be that way.

Just slot a damn taunt.