MMO Truth: The larger the PVP community, the less game satisfaction there will be.

ZOS_RogerJ · November 2018

Just a friendly reminder to keep in mind the community rules when posting to avoid the thread from becoming off-topic/non-constructive or spiraling.

Dawnblade · November 2018

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

If you want good experience with balanced PvP, don't play MMORPGs. Not a single one in history could create balanced PvP environment (it's caused by the RPG nature).

ESO has some PvP just to survive in very competitive environment of MMORPGs, because all these have it. But there is no way that any MMORPG brings better PvP experience than a game made specifically for PvP purposes, like Mobas or FPS games.

I agree with this. There are some really good and popular PvP games. LoL and Fortnite come to mind. Which begs the question, why would anyone play an MMO PvP?

I suspect its a different breed of player. Its the kind of player (and this is a radical idea that no one would ever admit to) that actually *likes* a degree of imbalance.

If you can put together a build that is more effective, perhaps something that not everyone can do (because they dont have an ____), then you can clean up and feel rewarded for "finding" and abusing an "OP" mechanic.

If a person is the kind of player that wants straight up mano a mano combat, he would be playing Fortnight.

Of course it is a different breed of player - one that accepts and dare I say enjoys the time sinks and grinds that are a core part of MMORPGs, and one who expects to reap benefits from their time investments.

I don't think it's so much of an 'I want an imbalanced game so I can be OP' as it is 'I put in more time than the next person, so of course I should have an advantage'.

Vuron · November 2018

1. The game was originally designed for PvP, or more specifically, AvAvA as the end game.
2. Ever hear of Fortnite?
3. See #2 and add Battlegrounds, PUBG, or any similar game.

Irylia · November 2018

If pvp was end game we wouldn’t be stuck with only vivec until late evening when sotha picks up. Meanwhile shor is a pvdooring players wet dream.

Pve, questing, housing + outfits are end game

VaranisArano · November 2018

The Uninvited wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Wrong. Yes mmos typically have more pve but endgame is usually pvp.

I haven't played any other MMOs, but I know a few people IRL who are serious MMO veterans and none of them were big on PvP and they seemed to feel that PvP gets pretty toxic.

Funny, in my experience I have come across a lot more toxicity while playing pve than pvp.

It varies a lot. I get more hate tells from beating people to resources nodes, but IME Cyrodiil zone chat is a lot more toxic on a nightly basis than any PVE zone outside of frenzied events like CWC.

DaveMoeDee · November 2018

My experience is that Cyrodiil zone chat has more personal attacks and PvE zone chat has more toxic general discussions of 13 year olds.

Earlier, I had my first toxic whisper where someone whispered to me "***" while I was doing writs in Mournhold. When I tried to reply to them to figure out what their problem was, it seems they had blocked me after whispering. I went ahead and shared his name and whisper in zone chat. Maybe they really hate crafting.

It is possible they were irate because they were eyeballing a ruby ash node I harvested next to the gear crafting area in Mournhold. With all the rants in the forums about nodes, it is clear that some people thing everyone else needs to watch them and let them get all nodes, even when we are already standing on top of the node and have no idea the other person exists. Some people really have issues.

RobZha · November 2018

jainiadral wrote: »

Then there's BDO. I've never played it thanks to the rootkit it foists on you, so YMMV.

Have just had a look at that after seeing this and a lot of what I've seen is that people are going over the top with their concerns about it.

I won't be happy having it on my system when I get the game and I think it's good to question this type of issue and look into what it might be doing, but from what I can see it's not going to be that different from a lot of other anti-cheat software, including Steam's VAC program. So if this really bothers you, you might want to look into some of the other programs already on your system if you use Steam, etc, as I doubt it's gonna be that different.

MalagenR · November 2018

ImmortalCX wrote: »

I'm not an MMO historian, but my experience with WOW was that PVPers were the ones who complained the most loudly about balance and performance.

So my questions:

1) Is it any surprise that ESO, a game that leans towards PVP in the endgame, has so many reported problems (here, in forum)?

2) Why would any game developer in their right mind cater to PVPers? Adding PVE content seems to be the sure path to making players happier.

3) Can you name any other MMO that has/had the same level of graphical detail AND scale of PVP combat? Is there another game with a Cyrodil sized map that supports hundreds of players, with high level of graphical detail? (Honestly, I dont know, but it seems unlikely)

Lineage 2 did it bigger, not as good graphically, but it was open world pvp map outside of towns. Karma system was lit. They did it right with sieges being on a 2 week timer too. Playerbase didn't get burned out and clans that owned castles earned significant in game wealth, making it worth it.

JinMori · November 2018

Amazing graphics? They are not bad, but not that great.

geonsocal · November 2018

ImmortalCX wrote: »

I'm not an MMO historian, but my experience with WOW was that PVPers were the ones who complained the most loudly about balance and performance.

So my questions:

1) Is it any surprise that ESO, a game that leans towards PVP in the endgame, has so many reported problems (here, in forum)?

2) Why would any game developer in their right mind cater to PVPers? Adding PVE content seems to be the sure path to making players happier.

3) Can you name any other MMO that has/had the same level of graphical detail AND scale of PVP combat? Is there another game with a Cyrodil sized map that supports hundreds of players, with high level of graphical detail? (Honestly, I dont know, but it seems unlikely)

ZOS_RogerJ wrote: »

Just a friendly reminder to keep in mind the community rules when posting to avoid the thread from becoming off-topic/non-constructive or spiraling.

pzschrek · November 2018

Irylia wrote: »

Pve, questing, housing + outfits are end game

I had a wise PVP companion once say "At the end of the day, ESO is a game for people who like cool hats."

FearlessOne_2014 · November 2018

temjiu wrote: »

mongoLC wrote: »

This game has a large population? Not seeing that.

Guess it depends on where/what aspect you play. I see people all over the place. most major cities are packed, I see people in the wilderness all over the place, and I usually have at least 1 or 2 people in delves and public dungeons every time I go in. So where I play, there's plenty of folks.

Now, if you queue solely for Cyrodil, or other PvP elements, you may not see as many. DPS queues for group content are slow as per any MMO, so that's no indicator. but PvE? plenty.

Not GW2. Queue times for dps in that game are nearly instant, if not then super quick. But then again GW2's group finder are light years ahead of ESO's. Even tho being dated.

Jeremy wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

I'm not an MMO historian, but my experience with WOW was that PVPers were the ones who complained the most loudly about balance and performance.

So my questions:

1) Is it any surprise that ESO, a game that leans towards PVP in the endgame, has so many reported problems (here, in forum)?

2) Why would any game developer in their right mind cater to PVPers? Adding PVE content seems to be the sure path to making players happier.

3) Can you name any other MMO that has/had the same level of graphical detail AND scale of PVP combat? Is there another game with a Cyrodil sized map that supports hundreds of players, with high level of graphical detail? (Honestly, I dont know, but it seems unlikely)

I tend to agree with the sentiment of your title. PvP almost always seems to drag the rest of the game down with it while on its endless and impossible quest to create "balance". I'm frankly so sick of having my builds, skills, and entire play styles endlessly screwed with and "nerfed" to accommodate this misguided perception of PvP that everyone is suppose to be balanced.

It's not going to happen. It's never going to happen. It never has happened. They should focus on making PvP and the rest of the game for that matter more fun and just delete the word balance from their vocabulary.

It took ANet about 4 years to come to this realization with GW2. The game is far more balanced now then it was in the past. Because of the split in skills between PvP and PvE. I'd resub and come back to ESO in a heartbeat if ZOS did the same. However ZOS is not the least bit interested in balance. So meh w/e, thank goodness there are others in the market.

FearlessOne_2014 · November 2018

temjiu wrote: »

mongoLC wrote: »

This game has a large population? Not seeing that.

Guess it depends on where/what aspect you play. I see people all over the place. most major cities are packed, I see people in the wilderness all over the place, and I usually have at least 1 or 2 people in delves and public dungeons every time I go in. So where I play, there's plenty of folks.

Now, if you queue solely for Cyrodil, or other PvP elements, you may not see as many. DPS queues for group content are slow as per any MMO, so that's no indicator. but PvE? plenty.

Not GW2. Queue times for dps in that game are nearly instant, if not then super quick. But then again GW2's group finder are light years ahead of ESO's. Even tho being dated.

Jeremy wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

I'm not an MMO historian, but my experience with WOW was that PVPers were the ones who complained the most loudly about balance and performance.

So my questions:

1) Is it any surprise that ESO, a game that leans towards PVP in the endgame, has so many reported problems (here, in forum)?

2) Why would any game developer in their right mind cater to PVPers? Adding PVE content seems to be the sure path to making players happier.

3) Can you name any other MMO that has/had the same level of graphical detail AND scale of PVP combat? Is there another game with a Cyrodil sized map that supports hundreds of players, with high level of graphical detail? (Honestly, I dont know, but it seems unlikely)

I tend to agree with the sentiment of your title. PvP almost always seems to drag the rest of the game down with it while on its endless and impossible quest to create "balance". I'm frankly so sick of having my builds, skills, and entire play styles endlessly screwed with and "nerfed" to accommodate this misguided perception of PvP that everyone is suppose to be balanced.

It's not going to happen. It's never going to happen. It never has happened. They should focus on making PvP and the rest of the game for that matter more fun and just delete the word balance from their vocabulary.

It took ANet about 4 years to come to this realization with GW2. The game is far more balanced now then it was in the past. Because of the split in skills between PvP and PvE.

If ZOS was to do the same. I'd resub and come back to ESO. However ZOS is not the slightest interested in balance at all. They are only interested on destroying players hard built characters and play styles for monetizing purposes. So whatever at least there is a MMO on the market that at least halfheartedly cares, and has all classes at a fun competitive level with each other.

Tirps · November 2018

Just if NPCs would have forums account and they could post there about how fast they are getting melted..

Even if pvers aren't complaining it doesn't mean that its balanced. It's just way easier to say that something in pvp is unbalanced because of the fact that you are fighting actual players whom can give you feedback from both ends.

geonsocal · November 2018

Tirps wrote: »

Just if NPCs would have forums account and they could post there about how fast they are getting melted..

Even if pvers aren't complaining it doesn't mean that its balanced. It's just way easier to say that something in pvp is unbalanced because of the fact that you are fighting actual players whom can give you feedback from both ends.

thanks for the post...okay then, I get what this thread is about now...pvp is causing all the ills of the game...

it just confused me a bit cuz it seemed that OP was kind of praising eso pvp...

Minyassa · November 2018

I dunno. Every MMO I've played has had PvP. No one has dared to be different. Show me an MMO that has this level of graphical detail, this much attention to cosmetics and personalization, similar (or better, please) housing, a grand diversity of mounts and pets, all these fascinating classes and skill lines and most importantly the depth of lore and story that ESO has, but without the PvP...or better yet, with private server hosting so we can still PvP but only with people we know and like....and I'll show you the game that will get all of my money forever for the rest of my life. I and the rest of the gang that doesn't like being teabagged or cursed at are just waiting for someone to make it so we can throw our cash at them.

MaxwellC · November 2018

For a game that supposedly leans towards PvP... yeah still waiting for that lag fix or DLC that doesn't become dead within a month (battlegrounds isn't the PvP i'm stating more so ICP).
Cyrodiil has remained the same ever since ICP with little to no changes in how you can gain AP other than adding abandoned towns which rarely are fought after.

I've made thread posts about doing a bounty hunter system where the more kills the more famous/infamous you remain with your alliance/enemy alliance.
I've made a thread about a mini-game which only starts when an one alliance is dominating and would involve scrolls and ICP since ICP is irrelevant as ever.

BDO is coming to console (xbox one) and I enjoyed the beta so can't wait because at this rate I'm jumping ship.

jainiadral · November 2018

RobZha wrote: »

jainiadral wrote: »

Then there's BDO. I've never played it thanks to the rootkit it foists on you, so YMMV.

Have just had a look at that after seeing this and a lot of what I've seen is that people are going over the top with their concerns about it.

I won't be happy having it on my system when I get the game and I think it's good to question this type of issue and look into what it might be doing, but from what I can see it's not going to be that different from a lot of other anti-cheat software, including Steam's VAC program. So if this really bothers you, you might want to look into some of the other programs already on your system if you use Steam, etc, as I doubt it's gonna be that different.

Yeah, it's a personal thing on my part. I hate third party solutions that don't uninstall when you uninstall the game. That install clandestinely without your explicit consent. I have a lot fewer issues with the idea of VAC (don't play any of the games on that list) which uninstalls when you uninstall Steam or something like Blizzard's Warden.

Xigncode stays on your system once you've uninstalled and you have to make several registry tweaks to get rid of it. It's made by a company of dubious origin which isn't the slightest bit transparent to the gaming population. I have no idea what data they're gathering, what they intend to do with it, if the backdoor they've opened in my system can be exploited... There's little to no information and that makes me very cautious.

If it weren't for Xigncode, I'd have probably given BDO a shot during one of the Steam free weekends. It might have been fun for a week or two-- but the whole premise isn't really my cup of tea anyway. It might work for someone who loves PvP. I enjoy it in really, really small doses. And I definitely don't like it in ESO.

Jeremy · November 2018

MaxwellC wrote: »

For a game that supposedly leans towards PvP... yeah still waiting for that lag fix or DLC that doesn't become dead within a month (battlegrounds isn't the PvP i'm stating more so ICP).
Cyrodiil has remained the same ever since ICP with little to no changes in how you can gain AP other than adding abandoned towns which rarely are fought after.

I've made thread posts about doing a bounty hunter system where the more kills the more famous/infamous you remain with your alliance/enemy alliance.
I've made a thread about a mini-game which only starts when an one alliance is dominating and would involve scrolls and ICP since ICP is irrelevant as ever.

BDO is coming to console (xbox one) and I enjoyed the beta so can't wait because at this rate I'm jumping ship.

I'll never understand what people see in that Black Desert game. One of the most tedious and boring MMORPG's I've ever played.

idk · November 2018

While ESO does not truly lean towards PvP in the end game considering Zos has been adding trials/arenas to the game a good clip as well as some very good dungeons, OP is correct that most qq about skills and classes comes from PvP.

Ertosi wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

3) Can you name any other MMO that has/had the same level of graphical detail AND scale of PVP combat? Is there another game with a Cyrodil sized map that supports hundreds of players, with high level of graphical detail? (Honestly, I dont know, but it seems unlikely)

BDO. Same level? No cause it knocks all the other MMOs out of the park graphics-wise. Also way bigger scale of PvP seeing how it has open world PvP rather than tucking PvP off in its own little region. I still prefer ESO though cause I the world and lore of Nirn, but seeing how you asked, there you go.

I do not know why anyone would talk about BDO in an ESO forum. It is a flat game. All there is in BDO is PvP because the PvE is rather lame. It is just a cheaply made MMO and nothing more.

ImmortalCX · November 2018

geonsocal wrote: »

Tirps wrote: »

Just if NPCs would have forums account and they could post there about how fast they are getting melted..

Even if pvers aren't complaining it doesn't mean that its balanced. It's just way easier to say that something in pvp is unbalanced because of the fact that you are fighting actual players whom can give you feedback from both ends.

thanks for the post...okay then, I get what this thread is about now...pvp is causing all the ills of the game...

it just confused me a bit cuz it seemed that OP was kind of praising eso pvp...

Let me recap my opinion, now that other people have responded.

1) There is some debate whether end game leans towards PVP. I've seen people say that it does, but there are many people who don't PVP, they just do PVE. I would argue that most people aren't doing *endgame* PVE (trials) and are happy questing, pugging dungeons, crafting, etc. So in that sense, I believe when you compare endgame activities (trials vs PVP), the game does lean towards PVP because the majority of people aren't doing endgame PVE.

Likewise, PVPer complaints seem to be at a constant, high level, regardless of which game we are talking about. In both MMOs I've played that had significant PVP, the PVPers were constantly complaining about balance issues.

I don't really know how to *weigh* this level of complaint against the health of the game as a whole, but I suggest that if someone came to the forums and saw all the complaints they would think the game is garbage, but for the 99% of the player base, things are humming along. I play on PC on a modest machine and generally good internet in the USA so that may factor into why I've had a positive technical experience. Even when I go into CWC during the event and its loaded with hundreds(?) of people during prime time, I only dip to 28fps, but usually its around 60+.

2) As someone with only six months played in the game, I yearn for more PVE content. Much more in fact. And that the number of complaints about performance are a very vocal minority.

So its my belief that ZOS is probably focusing on content like Murkmire, DSA, new dungeons, etc, instead of trying to improve framerate and lag, and they (correctly) made the business decision to do this.

I also say this with a sense of exasperation as the constant complaints do take a toll on my enjoyment. (Is this game sinking?) IOW, I think the complaints are less likely to lead to improvements than they are to help tank player morale towards the game. PVPers are "cutting off their nose to spite their face" and they don't even realize it.

3) Regarding the size and complexity of Cyrodil, my comment is to put everything into context. What ZOS has done, the large scale and complexity of Cyrodil is a unique undertaking. Unless there are examples of other games with hundreds of players PVPing on a huge map, without latency or framerate issues, then the complaints are probably misguided.

First its important to separate the wheat from the chaff. What % of lag issues are server related and what are out of ZOS control because people have bad internet where they live?

Also, because of the complexity of the issue, the scale and complexity of Cyrodil PVP, its unlikely they can just throw more bodies at the problem. They could halve the number of players in a campaign, but then it would feel like a ghost town and they'd have to make it smaller.

My point, in a roundabout way is that PVPers, regarless of game tend to be whiny and entitled. They paint an exaggerated negative picture of the game without realizing that the bread and butter, the money is in PVE enhancements. The whinging just sours other people to the game. Cyrodil is a prime example of this. We have a PVP zone of a much larger scale, in an MMO with the highest detail levels of any MMO, and players are experiencing some framerate drops and lag. Rather than congratulate ZOS for creating this experience, they would rather trash the game, even though there isn't an example of anyone else doing it better. And all this negativity, in a subscription-free game to boot.

My personal opinion, the reason I hate all the PVP whinging is that I think ZOS should continue to devote the majority of their resources to creating/improving PVE elements.

Finviuswe · November 2018

Well I've played a lot of MMOs, man and I haven't found that to be the case.

Both modes can healthy.

MerlinPendragon · November 2018

I came over to ESO a year ago after playing UO for 20 years... and for the most part, PVPers will often end up being the most disruptive members over a games life cycle and because they complain the loudest, they typically punch above their weight and get more attention than is warranted. However, they're often the most dedicated and when it comes to making your voice heard, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. The challenge is having competent developers who can sift through the fluffy complaints and address the real ones. Easier said than done.

Jeremy · November 2018

Agenericname wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

I'm not an MMO historian, but my experience with WOW was that PVPers were the ones who complained the most loudly about balance and performance.

So my questions:

1) Is it any surprise that ESO, a game that leans towards PVP in the endgame, has so many reported problems (here, in forum)?

2) Why would any game developer in their right mind cater to PVPers? Adding PVE content seems to be the sure path to making players happier.

3) Can you name any other MMO that has/had the same level of graphical detail AND scale of PVP combat? Is there another game with a Cyrodil sized map that supports hundreds of players, with high level of graphical detail? (Honestly, I dont know, but it seems unlikely)

I tend to agree with the sentiment of your title. PvP almost always seems to drag the rest of the game down with it while on its endless and impossible quest to create "balance". I'm frankly so sick of having my builds, skills, and entire play styles endlessly screwed with and "nerfed" to accommodate this misguided perception of PvP that everyone is suppose to be balanced.

It's not going to happen. It's never going to happen. It never has happened. They should focus on making PvP and the rest of the game for that matter more fun and just delete the word balance from their vocabulary.

I realize that the point of the thread is to dichotomize PvE and PvP, and as much as I dislike going with this particular flow, PvP is not the sole source of the crying about balance. Within the last week or so there has a "nerf the maelstrom bow", "redguard sustain", "now that we have nerfed this can we nerf that", I'm sure theres a racial passive thread in there somewhere and even an argonian thread. Mostly from PvE.

You could easily find just as many if not more from PvP. What seems universally true is that people will complain about anything.

"Balance" is like "literally", people use it, but they're not always clear on the definition. If they could explain what they think they mean when they're using "balance" that would be great.

You're right, it's not the "sole source" of it. But it's certainly the most dominate one.

Most of us are just fed up with it because we've been putting up with it on countless games over the years, ESO just being the latest example. It was not unusual for my entire build to be wiped out on WoW due to perceived PvP "imbalances". And some of the nerfs that have happened on ESO due to perceived balance issues regarding PvP (such as the unstoppable nerf, the stupid change to breath of life targeting etc..) pissed me off to the point I even quit playing for a time.

I think it would be better if they just separated the two. Because I have never seen the game play actually improved due to PvP influences. It always gets watered down and made less interesting as a result.

Jeremy · November 2018

idk wrote: »

While ESO does not truly lean towards PvP in the end game considering Zos has been adding trials/arenas to the game a good clip as well as some very good dungeons, OP is correct that most qq about skills and classes comes from PvP.

Ertosi wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

3) Can you name any other MMO that has/had the same level of graphical detail AND scale of PVP combat? Is there another game with a Cyrodil sized map that supports hundreds of players, with high level of graphical detail? (Honestly, I dont know, but it seems unlikely)

BDO. Same level? No cause it knocks all the other MMOs out of the park graphics-wise. Also way bigger scale of PvP seeing how it has open world PvP rather than tucking PvP off in its own little region. I still prefer ESO though cause I the world and lore of Nirn, but seeing how you asked, there you go.

I do not know why anyone would talk about BDO in an ESO forum. It is a flat game. All there is in BDO is PvP because the PvE is rather lame. It is just a cheaply made MMO and nothing more.

Agreed.

A flat game is a good way to describe it.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO · November 2018

PvP 2014

PvP 2018

Finviuswe · November 2018

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

PvP 2014

PvP 2018

Even if the graphic is accurate, I've overall been enjoying PVP so far in 2018. I think it's been going great, about as good as 2017.

JackDaniell · November 2018

Im my experiance the pvp comunity always looses so many players to bad performance/changes.

Where is this large pvp player base you speek of?

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO · November 2018

JackDaniell wrote: »

Im my experiance the pvp comunity always looses so many players to bad performance/changes.

Where is this large pvp player base you speek of?

he probably stuck in the information download...from the presumptions id say somewhere around early 2015.

Rain_Greyraven · November 2018

Just because ESO has PVP doesn't mean it's a PVP game.

The devs walked away from that mistake years ago....I'm fairly sure Cyrodil will eventually be revamped into a PVE zone.

That doesn't mean there will be no PVP, I think they can really expand the arena system, even add a epic questline to it along with better rewards....I can see that really becoming a popular staple for the game.