Nerf S&B (sword & shield)

Juhasow · November 2018

eso_nya wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe blocking with a sword & shield provides more damage mitigation than anything else in game.

u r wrong.

blocking with s&b is the 2nd to worst source of mitigation in the game. only blocking w/o s&b is worse.

blocking reduces incoming dmg by 50% at a cost of stamina. e.g. "blocking" 10k dmg "costs" u ~2k stamina and 5k hp. u can heavily invest in blockcostreducers (7x armortrait, 3x jewelry enchantment, 5pc boni) to reduce the stamina cost. ontop of that, your stamina regen stops while u r blocking.

armorrating at cap (~33k; u can get there w/ 7x light armor and u can push up around 65k armorrating) also reduces incoming dmg by 50%, but without a staminacost. 10k dmg "cost" u 5k hp.

red cp reduce dmg w/o any real tradeoff. sets/skills/potions offer maim/protection to reduce dmg before block and armor apply.

read up paulsimmons posts about mitigation for further details on how all the mitigations stack with each other and a nice math example on how to get your mitigation high enough that blocking makes only the difference between 96% and 98% mitigation.

best thing for mitigation: dodge and dmgshields. no dmg taken to hp at minor magicka or stamina cost.

Hmm so we are pretending that 100% crit dmg reduction for all direct dmg abilities and CC immunity from most of the stuns in the game doesnt exist ? Also You cant compare shields to block since shields consumes abilities global cooldown when block doesnt so You can block and heal at the same time for example , something impossible when You spam shields. The strongest feature about block is that it can be performed off global cooldown so You have freedom to do anything else while reciving much less dmg and while getting no drawbacks to other performed activities like healing or doing dmg.

AllPlayAndNoWork · November 2018

Wait so if i pump loads into block cost reduction and have loads of sturdy... A viable counter to big hitting DD's and ganks.. that's not ok ???

Asking for a friend......

Biro123 · November 2018

BlackMadara wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Hmm, after tonight, I gotta say that permablocking is a thing again.. not sure what the builds are - but just had 2 separate, long fights..
One with a DK - never stopped blocking for about 5 mins (interspersed with a ton of snb ulti's) 4 of us gave up in the end after failing to budge his health by more than 15%.
One with a magplar.. Constant jabs while blocking - for 2-3 mins. till I ran dry.. why? impossible to recov resources from heavies vs a permablocker...

Where have all the fear-spamming NB's gone this patch?

You can't block while channelling jabs.

I thought that too.. Even went to test the stam version on my stamplar afterwards and couldn't do it, so assumed it was only possible with the mag version.. (never played magplar so couldn't say either way).

It's what I saw, though.. unless maybe a bug showing the blocking icon when he wasn't blocking? Or perhaps some unintended result of the recent patch?

Cillion3117 · November 2018

So holding a shield shouldn't increase your defence significantly.... makes sense.

evoniee · November 2018

the only *** that need adjustment is reverb as it is melee (almost impossible to dodge) spammable *3 sec Major defile* + *stun*.
it is so easy to exploit with dots build + it is even worse with almost max befoul cp

Witar · November 2018

You also can kinda negate blocking with bleeds and oblivion damage

Merlin13KAGL · November 2018

Juhasow wrote: »

eso_nya wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe blocking with a sword & shield provides more damage mitigation than anything else in game.

u r wrong.

blocking with s&b is the 2nd to worst source of mitigation in the game. only blocking w/o s&b is worse.

blocking reduces incoming dmg by 50% at a cost of stamina. e.g. "blocking" 10k dmg "costs" u ~2k stamina and 5k hp. u can heavily invest in blockcostreducers (7x armortrait, 3x jewelry enchantment, 5pc boni) to reduce the stamina cost. ontop of that, your stamina regen stops while u r blocking.

armorrating at cap (~33k; u can get there w/ 7x light armor and u can push up around 65k armorrating) also reduces incoming dmg by 50%, but without a staminacost. 10k dmg "cost" u 5k hp.

red cp reduce dmg w/o any real tradeoff. sets/skills/potions offer maim/protection to reduce dmg before block and armor apply.

read up paulsimmons posts about mitigation for further details on how all the mitigations stack with each other and a nice math example on how to get your mitigation high enough that blocking makes only the difference between 96% and 98% mitigation.

best thing for mitigation: dodge and dmgshields. no dmg taken to hp at minor magicka or stamina cost.

Hmm so we are pretending that 100% crit dmg reduction for all direct dmg abilities and CC immunity from most of the stuns in the game doesnt exist ? Also You cant compare shields to block since shields consumes abilities global cooldown when block doesnt so You can block and heal at the same time for example , something impossible when You spam shields. The strongest feature about block is that it can be performed off global cooldown so You have freedom to do anything else while reciving much less dmg and while getting no drawbacks to other performed activities like healing or doing dmg.

So, if I'm seeing this right, you're saying if you don't cast a skill, you can't cast that skill, and if you do, you can?

You can block, instant cast, block. The skill you choose can be a heal, a shield, or something else. If you're spamming shields instead of weaving a heal in there, that's player error and completely irrelevant to the comparison in question.

No, blocks don't have GCD, the skills between do, just as with shields.

And regarding no drawbacks, blocks have the remarkable downside to getting charged every .25 seconds (4x worse than the GCD) and shutting off stam regen in the process. Shields do not disable MR/SR.

So true to your own statement, no, you can't compare the two. If there were truly no drawbacks, everyone would be permablocking. There'd be no reason not to.

Again, unless you're running proc set cheese, if all you're doing is blocking, then all you're doing is blocking, same as with only shield spam. Eventually, this will run out, in either case, if any reasonable amount of pressure is applied.

Chrlynsch · November 2018

Hello. I am a scissor. The other day me and my scissor friends were out and about, when we came across a rock. My blades where sharp and we couldn't take it down. Please nerf rock as there is no counter that I am willing to run in order to be more effective against these rocks.

P.s. I shouldn't have to have a paper in my group in order to be able to take out a rock.

-Scissors

Moonsorrow · November 2018

Minno wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

For those that think I’m wrong I’ll direct you here: (take a look at the graph)

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1

What that spreadsheet doesn't tell you is what impact dots have on blocking. Basically it can't because dots deal full damage on blocks lol.

Minno is again spot on. I should just from now on usually post something like: "I agree with Minno." and leave the thread after that.

See someone blocking? Use dots. Or cc and THEN direct damage attacks (on top of dots for max efficiency). That simple. No need to nerf anything. Stop the nerfs already.

You have no idea what that would do to pve tanking. Sigh. So to OP:

NO.

Malamar1229 · November 2018

kaithuzar wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

At the very least this gave me a good laugh. I feel for poor op, btw you are aware of the fact that Ice staff has the same damage mitigation like sword and board, where is the outrage over that? I mean Ice staff Wardens can be a huge pain in PvP. Why not complain about their mitigation?

Because OP is using all direct damage attacks and is trying to solo tanking warden zergs lol.

You’re pretty on point. I do prioritize direct damage attacks but I also use sap.

But looking at the state of magblade what else is there? Cripple is the only “useful” dot we have; IMO it’s not even worth using & splitting up CP points to make it useful.

Shouldn’t buffed 4.5k spell damage, 16k penetration, 45% crit & 92% increased crit damage (according to an addons I use) ~60 points into inc crit dmg cp + race against time psijic skill;
Shouldn’t this scale of direct damage (glass canon style build) be enough to overtake/overpower any opponent?

So your last sentence, you basically think your character stats, instead of skill, should determine the winner. You want to be OP and insteadgib anyone from inside your safety zerg?

Also these tank builds that turn around and ult dump on players killing them....those players are bad. You probably mean leap. Hold your block button. Normally the ppl they kill are bad players.

Malamar1229 · November 2018

CyrusArya wrote: »

For context, the OP is a perma cloaking Xv1 Nightblade. Im sick and tired of bad players screaming for nerfs to compensate for their inability to play well.

kaithuzar wrote: »

Shouldn’t buffed 4.5k spell damage, 16k penetration, 45% crit & 92% increased crit damage (according to an addons I use) ~60 points into inc crit dmg cp + race against time psijic skill;
Shouldn’t this scale of direct damage (glass canon style build) be enough to overtake/overpower any opponent?

No. It shouldn't. And your mentality with this logic demonstrates exactly whats wrong with 99% of people who whine for nerfs. The critical component that your calculus leaves out is the most important one of all: player skill. All the stats in the world shouldnt allow you to "overtake/overpower" players that are better than you. The good magblades who play proper builds dont struggle to take out any opponent barring a DK using wings.

Took the words right outta my mouth brother

kaithuzar · November 2018

IMO the vast majority of people replying seem to either be confused, delusional, or just flat out lying IF you believe “skill” plays a role in this game & is weighted higher than cheese/broken/overpowered/over-tuned mechanics.

Where has the skill been for the dk impulse bats spam at launch? Where was the skill through permanent blocking healbots? Where was the skill through viper + velidreth? Where was the skill through sloads+skoria+ seige?
There’s literally too much to name off!

You ALL should know what am saying is true & have either done it yourself or been on the receiving end; so don’t try to sit here all smug & tell me “it’s all skill”.

If you think that me playing since beta means that I don’t know that I have to CC my opponent in order to deal decent burst damage w/o him/her blocking; you’re an idiot. People who have only been playing this game a week know this.
My complaint is that a “skillful player” if such a thing truely exist, will either try to have cc immunity on cooldown and/or should be able break free before my burst can take them down.
It’s true the reliability of break free is terrible, but with things like pariah or other tank sets they can usually block-> take 1-2 hits while cc’d -> then go right back to blocking with an added s&b ult while their heals go off.

The situation I’ve brought up is not one that I would call cheese. It’s what I would call a slightly over tuned mechanic, I’m not claiming to know the best method to deal with it, but I’m hoping there can be some decent discussion rather than:
OMG lul git gud

So far, dots have been suggested, it’s not completely out of the question, but I’ll have to further debate whether it works with my setup & any other options. Another possibility is running an execute. Impale is obviously good, but I currently don’t have room. The opponent in question was never even in execute range, so it’s a tough call on if that’s really a solution. Thanks to those who have given explanations & constructive feedback already, still pondering solutions.

Minno · November 2018

kaithuzar wrote: »

IMO the vast majority of people replying seem to either be confused, delusional, or just flat out lying IF you believe “skill” plays a role in this game & is weighted higher than cheese/broken/overpowered/over-tuned mechanics.

Where has the skill been for the dk impulse bats spam at launch? Where was the skill through permanent blocking healbots? Where was the skill through viper + velidreth? Where was the skill through sloads+skoria+ seige?
There’s literally too much to name off!

You ALL should know what am saying is true & have either done it yourself or been on the receiving end; so don’t try to sit here all smug & tell me “it’s all skill”.

If you think that me playing since beta means that I don’t know that I have to CC my opponent in order to deal decent burst damage w/o him/her blocking; you’re an idiot. People who have only been playing this game a week know this.
My complaint is that a “skillful player” if such a thing truely exist, will either try to have cc immunity on cooldown and/or should be able break free before my burst can take them down.
It’s true the reliability of break free is terrible, but with things like pariah or other tank sets they can usually block-> take 1-2 hits while cc’d -> then go right back to blocking with an added s&b ult while their heals go off.

The situation I’ve brought up is not one that I would call cheese. It’s what I would call a slightly over tuned mechanic, I’m not claiming to know the best method to deal with it, but I’m hoping there can be some decent discussion rather than:
OMG lul git gud

So far, dots have been suggested, it’s not completely out of the question, but I’ll have to further debate whether it works with my setup & any other options. Another possibility is running an execute. Impale is obviously good, but I currently don’t have room. The opponent in question was never even in execute range, so it’s a tough call on if that’s really a solution. Thanks to those who have given explanations & constructive feedback already, still pondering solutions.

Well we're aren't telling you to getgud, we are telling you are wrong and that the discussion involved various counters already available and some have been available since launch.

At this point, I will need to see some videos of SNB over-performing as you say. Till then it's just a noise thread.

BlackMadara · November 2018

kaithuzar wrote: »

IMO the vast majority of people replying seem to either be confused, delusional, or just flat out lying IF you believe “skill” plays a role in this game & is weighted higher than cheese/broken/overpowered/over-tuned mechanics.

Where has the skill been for the dk impulse bats spam at launch? Where was the skill through permanent blocking healbots? Where was the skill through viper + velidreth? Where was the skill through sloads+skoria+ seige?
There’s literally too much to name off!

You ALL should know what am saying is true & have either done it yourself or been on the receiving end; so don’t try to sit here all smug & tell me “it’s all skill”.

If you think that me playing since beta means that I don’t know that I have to CC my opponent in order to deal decent burst damage w/o him/her blocking; you’re an idiot. People who have only been playing this game a week know this.
My complaint is that a “skillful player” if such a thing truely exist, will either try to have cc immunity on cooldown and/or should be able break free before my burst can take them down.
It’s true the reliability of break free is terrible, but with things like pariah or other tank sets they can usually block-> take 1-2 hits while cc’d -> then go right back to blocking with an added s&b ult while their heals go off.

The situation I’ve brought up is not one that I would call cheese. It’s what I would call a slightly over tuned mechanic, I’m not claiming to know the best method to deal with it, but I’m hoping there can be some decent discussion rather than:
OMG lul git gud

So far, dots have been suggested, it’s not completely out of the question, but I’ll have to further debate whether it works with my setup & any other options. Another possibility is running an execute. Impale is obviously good, but I currently don’t have room. The opponent in question was never even in execute range, so it’s a tough call on if that’s really a solution. Thanks to those who have given explanations & constructive feedback already, still pondering solutions.

There is a skill aspect in PvP in this game. That said, this is an mmorpg, so the manner in which you build your character matters.

Compare combat in this game to any type of martial art, or better yet, mma.

-You have a skilled athlete, that has built up their strength, conditioning, reaction time, and balance to be able to compete in their sport. This is similar to the stats you build for in the game

-Then they learn the ways of combat for their competition. How to score, counter, and overall be effective to increase their chances of winning. This is similar to learning combat mechanics in the game.

-Then they learn the specifics for their own technique. Now here, is where counters come in. It is incredibly difficult to master all facets of any competition, so most people focus on a few. Their are some techniques or styles that counter others, however. So if I am competing in MMA, and I am proficient at kickboxing, wrestling, and judo, and go against someone who is proficient muay thai and BJJ, I am at a disadvantage in clinches and on the ground. I can take him down and get him to the floor, but chances are he will be more skilled than I in that position.

This is where playstyles in the game may counter others. Your bursty, kitey NB doesn't have to tools to counter a permablock build. My DoT stacking mDK with Standard does. That said, their are some people that have built characters designed to be an immovable wall. They have little damage, even with ult, and need multiple people to pressure them down. So now you must make the choice to build to be more well rounded to take on such tanks, or to ignore them and pick off the targets you can take out.

Biro123 · November 2018

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

For those that think I’m wrong I’ll direct you here: (take a look at the graph)

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1

What that spreadsheet doesn't tell you is what impact dots have on blocking. Basically it can't because dots deal full damage on blocks lol.

Minno wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

For those that think I’m wrong I’ll direct you here: (take a look at the graph)

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1

What that spreadsheet doesn't tell you is what impact dots have on blocking. Basically it can't because dots deal full damage on blocks lol.

Minno is again spot on. I should just from now on usually post something like: "I agree with Minno." and leave the thread after that.

See someone blocking? Use dots. Or cc and THEN direct damage attacks (on top of dots for max efficiency). That simple. No need to nerf anything. Stop the nerfs already.

You have no idea what that would do to pve tanking. Sigh. So to OP:

NO.

I always get annoyed by comments like this.. Just use dots.. err, ok.. I have one dot on my bar, umm, not sure that's gonna kill them alone.. 'Hold on! - stop attacking me for 5 mins so I can get out of combat and change my setup to have a ton of dots!'... yeah, that's gonna work..

CC and burst? Don't most CC's get stopped by blocking? unless maybe fear.? Ahh... I get it..!! The answer is 'Be a bleedblade!' ok... Hold on, wait there for 10 mins, while I log off, and back on with my bleedblade - then wait in the queue to get back into Cyro - then we can have a fight..!!

Just use dots... lol.

Its the exact same arguments I see from DK's about wings.. Just use force pulse! .. er ok, let me go and switch from my reflectable dots to a build just for you....

Then there's the dodge-rollers.. Just use AOE's.. there's loads of undodgeable stuff - just use those.!!!

How many skill-slots do you think I've got! We all know that one single undefendable ability on your reasonably balanced bar that is either not spammable (dot), low damage (aoe) or walk-outable (gtaoe's) isn't going to solve any of the problems people have with those defences.
And we all know that switching build mid fight just isn't possible.

Alpheu5 · November 2018

BlackMadara wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

IMO the vast majority of people replying seem to either be confused, delusional, or just flat out lying IF you believe “skill” plays a role in this game & is weighted higher than cheese/broken/overpowered/over-tuned mechanics.

Where has the skill been for the dk impulse bats spam at launch? Where was the skill through permanent blocking healbots? Where was the skill through viper + velidreth? Where was the skill through sloads+skoria+ seige?
There’s literally too much to name off!

You ALL should know what am saying is true & have either done it yourself or been on the receiving end; so don’t try to sit here all smug & tell me “it’s all skill”.

If you think that me playing since beta means that I don’t know that I have to CC my opponent in order to deal decent burst damage w/o him/her blocking; you’re an idiot. People who have only been playing this game a week know this.
My complaint is that a “skillful player” if such a thing truely exist, will either try to have cc immunity on cooldown and/or should be able break free before my burst can take them down.
It’s true the reliability of break free is terrible, but with things like pariah or other tank sets they can usually block-> take 1-2 hits while cc’d -> then go right back to blocking with an added s&b ult while their heals go off.

The situation I’ve brought up is not one that I would call cheese. It’s what I would call a slightly over tuned mechanic, I’m not claiming to know the best method to deal with it, but I’m hoping there can be some decent discussion rather than:
OMG lul git gud

So far, dots have been suggested, it’s not completely out of the question, but I’ll have to further debate whether it works with my setup & any other options. Another possibility is running an execute. Impale is obviously good, but I currently don’t have room. The opponent in question was never even in execute range, so it’s a tough call on if that’s really a solution. Thanks to those who have given explanations & constructive feedback already, still pondering solutions.

There is a skill aspect in PvP in this game. That said, this is an mmorpg, so the manner in which you build your character matters.

Compare combat in this game to any type of martial art, or better yet, mma.

-You have a skilled athlete, that has built up their strength, conditioning, reaction time, and balance to be able to compete in their sport. This is similar to the stats you build for in the game

-Then they learn the ways of combat for their competition. How to score, counter, and overall be effective to increase their chances of winning. This is similar to learning combat mechanics in the game.

-Then they learn the specifics for their own technique. Now here, is where counters come in. It is incredibly difficult to master all facets of any competition, so most people focus on a few. Their are some techniques or styles that counter others, however. So if I am competing in MMA, and I am proficient at kickboxing, wrestling, and judo, and go against someone who is proficient muay thai and BJJ, I am at a disadvantage in clinches and on the ground. I can take him down and get him to the floor, but chances are he will be more skilled than I in that position.

This is where playstyles in the game may counter others. Your bursty, kitey NB doesn't have to tools to counter a permablock build. My DoT stacking mDK with Standard does. That said, their are some people that have built characters designed to be an immovable wall. They have little damage, even with ult, and need multiple people to pressure them down. So now you must make the choice to build to be more well rounded to take on such tanks, or to ignore them and pick off the targets you can take out.

Real-life competitive fighting, or competitive anything really, is a terrible comparison because everybody uses the same equipment, though. There's no combat standard in ESO PvP, it's come-as-you-are.

A more relevant comparison would be the act of you (generic Magblade #28008) trying to take a wild tiger (wingy DK) down alone. You could:

rush straight in and hope the tiger is bad enough at life for you to win barehanded,
realize you're probably going to lose and try running away, or
use wit and the available resources to make up for your own shortcomings as a soft, clawless meatbag

Moonsorrow · November 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

For those that think I’m wrong I’ll direct you here: (take a look at the graph)

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1

What that spreadsheet doesn't tell you is what impact dots have on blocking. Basically it can't because dots deal full damage on blocks lol.

Minno wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

For those that think I’m wrong I’ll direct you here: (take a look at the graph)

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1

What that spreadsheet doesn't tell you is what impact dots have on blocking. Basically it can't because dots deal full damage on blocks lol.

Minno is again spot on. I should just from now on usually post something like: "I agree with Minno." and leave the thread after that.

See someone blocking? Use dots. Or cc and THEN direct damage attacks (on top of dots for max efficiency). That simple. No need to nerf anything. Stop the nerfs already.

You have no idea what that would do to pve tanking. Sigh. So to OP:

NO.

I always get annoyed by comments like this.. Just use dots.. err, ok.. I have one dot on my bar, umm, not sure that's gonna kill them alone.. 'Hold on! - stop attacking me for 5 mins so I can get out of combat and change my setup to have a ton of dots!'... yeah, that's gonna work..

CC and burst? Don't most CC's get stopped by blocking? unless maybe fear.? Ahh... I get it..!! The answer is 'Be a bleedblade!' ok... Hold on, wait there for 10 mins, while I log off, and back on with my bleedblade - then wait in the queue to get back into Cyro - then we can have a fight..!!

Just use dots... lol.

Its the exact same arguments I see from DK's about wings.. Just use force pulse! .. er ok, let me go and switch from my reflectable dots to a build just for you....

Then there's the dodge-rollers.. Just use AOE's.. there's loads of undodgeable stuff - just use those.!!!

How many skill-slots do you think I've got! We all know that one single undefendable ability on your reasonably balanced bar that is either not spammable (dot), low damage (aoe) or walk-outable (gtaoe's) isn't going to solve any of the problems people have with those defences.
And we all know that switching build mid fight just isn't possible.

Dots, CC and then burst been the pvp way of killing against tanky targets always. If the comment "annoys" you then so be it, its the way it is.

The thing is.. ESO is NOT balanced on a 1vs1 scenario, so 1 person should not even be having a build that has all the possible dots/cc/direct damage types for all the possible enemies/situations. Its about groups (small or big) where group members (should) complete eachothers weaknesses with individual strenghts and make it a killing machine, that yes - can take out any tanky targets since the group HAS enough of all dots, cc and burst.

What you are thinking is trying to have some sort of "one man army" that can do anything and roam around killing troll tanks, healbots you name it.. ESO is not that kind of game. With a small group of 4 you can do all that, battlegrounds as an example. Not a single SnB troll tank been living long there against a balanced group.

I really think should not even need to be explaining all of this. But, since you got "annoyed".. maybe this will bring you some happiness instead. Or more annoyed?

Biro123 · November 2018

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

For those that think I’m wrong I’ll direct you here: (take a look at the graph)

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1

What that spreadsheet doesn't tell you is what impact dots have on blocking. Basically it can't because dots deal full damage on blocks lol.

Minno wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

For those that think I’m wrong I’ll direct you here: (take a look at the graph)

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1

What that spreadsheet doesn't tell you is what impact dots have on blocking. Basically it can't because dots deal full damage on blocks lol.

Minno is again spot on. I should just from now on usually post something like: "I agree with Minno." and leave the thread after that.

See someone blocking? Use dots. Or cc and THEN direct damage attacks (on top of dots for max efficiency). That simple. No need to nerf anything. Stop the nerfs already.

You have no idea what that would do to pve tanking. Sigh. So to OP:

NO.

I always get annoyed by comments like this.. Just use dots.. err, ok.. I have one dot on my bar, umm, not sure that's gonna kill them alone.. 'Hold on! - stop attacking me for 5 mins so I can get out of combat and change my setup to have a ton of dots!'... yeah, that's gonna work..

CC and burst? Don't most CC's get stopped by blocking? unless maybe fear.? Ahh... I get it..!! The answer is 'Be a bleedblade!' ok... Hold on, wait there for 10 mins, while I log off, and back on with my bleedblade - then wait in the queue to get back into Cyro - then we can have a fight..!!

Just use dots... lol.

Its the exact same arguments I see from DK's about wings.. Just use force pulse! .. er ok, let me go and switch from my reflectable dots to a build just for you....

Then there's the dodge-rollers.. Just use AOE's.. there's loads of undodgeable stuff - just use those.!!!

How many skill-slots do you think I've got! We all know that one single undefendable ability on your reasonably balanced bar that is either not spammable (dot), low damage (aoe) or walk-outable (gtaoe's) isn't going to solve any of the problems people have with those defences.
And we all know that switching build mid fight just isn't possible.

Dots, CC and then burst been the pvp way of killing against tanky targets always. If the comment "annoys" you then so be it, its the way it is.

The thing is.. ESO is NOT balanced on a 1vs1 scenario, so 1 person should not even be having a build that has all the possible dots/cc/direct damage types for all the possible enemies/situations. Its about groups (small or big) where group members (should) complete eachothers weaknesses with individual strenghts and make it a killing machine, that yes - can take out any tanky targets since the group HAS enough of all dots, cc and burst.

What you are thinking is trying to have some sort of "one man army" that can do anything and roam around killing troll tanks, healbots you name it.. ESO is not that kind of game. With a small group of 4 you can do all that, battlegrounds as an example. Not a single SnB troll tank been living long there against a balanced group.

I really think should not even need to be explaining all of this. But, since you got "annoyed".. maybe this will bring you some happiness instead. Or more annoyed?

This is really what the advice means..:
Dots are the weakness.
Many balanced builds don't stack enough dots to make much difference alone.
So get more people to be able to stack more dots...

I wasn't gonna touch on it - but since you mention it... yeah, everything you say is true - but what it boils down to is 'Zerg em down'. It's like the golden bullet.. the answer to everything. As long as everyone has one thing in their arsenal that bypasses each main defence, zerging em down will work every time!

Datthaw · November 2018

I'm all for "tanks" being able to tank.

Something tells me though, the problem you really have, is this guy killes you and it set you off tilt.

The problem I see with this, is with the overperforming tank and spank sets that allow for the higher damage, but, while running heavy armor snb. This concept to me, a mag only player, seems broken. Mag classes go heavy and it's a massive loss in damage, stam toons go heavy and it's better sustain and damage.

Datthaw · November 2018

kaithuzar wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

For context, the OP is a perma cloaking Xv1 Nightblade. Im sick and tired of bad players screaming for nerfs to compensate for their inability to play well.

kaithuzar wrote: »

Shouldn’t buffed 4.5k spell damage, 16k penetration, 45% crit & 92% increased crit damage (according to an addons I use) ~60 points into inc crit dmg cp + race against time psijic skill;
Shouldn’t this scale of direct damage (glass canon style build) be enough to overtake/overpower any opponent?

No. It shouldn't. And your mentality with this logic demonstrates exactly whats wrong with 99% of people who whine for nerfs. The critical component that your calculus leaves out is the most important one of all: player skill. All the stats in the world shouldnt allow you to "overtake/overpower" players that are better than you. The good magblades who play proper builds dont struggle to take out any opponent barring a DK using wings.

O’rly & the MAJOR point your calculus leaves out is:
“There are no good magblades anymore, especially not solo.”

I can name all of 3 “decent” magblades in PC NA that play on vivec; can you?
I would love to hear about all these “good magblades that don’t have issues open world”, but the fact of the matter is they’ve all quit or re-rolled.

I can agree a bit, magblade is in a hard spot in cyro for solo play.

Rake · November 2018

nerf board but leave sword alone

kaithuzar · November 2018

Datthaw wrote: »

I'm all for "tanks" being able to tank.

Something tells me though, the problem you really have, is this guy killes you and it set you off tilt.

The problem I see with this, is with the overperforming tank and spank sets that allow for the higher damage, but, while running heavy armor snb. This concept to me, a mag only player, seems broken. Mag classes go heavy and it's a massive loss in damage, stam toons go heavy and it's better sustain and damage.

Idk what “meta” you’re playing in but most players I go up against are wearing either:
5 light/medium fortified brass
5 light/medium sloads
5 light/medium impreg
5 light/medium armor master

This can be coupled with a few things to include but not limited to:
Troll king
Pirate skeleton
1 pirate/chudan/lord warden
Malubeth
Skoria
Zaan

And all of the above can be effective for tanking & damage dealing coupled with s&b or a frost staff for extra block mitigation.

Minno · November 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

For those that think I’m wrong I’ll direct you here: (take a look at the graph)

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1

What that spreadsheet doesn't tell you is what impact dots have on blocking. Basically it can't because dots deal full damage on blocks lol.

Minno wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

For those that think I’m wrong I’ll direct you here: (take a look at the graph)

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1

What that spreadsheet doesn't tell you is what impact dots have on blocking. Basically it can't because dots deal full damage on blocks lol.

Minno is again spot on. I should just from now on usually post something like: "I agree with Minno." and leave the thread after that.

See someone blocking? Use dots. Or cc and THEN direct damage attacks (on top of dots for max efficiency). That simple. No need to nerf anything. Stop the nerfs already.

You have no idea what that would do to pve tanking. Sigh. So to OP:

NO.

I always get annoyed by comments like this.. Just use dots.. err, ok.. I have one dot on my bar, umm, not sure that's gonna kill them alone.. 'Hold on! - stop attacking me for 5 mins so I can get out of combat and change my setup to have a ton of dots!'... yeah, that's gonna work..

CC and burst? Don't most CC's get stopped by blocking? unless maybe fear.? Ahh... I get it..!! The answer is 'Be a bleedblade!' ok... Hold on, wait there for 10 mins, while I log off, and back on with my bleedblade - then wait in the queue to get back into Cyro - then we can have a fight..!!

Just use dots... lol.

Its the exact same arguments I see from DK's about wings.. Just use force pulse! .. er ok, let me go and switch from my reflectable dots to a build just for you....

Then there's the dodge-rollers.. Just use AOE's.. there's loads of undodgeable stuff - just use those.!!!

How many skill-slots do you think I've got! We all know that one single undefendable ability on your reasonably balanced bar that is either not spammable (dot), low damage (aoe) or walk-outable (gtaoe's) isn't going to solve any of the problems people have with those defences.
And we all know that switching build mid fight just isn't possible.

who said the dots will kill them? Dots have always been about wearing down a target or adding dmg while you are trying to flip from defense to offense.

CC isnt the counter as he is suggesting. Though if you have an unblockable CC then you can't really complain lol.

Weapon GTAOEs are underrated, passive application of your front bar poisons. If you are using a stam cost poison, then that is another counter to block. You can make double dot with stam cost that stick to your target after 1 hit of this "weak" GTAOE.

Counter to dodge rollers was always the use of AOE to force a dodge roll and then wear them down via cost increase use via the abilities that could hurt them if they decide to wait the cost increase cooldown out. You only need one AOE to force this, and even an AOE burst ultimate works fine for that. If they still roll around like a BMW then let them play Elder Rolls Online they aren't killing you or wasting stamina lol.

Why is wings in this conversation? isn't the real counter to wings just wasting procs on terrible light attacks or ignoring entirely with melee ranged abilities? And force pulse isn't terrible either (procs the same poisons mentioned above along with 20% chance to status effects). Same counter to purge, load em up and force them to overcast the ability.

If on a daily basis you think "hey my fights would have been better if I slotted x or done something different" then chances are you should have slotted X before the fight or done something different during it lol.

Minno · November 2018

kaithuzar wrote: »

Datthaw wrote: »

I'm all for "tanks" being able to tank.

Something tells me though, the problem you really have, is this guy killes you and it set you off tilt.

The problem I see with this, is with the overperforming tank and spank sets that allow for the higher damage, but, while running heavy armor snb. This concept to me, a mag only player, seems broken. Mag classes go heavy and it's a massive loss in damage, stam toons go heavy and it's better sustain and damage.

Idk what “meta” you’re playing in but most players I go up against are wearing either:
5 light/medium fortified brass
5 light/medium sloads
5 light/medium impreg
5 light/medium armor master

This can be coupled with a few things to include but not limited to:
Troll king
Pirate skeleton
1 pirate/chudan/lord warden
Malubeth
Skoria
Zaan

And all of the above can be effective for tanking & damage dealing coupled with s&b or a frost staff for extra block mitigation.

There are also heavy downsides to each of those, and aren't this OP aura around them:
5 light/medium fortified brass (wasting 2,3,4,5pc on resists instead of other defense/damage/sustain).
5 light/medium sloads (need two 5pc sets dedicated to defense or they are super squishy)
5 light/medium impreg (impreg is a great set, but requires resists because it doesnt mitigate base damage)
5 light/medium armor master (requires a armor skill on both bars and to waste a 5pc set on the defense)

This can be coupled with a few things to include but not limited to:
Troll king (carry set for sure, but you waste a valuable 2pc for just healh regen with no impact via crits/healing modifiers.)
Pirate skeleton (15% defile is there for a reason)
1 pirate/chudan/lord warden (2pc used for just resists instead of a damage set)
Malubeth (lol you can LOS the beam to break it)
Skoria (can't you block the damage?)
Zaan (evil set but same counter to malubeth).

The game is really about long fights and the ability to wear down your target. But long fights aren't sexy, yet neither is spending a year to level up a toon to die in 2 seconds, so here we are lol.

Dyride · November 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Hmm, after tonight, I gotta say that permablocking is a thing again.. not sure what the builds are - but just had 2 separate, long fights..
One with a DK - never stopped blocking for about 5 mins (interspersed with a ton of snb ulti's) 4 of us gave up in the end after failing to budge his health by more than 15%.
One with a magplar.. Constant jabs while blocking - for 2-3 mins. till I ran dry.. why? impossible to recov resources from heavies vs a permablocker...

Where have all the fear-spamming NB's gone this patch?

You can't block while channelling jabs.

I thought that too.. Even went to test the stam version on my stamplar afterwards and couldn't do it, so assumed it was only possible with the mag version.. (never played magplar so couldn't say either way).

It's what I saw, though.. unless maybe a bug showing the blocking icon when he wasn't blocking? Or perhaps some unintended result of the recent patch?

They can use jabs during SnB Ult which will give a blocking animation.

For original OP, If the opponent was running double SnB, they could be using either Absorb Magic/Defensive Stance but these only reflect one projectile. What exactly killed you?

Plus they aren't necessarily going to have very high burst dps and will have to rely on dots/Ult/heal debuff to kill.

Keeping them at range with snares or roots will help. Cripple is an amazing skill for this with the Major Expedition for yourself.

Heal Debuffs are also a hugely beneficial component of combating a tank build. Using Minor Defile on backbar poison or a Disease enchant can make a big difference.

I'm pretty sure Crispen and Lenny have decent solo Magblade builds.

Moonsorrow · November 2018

Minno wrote: »

If on a daily basis you think "hey my fights would have been better if I slotted x or done something different" then chances are you should have slotted X before the fight or done something different during it lol.

This. So well said again.

@Biro123 It`s just that so many people are trying to find "that one true build" where they think they can beat any kind of setup any enemy has, to be a combined rock, paper and scissors all in one.

Fact is that all should accept, one can only have all of that in a group, and Biro - no, not "zerging".. or you think a 4 people bg group as an example is a "zerg"? With 4 people you CAN have all the rock, paper & scissors together in synergy and take down anything, even the most trollish setups.

When going true solo, always gotta choose a thing and play by it. And accept it cannot beat everything. As an example, currently my magplar setup is dots (single target and ground aoe) and heals, it lacks fast burst and thus cannot always do that well against some setups, but it can do well to wear down enemies, has nice heals and survivability instead. Does VERY well against those who try to "permablock". It`s not a fast killing blow machine though. But it has builds that can shut me down well enough to pressure me to retreat or die. And i accept it.

The good thing is.. if i want different feel and playstyle, i logout and login with other class and setup and play with that style. I dont demand my "main" to be the magical solution that destroys all classes and setups and thinks something should be nerfed because i cannot find space in bar to take down ANY setup i come against.

Biro123 · November 2018

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

If on a daily basis you think "hey my fights would have been better if I slotted x or done something different" then chances are you should have slotted X before the fight or done something different during it lol.

This. So well said again.

@Biro123 It`s just that so many people are trying to find "that one true build" where they think they can beat any kind of setup any enemy has, to be a combined rock, paper and scissors all in one.

Fact is that all should accept, one can only have all of that in a group, and Biro - no, not "zerging".. or you think a 4 people bg group as an example is a "zerg"? With 4 people you CAN have all the rock, paper & scissors together in synergy and take down anything, even the most trollish setups.

When going true solo, always gotta choose a thing and play by it. And accept it cannot beat everything. As an example, currently my magplar setup is dots (single target and ground aoe) and heals, it lacks fast burst and thus cannot always do that well against some setups, but it can do well to wear down enemies, has nice heals and survivability instead. Does VERY well against those who try to "permablock". It`s not a fast killing blow machine though. But it has builds that can shut me down well enough to pressure me to retreat or die. And i accept it.

The good thing is.. if i want different feel and playstyle, i logout and login with other class and setup and play with that style. I dont demand my "main" to be the magical solution that destroys all classes and setups and thinks something should be nerfed because i cannot find space in bar to take down ANY setup i come against.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not demanding anything, asking for nerfs here or anything like that at all.. I simply take objection to the all too common 'just slot x' arguments, because it means nothing without numbers.

Btw I do consider 4v1 zerging. As most would consider 16v4 to be zerging.

The_Brosteen · November 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

If on a daily basis you think "hey my fights would have been better if I slotted x or done something different" then chances are you should have slotted X before the fight or done something different during it lol.

This. So well said again.

@Biro123 It`s just that so many people are trying to find "that one true build" where they think they can beat any kind of setup any enemy has, to be a combined rock, paper and scissors all in one.

Fact is that all should accept, one can only have all of that in a group, and Biro - no, not "zerging".. or you think a 4 people bg group as an example is a "zerg"? With 4 people you CAN have all the rock, paper & scissors together in synergy and take down anything, even the most trollish setups.

When going true solo, always gotta choose a thing and play by it. And accept it cannot beat everything. As an example, currently my magplar setup is dots (single target and ground aoe) and heals, it lacks fast burst and thus cannot always do that well against some setups, but it can do well to wear down enemies, has nice heals and survivability instead. Does VERY well against those who try to "permablock". It`s not a fast killing blow machine though. But it has builds that can shut me down well enough to pressure me to retreat or die. And i accept it.

The good thing is.. if i want different feel and playstyle, i logout and login with other class and setup and play with that style. I dont demand my "main" to be the magical solution that destroys all classes and setups and thinks something should be nerfed because i cannot find space in bar to take down ANY setup i come against.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not demanding anything, asking for nerfs here or anything like that at all.. I simply take objection to the all too common 'just slot x' arguments, because it means nothing without numbers.

Btw I do consider 4v1 zerging. As most would consider 16v4 to be zerging.

"Nah fam, 4v1 is small scaling, that 16 group that wiped us were just a bunch of trash zerglings even though the odds in the two scenarios are exactly the same. We would've wiped them anyways if they didnt have all 2 of their healers."

DaveMoeDee · November 2018

kaithuzar wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LOL. Someone who does not have any idea of PvE tanking needs.

I agree that it is wrong someone can build for strong survival and still do decent damage, but OPs idea is short sighted and ill thought.

This is a pvp thread. I haven’t stated anything about pve, I know full well this type of change “COULD” affect pve; but that’s largely up to their implementation. I’m merely stating what I view as a problem from a pvp perspective.

No, it is a nerf blocking thread, not a PvP thread.

And did you state whether those tanky S&B players are killing you? Because if it is a stalemate, I don't see the problem.

Alpheu5 · November 2018

The_Brosteen wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

If on a daily basis you think "hey my fights would have been better if I slotted x or done something different" then chances are you should have slotted X before the fight or done something different during it lol.

This. So well said again.

@Biro123 It`s just that so many people are trying to find "that one true build" where they think they can beat any kind of setup any enemy has, to be a combined rock, paper and scissors all in one.

Fact is that all should accept, one can only have all of that in a group, and Biro - no, not "zerging".. or you think a 4 people bg group as an example is a "zerg"? With 4 people you CAN have all the rock, paper & scissors together in synergy and take down anything, even the most trollish setups.

When going true solo, always gotta choose a thing and play by it. And accept it cannot beat everything. As an example, currently my magplar setup is dots (single target and ground aoe) and heals, it lacks fast burst and thus cannot always do that well against some setups, but it can do well to wear down enemies, has nice heals and survivability instead. Does VERY well against those who try to "permablock". It`s not a fast killing blow machine though. But it has builds that can shut me down well enough to pressure me to retreat or die. And i accept it.

The good thing is.. if i want different feel and playstyle, i logout and login with other class and setup and play with that style. I dont demand my "main" to be the magical solution that destroys all classes and setups and thinks something should be nerfed because i cannot find space in bar to take down ANY setup i come against.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not demanding anything, asking for nerfs here or anything like that at all.. I simply take objection to the all too common 'just slot x' arguments, because it means nothing without numbers.

Btw I do consider 4v1 zerging. As most would consider 16v4 to be zerging.

"Nah fam, 4v1 is small scaling, that 16 group that wiped us were just a bunch of trash zerglings even though the odds in the two scenarios are exactly the same. We would've wiped them anyways if they didnt have all 2 of their healers."

Can't tell you how many times I fight a group something like 5v3 after repeatedly dying 1v3 and get a rage tell saying I'm the one zerging.

Breh we didn't even have 9 people l2math

Nerf S&amp;B (sword &amp; shield)

Nerf S&B (sword & shield)