Nerf S&B (sword & shield)

kaithuzar · November 2018

The_Brosteen wrote: »

In a world of nerf bleed threads one soul had the courage to stand up to those cheesy s&b builds that deal 1-3k dps. Not all heros wear capes. Never change eso forums, never change.

Because everyone already knows bleeds are broken; the dead horse has been beaten. Hopefully a change will come addressing that.
My answer to bleeds has been to try & kill my opponent faster, but when they’re mitigating ~60-80% of incoming damage, it’s not an easy goal.

idk · November 2018

kaithuzar wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LOL. Someone who does not have any idea of PvE tanking needs.

I agree that it is wrong someone can build for strong survival and still do decent damage, but OPs idea is short sighted and ill thought.

This is a pvp thread. I haven’t stated anything about pve, I know full well this type of change “COULD” affect pve; but that’s largely up to their implementation. I’m merely stating what I view as a problem from a pvp perspective.

Of course you said something about PvE. I just pointed that part out. You even admit it could affect PvE here. Especially since Zos implements changes to both, not to only one area.

kaithuzar · November 2018

idk wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LOL. Someone who does not have any idea of PvE tanking needs.

I agree that it is wrong someone can build for strong survival and still do decent damage, but OPs idea is short sighted and ill thought.

This is a pvp thread. I haven’t stated anything about pve, I know full well this type of change “COULD” affect pve; but that’s largely up to their implementation. I’m merely stating what I view as a problem from a pvp perspective.

Of course you said something about PvE. I just pointed that part out. You even admit it could affect PvE here. Especially since Zos implements changes to both, not to only one area.

ZOS has clearly implemented “in game sets” which specifically increase damage to pve monsters. Do you really think it’s so hard to change blocking to increase more damage mitigation from pve monsters & decrease it against players?

DocFrost72 · November 2018

kaithuzar wrote: »

idk wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LOL. Someone who does not have any idea of PvE tanking needs.

I agree that it is wrong someone can build for strong survival and still do decent damage, but OPs idea is short sighted and ill thought.

This is a pvp thread. I haven’t stated anything about pve, I know full well this type of change “COULD” affect pve; but that’s largely up to their implementation. I’m merely stating what I view as a problem from a pvp perspective.

Of course you said something about PvE. I just pointed that part out. You even admit it could affect PvE here. Especially since Zos implements changes to both, not to only one area.

ZOS has clearly implemented “in game sets” which specifically increase damage to pve monsters. Do you really think it’s so hard to change blocking to increase more damage mitigation from pve monsters & decrease it against players?

It isn't necessarily "hard", I just honestly don't think it will happen like that.

umagon · November 2018

To take down a tank more than strait damage is needed, most tanks regain health using health recovery and/or healing. The damage has to exceed a tank's ability to regain health. Magblades do not have a high uptime defile and defile’s uptime got reduced.

What zos blanced in murkmire was damage mitigation via shields + damage output builds; what they didn’t balance is damage mitigation + damage output, damage mitigation + healing output, and damage output + healing output builds.

Magblade is basically damage output + healing output build vs damage mitigation + healing output; but here is the twist because healing output and damage output scale with the same stats damage mitigation can be combined with healing output and still have enough damage to take opponents down.

So you end up with tanky players who have good amount of healing and moderate amount damage vs class cannon builds who only have damage and healing, and if it’s a magblade not much in the way of defile uptime. If the tank is something like a warden with corrupting pollen vs damage output + healing output build well the healing gets reduced and because the build is a glass cannon it gets defeated.

Minno · November 2018

umagon wrote: »

To take down a tank more than strait damage is needed, most tanks regain health using health recovery and/or healing. The damage has to exceed a tank's ability to regain health. Magblades do not have a high uptime defile and defile’s uptime got reduced.

What zos blanced in murkmire was damage mitigation via shields + damage output builds; what they didn’t balance is damage mitigation + damage output, damage mitigation + healing output, and damage output + healing output builds.

Magblade is basically damage output + healing output build vs damage mitigation + healing output; but here is the twist because healing output and damage output scale with the same stats damage mitigation can be combined with healing output and still have enough damage to take opponents down.

So you end up with tanky players who have good amount of healing and moderate amount damage vs class cannon builds who only have damage and healing, and if it’s a magblade not much in the way of defile uptime. If the tank is something like a warden with corrupting pollen vs damage output + healing output build well the healing gets reduced and because the build is a glass cannon it gets defeated.

"brawler" builds aren't meta for no easy reason lol.

Joy_Division · November 2018

kaithuzar wrote: »

If I can pump 4.5k fully buffed spell damage w/16k spell penetration & it still takes 3 others to kill you in game; that’s just ridiculous.

edit: I don't think that just because someone is being attacked by 4 players, the game needs adjustment if they die

CatchMeTrolling · November 2018

Well if someone is a magblade trying to take out a very tanky player right now then they’re wasting their time.

On another note sword and board is fine in its current state. Cp pvp is just a cluster *snip* but if any weapon line needs tweaking it’s dual wield.

Hochstapler · November 2018

Come on down to NoCP Cyrodiil and experience exciting, inovative, skillfull and more or less crutchless PVP.

Xvorg · November 2018

So blocking, despite bringing your stam recovery to 0, is OP?

I don't know how to start... do you know those stam poisons? Or that effect called "oblivion dmg"? (By the way, there's a set that applies it as a dot). Or bleeds... jezz, bleeds go through blocking.

idk · November 2018

kaithuzar wrote: »

idk wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LOL. Someone who does not have any idea of PvE tanking needs.

I agree that it is wrong someone can build for strong survival and still do decent damage, but OPs idea is short sighted and ill thought.

This is a pvp thread. I haven’t stated anything about pve, I know full well this type of change “COULD” affect pve; but that’s largely up to their implementation. I’m merely stating what I view as a problem from a pvp perspective.

Of course you said something about PvE. I just pointed that part out. You even admit it could affect PvE here. Especially since Zos implements changes to both, not to only one area.

ZOS has clearly implemented “in game sets” which specifically increase damage to pve monsters. Do you really think it’s so hard to change blocking to increase more damage mitigation from pve monsters & decrease it against players?

You are specifically calling for a nerf to S&B so this comment about sets is irrelevant.

Zos has specifically said, iirc it was Matt himself, that they do not want to change things for PvE differently than PvP. They do not want us to have to relearn combat when changing from one to the other.

Of course we do know we use different builds, morphs and skills when changing, but the point is clear, Zos will not be chaning things differently for one vs the other.

kaithuzar · November 2018

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Well if someone is a magblade trying to take out a very tanky player right now then they’re wasting their time.

On another note sword and board is fine in its current state. Cp pvp is just a cluster *snip* but if any weapon line needs tweaking it’s dual wield.

By that stance, “anyone fighting a very tank player is wasting their time”.
My problem with this is that good players that I’ve seen are able to build for survivability & damage to some extent.
When the community recognizes someone as a good player, I want to fight them.
I believe fighting good players is how you get better.
The game isn’t balanced around 1v1, but open world seems slightly better to me because you can’t (or shouldn’t be able to) build to counter everything that you may encounter.

My suggestion is that anyone blocking can mitigate 50% of damage is too much. S&b adding to that makes for a decent amount of mitigation. I would like to see it tuned so that blocking + s&b = 50%
Blocking without s&b should imo mitigate 25-30%.

idk · November 2018

Xvorg wrote: »

So blocking, despite bringing your stam recovery to 0, is OP?

I expect you are being coy with this comment. There is means to recover resources outside of the base regen stats our characters have. Not to mention block cost reduction can get pretty high.

Anyone that has paid even the slightest attention knows Zos has worked, and failed, to eliminate permablock builds in PvP.

CatchMeTrolling · November 2018

kaithuzar wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Well if someone is a magblade trying to take out a very tanky player right now then they’re wasting their time.

On another note sword and board is fine in its current state. Cp pvp is just a cluster *snip* but if any weapon line needs tweaking it’s dual wield.

By that stance, “anyone fighting a very tank player is wasting their time”.
My problem with this is that good players that I’ve seen are able to build for survivability & damage to some extent.
When the community recognizes someone as a good player, I want to fight them.
I believe fighting good players is how you get better.
The game isn’t balanced around 1v1, but open world seems slightly better to me because you can’t (or shouldn’t be able to) build to counter everything that you may encounter.

My suggestion is that anyone blocking can mitigate 50% of damage is too much. S&b adding to that makes for a decent amount of mitigation. I would like to see it tuned so that blocking + s&b = 50%
Blocking without s&b should imo mitigate 25-30%.

The game isn’t balanced around 1v1 but you want to 1v1 good players or you want to try to kill them in any scenario, including xv1?

Anyways “good” is pretty subjective in this game. There’s good small scale players, duelers, solo players, battle ground players and even raid players but they’re not necessarily synonymous.

Your suggestion would’ve been more welcomed patches ago but as of right now blocking isn’t that much of a problem. In fact, a lot of players don’t even block at all.

kaithuzar · November 2018

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Well if someone is a magblade trying to take out a very tanky player right now then they’re wasting their time.

On another note sword and board is fine in its current state. Cp pvp is just a cluster *snip* but if any weapon line needs tweaking it’s dual wield.

By that stance, “anyone fighting a very tank player is wasting their time”.
My problem with this is that good players that I’ve seen are able to build for survivability & damage to some extent.
When the community recognizes someone as a good player, I want to fight them.
I believe fighting good players is how you get better.
The game isn’t balanced around 1v1, but open world seems slightly better to me because you can’t (or shouldn’t be able to) build to counter everything that you may encounter.

My suggestion is that anyone blocking can mitigate 50% of damage is too much. S&b adding to that makes for a decent amount of mitigation. I would like to see it tuned so that blocking + s&b = 50%
Blocking without s&b should imo mitigate 25-30%.

The game isn’t balanced around 1v1 but you want to 1v1 good players or you want to try to kill them in any scenario, including xv1?

Anyways “good” is pretty subjective in this game. There’s good small scale players, duelers, solo players, battle ground players and even raid players but they’re not necessarily synonymous.

Your suggestion would’ve been more welcomed patches ago but as of right now blocking isn’t that much of a problem. In fact, a lot of players don’t even block at all.

You can think of it like this, open world, ad pushed past the alessia bridge. 4 players on an opposing faction bait 3 ad pugs away from the bridge, I’ll play along & even the odds...

Opposition takes some losses, ad loses a guy, & in the end the tanky player wins.

Xv1 happens as a product of the state of open world pvp; naturally people die.
But given this scenario, maybe I’m just really bad, or maybe there are some small adjustments that need to take place in game.

kaithuzar · November 2018

While I like “fair” fights, I’m not a fan of how unbalanced 1v1 is, I prefer 3v3 - 8vX
I’m not saying other situations don’t exist, I’ve definitely played, won, & lost in a variety; just saying what I prefer.

I believe “the better players” use block effectively. I believe “50%+ block mitigation” is pretty OP if you’re a player who understands how to use it.
You can think of it like a good driver properly understanding how to use ABS (anti-lock breaking system) when driving vs someone who doesn’t.

idk · November 2018

kaithuzar wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Well if someone is a magblade trying to take out a very tanky player right now then they’re wasting their time.

On another note sword and board is fine in its current state. Cp pvp is just a cluster *snip* but if any weapon line needs tweaking it’s dual wield.

By that stance, “anyone fighting a very tank player is wasting their time”.
My problem with this is that good players that I’ve seen are able to build for survivability & damage to some extent.
When the community recognizes someone as a good player, I want to fight them.
I believe fighting good players is how you get better.
The game isn’t balanced around 1v1, but open world seems slightly better to me because you can’t (or shouldn’t be able to) build to counter everything that you may encounter.

My suggestion is that anyone blocking can mitigate 50% of damage is too much. S&b adding to that makes for a decent amount of mitigation. I would like to see it tuned so that blocking + s&b = 50%
Blocking without s&b should imo mitigate 25-30%.

The game isn’t balanced around 1v1 but you want to 1v1 good players or you want to try to kill them in any scenario, including xv1?

Anyways “good” is pretty subjective in this game. There’s good small scale players, duelers, solo players, battle ground players and even raid players but they’re not necessarily synonymous.

Your suggestion would’ve been more welcomed patches ago but as of right now blocking isn’t that much of a problem. In fact, a lot of players don’t even block at all.

You can think of it like this, open world, ad pushed past the alessia bridge. 4 players on an opposing faction bait 3 ad pugs away from the bridge, I’ll play along & even the odds...

Opposition takes some losses, ad loses a guy, & in the end the tanky player wins.

Xv1 happens as a product of the state of open world pvp; naturally people die.
But given this scenario, maybe I’m just really bad, or maybe there are some small adjustments that need to take place in game.

This really says nothing about S&B though.

kaithuzar · November 2018

idk wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Well if someone is a magblade trying to take out a very tanky player right now then they’re wasting their time.

On another note sword and board is fine in its current state. Cp pvp is just a cluster *snip* but if any weapon line needs tweaking it’s dual wield.

By that stance, “anyone fighting a very tank player is wasting their time”.
My problem with this is that good players that I’ve seen are able to build for survivability & damage to some extent.
When the community recognizes someone as a good player, I want to fight them.
I believe fighting good players is how you get better.
The game isn’t balanced around 1v1, but open world seems slightly better to me because you can’t (or shouldn’t be able to) build to counter everything that you may encounter.

My suggestion is that anyone blocking can mitigate 50% of damage is too much. S&b adding to that makes for a decent amount of mitigation. I would like to see it tuned so that blocking + s&b = 50%
Blocking without s&b should imo mitigate 25-30%.

The game isn’t balanced around 1v1 but you want to 1v1 good players or you want to try to kill them in any scenario, including xv1?

Anyways “good” is pretty subjective in this game. There’s good small scale players, duelers, solo players, battle ground players and even raid players but they’re not necessarily synonymous.

Your suggestion would’ve been more welcomed patches ago but as of right now blocking isn’t that much of a problem. In fact, a lot of players don’t even block at all.

You can think of it like this, open world, ad pushed past the alessia bridge. 4 players on an opposing faction bait 3 ad pugs away from the bridge, I’ll play along & even the odds...

Opposition takes some losses, ad loses a guy, & in the end the tanky player wins.

Xv1 happens as a product of the state of open world pvp; naturally people die.
But given this scenario, maybe I’m just really bad, or maybe there are some small adjustments that need to take place in game.

This really says nothing about S&B though.

Dude was running double s&b build, I didn’t sit down & have coffe with the guy, or chat him up, I died & contemplated why.

The result of my thinking was what I posted earlier...blocking + s&b should equal 50% mitigation not more than that; which it currently does.

Ragnarock41 · November 2018

Homestead patch called, they want their post back.

CatchMeTrolling · November 2018

kaithuzar wrote: »

While I like “fair” fights, I’m not a fan of how unbalanced 1v1 is, I prefer 3v3 - 8vX
I’m not saying other situations don’t exist, I’ve definitely played, won, & lost in a variety; just saying what I prefer.

I believe “the better players” use block effectively. I believe “50%+ block mitigation” is pretty OP if you’re a player who understands how to use it.
You can think of it like a good driver properly understanding how to use ABS (anti-lock breaking system) when driving vs someone who doesn’t.

Yes the better players use it , albeit it isn’t spammed. The issue I can see happening is block casting vigor. Plus if a player is proactively healing rather than waiting to heal they can seem tankier than they really are.

But in terms of perma blocking you’ll burn too many resources, timed blocking and block casting heals is where it’s at.

idk · November 2018

kaithuzar wrote: »

idk wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Well if someone is a magblade trying to take out a very tanky player right now then they’re wasting their time.

On another note sword and board is fine in its current state. Cp pvp is just a cluster *snip* but if any weapon line needs tweaking it’s dual wield.

By that stance, “anyone fighting a very tank player is wasting their time”.
My problem with this is that good players that I’ve seen are able to build for survivability & damage to some extent.
When the community recognizes someone as a good player, I want to fight them.
I believe fighting good players is how you get better.
The game isn’t balanced around 1v1, but open world seems slightly better to me because you can’t (or shouldn’t be able to) build to counter everything that you may encounter.

My suggestion is that anyone blocking can mitigate 50% of damage is too much. S&b adding to that makes for a decent amount of mitigation. I would like to see it tuned so that blocking + s&b = 50%
Blocking without s&b should imo mitigate 25-30%.

The game isn’t balanced around 1v1 but you want to 1v1 good players or you want to try to kill them in any scenario, including xv1?

Anyways “good” is pretty subjective in this game. There’s good small scale players, duelers, solo players, battle ground players and even raid players but they’re not necessarily synonymous.

Your suggestion would’ve been more welcomed patches ago but as of right now blocking isn’t that much of a problem. In fact, a lot of players don’t even block at all.

You can think of it like this, open world, ad pushed past the alessia bridge. 4 players on an opposing faction bait 3 ad pugs away from the bridge, I’ll play along & even the odds...

Opposition takes some losses, ad loses a guy, & in the end the tanky player wins.

Xv1 happens as a product of the state of open world pvp; naturally people die.
But given this scenario, maybe I’m just really bad, or maybe there are some small adjustments that need to take place in game.

This really says nothing about S&B though.

Dude was running double s&b build, I didn’t sit down & have coffe with the guy, or chat him up, I died & contemplated why.

The result of my thinking was what I posted earlier...blocking + s&b should equal 50% mitigation not more than that; which it currently does.

It does seem you are lacking some information on mitigation. S&B itself is not going to give someone super high survival. It is also irrelevant that they had S&B equipped on both bars.

Again, I do take issue with being able to build for high survival and still be able to do damage, but not either separately. The point and suggestion made in the OP just lacks information to support it, as you even admit in the reply I quoted. Without support it is just an uninformed complaint.

BlackMadara · November 2018

People seem to dislike the rock paper scissors aspect of ESO pvp but it is a very efficient system. This is due to it being very similar to how real life combat works.

Example: some martial arts are distinctly better than others. Some are better in certain situations, depending on imposed restrictions in rules of competition. A wrestler can beat boxer if he gets him on the ground. That same wrestler will lose to a BJJ competitor on the ground however.

The beauty of this game, and MMA, is that you can build/train for a multitude of situations and reduce your available counters.

Blocking counters burst oriented DPS. I don't permablock, but I time blocks with big hits that I predict are coming.

OP, adapt to pressure block utilizing players. Then, as a mNB, time your cc with your ult and spec bow proc. With the slower projectile speed of bow proc, you could probably have it land as you gap close, fear, ult. If you have as much damage as you claim, you should be able to drop 20-30k even off high resistance targets. I can with my mDK with 1000 less SD than you.

idk · November 2018

BlackMadara wrote: »

People seem to dislike the rock paper scissors aspect of ESO pvp but it is a very efficient system. This is due to it being very similar to how real life combat works.

Example: some martial arts are distinctly better than others. Some are better in certain situations, depending on imposed restrictions in rules of competition. A wrestler can beat boxer if he gets him on the ground. That same wrestler will lose to a BJJ competitor on the ground however.

The beauty of this game, and MMA, is that you can build/train for a multitude of situations and reduce your available counters.

Blocking counters burst oriented DPS. I don't permablock, but I time blocks with big hits that I predict are coming.

OP, adapt to pressure block utilizing players. Then, as a mNB, time your cc with your ult and spec bow proc. With the slower projectile speed of bow proc, you could probably have it land as you gap close, fear, ult. If you have as much damage as you claim, you should be able to drop 20-30k even off high resistance targets. I can with my mDK with 1000 less SD than you.

You bring up a very good point, in using your skills.

The use of fear (or any CC) reminded me of the previous MMORPG I played. I often PvPed as a healer and DPS would try to kill me but would just mindlessly do their dps rotation. Rarely would I get interrupted on my biggest heals which were easy to see. In other words, they did not use their skills.

paulsimonps · November 2018

BlackMadara wrote: »

People seem to dislike the rock paper scissors aspect of ESO pvp but it is a very efficient system. This is due to it being very similar to how real life combat works.

Example: some martial arts are distinctly better than others. Some are better in certain situations, depending on imposed restrictions in rules of competition. A wrestler can beat boxer if he gets him on the ground. That same wrestler will lose to a BJJ competitor on the ground however.

The beauty of this game, and MMA, is that you can build/train for a multitude of situations and reduce your available counters.

Blocking counters burst oriented DPS. I don't permablock, but I time blocks with big hits that I predict are coming.

OP, adapt to pressure block utilizing players. Then, as a mNB, time your cc with your ult and spec bow proc. With the slower projectile speed of bow proc, you could probably have it land as you gap close, fear, ult. If you have as much damage as you claim, you should be able to drop 20-30k even off high resistance targets. I can with my mDK with 1000 less SD than you.

Great write up, now that is how you deal with a block speced player. Especially something like a mNB that has the proc of Merciless Resolve that they can save up for their Fear, with a strong ulti to combine it with you got a really strong burst to hit them with while their guard is down and they can't block. Apply some unblockable DoTs before the Fear and the nuke will be even stronger. And this is just one of many ways to deal with them. Other play styles have counters too them as well, and I am sure there are people that can do write ups like these for them as well.

Biro123 · November 2018

Hmm, after tonight, I gotta say that permablocking is a thing again.. not sure what the builds are - but just had 2 separate, long fights..
One with a DK - never stopped blocking for about 5 mins (interspersed with a ton of snb ulti's) 4 of us gave up in the end after failing to budge his health by more than 15%.
One with a magplar.. Constant jabs while blocking - for 2-3 mins. till I ran dry.. why? impossible to recov resources from heavies vs a permablocker...

Where have all the fear-spamming NB's gone this patch?

Lutallo · November 2018

Blocking should be a tactical reaction in PvP when you anticipate massive damage. Not a sole form of mitigation for the zergling healbot to spam BoL.

ccmedaddy · November 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

Constant jabs while blocking

CatchMeTrolling · November 2018

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Constant jabs while blocking

Same thing I thought but left it alone

BlackMadara · November 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

Hmm, after tonight, I gotta say that permablocking is a thing again.. not sure what the builds are - but just had 2 separate, long fights..
One with a DK - never stopped blocking for about 5 mins (interspersed with a ton of snb ulti's) 4 of us gave up in the end after failing to budge his health by more than 15%.
One with a magplar.. Constant jabs while blocking - for 2-3 mins. till I ran dry.. why? impossible to recov resources from heavies vs a permablocker...

Where have all the fear-spamming NB's gone this patch?

You can't block while channelling jabs.

HowlKimchi · November 2018

while I agree that magblades need some love in the pvp department, I dont think blocking should be nerfed. It's very costly to keep blocking, and also as a magblade, I mostly ignore permablockers since (1) they are not my main targets, and (2) they probably cant deal damage anyway. Best counter is to ignore them.

If I do fight them though, nothing is more satisfying than timing my soul harvest > mass hysteria > spectral bow combo! (which admittedly, got harder to pulloff what with the changes to spectral bow and the cyrodiil lag)

Nerf S&amp;B (sword &amp; shield)

Nerf S&B (sword & shield)