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So last night guild chat blew up..and bit of "nerf "rant in the end
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Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭grim_tactics wrote: »So it took 4 years for my entire clan to finally leave ESO.
Not going to whine and moan about it but, yes, I had ESO+ since it came out and now I no longer do.
For me, it was their refusal to update the servers on console to make PvP even remotely playable.
This is the largest reason that I see for dissatisfaction, actually. ZOS has really dropped the ball on addressing performance concerns in this game. They don't even talk about it, anymore. When they do, it is always a "top priority". I'm not sure that know what that phrase means.
As for the rest... This update did not hit me very hard, compared to other updates. I have very little new to complain about.XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »
as stated, FACT
Actually it's not. But keep using all caps if it makes you feel better. The necessity of shields in PVE is 90% a result of content design. ZOS can say they changed them to make healers feel useful, but the abundance of one-shot mechanics wildly contradicts that.
As to PVP, well, shields are one of the weaker forms of damage mitigation in PVE. They have the advantage of being simple and straightforward to use, but they are expensive and do not scale with multiple opponents. They are also an active defense which forces a very binary playstyle, as you are either on offense or you are on deffense. Again, simple, but by no means the most powerful or effective way to defend in PVP.
I fundamentally disagree with your OPINION (oh that is fun) that shields were over performing.
OK... The 90% content design, do you mean vet trials? because that's the only time I can see where the shield spam would be kinda needed, all other content with the exception of vet hm new dlc does not require an invulnerability button.
Its only sorcerers that are complaining because people say its a class defining skill or refuse to find a different way around their personal problem.
The shields were over performing you have to admit that. in PVP they still are.
If the content is no longer super easy that's a good thing right? more challenge? more interesting?
To say something is overperforming, what does that mean? It means that it's too good at doing its job compared to the alternative. Shields simply are not overperforming in PVP now, and they werent last patch. Perma block, perma dodge, abundance of self heals, and cloak, are all more effective at mitigating damage than shields, especially if that damage is coming from multiple sources. They are simple and straight forward to use, and they are reasonably strong 1v1, but when it comes to open world PVP, shields are low on the list in terms of damage mitigation tools.
In PVE, there are only three places where shields are really needed. VCR, Back room of VMOL (sure it can be done without one), and VAS because everyone is so spreed out (content design), its very hard for a healer (who has other jobs on that fight) to keep everyone up at all times. In VCR shields are useful downstairs, especially with overlapping mechanics, but again, you use shields because you get one shot. Upstairs, you dont need shields because its all oblivion damage.
The biggest argument I see for saying shields were OP anywhere was 4 man content, because certainly good groups can stack for mag DPS with one using a taunt and run really fast. That said, stam can do the same thing without them. Even in the 3 mageblade group meta, i would go entire runs without casting shields, because there was so much healing going around. In vet trials on my mageblade, I typically dont even run a shiled in a good group so I can double bar IL and run Minor force.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on November 9, 2018 9:23PM3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »You are a special kind of stupid if you believe any dev that said making shields critable or having resistance effect them was for PVE reasons. PVE enemies don't crit, nor do they have weapon or spell pen!
So damn true. It was 100% for PVP reasons, but they couldn't actually sell that to the playerbase because many people think Stam when they think PvP.
So they pretended it was about PVE.5 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »
as stated, FACT
Actually it's not. But keep using all caps if it makes you feel better. The necessity of shields in PVE is 90% a result of content design. ZOS can say they changed them to make healers feel useful, but the abundance of one-shot mechanics wildly contradicts that.
As to PVP, well, shields are one of the weaker forms of damage mitigation in PVE. They have the advantage of being simple and straightforward to use, but they are expensive and do not scale with multiple opponents. They are also an active defense which forces a very binary playstyle, as you are either on offense or you are on deffense. Again, simple, but by no means the most powerful or effective way to defend in PVP.
I fundamentally disagree with your OPINION (oh that is fun) that shields were over performing.
OK... The 90% content design, do you mean vet trials? because that's the only time I can see where the shield spam would be kinda needed, all other content with the exception of vet hm new dlc does not require an invulnerability button.
Its only sorcerers that are complaining because people say its a class defining skill or refuse to find a different way around their personal problem.
The shields were over performing you have to admit that. in PVP they still are.
If the content is no longer super easy that's a good thing right? more challenge? more interesting?
"The shields were over performing you have to admit that."
If they were overperforming, the hardest content would have higher completion ratios. There was nothing from any class overperforming in PvE because PvE was and still is not accessible to even the top 25% of the playerbase, with the exception of base game + craglorn content.Edited by spartaxoxo on November 9, 2018 5:56PM1 -
ezio45✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Xbox One NA feels dead and A lot of people seem angry at the nerfs this is definitely Morrowind 2.0 for many people and a lot of long timer players are checking out the open beta of Black Desert Online which unlike Tera and Skyforge is one of the top 5MMOs out there on PC
yup, all of my gc's are completely dead
I had to leave 1 or 2 guilds the guild masters left and now I can't find anyone good enough to beat vet trials, DLC dungeons, or the new Blackrose Prison. PvP is boring and my main mag sorc is garbage and id rather just play other game than reroll I always see the same people in PvP and PvP is at its lowest point population wise.
They killed this game and now that real MMO competition is finally coming to Xbox One in early 2019 (PS4 already has FF14) and the fact that RDR2 is out ESO is going to be dead soon this game has been on life support since 2.2 the only people that will be playing ESO in 2019 are the die hard Elder Scrolls fans and most of them are waiting on Elder Scrolls 6 anyhow.
well said friend1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Girl_Number8 wrote: »
Last I checked? Yep.
Man, just the idea of BDO on a console is hilarious. Given, you know, you're supposed to leave it running in the background while you do other things.0 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭PVE nerfs often happen as a result of Zos internal stats indicating balance issues.
These were specifically to give PVE healers more of a role.
Do you think the Devs themselves don't want their game to be balanced?
Oh they want. They just lack the ability to do so.Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO0 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭kypranb14_ESO wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »You are a special kind of stupid if you believe any dev that said making shields critable or having resistance effect them was for PVE reasons. PVE enemies don't crit, nor do they have weapon or spell pen!
The fact that PVE enemies do not have weapon or spell pen, and do not crit, makes the resistance changes to shields a direct PVE buff, for increasing the survivability of your character. However, that would assume you want to build around survivability.
If you build like a glass cannon, you should be treated like one.
Too bad that, even if you build like a glass cannon, you magsorc do barely above DPS than a nerfed magwarden.
ATM magsorcs are glass jokes, not glass cannons.
In a world where everything is based on Risk vs Reward, magsorcs were less rewarded because they were survivable.
Now, ZOS, increased the risk without upping the reward to match with everyone else.Edited by Vahrokh on November 9, 2018 8:48PMVaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO3 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Xbox One NA feels dead and A lot of people seem angry at the nerfs this is definitely Morrowind 2.0 for many people and a lot of long timer players are checking out the open beta of Black Desert Online which unlike Tera and Skyforge is one of the top 5MMOs out there on PC
yup, all of my gc's are completely dead
I had to leave 1 or 2 guilds the guild masters left and now I can't find anyone good enough to beat vet trials, DLC dungeons, or the new Blackrose Prison. PvP is boring and my main mag sorc is garbage and id rather just play other game than reroll I always see the same people in PvP and PvP is at its lowest point population wise.
They killed this game and now that real MMO competition is finally coming to Xbox One in early 2019 (PS4 already has FF14) and the fact that RDR2 is out ESO is going to be dead soon this game has been on life support since 2.2 the only people that will be playing ESO in 2019 are the die hard Elder Scrolls fans and most of them are waiting on Elder Scrolls 6 anyhow.
Totally true!
I play on PC and before Nerfmire I was in:
- 3 trial guilds (one of which, hard core progression)
- 2 prominent trading guilds (with traders in Deshaan, Belkhart, Elden Root, Alinor etc.)
After 1 week of Nerfmire:
- hard core progression guild disbanded.
- soft core trial guild 1 stopped being able to do any trial. Only casual / 4men guys left. Now they are recruiting...
- soft core trial guild 2 stopped being able to do any trial. Now it's back to vHRC (used to farm vMOL, all hm Craglorn trials etc.)
- I used to be #200 trader on trading guild 1, went up to #80
- Similar destiny on the other guild.
Friends list lost EVERYONE except two. One now plays twice a week, the other once a week. They used to play all days.
So, what's left of this game? A MMO is meant to be a social game, and loses all the fun if you log in and find yourself alone.
Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO10 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »You are a special kind of stupid if you believe any dev that said making shields critable or having resistance effect them was for PVE reasons. PVE enemies don't crit, nor do they have weapon or spell pen!
So damn true. It was 100% for PVP reasons, but they couldn't actually sell that to the playerbase because many people think Stam when they think PvP.
So they pretended it was about PVE.
Except Shields are pretty much the same in PvP and have only significantly changed in PvE content, making them more beneficial to Tank specs and less so to pure DPS specs.Argonian forever0 -
Starlight_Knight✭✭✭✭✭
✭ive lost a lot of friends this patch, some for good as well. But Zos look at the statistics and see they're getting new subs and just think " out with the old in with the new" they don't care about retention, they might say or pretend they do but actions speak louder than words.6 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Xbox One NA feels dead and A lot of people seem angry at the nerfs this is definitely Morrowind 2.0 for many people and a lot of long timer players are checking out the open beta of Black Desert Online which unlike Tera and Skyforge is one of the top 5MMOs out there on PC
yup, all of my gc's are completely dead
I had to leave 1 or 2 guilds the guild masters left and now I can't find anyone good enough to beat vet trials, DLC dungeons, or the new Blackrose Prison. PvP is boring and my main mag sorc is garbage and id rather just play other game than reroll I always see the same people in PvP and PvP is at its lowest point population wise.
They killed this game and now that real MMO competition is finally coming to Xbox One in early 2019 (PS4 already has FF14) and the fact that RDR2 is out ESO is going to be dead soon this game has been on life support since 2.2 the only people that will be playing ESO in 2019 are the die hard Elder Scrolls fans and most of them are waiting on Elder Scrolls 6 anyhow.
Translation, you ran in a guild filled with people who never really learned to play the content, and now that the broken defense buff is gone, they can't complete anything anymore.
Also, probably the same kind of players who were insisting that stam was worthless for everything, and were actively excluding stam players.
So, basically, nothing of value was lost.3 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Xbox One NA feels dead and A lot of people seem angry at the nerfs this is definitely Morrowind 2.0 for many people and a lot of long timer players are checking out the open beta of Black Desert Online which unlike Tera and Skyforge is one of the top 5MMOs out there on PC
yup, all of my gc's are completely dead
I had to leave 1 or 2 guilds the guild masters left and now I can't find anyone good enough to beat vet trials, DLC dungeons, or the new Blackrose Prison. PvP is boring and my main mag sorc is garbage and id rather just play other game than reroll I always see the same people in PvP and PvP is at its lowest point population wise.
They killed this game and now that real MMO competition is finally coming to Xbox One in early 2019 (PS4 already has FF14) and the fact that RDR2 is out ESO is going to be dead soon this game has been on life support since 2.2 the only people that will be playing ESO in 2019 are the die hard Elder Scrolls fans and most of them are waiting on Elder Scrolls 6 anyhow.
Translation, you ran in a guild filled with people who never really learned to play the content, and now that the broken defense buff is gone, they can't complete anything anymore.
Also, probably the same kind of players who were insisting that stam was worthless for everything, and were actively excluding stam players.
So, basically, nothing of value was lost.
I think that's a bit of an oversimplified reaction to his issue. Not saying there isnt some truth to it, but I will say this:
The PVE end game community is healthier when there are more active guilds able to clear content and compete for score. Probably the most extreme example of this was after the pet sorc buff when they were frankly stupid OP for DPS because the rotaiton was so easy. We have never seen so many guilds able to make score runs. Now I think that took it to far because the floor was essentially level with the ceiling, but right now the gap is extremely wide. I would never suggest that our goal should be to eliminate the gap, but I do think narrowing it a bit should be a priority. Things like morrowind sustain changes or murkmire shield changes go the opposite direction. They make the gap wider, which is an issue IMO. Also, it's not like everyone and their moms has all the trial HMs completed. It's a pretty low percent of the playerbase, perhaps a bit too low.6 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I am in three active guilds, nothing changed after nermire, still ton of people and guildmasters are forced to kick some lazy heads every week from those who make zero contribution to a guild.
Anyway simultaneously several hundreds are online every evening, I may tp anywhere, woohoo!1 -
RebornV3x✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Xbox One NA feels dead and A lot of people seem angry at the nerfs this is definitely Morrowind 2.0 for many people and a lot of long timer players are checking out the open beta of Black Desert Online which unlike Tera and Skyforge is one of the top 5MMOs out there on PC
yup, all of my gc's are completely dead
I had to leave 1 or 2 guilds the guild masters left and now I can't find anyone good enough to beat vet trials, DLC dungeons, or the new Blackrose Prison. PvP is boring and my main mag sorc is garbage and id rather just play other game than reroll I always see the same people in PvP and PvP is at its lowest point population wise.
They killed this game and now that real MMO competition is finally coming to Xbox One in early 2019 (PS4 already has FF14) and the fact that RDR2 is out ESO is going to be dead soon this game has been on life support since 2.2 the only people that will be playing ESO in 2019 are the die hard Elder Scrolls fans and most of them are waiting on Elder Scrolls 6 anyhow.
Translation, you ran in a guild filled with people who never really learned to play the content, and now that the broken defense buff is gone, they can't complete anything anymore.
Also, probably the same kind of players who were insisting that stam was worthless for everything, and were actively excluding stam players.
So, basically, nothing of value was lost.
your only half right most of those 2 guilds were trash only about a dozen or so were any good in both guilds they wern't the best players Ive ever seen but we had no problem beating Vet craglorn trials, VCR and VAS the ones that were good left and yes they were mostly mag players
Xbox One - NA GT: RebornV3x
I also play on PC from time to time but I just wanna be left alone on there so sorry.1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »You are a special kind of stupid if you believe any dev that said making shields critable or having resistance effect them was for PVE reasons. PVE enemies don't crit, nor do they have weapon or spell pen!
Shields were already at a strength of ~50% of player hp in PvP. My hardened is/was ~43% of my max hp. Health cap change was for pve.
Certainly. When they changed shields, they made 3 fundamental changes. Lets take them one at a time.
First, you can now crit against shields. This is 100% a nerf in PVP, and a pretty big one at that. It is meaningless in PVE, as enemies cant crit against you in PVE.
Second, they made resistances apply to shields. This is a mixed bag in PVP. If you build for a lot of resistances, the shields are actually stronger, but you have likely made other sacrifices in your build. If you do not build for resistances, your shields are actually weaker than they were before against anyone stacking penetration, which is a lot of the PVP population. For your average light armor magic user, it amounts to moderate nerf in PVP.
In PVE, its a buff. Since PVE enemies dont have a weapon/spell pen stat, your shields are stronger with any amount of resistance you might have then they where before because last patch, a shields resistance was a big fat zero.
Third, They capped shields at 40/50% health. This is a nerf in both PVE and PVP. The nerf is most noticeable to a glass cannon, AKA a PVE DPS. In PVP, it does amount to a slight nerf for most builds, but it's really not much of an issue. Shifting a bit from magic into health pretty much makes it a moot point.
So when the devs say they want to make PVE healers feel useful, you have to look at what the did. Only the third change has anything to do with that. The first two changes constitute an overall nerf to PVP (nothing to do with their stated goal), and a PVE buff (contrary to their stated goal).
TLDR: What the devs did to shields, and why they said they did it, just dont add up.
5 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »You are a special kind of stupid if you believe any dev that said making shields critable or having resistance effect them was for PVE reasons. PVE enemies don't crit, nor do they have weapon or spell pen!
Well, I'm gonna reply to this in the same way..
You're a special kind of stupid if you think the devs making the shields cap at half health while applying it AFTER battle-spirit was for PVP reasons. PVP shields were already around half health on most builds...
Now that's out of the way, lets be objective...
Dev's stated that they wanted shielders to have to invest in defence. Their implementation shows that they have done this for both PVE and PVP.
So to that note, they made them be affected by resists in both arenas. Smallish change - in isolation a buff to both PVE and PVP shields. For PVP - as impen is a key part of building for defence - they made them crittable too - and impacted by impen. This is a substantial nerf to PVP shields.
They also effectively said that for PVE, they didn't want mag classes to have health bars that didn't move (to give healers more of a role) - so they capped the shields based on health.. (also fitting in with their main objective of wanting shielders to invest in defence - health in this case). But they realised this would destroy shields in PVP - so made this a (previously unheard of) post-battle-spirit limit. The result being that PVP shields on a balance build aren't really much smaller at all - but PVE shields get hammered.
The point is - the only change the PVE guys are complaining about is the shield-cap. As that's the only change that really affects PVE - then it stands to reason that the either the devs are completely incompetent - or the change was only really intended to affect PVE... But since they stated that was their intention (we want healers to have more of a role) - I can only infer that their intention was to impact PVE in this way.
TL;DR, 2 different changes - one aimed at PVP, one at PVE. Blaming PVP for the PVE change is just dumb.
I dont believe I did that.
What I said was that the driving point behind these changed was represented by the devs as being largely PVE driven, but 2/3rds of the changes they made had nothing to do with that.
0 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »You are a special kind of stupid if you believe any dev that said making shields critable or having resistance effect them was for PVE reasons. PVE enemies don't crit, nor do they have weapon or spell pen!
Shields were already at a strength of ~50% of player hp in PvP. My hardened is/was ~43% of my max hp. Health cap change was for pve.
Certainly. When they changed shields, they made 3 fundamental changes. Lets take them one at a time.
First, you can now crit against shields. This is 100% a nerf in PVP, and a pretty big one at that. It is meaningless in PVE, as enemies cant crit against you in PVE.
Second, they made resistances apply to shields. This is a mixed bag in PVP. If you build for a lot of resistances, the shields are actually stronger, but you have likely made other sacrifices in your build. If you do not build for resistances, your shields are actually weaker than they were before against anyone stacking penetration, which is a lot of the PVP population. For your average light armor magic user, it amounts to moderate nerf in PVP.
In PVE, its a buff. Since PVE enemies dont have a weapon/spell pen stat, your shields are stronger with any amount of resistance you might have then they where before because last patch, a shields resistance was a big fat zero.
Third, They capped shields at 40/50% health. This is a nerf in both PVE and PVP. The nerf is most noticeable to a glass cannon, AKA a PVE DPS. In PVP, it does amount to a slight nerf for most builds, but it's really not much of an issue. Shifting a bit from magic into health pretty much makes it a moot point.
So when the devs say they want to make PVE healers feel useful, you have to look at what the did. Only the third change has anything to do with that. The first two changes constitute an overall nerf to PVP (nothing to do with their stated goal), and a PVE buff (contrary to their stated goal).
TLDR: What the devs did to shields, and why they said they did it, just dont add up.
The second point is a pure buff for PvP, I don't see how you can see it as a nerf.
Minalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.0 -
An_An✭✭✭Judging by the noticeably decreasing pop especially in PvP, I’D say ZOS needs to do something very soon to incentivize people to play. New expansions packs and DLCs just aren’t going to cut it.
These things have an exponential decay to them. The more people leave, the less I am interested in playing this game. I’ve already significantly reduced my playing time because it just doesn’t seem fun.
And this is all because of unnecessary balance changes. Everything was fine before. All classes were the best at launch. ZOS’s balance philosophy of homogenizing is incorrect. Class diversity is what makes a game fun to play. Right now, most people are not interested in PvP because homogenous classes leads to the creation of a meta.
Which is why I find it ironic when meta-haters call for nerfs to certain classes. Those things are more related than you’d think.6 -
Narvuntien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Were you in a Sorcerer only guild?
Look I have 5 characters (one of each class) so I haven't played my sorcerer since murkmire (because the nerfs killed her, to overload specifically not the shields although I haven't played her so I don't know) but I have been playing my Stamden instead because she got a HUGE buff.
Perhaps you should have multi characters of different classes and then just play the one that was most recently buffed because pretty much everything gets nerfed eventually, such is the nature of games where balance is an ongoing process and not locked in from the start of the game.
I think the balance team is slow to act and often seems to get pulled in two different directions or nerf one thing and another at the same time withing working out which is the correct nerf and just nerf both. There is also a problem of just admitting they were wrong about something and undoing it. I don't think they are perfect by any means (I think they are understaffed).
But shields were extremely strong and I mean in lower difficulty content, not the hardest content. People soloing dungeons people just standing in the red and never learning they are supposed to move because they pop a shield and never even feel the damage. People never even considering bringing a healer to a dungeon. This is the content most people do and so it actually affects most players, I guess its time to learn to heal. It is assumed that for any serious high-level player they actually enjoy change because that means they have to relearn to l2p and l2p is what they like to do.
PVP you have a lot more hp and a lot less mag typically anyway as others pointed out. I have lost count how many times they have "killed my build" in PVP and I just kept adapting. A drop in PVP always happens when new PVE content comes out because people go play the PVE content. Of course balance changes will also mean that players will have to go farm new gear for thier characters.0 -
Ramber✭✭✭✭Sometimes I feel like I must be doing something terribly wrong because I feel like I'm the only PVE MagSorc that NEVER used shield. I just found it clunky in my rotation so developed a play style just relying on Powersurge. I can do any endgame content and solo almost all worldbosses. If I do meet content where I die, I swap in Matriarch for heals. I'm not saying my play style is/was better than using preMurkmire shields just that I personally never used shields. I appreciate this only goes for PVE but I really don't think these changes have been as apocalyptic as people are saying. The only big, game-busting change for me in this last patch has been the lag, bugging and disconnecting!! I'm certainly not wanting to trivialize the concerns of other MagSorcs I'm just saying that there are other viable options for how you play. Or has this MagSorc apocalypse just purely been a PVP affliction??
I never used a shield in PvE either, not even in vMA. just didnt need them.2 -
DoobZ69✭✭✭✭"Help, the shields that are in the game are no longer worth using. Please fix this problem of shields that I was using and am not longer able to because they're now broken."
"Those shields in the game that are there for use for the thing you were using them for. Hey, I have a solution to your problem of not being able to use the thing that is there to be used. Don't use it!"
The IQ level on these boards is just dropping and dropping since nerfmire patch got announced I swear....
Now as far as whether its a buff or a nerf.
In PvE ,If your shield size got smaller, and the change is bigger than the effect of your resistances now added to them, then the change to YOU is a nerf.
In PvE, If the shield size did not change then YOU have received a buff because your shield now has added resistances to it.
In PvP, if your shield size has not changed, your shield can now be Crit so unless you have full Critical Resistance you have received a nerf.
In PvP, if your shield size has not changed, against non-penetration opponents you have received a buff because the default 100 penetration has been removed.
In PvP, if your shield size has not changed, against high penetration opponents you have received either a buff or no change depending on how much resistance you actually have. If the penetration of the enemy is higher than your resistances then there is no change from a previous set up. If the resistances are higher than the penetration of the enemy then you have received a buff.
In PvP, if your shield got smaller, then the trade-off is in the resistances, whether they are higher than the enemy's penetration or not. If they're not then its a nerf. If they are then by how much. If, using simple percentages as an example, your shield size is 10% smaller, but your resistances are now mitigating 20% more damage then you have an 8% buff in damage reduction (0.9*1.2=108 total damage). If your shield is 10% smaller but you are mitigating 5% more damage then you have a 5.5% damage reduction nerf (0.9*1.05=94.5).
In PvP, if your shield got smaller, and you have no Impenetrable resistances, and your resistances are very low compared to the enemy penetration ratings then you are up *** creek. Churr1 -
BrianLovesLisa✭✭✭✭✭PVE nerfs often happen as a result of Zos internal stats indicating balance issues.
These were specifically to give PVE healers more of a role.
Do you think the Devs themselves don't want their game to be balanced?
Well maybe if the idiots at Zeni would not nerf healers right and left to make them have a more challenging role instead of face rolling the keyboard to heal people, other classes would not need a nerf to make the healers for even more Special.1 -
Armatesz✭✭✭✭✭I run a heavy magplar, performance wise after murkmire my shields for the most part are in fact stronger. But even though they are stronger I have a very glaring problem... puncturing sweeps glitch is by far the worst right now. This needs to be fixed, can't attack for 2 seconds after using this ability is not nice at all. It isn't due to lag as no other ability locks, so current standing I know I def can't take my heavy magplar into pvp like this. I am both stronger and weaker at the same time, but imo because of this glitch I am weaker.Ärmätèsz
Xbox NA
Guildless (by choice)0 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I run a heavy magplar, performance wise after murkmire my shields for the most part are in fact stronger. But even though they are stronger I have a very glaring problem... puncturing sweeps glitch is by far the worst right now. This needs to be fixed, can't attack for 2 seconds after using this ability is not nice at all. It isn't due to lag as no other ability locks, so current standing I know I def can't take my heavy magplar into pvp like this. I am both stronger and weaker at the same time, but imo because of this glitch I am weaker.
Yeah, shields will be stronger than last patch on builds that only have them as a supplementary defence rather than a main defence, since those builds are already using high resists and impen.
In their default state, on builds that rely on them as a main defence (ie, last patch's sorc' builds), they are much weaker.
But they can be made to have an equivalent strength to last patch by sacrificing other stats.. and even exceed it with greater sacrifices.
Fwiw, my sorc' this patch runs a 2k smaller shield but with 12k more resists and 2k more crit resists than before - and has to run that to be able to deliver that telegraphed burst without dying. Getting those kind of extra stats can only come from giving up stats from elsewhere . Quite a bit of them. But it gives an equivalent shield strength to before, only now I also have better unshielded survivability.
So from a PvP perspective, the shield changes only really translates to a damage nerf for sorcs (which were already wanting on that front anyway)..
I'm not sure if the Devs were aware of that or of they expected it, perhaps they did, and buffs will be coming for the offensive toolkit? Who knows...Minalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Girl_Number8 wrote: »
Last I checked? Yep.
Man, just the idea of BDO on a console is hilarious. Given, you know, you're supposed to leave it running in the background while you do other things.
I don't know. I did enjoy not standing in place and slamming down DoTs quite a bit. There's far more mobility in BDO, while ESO celebrates snares.
Also, the one costume we got for the community event was immediately TEN TIMES better than anything here in ESO combined.
Make fun of BDO, but it's the first true competitor for ESO, and it might show in the numbers.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »You are a special kind of stupid if you believe any dev that said making shields critable or having resistance effect them was for PVE reasons. PVE enemies don't crit, nor do they have weapon or spell pen!
Shields were already at a strength of ~50% of player hp in PvP. My hardened is/was ~43% of my max hp. Health cap change was for pve.
Certainly. When they changed shields, they made 3 fundamental changes. Lets take them one at a time.
First, you can now crit against shields. This is 100% a nerf in PVP, and a pretty big one at that. It is meaningless in PVE, as enemies cant crit against you in PVE.
Second, they made resistances apply to shields. This is a mixed bag in PVP. If you build for a lot of resistances, the shields are actually stronger, but you have likely made other sacrifices in your build. If you do not build for resistances, your shields are actually weaker than they were before against anyone stacking penetration, which is a lot of the PVP population. For your average light armor magic user, it amounts to moderate nerf in PVP.
In PVE, its a buff. Since PVE enemies dont have a weapon/spell pen stat, your shields are stronger with any amount of resistance you might have then they where before because last patch, a shields resistance was a big fat zero.
Third, They capped shields at 40/50% health. This is a nerf in both PVE and PVP. The nerf is most noticeable to a glass cannon, AKA a PVE DPS. In PVP, it does amount to a slight nerf for most builds, but it's really not much of an issue. Shifting a bit from magic into health pretty much makes it a moot point.
So when the devs say they want to make PVE healers feel useful, you have to look at what the did. Only the third change has anything to do with that. The first two changes constitute an overall nerf to PVP (nothing to do with their stated goal), and a PVE buff (contrary to their stated goal).
TLDR: What the devs did to shields, and why they said they did it, just dont add up.
The second point is a pure buff for PvP, I don't see how you can see it as a nerf.
@Biro123
I agree that most good players will work it into a buff in terms of shield strength, but they likely made trade offs to do it. That said, it is not necessarily a buff in PVP. It really depends on whom you are fighting. In PVE, it is ALWAYS a buff.
For example, If you have 8k physical resistance and are fighting someone with 10k Phyiscal penetration, before and after the patch, well, you got nerfed. They will do more damage against your shields than last patch. If you have 12k phys resistance and you are fighting someone with 10k Phys penetration, well you got buffed as they will do less damage to you than the previous patch.
Historically, a lot of shield stackers ran very low resistances (whether or not that was okay is perhaps a different debate), and plenty of people stack penetration as their main source of damage (spinner/spriggan, Lover, Passives, CP, etc.). Therefore, most mag sorcs (that's whom we are really talking about here), likely had to do some things to buff their resistances. Maybe they switched up monster sets, reallocated CP, lost a bar to run boundless etc.
If you did nothing to your build, you almost certainly got nerfed in terms of raw shield strength. If you made changes to compensate, well you likely had to make some hard tradeoffs from other areas, and it still depends on whom you are fighting. This is why I call it a mixed bag. It is not simply a "pure buff" as you say.0 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »You are a special kind of stupid if you believe any dev that said making shields critable or having resistance effect them was for PVE reasons. PVE enemies don't crit, nor do they have weapon or spell pen!
Shields were already at a strength of ~50% of player hp in PvP. My hardened is/was ~43% of my max hp. Health cap change was for pve.
Certainly. When they changed shields, they made 3 fundamental changes. Lets take them one at a time.
First, you can now crit against shields. This is 100% a nerf in PVP, and a pretty big one at that. It is meaningless in PVE, as enemies cant crit against you in PVE.
Second, they made resistances apply to shields. This is a mixed bag in PVP. If you build for a lot of resistances, the shields are actually stronger, but you have likely made other sacrifices in your build. If you do not build for resistances, your shields are actually weaker than they were before against anyone stacking penetration, which is a lot of the PVP population. For your average light armor magic user, it amounts to moderate nerf in PVP.
In PVE, its a buff. Since PVE enemies dont have a weapon/spell pen stat, your shields are stronger with any amount of resistance you might have then they where before because last patch, a shields resistance was a big fat zero.
Third, They capped shields at 40/50% health. This is a nerf in both PVE and PVP. The nerf is most noticeable to a glass cannon, AKA a PVE DPS. In PVP, it does amount to a slight nerf for most builds, but it's really not much of an issue. Shifting a bit from magic into health pretty much makes it a moot point.
So when the devs say they want to make PVE healers feel useful, you have to look at what the did. Only the third change has anything to do with that. The first two changes constitute an overall nerf to PVP (nothing to do with their stated goal), and a PVE buff (contrary to their stated goal).
TLDR: What the devs did to shields, and why they said they did it, just dont add up.
The second point is a pure buff for PvP, I don't see how you can see it as a nerf.
@Biro123
I agree that most good players will work it into a buff in terms of shield strength, but they likely made trade offs to do it. That said, it is not necessarily a buff in PVP. It really depends on whom you are fighting. In PVE, it is ALWAYS a buff.
For example, If you have 8k physical resistance and are fighting someone with 10k Phyiscal penetration, before and after the patch, well, you got nerfed. They will do more damage against your shields than last patch. If you have 12k phys resistance and you are fighting someone with 10k Phys penetration, well you got buffed as they will do less damage to you than the previous patch.
Historically, a lot of shield stackers ran very low resistances (whether or not that was okay is perhaps a different debate), and plenty of people stack penetration as their main source of damage (spinner/spriggan, Lover, Passives, CP, etc.). Therefore, most mag sorcs (that's whom we are really talking about here), likely had to do some things to buff their resistances. Maybe they switched up monster sets, reallocated CP, lost a bar to run boundless etc.
If you did nothing to your build, you almost certainly got nerfed in terms of raw shield strength. If you made changes to compensate, well you likely had to make some hard tradeoffs from other areas, and it still depends on whom you are fighting. This is why I call it a mixed bag. It is not simply a "pure buff" as you say.
That's not how it works. You cannot 'overpen'.
If I have 8k resists, and my opponent has 10k pen - the net result is 0 resists - not negative 2k resists.
And 0 resists is exactly the same as what shields had last patch.
So on that point alone (crits being a separate point) - its either the same (unlikely in most cases) or a buff.Edited by Biro123 on November 12, 2018 5:37PMMinalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.1
