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Solution for fake tank, dps or heals.

  • Thrain
    Thrain
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    Enemoriana wrote: »
    Thrain wrote: »
    In normal words:
    Tank should work
    Heal should work
    Dds should deal the same dmg as tank while tanking and heal while healing so they dont have to work too much.
    When the dds only deal 25% dmg each it sounds like the sound for the vote to kick the dds
    If you want to call yourself dd then deal more dmg than the tank and heal
    Thank you

    Works only in groups of same level and skill and only if tank and healer is really needed.
    Highlevel tank/heal in normal dungeons with lowlevel DDs will easily do more damage without dd doing anything wrong. Just because of cp/sets/skills and no need in his main function. Highlevel tank running forward? Nothing left for you, dd! Highlevel fake tank running forward?

    Any % is not only about if this player is good enough - it's about what all members of group are doing.

    Ofc im talking about vet dungeons otherwhise it wouldnt make any sense and i wouldnt queue with my real tank^^
    As i said in older threads for normal dungeons ill queue with my dps as tank so there is no need to judge player with lower lvl by their dps or skill
  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
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    There is no true solution to this problem, just minor remedies that'll help to stem the tide a bit.

    First off, ZOS needs to make all classes unique in their methodology for Tanking/Healing/DPS while also making them balanced and interesting to play, instead of nerfing and killing off playstyles and making each class a carbon copy of one another with no difference other than what utility they offer their group. They need to make each class have a niche with their Tank/Heal/DPS playstyle and adjust sets to fit these niches in meaningful ways. I had actually suggested this awhile back but what if, on top of each class being able to perform their selected role in its own way, we had gear set that were better suited for certain classes to Tank/Heal with, without being completely useless for other class/role combinations. It would require a complete reworking of set bonuses but that shouldn't be a problem considering the sheer amount of lackluster sets in the game anyways.

    Going by the premise that:
    DK = Mitigation Tank
    Templar = Heal Tank
    NB = Debuff Tank
    Sorc = Shield Tank
    Warden = Health Tank

    So, for example, let's rework Eternal Yokeda to be functionally good for a Health Based Tank.

    (2) Adds 4% Healing Taken
    (3) Gain Minor Aegis at all times, reducing your damage taken from Dungeon and Trial Monsters by 5%.
    (4) Adds 1206 Max Health
    (5) When your health is above 50%, nearby allies (capped at 6) are granted Minor Courage, increasing their Weapon/Spell Damage by 179. When your Health drops below 50%, nearby allies are granted a Damage Shield equal to 30% of your max health and gain Major Heroism while the Damage Shield remains.
    (5) Adds 1206 Max Health

    This rework would allow all tanks to run it but something like a High Health Warden Tank would potentially get the most mileage out of it because, not only would it be much more difficult for them to get below the 50% range and lose the Minor Courage Buff but if it does fall below that threshold, the damage shield it grants would be much higher on them than on other Tanks. This is sort of an extreme example since clearly the entire scenario would be reliant on Health Tanks being viable things in the 1st place, which they currently aren't but it's just a possible suggestion to help with diversity. Also, let's face it Eternal Yokeda could use a rework anyways since it's just so bad :disappointed:

    After that, they need to really cement all the finer points of ESO's combat into the player base. Mechanics like bashing, taunting, etc, all really need to be better emphasized because ZOS hasn't really introduced those concepts thru basic gameplay, going with the assumption that players are coming from an MMO background and just know these things beforehand, which has proven disastrous to say the least. While I would like a tutorial to be added to the Undaunted, I feel it needs more than just a simple 1 off introduction. Maybe they could integrate it as a part of Overworld content by returning Quest bosses like Faolchu and Doshia to their former glory as actual threats that required some level of skill to take down, instead of these debilitated enemies that poss so little threat that they die at the drop of a hat. Bashing, dodging and blocking their attacks used to be so important but nowadays, they just die without anyone learning anything and it's negatively impacted the community as a a whole. Normal Dungeons could use a similar touch up if we're being perfectly honest about finding a solution to Fake Tanks/Healers/DPS.

    Finally, there needs to be more incentive for real Tanks/Healers/DPS to run dungeons via Group Finder. While the XP and mailed items are nice-ish, they don't incentivize players to actually perform their roles and just want to run thru a dungeon as quickly as possible. Why not add something like a recommendation system to players for doing a dungeon run? At the end of each run, players can recommend someone in the group and that person will receive a recommendation slip that they can turn in to purchase Mounts, Furniture plans, Mats, and random loot bags from specific dungeons, similar to the PvP region bags. To prevent abuse, make it so that premade groups can't vote for people already in their group prior to queuing up for a random.

    While none of these changes are foolproof methods of permanently dealing with Fake Tanks/Healers/DPS it might at least help a little bit, not to mention that if these ideas got implemented, you're looking at some true class diversity for once, a slightly elevated floor for newbie characters, and a loot box system to get that damn piece of gear for X dungeon that never drops (*cough* BSW Inferno *cough*), helping with the tedium of grinding the dungeon for hours on end with nothing to show for it.
    Argonian forever
  • Ramber
    Ramber
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    I suggested somewhere a role cooldown that would fix a lot of this. If you had to wait 24 hours to change your role you might think twice Qing as a tank or healer if that was the only role you could queue as for 24 hours.

    Or simply lock all roles. make a tank a tank, dps a dps, healer a healer.... put a lock on em and pay a fee to change them like we pay for a respec but only after they waited 24 hours or even 30 days lol.

  • Enemoriana
    Enemoriana
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    Ramber wrote: »
    I suggested somewhere a role cooldown that would fix a lot of this. If you had to wait 24 hours to change your role you might think twice Qing as a tank or healer if that was the only role you could queue as for 24 hours.

    Or simply lock all roles. make a tank a tank, dps a dps, healer a healer.... put a lock on em and pay a fee to change them like we pay for a respec but only after they waited 24 hours or even 30 days lol.

    What about pre-made groups? Multiple runs with leaving/new members.
    Or people who can easily put on another sets and skills and really play different roles.

    I'll set tank when doing random normal with 10 lvl friend (because we will 100% get dungeon I can easily do solo, and that's much faster then queue as 2 dd); later, with another, highlevel, friend/friend's character I can set heal because some tank from guild joined us (I'll put twilight on skill bar if somebody will die too often, and it'll be enough); and later I can queue alone as dd, if I want more dungeons. Three different roles in one day - and nobody is unhappy.
    With cooldown? Fake tank or no more dungeons.

    "Real" fake tanks? Will just always be fake tanks.
    PC EU, @Enemoriana. Ru.
    Houses: all sets crafting hub at Rosewine Retreat inn room, Erstwhile Sanctuary as actual Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary, Hunter's Glade as werewolf tavern (downstairs), Strident Springs Demesne as adventurer's house.
    Wishlist: character slots, minstrel personality, molten war torte and white gold war torte recipes, Willowpond Haven, Kor and Hildegard houseguests, crown crates.
  • mastoeb
    mastoeb
    What has to be "fixed" is the root of the fake tank problem

    almost alll suggested solution completly ignore the cause of fake tanks

    any battlespirit like buff or penaltis for not fullfilled arebitrary requiremends would result in the dungeon finder being dead or que times exploding even further

    - Giving healers or tanks a % dmg debuff would completly screw grps where the healer contributing to dps is the difference between clear and disband
    - Tanks and healer dont need more mitigation or healing done in most cases so those stats would be useless
    - penaltising based on performance compared to your grp would lead to high inconsistencies a player that is getting full reward in one grp might get nothing in the next run and doenst understand why (also alot of other flaws which ppl already pointed out)


    same with role locking

    - some ppl have characters that can fullfill multiple roles with switching gear/cp why punish those?
    - what about grps that are fine with running 3-4 dds becouse they are premade?




    So why do we have fake tanks in the first place?

    -> long que times for dds, so dd player que as tank role to not have to wait

    Why do we have long que times for dds?

    -> becouse there is not enough tanks using the dungeon finder compared with dds (and healer)

    Why is that the case

    -> tanks not wanting to use dungeon finder due to low quality of dds in them and it being impossible to carry a bad pug as a tank in alot of dungeons while carrying easy vdungeons as a dd or heal is no problem

    -> tanking not being appealing for alot of players

    -> ZoS gutting unique tank playstiles and nerfing tanks over the last 2 years frequently



    What can be done


    1)

    - There are suggestions for dps tests with archivments to be able to que for vdungeons in other threats (aka a solo instance with a target dummy that you have to beat ) if this is rly a good solution i am unsure of


    2)

    Bring back saptank/ ultgentankbuilds for nightblades and while at it try to intruduce more unique tank playstile for the other classes in the game.
    They dont have to be competitive in trial scenarios but stuff like the old saptank was unique fun and engaging.
    If stuff like saptank, icetank etc would actually be workable with it would go a long way in increasing the overall population of tankplayers in dungeonfinder
    Also reverting some of the pve tank nerfs that happened over the last 2 years might be a way to make the whole tanking experience alot more fun and bring more players to try tanking


    3)

    Bandaid solution to relief the que atleast a bit


    Give the option to que for 4 dd runs for those that want to do it that way
    This would take dds out of the regular que making times faster for everyone
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