Solution for fake tank, dps or heals.

lokulin · November 2018

Mr_Walker wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

Enemoriana wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

You are right, this system does make it harder on friends that may want to be carried to be leveled or for other reasons. This is why dungeon rewards might also need to be split in to 3 or 4 categories based on difficulty. Normal non DLC, vet non DLC, normal DLC and vet DLC with a performance modifier based on whether the dungeon is also done in hard mode, no death, speed run or a combination of all three.

It make it harder for lowlevel and casual, first of all. That's very, very bad. That will look much like elitism - "get max level and armor, or that's nothing here for you". Forcing people to get max level and max numbers instead of learning how game works is bad idea. And, yes, there will be even more dd - as easiest role. But that's the reason of fake tanks/healers!

This will cause a lot of new problems, but will not solve any old.

The thing is that low level and casual players are 1) not doing vet DLC HM dungeons and 2) are not getting a good experience if one max CP player is carrying them through fungal grotto on normal.

They're learning....

They aren't learning much if everything is dead by the time they get to the fight. 😁 The best learning is probably where they are just not quite as good as the other players but good enough to keep up. In those cases they'd be within the margin of error anyway.

ruengdet2515 · November 2018

I hope you can do that when you are CEO's ZoS

kargen27 · November 2018

lokulin wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

I honestly don't see this as a solution at all. It sounds like arbitrary numbers that don't really understand how roles and mobs work.

*Tanks don't taunt everything. They prioritize. Additionally some damage is random and the tank will never have control of it.
*Dps must each do 25% damage. 2 dps = 50% of damage between the two of them which leaves the other 50% split between the tank and the healer. However, under your numbers, they also have another quota to meet as well.
*Some healers, depending on content, slot damage skills. Competent players usually have some degree of self-heals so a healer is going to help melt through the trash rather than stand around twiddling their thumbs and waiting for someone to need them. But hey, they only did 48.2% healing so oops, sorry, no reward.
*There's no even distribution of skill in this game. Someone will always be better than you. Trying to use random group to then make sure damage dealt is "fair" is never going to work unless you want people to stop to analyze every fight and then adjust accordingly for the next one (hey #2 had 63% last fight - can you stand still and do nothing for a couple seconds so we can get our reward). I don't have time for this. You don't have time for this.

Punishing everyone in the group, for not meeting some random percentage quota, even if the dungeon is completed, is not the answer. In fact, this would likely cause tons more problems. I mean, unless you want people to just not bother at all.

After running hundreds of dungeons these are numbers I feel are close to what even disorganised groups or groups with mismatched players achieve assuming they are playing their role in most dungeons. Am sure ZOS could calculate more accurate figures that would be more suitable.

You are assuming equal skill though. If you get a low level DPS and a high level just looking to burn for the daily reward the low level is out in the cold. Not getting a reward because the other DPS can burn everything would cause low level characters to not want to queue at all. Just to throw something else in the mix. Sometimes a healer will find themselves in a group where providing buffs helps the group much more than healing them does. Sometimes the healer helps the group more by jumping in with DPS. Your idea locks them into healing when there really is no need to heal. Some Warden tanks can work enough heals into their rotation that a healer can be all about buffs and DPS. Taking that away takes away some interesting builds.
I've run normal dungeons on my healer where I had aggro on the boss for the entire fight kept everybody alive and did 68% of the damage. Wouldn't want a run like that every time but sometimes they are fun. Wouldn't be a good thing if the other members of the group didn't get full rewards simply because they are new to the game or working out rotations on new characters.
Fake tanks are a problem but I don't feel your solution is a good one. I think it would cause more problems than it fixes.

MartiniDaniels · November 2018

DPS should do at least 30% if other does 50%, and at least 50% if other is fake

Nurable · November 2018

If ZOS code in a system that prevents fake tanks and healers, we'll just get much longer queues.

The issue needs to be addressed at the root. That is, there are many more dd's than tanks and healers. If they can figure that out and find a solution, the fake tank/healer problem would disappear. I have two healers, two tanks and a few dd's. I get long queues when queueing as my healers or dd's and less than 1 min when on my tanks. This suggests there aren't enough tanks. In my opinion, tanking is boring (queue the flaming) and that's why so few want to play the role.

ZOS should speak to people that don't have a tank and find out why they don't. Then work to rectify those comments or concerns.

richo262 · November 2018

Any 'solution' that seeks to control, or punish, or lower rewards, is just being a nanny.

Ask why fake tanks exist. Solve the why first.

DPS fake tank for either bonus XP or for Pledges.

Trial finder, that doesn't have a 'random' setting, but will award the Dungeon XP for the first trial you run. So to claim the XP, you either run a Random Norm, Random Vet or Trial of your choice.

That would mop up so many DPS players from the que. The thought of a fake tanking for XP would become redundant overnight.

As for pledges, if a trial finder was created, the DPS que for dungeons would be much faster, as many DPS would be off running trials instead.

Finviuswe · November 2018

The solution is swift (and severe) punishment. Very swift

mastoeb · November 2018

1) the "solution" completly ignores the main reason fake tanks exist:

long que times for dds which only happens becouse there are not enough tanks in the que to start with (both becouse there is alot less tank then dd players and becouse tanks mostly refuse to use dungeonfinder due to the quality of dds u can get)

2) 25% dps requirement does more harm then good and wouldnt help combating "fake dds" either

scenario 1:

i decide to que for random normal with 3 friends all endgame gear

i do 55k dps on boss tank 5 healer 5 random dd 15 (lets assume he is a new player maybe not even 160cp)

in that case the grp dps is 80k and while i do 68% of the grp dps the other guy does 18.7% and gets punished

scenario 2:

some1 ques as tank for random vet dungeon gets inti a II or dlc one

he is unlucky and gets potato dps

combined grp dps is 20k (3 tank 5 heal and both dds 6k each)

in this scenario both dds are fine becouse they are above 25% eventho they have aloot less then the second dd in our first scenario

also why 25% for dds?
why should dds have to do only as much dps as tank and healer to count as "real" dds?

D0PAMINE · November 2018

If someone isnt doing their role. Vote kick. If that doesn't work, bounce. Find another group.

Bevik · November 2018

Just add a dungeon like "Battle Spirit", if you choose Healer role tooltip should say healing done +10-15% (or any number you like) but damage done -10-15% (or any number), Tank role -20-30% damage taken from enemies -20-30% damage done to enemies, DPS role +10% damage done to enemies and -20% healing done. Premade groups can choose any role but effects won't apply if you don't have 3 different roles. Problem solved.

Jayman1000 · November 2018

Once again: NO. Your suggestion would completely smash the dynamic fluent role system that is a hallmark of ESO.

What we need instead is custom options in the dungeon finder. You should be able to set your preferences for the type of role and group you want to play. This is the ONLY thing that can alleviate some of the issues with fake roles without destroying dynamic builds and playstyles.

Itzmichi · November 2018

lokulin wrote: »

Make the daily dungeon rewards scale off:

1. Tank must take at least 50% of all dungeon damage.
2. Heals must do at least 50% of all dungeon healing.
3. DPS must do at least 25% of all dungeon damage each.

Show damage taken, damage received and healing done at the end of the dungeon.

For underperforming team members they get only 30% of the daily reward and no transmute stone. Adjust as necessary. This would bring the dungeon queue more in line with battleground rewards. The downside is you could troll other players by denying them rewards but there is at least less incentive to do so vs. just fake tanking and getting the max reward.

Edit after some suggestions:

1. Tank reward is based on taunt/fracture/breach uptime on boss (or bosses).
2. Healer reward reduced to at least 25% of healing.
3. DD must do at least 12.5% of damage (so they can still be carried).
4. Option to ignore role requirements when queueing.
5. Change from punishment to scaling bonus reward for performing role based on criteria (e.g. extra transmute, xp, gold)

These percentages are definitely not possible with a casual group sometimes I'm really happy if the other dd can contribute 10% of damage. 50% of the damage to take for a tank is pretty strange as well there are mechanics which will hit everybody and it happens that you can't spot everything immediately.

Easiest to fix the whole issue would be players who actually want to improve in this game and some kind of mentoring program to show them the way how to actually do it and accomplish things.

Rungar · November 2018

the base dps ratios between the roles are way off. Until they fix that youll have all the problems associated with it.

fake tanks
no tanks
no need for tanks
fake healers
no need for healers

dps have too much potential and variance 5k-50k. Tanks have too little potential 1-5k. Healers are not so bad and only need some incentives to do a little extra dps.

ideally it should be tank 7-10k, healer 10-15k and dmg dealer 15-35k. A loose 1:1.5:3.

good luck fixing this.

Salvas_Aren · November 2018

lokulin wrote: »

Make the daily dungeon rewards scale off:

1. Tank must take at least 50% of all dungeon damage.
2. Heals must do at least 50% of all dungeon healing.
3. DPS must do at least 25% of all dungeon damage each.

Show damage taken, damage received and healing done at the end of the dungeon.

For underperforming team members they get only 30% of the daily reward and no transmute stone. Adjust as necessary. This would bring the dungeon queue more in line with battleground rewards. The downside is you could troll other players by denying them rewards but there is at least less incentive to do so vs. just fake tanking and getting the max reward.

Edit after some suggestions:

1. Tank reward is based on taunt/fracture/breach uptime on boss (or bosses).
2. Healer reward reduced to at least 25% of healing.
3. DD must do at least 12.5% of damage (so they can still be carried).
4. Option to ignore role requirements when queueing.
5. Change from punishment to scaling bonus reward for performing role based on criteria (e.g. extra transmute, xp, gold)

LoL. Just LoL.

Some DDs have good sustain, so the healer would be punished for runnig with really good DDs?

In opposition, both DDs are required to do 25 to 50% of the damage in total? Wow!

Not to mention that some ppl give a steaming pile for the rewards. I do raids for the gear and the keys. Why not take away the final boss drop or the second key from me?

Worst idea ever.

kargen27 · November 2018

Bevik wrote: »

Just add a dungeon like "Battle Spirit", if you choose Healer role tooltip should say healing done +10-15% (or any number you like) but damage done -10-15% (or any number), Tank role -20-30% damage taken from enemies -20-30% damage done to enemies, DPS role +10% damage done to enemies and -20% healing done. Premade groups can choose any role but effects won't apply if you don't have 3 different roles. Problem solved.

No that just creates different problems. You throw hybrid builds right out the window. A player that queues as a fake tank isn't going to care about the DPS penalty. They queue as tank to cut in line. If they cared about anything but getting into the dungeon fast they wouldn't be queuing as tanks. Healers tend to over heal anyway so the healing bonus does nothing. Healers work buffs and DPS in their rotation when they can. Your idea kills that.

Fake tanks would still be a problem because they wouldn't care about the penalty and everyone else would suffer.

NordSwordnBoard · November 2018

Vote kick

Bladerunner1 · November 2018

lokulin wrote: »

Make the daily dungeon rewards scale off:

1. Tank must take at least 50% of all dungeon damage.

ESO tanks don't necessarily take the most damage, there's no AOE taunt. DD's can take more damage when facing a swarm of adds, and they have less mitigation so the damage taken is higher.

Tanks do take the heaviest hits, however frequent or infrequent those heavy hits come. That's pretty much all the tank role is about in ESO, the rest is whatever support a player decides to provide with their tank.

Bevik · November 2018

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

Make the daily dungeon rewards scale off:

1. Tank must take at least 50% of all dungeon damage.

ESO tanks don't necessarily take the most damage, there's no AOE taunt. DD's can take more damage when facing a swarm of adds, and they have less mitigation so the damage taken is higher.

Tanks do take the heaviest hits, however frequent or infrequent those heavy hits come. That's pretty much all the tank role is about in ESO, the rest is whatever support a player decides to provide with their tank.

With PUGs I used to taunt everything but prioritize the big ones or the most dangerous ones. If I'm with people I know then trash mobs are not an issue as they die from AOE.

oxygen_thief · November 2018

i propose to make a magic button which will give 100k of experience once per day without need to run a dungeon.

Radiance · November 2018

Fake News!!!

Ugh... KICK them and move on with your life!

We need a solution for these "Fake" threads...

VaranisArano · November 2018

Radiance wrote: »

Fake News!!!

Ugh... KICK them and move on with your life!

We need a solution for these "Fake" threads...

Report them as duplicates of existing topics, since they usually are, and move on with your life?

drkfrontiers · November 2018

Don't do random dungeons.

LapisLazuli99 · November 2018

I feel like its a very difficult issue to fix. what if a high dps is "fake" tanking but does so much damage he causes the other dps to loose rewards? and as others stated some groupds of friends want to run 4 dps.

While i kinda hate people who knowing lie about their role type im also mostly a dps and understand why alot of them feel like they dont have a realistic alternative.

Thrain · November 2018

lokulin wrote: »

Make the daily dungeon rewards scale off:

1. Tank must take at least 50% of all dungeon damage.
2. Heals must do at least 50% of all dungeon healing.
3. DPS must do at least 25% of all dungeon damage each.

Show damage taken, damage received and healing done at the end of the dungeon.

For underperforming team members they get only 30% of the daily reward and no transmute stone. Adjust as necessary. This would bring the dungeon queue more in line with battleground rewards. The downside is you could troll other players by denying them rewards but there is at least less incentive to do so vs. just fake tanking and getting the max reward.

Edit after some suggestions:

1. Tank reward is based on taunt/fracture/breach uptime on boss (or bosses).
2. Healer reward reduced to at least 25% of healing.
3. DD must do at least 12.5% of damage (so they can still be carried).
4. Option to ignore role requirements when queueing.
5. Change from punishment to scaling bonus reward for performing role based on criteria (e.g. extra transmute, xp, gold)

In normal words:
Tank should work
Heal should work
Dds should deal the same dmg as tank while tanking and heal while healing so they dont have to work too much.
When the dds only deal 25% dmg each it sounds like the sound for the vote to kick the dds
If you want to call yourself dd then deal more dmg than the tank and heal
Thank you

SteveCampsOut · November 2018

Colecovision wrote: »

Fake tanks are a nasty symptom and problems should be resolved at their root cause. The problem is long lines and if fake tanks are successfully removed, it will get worse. To reduce the line they need to:

1) allow people to queue with the option for first 4 players available, regardless of role

2) add the checkbox to opt out of dlc dungeons.

With those two in place more people will get into the right content with the party they want much much faster. It would probably help with cp810s soloing the dungeon in front of low cp teammates as well. cp810s will choose the 1st four available while low cp could ask for a traditional party.

Apparently it's all too much to ask. Those ideas have been around for a long time.

They already have this option and it's broken. It's called Chose a Specific dungeon and still fecking get put into a group that needs your skill set in a dungeon you didn't chose. It happened to me this week.

Enemoriana · November 2018

Thrain wrote: »

In normal words:
Tank should work
Heal should work
Dds should deal the same dmg as tank while tanking and heal while healing so they dont have to work too much.
When the dds only deal 25% dmg each it sounds like the sound for the vote to kick the dds
If you want to call yourself dd then deal more dmg than the tank and heal
Thank you

Works only in groups of same level and skill and only if tank and healer is really needed.
Highlevel tank/heal in normal dungeons with lowlevel DDs will easily do more damage without dd doing anything wrong. Just because of cp/sets/skills and no need in his main function. Highlevel tank running forward? Nothing left for you, dd! Highlevel fake tank running forward?

Any % is not only about if this player is good enough - it's about what all members of group are doing.

idk · November 2018

lokulin wrote: »

Edit after some suggestions:

1. Tank reward is based on taunt/fracture/breach uptime on boss (or bosses).
2. Healer reward reduced to at least 25% of healing.
3. DD must do at least 12.5% of damage (so they can still be carried).
4. Option to ignore role requirements when queueing.
5. Change from punishment to scaling bonus reward for performing role based on criteria (e.g. extra transmute, xp, gold)

1. Even this is flawed. Fracture and breach are not requirements for tanking. Breach is not even part of the base S&B skill or one of it's morphs. Frost staff cannot do both . So taunt is all that can be considered a requirement for tanking.
2. If only requiring 25% of healing from the healer why even bother.

4. if given an option to ignore role requirements when queuing why bother with any of it.

I am not the first to state it but the real option is to kick the fake tank (or healer). If you do not try to kick the fake tank or healer you are enabling and part of the issue.

Zos can only do one thing and that is require a taunt/heal be unlocked and nothing more. They are not going to get into a complicated set of requirements being outlined here.

BTW, they really get annoyed when you kick them. Kicked a fake healer, mostly because they were annoying. It was our random, but they chose it because it was a pledge. Waited until just before the last boss and kicked them. LOL the rage whispers.

BTW, these thread are not going to amount to much. Zos already answered these threads with a stupid response of limiting us to one role when queueing. They are likely not going to take a worse step and add ideas like this.

Jhalin · November 2018

Or tanking could be made interesting and rewarding

Instead of arbitrary requirements that just hamper the existing system

zaria · November 2018

arun_rajputb16_ESO wrote: »

If ZOS code in a system that prevents fake tanks and healers, we'll just get much longer queues.

The issue needs to be addressed at the root. That is, there are many more dd's than tanks and healers. If they can figure that out and find a solution, the fake tank/healer problem would disappear. I have two healers, two tanks and a few dd's. I get long queues when queueing as my healers or dd's and less than 1 min when on my tanks. This suggests there aren't enough tanks. In my opinion, tanking is boring (queue the flaming) and that's why so few want to play the role.

ZOS should speak to people that don't have a tank and find out why they don't. Then work to rectify those comments or concerns.

Problem is worse in ESO because 4 man groups rater than 5 and you have no multiple skill / CP / setup system.
PC has mods who let you change bar and gear.

Merlin13KAGL · November 2018

No
No
and just No.

There does need to be a method of identifying and tagging them. Thereafter, they should only be able to group up with other fakes and enjoy the train wreck they have helped create. Let the problem become the solution.