What about premade groups of 4dd? Normal dungeons, where is no need in real tank or healer? Fake tank, who deals a lot of damage and is running ahead, so dd will have little damage, though there is no his fault? Just lowlevel and new players who will have less dps because of trash armor and no good skills yet opened?

Colecovision wrote: »

1) allow people to queue with the option for first 4 players available, regardless of role

Say what you mean here: Allow people to choose a group of 4 DPS. Do you really want to run a group of 4 tanks? Or 2 healers and 2 DDs?

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2) add the checkbox to opt out of dlc dungeons.

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If you forego the purple reward and settle for the blue.

Colecovision wrote: »

Fake tanks are a nasty symptom and problems should be resolved at their root cause. The problem is long lines and if fake tanks are successfully removed, it will get worse. To reduce the line they need to:

1) allow people to queue with the option for first 4 players available, regardless of role

2) add the checkbox to opt out of dlc dungeons.

With those two in place more people will get into the right content with the party they want much much faster. It would probably help with cp810s soloing the dungeon in front of low cp teammates as well. cp810s will choose the 1st four available while low cp could ask for a traditional party.

Apparently it's all too much to ask. Those ideas have been around for a long time.

Agree with having an opt out of DLC or seperate queue for them. Personally I'm sick of most of the base dungeons so would rather just queue for DLC and still get a reward.

I think the trick to getting more tanks or healers in queue is to make it easier for people to have multiple loadouts on the one character. Personally I would tank far more often if I could just change sets, skills, CP, and attributes easily without having to spend gold and time to do it. And no, running alphagear or superstar doesn't really cut the mustard.

VaranisArano wrote: »

When I'm the tank, which is most of the time, the only thing I really require is heals from the healer and "you aggro it, you can tank it til I get there, and I'm not rushing."

If I'm not the tank, I just want the tank to hold boss aggro. Taunt preferred, because I've only met one guy who could hold boss aggro by DPS alone (and he was squishy AF without my healer).

So in your opinion do you think my proposed solution would work? By the sound of it, it wouldn't negatively affect your gameplay.

VaranisArano wrote: »

When I'm the tank, which is most of the time, the only thing I really require is heals from the healer and "you aggro it, you can tank it til I get there, and I'm not rushing."

I am very proud of the moments when I (as the tank) get kicked from the group by salty max-CP'rs because of this.

Favorite example. Mr I'm-Cp790-and-Super-Pet-Sorc ran ahead in Fungal Grotto I (NORMAL), ran ahead and agrro'd EVERYTHING in the room with the goblin boss, and the healer and I stopped at the edge of the room and watched him get his ass kicked. Was beautiful.

lokulin wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

When I'm the tank, which is most of the time, the only thing I really require is heals from the healer and "you aggro it, you can tank it til I get there, and I'm not rushing."

If I'm not the tank, I just want the tank to hold boss aggro. Taunt preferred, because I've only met one guy who could hold boss aggro by DPS alone (and he was squishy AF without my healer).

So in your opinion do you think my proposed solution would work? By the sound of it, it wouldn't negatively affect your gameplay.

I see a couple of issues.

Your system incentivizes groups that stick together, work together, and play their roles. That's fantastic for guild groups. Its not fantastic for premade groups who know they aren't filling all the roles. That's also not how random groups work, and I don't think adding incentives will help with that.

As a tank, your solution could get very skewed in groups where one player runs ahead and messes with the usual pulls. I also don't have an AOE taunt to ensure aggro is on me, so while I take plenty of damage, I can't prevent damage to the others nor control someone deciding to stand in stupid. Would that account for 50% of damage? Maybe not, it would require testing, but I'd be worrying about, something I never have to do now. Now, I worry about crowd controling mobs, taunting priority mobs, taunting the boss, and block/bash/interrupt their mechanics. This solution incentivizes taunting everything, which is an incredibly inefficient way to tank. Moreover, there are some bosses that can't be taunted - Engine Guardian in particular likes to spread its damage around the whole group.

As a DD, this could get skewed if someone is playing a DPS/Tank or DPS/Healer build. I've been in groups where the healer or tank carried the group with great DPS even though the (leveling) DDs were perfectly adequate to complete the dungeon. Again, the 25% would need testing. Yes, it seems a little silly to think that the nominal Damage Dealers wouldn't be able do 25% of the damage between them if you account for total DPS on all trash mobs, but I'm concerned with leveling players getting shut out, particularly in groups where the tank and healer do more damage than you might expect simply because they are max CP or built to do more damage. I've built a DD/Tank for normal dungeons who would have no problem taking damage and dishing it out that could easily cause percentage problems for lower DPS players If the healer also did decent damage (which many do). However, the big problem here isn't that they have low DPS - because the group CAN complete the content, just slowly. Unless there's an actual DPS check mechanic, I dont think the group should be penalized for low DPS because the penalty is additional time required/times following mechanics.

As a healer, I have no problems with this for healers, since no self heals are going to keep pace with my healing the group. I'd have to AFK to fail that heal check, while buffing, and doing damage. However, that is a problem for premade groups who queue running 1 tank/3 DDs and dont use a healer.

Finally as a player...I dont think this is feasible. On PC we have addons for DPS counters. ZOS doesnt seem to have any interest in adding something like that to the game, let alone a tracker that keeps track of damage done, damage taken, and heals done for an entire dungeon run that could take a long time. How would you handle people dropping in at the last boss for their daily random? This is a clunky way to solve a problem that ultimately comes down to people choosing to play the way they want to.

TLDR: I don't think its feasible or enjoyable.

lokulin wrote: »

Enemoriana wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

Enemoriana wrote: »

What about premade groups of 4dd? Normal dungeons, where is no need in real tank or healer? Fake tank, who deals a lot of damage and is running ahead, so dd will have little damage, though there is no his fault? Just lowlevel and new players who will have less dps because of trash armor and no good skills yet opened?

Fake tank that is running ahead: kick

And if there are two friends? If it affect only lowest level player and is ok for two other? Nobody will kick highlevel who can solo this dungeon only because one unknown for them lowlevel will get smaller reward.
With such system it will be absolutely terrible for lowlevel and/or casual players. It can work only if everybody in group is same level. 3 characters with max cp and one 10 lvl? They get easiest dungeon to do it in few minutes, he gets no normal reward. Not because he is bad - just because they were playing for a longer time!
What will player do if he gets smaller reward most times while doing nothing wrong? High chance he will stop play at all or at least will not return to dungeons until high cp. Do you really want to have a lot of players who is first time in Fungal Grotto at 810 cp? Who doesn't even know how dungeons work, because they had no chance to learn it before?

Sometimes I go to dungeons with friends. I'm not good, but I do about 33% of damage and most part of tanking and healing. Just because of playing more time and having sets (not even top ones)! And we are absolutely ok with normal. I can do many base normal dungeons solo and all of them - with one more player. So even if we are not 4, and take one or two randoms - why anybody must have not full reward, with fake role or not?

If you are going in with friends you could all be set to dps and get the reward if you all did at least 12.5% of the damage.

Yes, I understood idea of no roles for premade group. But that works only if there is group of four. I'm speaking also about groups of three or two, that easily could do dungeons without seeking more, but system of random dungeon force to do it.

Enemoriana wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

Enemoriana wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

Enemoriana wrote: »

What about premade groups of 4dd? Normal dungeons, where is no need in real tank or healer? Fake tank, who deals a lot of damage and is running ahead, so dd will have little damage, though there is no his fault? Just lowlevel and new players who will have less dps because of trash armor and no good skills yet opened?

Fake tank that is running ahead: kick

And if there are two friends? If it affect only lowest level player and is ok for two other? Nobody will kick highlevel who can solo this dungeon only because one unknown for them lowlevel will get smaller reward.
With such system it will be absolutely terrible for lowlevel and/or casual players. It can work only if everybody in group is same level. 3 characters with max cp and one 10 lvl? They get easiest dungeon to do it in few minutes, he gets no normal reward. Not because he is bad - just because they were playing for a longer time!
What will player do if he gets smaller reward most times while doing nothing wrong? High chance he will stop play at all or at least will not return to dungeons until high cp. Do you really want to have a lot of players who is first time in Fungal Grotto at 810 cp? Who doesn't even know how dungeons work, because they had no chance to learn it before?

Sometimes I go to dungeons with friends. I'm not good, but I do about 33% of damage and most part of tanking and healing. Just because of playing more time and having sets (not even top ones)! And we are absolutely ok with normal. I can do many base normal dungeons solo and all of them - with one more player. So even if we are not 4, and take one or two randoms - why anybody must have not full reward, with fake role or not?

If you are going in with friends you could all be set to dps and get the reward if you all did at least 12.5% of the damage.

Yes, I understood idea of no roles for premade group. But that works only if there is group of four. I'm speaking also about groups of three or two, that easily could do dungeons without seeking more, but system of random dungeon force to do it.

Perhaps there needs to be a way of saying "don't fill vacant positions" for these edge cases.

Enemoriana wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

You are right, this system does make it harder on friends that may want to be carried to be leveled or for other reasons. This is why dungeon rewards might also need to be split in to 3 or 4 categories based on difficulty. Normal non DLC, vet non DLC, normal DLC and vet DLC with a performance modifier based on whether the dungeon is also done in hard mode, no death, speed run or a combination of all three.

It make it harder for lowlevel and casual, first of all. That's very, very bad. That will look much like elitism - "get max level and armor, or that's nothing here for you". Forcing people to get max level and max numbers instead of learning how game works is bad idea. And, yes, there will be even more dd - as easiest role. But that's the reason of fake tanks/healers!

This will cause a lot of new problems, but will not solve any old.

The thing is that low level and casual players are 1) not doing vet DLC HM dungeons and 2) are not getting a good experience if one max CP player is carrying them through fungal grotto on normal.

lokulin wrote: »

The thing is that low level and casual players are 1) not doing vet DLC HM dungeons

Do you prefer them to skip normal and go there as soon as they reach 160 cp? Learning should to go from easiest things to hardest. From normal to vet DLC HM.

lokulin wrote: »

and 2) are not getting a good experience if one max CP player is carrying them through fungal grotto on normal.

Sometimes get carrying max CP player is still much better then not doing dungeons at all because of unreasonable reward reduction.

Enemoriana wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

The thing is that low level and casual players are 1) not doing vet DLC HM dungeons

Do you prefer them to skip normal and go there as soon as they reach 160 cp? Learning should to go from easiest things to hardest. From normal to vet DLC HM.

lokulin wrote: »

and 2) are not getting a good experience if one max CP player is carrying them through fungal grotto on normal.

Sometimes get carrying max CP player is still much better then not doing dungeons at all because of unreasonable reward reduction.

Sorry, I don't understand the first point you are making. Why would players skip normal as they progress?

lokulin wrote: »

Enemoriana wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

Perhaps there needs to be a way of saying "don't fill vacant positions" for these edge cases.

If I and some my friend can do it duo, why not take two randoms? If they have high dps, we'll finish faster. If they have low, we'll help them. Everybody is happy.
Not so with your idea.

We don't need any punishment for fake roles. That solves nothing. That's like punish for coughing instead of curing illness. We need something to do with reason of fake roles.
And that is too much dd and too few tanks and healers.
So all we need - is "allow incompatible roles" checkbox.
And happy 4 random dd will go to their normal random dungeons without fake roles, and those who need full roles, will wait for tank and healer.

But this solution allows for 4dd to still get the reward if they want, (with the addition of ignore incompatible roles option) and actively encourages people to tank by rewarding tanking behaviour for those that want it. I could reword my post to the following if rewards are more palatable than "punishment".

Add a performance multiplier on the daily dungeon rewards if:

1. Tank takes at least 50% of all dungeon damage.
2. Heals does at least 50% of all dungeon healing.
3. DPS does at least (50/Ndd)% of all dungeon damage each.

Add an option to ignore incompatible roles.

Lowbies could get a multiplier the same way they get battle scaled.

Do you think people set fake role just because it is funny?
With ignore incompatible roles option there will be no fake role problem. Well, few trolls, maybe, but they also will ignore any consequences.
So option + your idea will punish players, who are new to game or just dungeons (if multiplier is not enough) or old (if too strong).
Just option will be enough.

kargen27 wrote: »

Colecovision wrote: »

Fake tanks are a nasty symptom and problems should be resolved at their root cause. The problem is long lines and if fake tanks are successfully removed, it will get worse. To reduce the line they need to:

1) allow people to queue with the option for first 4 players available, regardless of role

2) add the checkbox to opt out of dlc dungeons.

With those two in place more people will get into the right content with the party they want much much faster. It would probably help with cp810s soloing the dungeon in front of low cp teammates as well. cp810s will choose the 1st four available while low cp could ask for a traditional party.

Apparently it's all too much to ask. Those ideas have been around for a long time.

One might work if instead of first four available it is 4 DPS. Many players have shields and self heals so running a random normal with no tank or healer will work for them. Probably isn't going to happen though because the recent changes in the game were an attempt to bring back the one healer one tank two DPS dynamic to pledges and random dungeons. Seems counter productive to then offer a way out of what they are trying to get back to.

Two is a different issue and has nothing to do with fake tanks or long queues. My thinking is if you opt out of doing the DLCs on random runs then the bonuses for doing the random shouldn't apply. Honestly I don't understand why people are so against doing a DLC dungeon as a random normal. I'm maybe a slightly above average player and with a group around my same skill level we can do DLC normal dungeons. Might take a bit longer but we can do them. When I get in a group that wants to leave because we got a DLC I ask that we at least try first boss then we will know if we have a chance or not. If we quit we are getting 15 minute cool down so might as well try. Those groups end up finishing the dungeon more often than not. Sometimes we don't finish but I don't see that as time wasted, others could feel otherwise.

I think it is just a symptom of not having a fine enough graduation of difficulty. Some people don't queue random vet because the don't want the chance of getting a vet DLC but would love to get fungal grotto or even crypt of hearts. Some people groan when they get vet fungal grotto again because it is too easy for them. I'd argue that vet fungal grotto HM is easier than normal moon hunter keep. It makes no sense anymore the way the dungeons are split up as some veteran dungeons are hardly vet worthy and some normal DLC dungeons are harder than vet!

Enemoriana wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

Enemoriana wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

The thing is that low level and casual players are 1) not doing vet DLC HM dungeons

Do you prefer them to skip normal and go there as soon as they reach 160 cp? Learning should to go from easiest things to hardest. From normal to vet DLC HM.

lokulin wrote: »

and 2) are not getting a good experience if one max CP player is carrying them through fungal grotto on normal.

Sometimes get carrying max CP player is still much better then not doing dungeons at all because of unreasonable reward reduction.

Sorry, I don't understand the first point you are making. Why would players skip normal as they progress?

Because that will break normal gradual progress.
And if you are already highlevel - why do normals, why not go to vet, it's intended to do on such level!

Oh, I think I understand what you mean now. No I don't want people to skip normal dungeons. I think we may be talking at cross purposes here.

heaven13 wrote: »

I honestly don't see this as a solution at all. It sounds like arbitrary numbers that don't really understand how roles and mobs work.

*Tanks don't taunt everything. They prioritize. Additionally some damage is random and the tank will never have control of it.
*Dps must each do 25% damage. 2 dps = 50% of damage between the two of them which leaves the other 50% split between the tank and the healer. However, under your numbers, they also have another quota to meet as well.
*Some healers, depending on content, slot damage skills. Competent players usually have some degree of self-heals so a healer is going to help melt through the trash rather than stand around twiddling their thumbs and waiting for someone to need them. But hey, they only did 48.2% healing so oops, sorry, no reward.
*There's no even distribution of skill in this game. Someone will always be better than you. Trying to use random group to then make sure damage dealt is "fair" is never going to work unless you want people to stop to analyze every fight and then adjust accordingly for the next one (hey #2 had 63% last fight - can you stand still and do nothing for a couple seconds so we can get our reward). I don't have time for this. You don't have time for this.

Punishing everyone in the group, for not meeting some random percentage quota, even if the dungeon is completed, is not the answer. In fact, this would likely cause tons more problems. I mean, unless you want people to just not bother at all.

After running hundreds of dungeons these are numbers I feel are close to what even disorganised groups or groups with mismatched players achieve assuming they are playing their role in most dungeons. Am sure ZOS could calculate more accurate figures that would be more suitable.