The "eSo PvP iS mAdE fOr bIg GrOuPs AnD zErGs"- argument doesn't make sense at all considering everyone knows the servers can't handle big groups and zergs. On top of that, Cyrodiils population has decreased by alot since 2014. Since we all know zos won't fix the lag the only logical move at this point would be to give up the idea of huge groups and encourage people to play in smaller groups by decreasing group size to 12, adapting to the reality of ESO.

CyrusArya wrote: »

@Recremen I respect your enthusiasm and passion for raid style PvP. Ultimately this is a game and we should all be allowed to enjoy it the way we choose. That being said, it is irrefutable that it takes more skillful gameplay to find success solo or small scale vs in a raid group. This is not to say that one playstyle is necessarily more skillful than another, just that it requires more of the individual as group size gets smaller for many reasons that I can delve into if you wanna argue this point. Anyone who can successfully solo or small scale can easily perform well in a raid group, but the inverse is very far from being true. I am willing to bet that the cross section of this game’s PvP population that can find consistent success in a raid group is orders of magnitude larger than the proportion of players that can find success in a small group, let alone solo. There’s a reason for that.

This is coming from someone who has plenty of perspective from both ends of the spectrum, from 1vX all the way up to many nights spent in Khole raids back when that was a thing.

@CyrusArya

You can't really make a solid claim about finding "successful" play when we haven't even established what you're measuring for success. Is it the ability to capture objectives? If so, sure, raids have an "easier" time of that because those are fights specifically designed to draw raids, making the argument pretty pointless. Is it KDR? Can't be, because plenty of raids have crap KDR. Being in a group doesn't make you suddenly competent. Is it the ability to "win" fights? Can't be, because again some raids have terrible win rates while others have very high ones. What exactly are you using to measure success?

It also doesn't require more of the individual as group size gets smaller. If you're fighting scrubby people you can pretty easily roll them in a small group just as a good raid can pretty easily roll a bad raid. If you're fighting good players then you have to work more for it, and that applies to both group sizes. And if you're fighting outnumbered, again, you need to put in more and that applies to both group sizes. With group cap firmly at 24, it is not only possible but quite common to fight categorically larger forces, the same problem that smallscale groups run up against. No matter the argument, every problem faced by smallscale PvP groups has a direct equivalent in larger groups.

I also disagree with your statements regarding both smallscale players doing well in raid settings and raiders doing poorly in smallscale. There is no guarantee for either of those and experience frequently provides counterpoints against the argument. Let's say, just for this particular case, that we use KDR as our success metric. While there are some small-scalers that do well in a raid setting, there are also plenty who are frequently off squirreling and dying more than any other member of the group because they are failing to adapt to the needs of a larger fight. Similarly, while there are some raiders who choke up when off in small groups or on their own, there is a host of others who can keep a high KDR because it turns out they're skilled players regardless of the setting. And we need not use KDR as the metric for the argument to hold true, we can use whatever you like.

Seriously, try it out. Qualify how you measure success in small group combat, and see if you can or can't just scale the situation up to a raid setting and find the same types of challenges.