An Undaunted tutorial would be nice

arun_rajputb16_ESO · November 2018

Hey ZOS, you'll know from your forums on here and other places that a regular issue is the improper tanks and/or healers in group content such as dungeons and trials. I was recently asked by a guild member to help him through his first trial, nHRC He said he would tank it. We got the group together and started on first boss. The tank transformed into a warewolf and started scratching away at the boss, then died. We res'd him and rinse and repeat. After we managed to do the boss, tankless, I asked him if he had a taunt on. He didn't know what a taunt was - he thought being a tank was the ability to take some damage and "be tanky". So, it got me thinking, what would have helped him. I had a two hour chat with him on his char and the role of a tank. In the end, he turned his magic, stam based sorc warewolf into a damage dealer.

So, here's my idea. Instead of listening to the undaunted song when you join them, could we not have a brief, 5 minute tutorial on the basics of group content. The player would have to go through the three roles filling a preset default character with fixed abilities. For e.g.

A DK tank with a taunt and a and sword and shield equipped. The player starts against a boss and has two npc dd's and an npc healer. He has to taunt the boss and keep his aggro for 1 min. Whilst this is going on, a tutorial pops up telling him/her when to taunt or block and to look out for big attacks incoming. The player fails if aggro is lost more than once.

A Magicka sorc with destruction staff equipped. The player starts off as above and has an npc tank and healer and fellow npc damage dealer. The player has to damage the boss whilst avoiding various AoE's and single target attacks, like the last boss in Elden Hollow 1. The player fails if they die.

A Templar Healer with Restoration staff equipped. The player starts off with an npc tank and two npc dd's. The tutorial can start off with healing everyone and then start buffing them. The player fails if everyone dies or they die.

This doesn't have to be hard, just something that's very clear and explanatory. You don't want the player panicking whilst running the tutorial. You could have an advanced section where players can always go back to that explains different concepts such as AoE, DoT, proc, weaving, buffs and debuffs, CC and resistances. You could have an advanced section on each role - e.g. for the tank role, you can explain the concept of taunt, resistances and how they work and block cost.

With this, you'd have a more enlightened player base and more people might like the idea of tanking or healing. They'd, at the least have experienced them so appreciate what the role is.

Beardimus · November 2018

TBF this game makes huge assumptions people have played MMO's and know a ton of stuff coming into it.

This is painful in particular on Console - if you dont use the Forum / research online half of it all is madness to comprehend

arun_rajputb16_ESO · November 2018

Beardimus wrote: »

TBF this game makes huge assumptions people have played MMO's and know a ton of stuff coming into it.

This is painful in particular on Console - if you dont use the Forum / research online half of it all is madness to comprehend

This is very true. And so many new players have said they're just overwhelmed with it all. I had two friends stop playing a month after starting because it was too much with no tutorial. They were expecting Skyrim and got something much bigger and so much more complex.

BejaProphet · November 2018

Have an “agree”!

I’ve had a similar experience. Asked a friend in a dungeon if he wanted to be the tank. He said yes so I let him have the role.

A few fights later....

Me: Do you have a taunt?
Him: yes.

A few more fights...

Me: Do you have the taunt on your bar?
Him: yes

A few more fights...

Me: do you know what a taunt is?
Him: no

Cadbury · November 2018

FFXIV's Hall of the Novice

I like the idea, but this would do little to stop "fake tanks/healers/DPS"

arun_rajputb16_ESO · November 2018

Cadbury wrote: »

FFXIV's Hall of the Novice

I like the idea, but this would do little to stop "fake tanks/healers/DPS"

That's true, but I think if people have a go at the role, they might be tempted to have a proper go at it so we'd have more tanks/healers and then less people would feel the need to queue as the wrong role.

Liofa · November 2018

There is a tutorial. It's called Build Advisor. If your tank decided to not read or was not capable of reading, he would know that WW doesn't have taunt. You can't help someone who can't/won't read their skills whatever kind of tutorial you bring to the game. I mean, who will read a tutorial if they don't read their own skills? I also believe ESO should have a lot better tutorial but some cases are just hopeless that no tutorial will help.

albesca · November 2018

BejaProphet wrote: »

Have an “agree”!

I’ve had a similar experience. Asked a friend in a dungeon if he wanted to be the tank. He said yes so I let him have the role.

A few fights later....

Me: Do you have a taunt?
Him: yes.

A few more fights...

Me: Do you have the taunt on your bar?
Him: yes

A few more fights...

Me: do you know what a taunt is?
Him: no

Him: oh, sorry, I thought you said "aunt". I wondered how that would help us...

ESO is vast and there's very little if any explanation in game, but honestly jumping in your first trial taking the tank role for the first time without any prior knowledge is a bit too much, I think.
What was he expecting? A tutorial at the beginning of the trial? The game checking his skill bars and opening a popup with "Are you sure?"

Crafts_Many_Boxes · November 2018

One of the core issues is that a lot of players come in at the skill level of / expecting a game like Skyrim, which any real gamer knows is one of the easiest rpgs of all time. That's one of the many reasons it had such wild success and broad appeal.

Meanwhile, I would argue that ESO is actually several degrees harder and more complicated than other western MMOs, like WoW / Rift / Guild Wars / Etc. It has short duration dots, limited skill bars, no macro functionality, no ability clicking, dodge rolling, bashing, blocking, and my "favorite" functionality of all: animation cancelling.

So, when somebody goes from Skyrim to ESO endgame, it's like going from 0 to 100, especially for DLC dungeons.

NolaArch · November 2018

I can see the benefit in this. I also agree that the game does seem to assume that players are not new to MMOs. I find that particalry naive given the franchise. This was my first MMO.

A story: When I started —this is so embarrassing!— I had a sorc with all points in health and no concept of speccing for mag or stam. She was in full heavy armor —Orgum’s that I GOLDED— and I think a 2H on both bars. It was ridiculous. But I had no idea about roles and ideal builds. It wasn’t until I asked a player to craft me some new fancy Ancient Elf boots, and gold them, that I realized maybe I had an issue. They saw my pets out —because of course I was running the dinosaur and purple bird— and my weapons and choice of gear and asked, “Are you sure?” Maybe not? “What is your role?” My what? I had been randomly choosing to play whichever of the three when guildies asked because I thought it was a matter of swapping a few skills and taking care of myself. I realized that I had a lot of learning to do and read up about MMOs and roles and builds. I selected skill morphs surprisingly wisely, but I unlocked every single skill I could. There wasn’t much available in game to help me figure out how to best play in a group. Thankfully, I sold tons of pepper and purple motifs so I could swing immediately golding out (b/c of course) a few more gear sets while learning.

That was in May of 2014. I know people who have been playing since then who still don’t really know because they simply don’t realize there is more to what they’ve chosen to do and no one has the heart to ask them wtf is going on. They try to do vet DLCs and become frustrated. They do not seek out build or role guides online because I don’t think they believe they have to. Liofa is correct that simply reading build advisor is an absolute must for new players. But the players who have been in their heavy armor, all health, 2H on both bars hybrid for the last four years aren’t going to read too much into the advisor outside of morphing. I can absolutely see the benefit of something much more explicit.

TL;DR: This is my first mmo and I was so unbelievably unaware of what to do and had to realize that and seek aid outside of the game. Nothing is really built in to help. I personally know people still in that boat who don’t want to or don’t think they need to seek this aid anywhere. Mostly, because they just don’t know what CC, resistances, buffs, debuts, etc are nor their importance. So they don’t know they even should be looking this up. Build advice is a great start but an explicit tutorial could be better.

arun_rajputb16_ESO · November 2018

NolaArch wrote: »

I can see the benefit in this. I also agree that the game does seem to assume that players are not new to MMOs. I find that particalry naive given the franchise. This was my first MMO.

A sorry: When I started —this is so embarrassing!— I had a sorc with all points in health and no concept of speccing for mag or stam. She was in full heavy armor —Orgum’s that I GOLDED— and I think a 2H on both bars. It was ridiculous. But I had no idea about roles and ideal builds. It wasn’t until I asked a player to craft me some new fancy Ancient Elf boots, and gold them, that I realized maybe I had an issue. They saw my pets out —because of course I was running the dinosaur and purple bird— and my weapons and choice of gear and asked, “Are you sure?” Maybe not? “What is your role?” My what? I had been randomly choosing to play whichever of the three when guildies asked because I thought it was a matter of swapping a few skills and taking care of myself. I realized that I had a lot of learning to do and read up about MMOs and roles and builds. I selected skill morphs surprisingly wisely, but I unlocked every single skill I could. There wasn’t much available in game to help me figure out how to best play in a group. Thankfully, I sold tons of pepper and purple motifs so I could swing immediately golding out (b/c of course) a few more gear sets while learning.

That was in May of 2014. I know people who have been playing since then who still don’t really know because they simply don’t realize there is more to what they’ve chosen to do and no one has the heart to ask them wtf is going on. They try to do vet DLCs and become frustrated. They do not seek out build or role guides online because I don’t think they believe they have to. Liofa is correct that simply reading build advisor is an absolute must for new players. But the players who have been in their heavy armor, all health, 2H on both bars hybrid for the last four years aren’t going to read too much into the advisor outside of morphing. I can absolutely see the benefit of something much more explicit.

TL;DR: This is my first mmo and I was so unbelievably unaware of what to do and had to realize that and seek aid outside of the game. Nothing is really built in to help. I personally know people still in that boat who don’t want to or don’t think they need to seek this aid anywhere. Mostly, because they just don’t know what CC, resistances, buffs, debuts, etc are nor their importance. So they don’t know they even should be looking this up. Build advice is a great start but an explicit tutorial could be better.

Lol, I had exactly that experience with my first char on PC around the same time. It was a NB and I'd spread the char points over all three, health, stamina and magic. I used to just spam snipe until someone watched me in... Fungal Grotto I think, and helped me out. I had 8/9 pieces of that stam set for sneaking. He showed me that I could have multiple sets and the good dots. I'd played other MMOs but was always a healer or tank. Didn't have a clue about damage dealing.

There is 0 reasons for zos not to have at least the basics in a tutorial form. We get a lot of new players all of the time. This would really help them out.

arun_rajputb16_ESO · November 2018

albesca wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

Have an “agree”!

I’ve had a similar experience. Asked a friend in a dungeon if he wanted to be the tank. He said yes so I let him have the role.

A few fights later....

Me: Do you have a taunt?
Him: yes.

A few more fights...

Me: Do you have the taunt on your bar?
Him: yes

A few more fights...

Me: do you know what a taunt is?
Him: no

Him: oh, sorry, I thought you said "aunt". I wondered how that would help us...

ESO is vast and there's very little if any explanation in game, but honestly jumping in your first trial taking the tank role for the first time without any prior knowledge is a bit too much, I think.
What was he expecting? A tutorial at the beginning of the trial? The game checking his skill bars and opening a popup with "Are you sure?"

I think you misunderstand his reasoning. He didn't know what a tank was, per say. He thought it was something else so he thought he'd give it a go. From his perspective, he was going into his first trial as the tank - there is no real or helpful explanation of the role in game. People want to play the game, not read up on it.

On the flip side, I have a friend that did all the research on the game before starting. He built a stam nb. Put all the skills together, ground his way up to 50 and >160CP. He didn't have a clue what he was doing or why he was using certain abilities. In the end, it was too much and he quit 6 weeks later.

At level 0, we have a tutorial on the very basics of movement and combat (why they give you a two hander to start with is beyond me). There is no reason to not have another one going into a little detail on group play.

jypcy · November 2018

I saw the thread title and actually thought, yeah, some sort of tutorial like they have at the start of the game to explain basic mechanics for group content would be nice to have as an introduction to the undaunted instead of enduring their little ditty. Good to know others are thinking the same thing.

I agree that the skills do have some info directly on them, but I don’t think it’s particularly robust. And tmk there’s not much in the help menu either (but iirc I was looking to see if they bothered to explain some info related to attributes last time I checked it, so I might’ve missed it). Even if the tutorial is mundane for us more experienced players, I think it’d be great for a lot of the playerbase who want to get into dungeons.

I don’t think it’d solve the fake support roles problem, but it’d still be nice to have.

Mudcrabber · November 2018

Simple role validation would be nice too. A tank should have a taunt slotted, or a frost staff with tri-focus. A healer should have a restoration staff. If you try to select a role in the activity finder without those you'd get a message saying what's missing.

jypcy · November 2018

Mudcrabber wrote: »

Simple role validation would be nice too. A tank should have a taunt slotted, or a frost staff with tri-focus. A healer should have a restoration staff. If you try to select a role in the activity finder without those you'd get a message saying what's missing.

I do think that could help reduce fake tanks/healers, but I don’t think it’s the right solution. The most common response that I see to this is that the fake tank will just slot a taunt, queue, and then remove the taunt as soon as he’s in group. Zos could lock ability sets and skill slots upon entering a dungeon to try to prevent that, but I don’t think that’d work well because there are viable reasons you’d change either throughout the dungeon, and you could still have a fake tank who slots the necessary skill/item and then never uses it.

eso_nya · November 2018

I wish theyd spend as much time to teach ppl "real" mechanics as they spend on teaching how to throw a firerock on a strangler.

AcadianPaladin · November 2018

I agree. Would love the game to offer more tutorial type instruction. As things are now you basically get taught how to block the white lines, interrupt the red ones then told to go save the world.

idk · November 2018

I find it odd someone was interested in tanking and never discussed tanking with anyone or looked up anything about tanking in ESO. Granted, the person was clearly new to MMORPGs since a skill with a taunt is pretty standard for tanking in most games.

Getting beyond such noobness and to the point of this thread, OP's idea is flawed in two different directions.

1. Many players level up tanks with S&B on their back bar and have damage weapons and skills on their front bar. So with OP's suggestion they would get the damage tutorial.
2. Those new to MMORPGs, as OP's friend clearly is, probably do not know what they plan to do at lvl 5-10

Besides all this, discussion amongst guild mates and searching the internet for fan based sites with builds, etc, have always been the best sources for learning the game. Devs in most MMORPGs and especially ESO, are far from the experts. A look at how broken the skill advisor was when it was launched is a clear indication.

BTW, OP in the suggestion already has requirements that are beyond the minimal requirements Zos sets. A templar does not need a resto staff and buffing is not a requirement of healing. My point here is no one will agree on what this tutorial should entail.

Zos will probably add something like this eventually and we will not be pleased with it because everyone has a different opinion of what is required.

DaveMoeDee · November 2018

Liofa wrote: »

There is a tutorial. It's called Build Advisor. If your tank decided to not read or was not capable of reading, he would know that WW doesn't have taunt. You can't help someone who can't/won't read their skills whatever kind of tutorial you bring to the game. I mean, who will read a tutorial if they don't read their own skills? I also believe ESO should have a lot better tutorial but some cases are just hopeless that no tutorial will help.

Build Advisor doesn't help with the OP's example. The person was asked if they can tank. They don't know what that means and Build Advisor didn't teach them because they weren't trying to build a tank. 'Tank' is gaming jargon. It has no obvious, unambiguous meaning to those who aren't familiar with its use. I only learned about the concept of tanking on a second playthrough of Dragon Age: Origins when I was looking at party guides online and saw the theme of having a tank to absorb all the damage so more brittle party members don't get hit.

I would just throw instructions in the text-based help and have a ? in the group finder by where role selection is. In the OPs example, they taught the other player and now that player knows. That is good enough.

BejaProphet · November 2018

I love when somebody replies to a post like this and dismisses the entire idea because one minor detail ought to be tweaked. As if the forum post was the final ZOS implemented form of the idea.

arun_rajputb16_ESO · November 2018

BejaProphet wrote: »

I love when somebody replies to a post like this and dismisses the entire idea because one minor detail ought to be tweaked. As if the forum post was the final ZOS implemented form of the idea.

I know the post you refer to... I got as far as "noobness" and stopped reading

Some people are contrarians and have to disagree. It gives them a sense of importance and power.

Merlin13KAGL · November 2018

What you're asking for is rare, because the intention with Undaunted is that you pursue the 4 man dungeons well before trying to step into 12 man anything.

No offense, but in part, it's your fault for putting someone in the lead position of a trial, apparently without ever having even joined with in 4 man.

There are various 4 man dungeons that are good indicators and teachers regarding what does and does not work with builds and roles.

Short of a PuG or random, I'd never consider going into any ugly content, even on norm, without knowing ahead of time the person had some handle on what they were doing.

While some of the terminology may be unfamiliar if you've never MMO'd, the means to learn is provided, at least at a basic level.

There is nothing to say that your friend may not have quick clicked through the tutorial requested in just the same manner.

Setting foot in a trial, even a norm, without knowledge of what a taunt even is is a failure of the person and whoever helped him grind to current level, not the game.

if you wished for a gauntlet, a training grounds, of sorts, beyond the 4 man, then I'd be all for it. Provide means for a certification, if you will. Beyond that, jumping into 4 man is intended to be trial by fire, and if done properly, it will teach 90% of what is needed to be known.

idk · November 2018

BejaProphet wrote: »

I love when somebody replies to a post like this and dismisses the entire idea because one minor detail ought to be tweaked. As if the forum post was the final ZOS implemented form of the idea.

Ignore the multiple flaws pointed out land the idea presented in the OP will remain substandard.

What I would suggest for next time is going over some basics to make sure they understood what needed to be done and that they understood what to expect.

That is such a basic expectation of a raid leader (which the OP was) helping a new tank and would have resolved the entire situation.

Certainly something to consider for next time.

BejaProphet · November 2018

idk wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

I love when somebody replies to a post like this and dismisses the entire idea because one minor detail ought to be tweaked. As if the forum post was the final ZOS implemented form of the idea.

What I would suggest for next time is going over some basics to make sure they understood what needed to be done and that they understood what to expect.

That is such a basic expectation of a raid leader (which the OP was) helping a new tank and would have resolved the entire situation.

Certainly something to consider for next time.

You’re not wrong.

arun_rajputb16_ESO · November 2018

idk wrote: »

That is such a basic expectation of a raid leader (which the OP was) helping a new tank and would have resolved the entire situation.

Certainly something to consider for next time.

Lol, I quite clearly said in my original post:

I was recently asked by a guild member to help him through his first trial, nHRC He said he would tank it.

I neither said I was "raid" leader nor insinuated it.

You're clutching at straws or deflecting from your negativity. I'd suggest you properly read text before commenting. It's certainly something for you to consider for next time.

arun_rajputb16_ESO · November 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

What you're asking for is rare, because the intention with Undaunted is that you pursue the 4 man dungeons well before trying to step into 12 man anything.

No offense, but in part, it's your fault for putting someone in the lead position of a trial, apparently without ever having even joined with in 4 man.

There are various 4 man dungeons that are good indicators and teachers regarding what does and does not work with builds and roles.

Short of a PuG or random, I'd never consider going into any ugly content, even on norm, without knowing ahead of time the person had some handle on what they were doing.

While some of the terminology may be unfamiliar if you've never MMO'd, the means to learn is provided, at least at a basic level.

There is nothing to say that your friend may not have quick clicked through the tutorial requested in just the same manner.

Setting foot in a trial, even a norm, without knowledge of what a taunt even is is a failure of the person and whoever helped him grind to current level, not the game.

if you wished for a gauntlet, a training grounds, of sorts, beyond the 4 man, then I'd be all for it. Provide means for a certification, if you will. Beyond that, jumping into 4 man is intended to be trial by fire, and if done properly, it will teach 90% of what is needed to be known.

I was actually thinking of a tutorial for the dungeons as one begins to unlock them. The trials example was just anecdotal and extreme.

All they need is a 5 minute intro. For those that have done it, they can skip. You have to try all three roles. It wouldn't hurt anyone and at the very least provide some info for new players.

What is the problem with that?

idk · November 2018

arun_rajputb16_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

That is such a basic expectation of a raid leader (which the OP was) helping a new tank and would have resolved the entire situation.

Certainly something to consider for next time.

Lol, I quite clearly said in my original post:

I was recently asked by a guild member to help him through his first trial, nHRC He said he would tank it.

I neither said I was "raid" leader nor insinuated it.

You're clutching at straws or deflecting from your negativity. I'd suggest you properly read text before commenting. It's certainly something for you to consider for next time.

You seemed to indicate you put the raid together (with your friend). You also indicate your friend asked you to help them through their first trial.

Regardless if you assigned someone else to be the raid leader after forming the group, both areas did not do their role.

It really does not matter how one slices and dices it, the situation still comes back to the same point.

BejaProphet · November 2018

I think we can all agree the original poster has not found the solution for stupid.

We can also agree that a player with a bit of initiative and an internet browser can figure things out.

I just think there is actually a sample of players in between those two categories which would be well served by a group role tutorial.

arun_rajputb16_ESO · November 2018

idk wrote: »

arun_rajputb16_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

That is such a basic expectation of a raid leader (which the OP was) helping a new tank and would have resolved the entire situation.

Certainly something to consider for next time.

Lol, I quite clearly said in my original post:

I was recently asked by a guild member to help him through his first trial, nHRC He said he would tank it.

I neither said I was "raid" leader nor insinuated it.

You're clutching at straws or deflecting from your negativity. I'd suggest you properly read text before commenting. It's certainly something for you to consider for next time.

You seemed to indicate you put the raid together (with your friend). You also indicate your friend asked you to help them through their first trial.

Regardless if you assigned someone else to be the raid leader after forming the group, both areas did not do their role.

It really does not matter how one slices and dices it, the situation still comes back to the same point.

I didn't say he was my friend either. It was a guild member that asked in guild chat, and I offered to join and help him through. It was normal hel Ra and we did it without a tank, which is neither surprising nor difficult a feat.

I didn't go into the details of that particular trial because, as mentioned, it was just an anecdote to start off my suggestion.

You've entirely changed your point from "your idea sucks". - which when constructively given is fine - to "you should be a better trials leader".

To that last point, I'm an excellent trials leader, fyi.

arun_rajputb16_ESO · November 2018

BejaProphet wrote: »

I think we can all agree the original poster has not found the solution for stupid.

We can also agree that a player with a bit of initiative and an internet browser can figure things out.

I just think there is actually a sample of players in between those two categories which would be well served by a group role tutorial.

If it helps 5% of the player base, it's been of use.

Cadbury · November 2018

arun_rajputb16_ESO wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

I think we can all agree the original poster has not found the solution for stupid.

We can also agree that a player with a bit of initiative and an internet browser can figure things out.

I just think there is actually a sample of players in between those two categories which would be well served by a group role tutorial.

If it helps 5% of the player base, it's been of use.

I like your optimism