Xeniph wrote: »

The best rule of thumb is:

If you have to ask how much Impen you should be running, you need 7 pieces of it.

This.

My usual start point is 2 reinforced, 1 devine, 4 impen ...

This is for PvP

Pve tends to be all devines or 5 devines 2 infused

Biro123 wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

I “feel” as if I saw almost no difference open world cp Cyrodiil 3400 crit resist vs 2800

Well it's a difference of like 9%

If after all mitigation an attack does 4k dmg at 3400 you'll take, 4.4k at 2800, you wouldn't see a big difference there

2800= 41%
3400= 50%

It's also impen first, minor maim second, armor third in the order of mitigation. If you are getting smacked with a 15k tooltip, but they have 1.7chd, they have a 1.29/1.2chd. 15k times 1.29/1.2 = 19350/18000. Then your armor could reduce it by 10% on most builds after heavy penetration (19350x0.9=17415). Then battlespirit (17415. x0.5= 8707). You can keep going for CP and major/minor protection, etc.

And that assumes a build is stopping at 1.7chd, in CP you could see that get to 80 or 90 in some cases, and in nCP you'll see 60-70 but ALOT less impen, unless you roll trans/impreg sets.

At the end of the day, armor/battlespirit will reduce the tooltip heavily, but impen reduces the initial tooltip so your mitigation doesn't have to work overtime.

Sorry I just woke up & feel brain-dead, what’s “chd”?

Surely the sequence means nothing. You could apply those reductions in any order and have the same final result, and just as easily say that having more resists reduces the size of the crit so your impen doesn't have to work overtime..?

*Edit. Sorry that was meant to Minno's post.

That is the general concensus. Old time players used to say "reducing overall damage reduces overall crit". Same goes for damage "increasing overall damage, increases crit".

But there are orders to how you mitigate damage. First is impen; it reduces your targets crit hit damage robs them of getting easy extra damage. Then its minor maim; 15% is the first chuck to take out of and thus gets the full 15% value. Then it's armor, so whatever 15% off minor maim is left. Then its whatever CP/minor pro/major pro kicks in. finally block.

So while the end result might be the same, if you use maim as your main defense then everything after that be subject to diminishing results. Crit resists do need some semblance of other mitigation in order to see the value in that trait; once you negate crit hit dmg, you will still take base damage.

Biro123 wrote: »

The point is, though, the order doesn't matter in the slightest, untill something additive is thrown in (the only one I can think of is shields, which only impacts the timing of the block calculation).

I mean, 1*2/3 is the same as 1/3*2. It's impossible to say which element has the reduced effect.. The number 2 has exactly the same impact whether it came second or third.

Well It's minor maim first, then your armor as confirmed by the mitigation thread, so there is an important order. Then after that it is impossible to know what's next, but either way your other mitigation is reducing a number that is already reduced so your total mitigation gained gets smaller and smaller as you keep going. It really becomes a game of figuring out the deltas between adding one mitigation over another, and understanding that how cheap you can get the big numbers.

Bleeds will ignore the armor, so your next available percentage based mitigation will be substantially stronger at reducing it. But with all small number tooltips, percentage is even less effective at reducing and where impen is much more important (keep them in manageable healing levels as you want your heals to crit higher than the dmg coming in.)

This is why protective and heavy armor are also kinda strong on certain builds or how effective spells that negate entire abilities/subtract are wonderful on builds (reflects, absorbs, shields, etc.)

I also havent seen anyone test if there is an order between armor and shields; does battlespirit happen before CP or vice versa?

Minno wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

The point is, though, the order doesn't matter in the slightest, untill something additive is thrown in (the only one I can think of is shields, which only impacts the timing of the block calculation).

I mean, 1*2/3 is the same as 1/3*2. It's impossible to say which element has the reduced effect.. The number 2 has exactly the same impact whether it came second or third.

Well It's minor maim first, then your armor as confirmed by the mitigation thread, so there is an important order. Then after that it is impossible to know what's next, but either way your other mitigation is reducing a number that is already reduced so your total mitigation gained gets smaller and smaller as you keep going. It really becomes a game of figuring out the deltas between adding one mitigation over another, and understanding that how cheap you can get the big numbers.

Bleeds will ignore the armor, so your next available percentage based mitigation will be substantially stronger at reducing it. But with all small number tooltips, percentage is even less effective at reducing and where impen is much more important (keep them in manageable healing levels as you want your heals to crit higher than the dmg coming in.)

This is why protective and heavy armor are also kinda strong on certain builds or how effective spells that negate entire abilities/subtract are wonderful on builds (reflects, absorbs, shields, etc.)

I also havent seen anyone test if there is an order between armor and shields; does battlespirit happen before CP or vice versa?

Mathematially, though, it doesn't matter. There will be an order in which the calculation is coded - but it can be written in any order.
Maim first makes sense logically as it's a debuff to the attacker. It would make sense to be coded so that the 'attacker' object in game determines its outgoing damage, with his debuffs applied, and sends the result to the defender object who would then apply his defences to that figure..
But mathematically, as they are all multiplicative, the order doesn't matter.

Let's take a simple example..
1000 tooltip hits a target with 10% resistances. Damage done is 900, right?

Add minor maim.
15% of 900 is 135, reducing it to 765.
But 135 is only 13.5 percent of the tooltip damage. So is Minor maim less effective because if the resists?

Or do we do it the other way. Tooltip damage of 1000 reduced by minor maim = 850 - which then gets reduced by 85 for the defenders 10% resists to 765. But 10% of 1000 is 100, not 85.. so are the resists less effective because of minor maim?

Or do they both reduce the effectiveness of each other?

The point is, it doesn't matter. The more factors you include, the more they diminish the effects of all other factors. Therefore no single effect is more or less effective than the others due to the sequence in which they are applied. All that matters is the size of them.

The only exception to this is when addition/subtraction comes in.. eg shields being a flat amount rather than a percentage reduction. Because then it matters whether the percentage reductions are done before or after the flat reduction.

Biro123 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

The point is, though, the order doesn't matter in the slightest, untill something additive is thrown in (the only one I can think of is shields, which only impacts the timing of the block calculation).

I mean, 1*2/3 is the same as 1/3*2. It's impossible to say which element has the reduced effect.. The number 2 has exactly the same impact whether it came second or third.

Well It's minor maim first, then your armor as confirmed by the mitigation thread, so there is an important order. Then after that it is impossible to know what's next, but either way your other mitigation is reducing a number that is already reduced so your total mitigation gained gets smaller and smaller as you keep going. It really becomes a game of figuring out the deltas between adding one mitigation over another, and understanding that how cheap you can get the big numbers.

Bleeds will ignore the armor, so your next available percentage based mitigation will be substantially stronger at reducing it. But with all small number tooltips, percentage is even less effective at reducing and where impen is much more important (keep them in manageable healing levels as you want your heals to crit higher than the dmg coming in.)

This is why protective and heavy armor are also kinda strong on certain builds or how effective spells that negate entire abilities/subtract are wonderful on builds (reflects, absorbs, shields, etc.)

I also havent seen anyone test if there is an order between armor and shields; does battlespirit happen before CP or vice versa?

Mathematially, though, it doesn't matter. There will be an order in which the calculation is coded - but it can be written in any order.
Maim first makes sense logically as it's a debuff to the attacker. It would make sense to be coded so that the 'attacker' object in game determines its outgoing damage, with his debuffs applied, and sends the result to the defender object who would then apply his defences to that figure..
But mathematically, as they are all multiplicative, the order doesn't matter.

Let's take a simple example..
1000 tooltip hits a target with 10% resistances. Damage done is 900, right?

Add minor maim.
15% of 900 is 135, reducing it to 765.
But 135 is only 13.5 percent of the tooltip damage. So is Minor maim less effective because if the resists?

Or do we do it the other way. Tooltip damage of 1000 reduced by minor maim = 850 - which then gets reduced by 85 for the defenders 10% resists to 765. But 10% of 1000 is 100, not 85.. so are the resists less effective because of minor maim?

Or do they both reduce the effectiveness of each other?

The point is, it doesn't matter. The more factors you include, the more they diminish the effects of all other factors. Therefore no single effect is more or less effective than the others due to the sequence in which they are applied. All that matters is the size of them.

The only exception to this is when addition/subtraction comes in.. eg shields being a flat amount rather than a percentage reduction. Because then it matters whether the percentage reductions are done before or after the flat reduction.

You stated:
“The more factors you include, the more they diminish the effects of all other factors. ”

Asking for clarification so I don’t misinterpret...
Does this mean if I have decent crit resist & decent armor resist that I don’t want to add minor maim to my build because it will lessen the effects of my current resist? Would it be more efficient to just stack higher resist in this scenario?

Biro123 wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

The point is, though, the order doesn't matter in the slightest, untill something additive is thrown in (the only one I can think of is shields, which only impacts the timing of the block calculation).

I mean, 1*2/3 is the same as 1/3*2. It's impossible to say which element has the reduced effect.. The number 2 has exactly the same impact whether it came second or third.

Well It's minor maim first, then your armor as confirmed by the mitigation thread, so there is an important order. Then after that it is impossible to know what's next, but either way your other mitigation is reducing a number that is already reduced so your total mitigation gained gets smaller and smaller as you keep going. It really becomes a game of figuring out the deltas between adding one mitigation over another, and understanding that how cheap you can get the big numbers.

Bleeds will ignore the armor, so your next available percentage based mitigation will be substantially stronger at reducing it. But with all small number tooltips, percentage is even less effective at reducing and where impen is much more important (keep them in manageable healing levels as you want your heals to crit higher than the dmg coming in.)

This is why protective and heavy armor are also kinda strong on certain builds or how effective spells that negate entire abilities/subtract are wonderful on builds (reflects, absorbs, shields, etc.)

I also havent seen anyone test if there is an order between armor and shields; does battlespirit happen before CP or vice versa?

Mathematially, though, it doesn't matter. There will be an order in which the calculation is coded - but it can be written in any order.
Maim first makes sense logically as it's a debuff to the attacker. It would make sense to be coded so that the 'attacker' object in game determines its outgoing damage, with his debuffs applied, and sends the result to the defender object who would then apply his defences to that figure..
But mathematically, as they are all multiplicative, the order doesn't matter.

Let's take a simple example..
1000 tooltip hits a target with 10% resistances. Damage done is 900, right?

Add minor maim.
15% of 900 is 135, reducing it to 765.
But 135 is only 13.5 percent of the tooltip damage. So is Minor maim less effective because if the resists?

Or do we do it the other way. Tooltip damage of 1000 reduced by minor maim = 850 - which then gets reduced by 85 for the defenders 10% resists to 765. But 10% of 1000 is 100, not 85.. so are the resists less effective because of minor maim?

Or do they both reduce the effectiveness of each other?

The point is, it doesn't matter. The more factors you include, the more they diminish the effects of all other factors. Therefore no single effect is more or less effective than the others due to the sequence in which they are applied. All that matters is the size of them.

The only exception to this is when addition/subtraction comes in.. eg shields being a flat amount rather than a percentage reduction. Because then it matters whether the percentage reductions are done before or after the flat reduction.

You stated:
“The more factors you include, the more they diminish the effects of all other factors. ”

Asking for clarification so I don’t misinterpret...
Does this mean if I have decent crit resist & decent armor resist that I don’t want to add minor maim to my build because it will lessen the effects of my current resist? Would it be more efficient to just stack higher resist in this scenario?

Its because each additional extra factor works on an already reduced amount - rather than the full tooltip. eg, if we have 3 mitigation sources for 10% each - reducing a 100 tooltip damage - you would get..:

100-10% = 90dmg
-10% (of 90) = 81dmg
-10% (of 81) = 73dmg

A total of 27 damage reduced. So if we don't care about the order (which mathematically doesn't matter) and treat all equally - each 10% reduction reduced the damage by 27/3 = 9.
Obviously a 10% reduction from 100 is 10, not 9, yet each of these is now only reducing 9 damage.

In contrast, if you can get 30% reduction from one source as opposed to 3 seperate 10% reductions - you would simply have 100-30% = 70 damage, making it more effective.

So for your specific question - adding more sources of reduction will never make your defence worse.. but there will be a point where the overall benefit is negligible - eg if we take a really extreme example
-say you have 90% mitigation from a singe source vs a 100dmg tooltip.
100 - 90% = 10dmg
then add minor maim - 10-15% = 8.5 damage. Is minor maim really worth it in that instance - for only 1.5 more overall damage reduction?

Also - to your other question - Block should be counted last - and separately - because it doesn't affect shields. Would need to work out all the other mitigations first - take that damage from the shield - and if any damage is left to apply (ie shield is depleted), then apply the block reduction to that to see how much damage is done to health.

Biro123 wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

The point is, though, the order doesn't matter in the slightest, untill something additive is thrown in (the only one I can think of is shields, which only impacts the timing of the block calculation).

I mean, 1*2/3 is the same as 1/3*2. It's impossible to say which element has the reduced effect.. The number 2 has exactly the same impact whether it came second or third.

Well It's minor maim first, then your armor as confirmed by the mitigation thread, so there is an important order. Then after that it is impossible to know what's next, but either way your other mitigation is reducing a number that is already reduced so your total mitigation gained gets smaller and smaller as you keep going. It really becomes a game of figuring out the deltas between adding one mitigation over another, and understanding that how cheap you can get the big numbers.

Bleeds will ignore the armor, so your next available percentage based mitigation will be substantially stronger at reducing it. But with all small number tooltips, percentage is even less effective at reducing and where impen is much more important (keep them in manageable healing levels as you want your heals to crit higher than the dmg coming in.)

This is why protective and heavy armor are also kinda strong on certain builds or how effective spells that negate entire abilities/subtract are wonderful on builds (reflects, absorbs, shields, etc.)

I also havent seen anyone test if there is an order between armor and shields; does battlespirit happen before CP or vice versa?

Mathematially, though, it doesn't matter. There will be an order in which the calculation is coded - but it can be written in any order.
Maim first makes sense logically as it's a debuff to the attacker. It would make sense to be coded so that the 'attacker' object in game determines its outgoing damage, with his debuffs applied, and sends the result to the defender object who would then apply his defences to that figure..
But mathematically, as they are all multiplicative, the order doesn't matter.

Let's take a simple example..
1000 tooltip hits a target with 10% resistances. Damage done is 900, right?

Add minor maim.
15% of 900 is 135, reducing it to 765.
But 135 is only 13.5 percent of the tooltip damage. So is Minor maim less effective because if the resists?

Or do we do it the other way. Tooltip damage of 1000 reduced by minor maim = 850 - which then gets reduced by 85 for the defenders 10% resists to 765. But 10% of 1000 is 100, not 85.. so are the resists less effective because of minor maim?

Or do they both reduce the effectiveness of each other?

The point is, it doesn't matter. The more factors you include, the more they diminish the effects of all other factors. Therefore no single effect is more or less effective than the others due to the sequence in which they are applied. All that matters is the size of them.

The only exception to this is when addition/subtraction comes in.. eg shields being a flat amount rather than a percentage reduction. Because then it matters whether the percentage reductions are done before or after the flat reduction.

You stated:
“The more factors you include, the more they diminish the effects of all other factors. ”

Asking for clarification so I don’t misinterpret...
Does this mean if I have decent crit resist & decent armor resist that I don’t want to add minor maim to my build because it will lessen the effects of my current resist? Would it be more efficient to just stack higher resist in this scenario?

Its because each additional extra factor works on an already reduced amount - rather than the full tooltip. eg, if we have 3 mitigation sources for 10% each - reducing a 100 tooltip damage - you would get..:

100-10% = 90dmg
-10% (of 90) = 81dmg
-10% (of 81) = 73dmg

A total of 27 damage reduced. So if we don't care about the order (which mathematically doesn't matter) and treat all equally - each 10% reduction reduced the damage by 27/3 = 9.
Obviously a 10% reduction from 100 is 10, not 9, yet each of these is now only reducing 9 damage.

In contrast, if you can get 30% reduction from one source as opposed to 3 seperate 10% reductions - you would simply have 100-30% = 70 damage, making it more effective.

So for your specific question - adding more sources of reduction will never make your defence worse.. but there will be a point where the overall benefit is negligible - eg if we take a really extreme example
-say you have 90% mitigation from a singe source vs a 100dmg tooltip.
100 - 90% = 10dmg
then add minor maim - 10-15% = 8.5 damage. Is minor maim really worth it in that instance - for only 1.5 more overall damage reduction?

Also - to your other question - Block should be counted last - and separately - because it doesn't affect shields. Would need to work out all the other mitigations first - take that damage from the shield - and if any damage is left to apply (ie shield is depleted), then apply the block reduction to that to see how much damage is done to health.

It's maim first always because it impacts your target. Then armor. Then whatever mitigation is next where we don't have the order. Then shield subtracts. Then block.

You want impen, you really do.

Think about it.

If 2 attacks crit, you may as well be taking 3 abilities in 2 GCDs. That's epic.

GCDs are the most important thing in this game, and having the equivalent of bypassing a GCD is huge.

kaithuzar wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

The point is, though, the order doesn't matter in the slightest, untill something additive is thrown in (the only one I can think of is shields, which only impacts the timing of the block calculation).

I mean, 1*2/3 is the same as 1/3*2. It's impossible to say which element has the reduced effect.. The number 2 has exactly the same impact whether it came second or third.

Well It's minor maim first, then your armor as confirmed by the mitigation thread, so there is an important order. Then after that it is impossible to know what's next, but either way your other mitigation is reducing a number that is already reduced so your total mitigation gained gets smaller and smaller as you keep going. It really becomes a game of figuring out the deltas between adding one mitigation over another, and understanding that how cheap you can get the big numbers.

Bleeds will ignore the armor, so your next available percentage based mitigation will be substantially stronger at reducing it. But with all small number tooltips, percentage is even less effective at reducing and where impen is much more important (keep them in manageable healing levels as you want your heals to crit higher than the dmg coming in.)

This is why protective and heavy armor are also kinda strong on certain builds or how effective spells that negate entire abilities/subtract are wonderful on builds (reflects, absorbs, shields, etc.)

I also havent seen anyone test if there is an order between armor and shields; does battlespirit happen before CP or vice versa?

Mathematially, though, it doesn't matter. There will be an order in which the calculation is coded - but it can be written in any order.
Maim first makes sense logically as it's a debuff to the attacker. It would make sense to be coded so that the 'attacker' object in game determines its outgoing damage, with his debuffs applied, and sends the result to the defender object who would then apply his defences to that figure..
But mathematically, as they are all multiplicative, the order doesn't matter.

Let's take a simple example..
1000 tooltip hits a target with 10% resistances. Damage done is 900, right?

Add minor maim.
15% of 900 is 135, reducing it to 765.
But 135 is only 13.5 percent of the tooltip damage. So is Minor maim less effective because if the resists?

Or do we do it the other way. Tooltip damage of 1000 reduced by minor maim = 850 - which then gets reduced by 85 for the defenders 10% resists to 765. But 10% of 1000 is 100, not 85.. so are the resists less effective because of minor maim?

Or do they both reduce the effectiveness of each other?

The point is, it doesn't matter. The more factors you include, the more they diminish the effects of all other factors. Therefore no single effect is more or less effective than the others due to the sequence in which they are applied. All that matters is the size of them.

The only exception to this is when addition/subtraction comes in.. eg shields being a flat amount rather than a percentage reduction. Because then it matters whether the percentage reductions are done before or after the flat reduction.

You stated:
“The more factors you include, the more they diminish the effects of all other factors. ”

Asking for clarification so I don’t misinterpret...
Does this mean if I have decent crit resist & decent armor resist that I don’t want to add minor maim to my build because it will lessen the effects of my current resist? Would it be more efficient to just stack higher resist in this scenario?

Its because each additional extra factor works on an already reduced amount - rather than the full tooltip. eg, if we have 3 mitigation sources for 10% each - reducing a 100 tooltip damage - you would get..:

100-10% = 90dmg
-10% (of 90) = 81dmg
-10% (of 81) = 73dmg

A total of 27 damage reduced. So if we don't care about the order (which mathematically doesn't matter) and treat all equally - each 10% reduction reduced the damage by 27/3 = 9.
Obviously a 10% reduction from 100 is 10, not 9, yet each of these is now only reducing 9 damage.

In contrast, if you can get 30% reduction from one source as opposed to 3 seperate 10% reductions - you would simply have 100-30% = 70 damage, making it more effective.

So for your specific question - adding more sources of reduction will never make your defence worse.. but there will be a point where the overall benefit is negligible - eg if we take a really extreme example
-say you have 90% mitigation from a singe source vs a 100dmg tooltip.
100 - 90% = 10dmg
then add minor maim - 10-15% = 8.5 damage. Is minor maim really worth it in that instance - for only 1.5 more overall damage reduction?

Also - to your other question - Block should be counted last - and separately - because it doesn't affect shields. Would need to work out all the other mitigations first - take that damage from the shield - and if any damage is left to apply (ie shield is depleted), then apply the block reduction to that to see how much damage is done to health.

Thanks for your response. I can follow along with the concepts but I don’t know the formulas & can get confused when there is too much data to keep track of. I hope someone comes along & makes a graph similar to what @Taylor_MB did in his previous defense discussion.

In your example, you said:
“Say you have 90% mitigation from a single source”,
But closer to what my reality is, it’s more a case of I have 40% resistance from a single source & I would like to know if diminishing returns happen & if so is that the 50% mark?
Also is it more efficient to bump that resistance up to 60% or keep it at 40 & add minor maim?
It would be nice to see “jump points” for damage & mitigation values on a graph.
I know people have put damage calculators in the form of google spreadsheets before I just don’t know if any are up to date?

My assumption is that I’m fighting people with 6-10k penetration, in heavy armor with ~500 weapon/sp dmg, & 35-40% crit dmg.

My goal is that if myself & another player are hitting one another, 1 for 1 attacks, that I would be able to be the last one standing due to my mitigation being higher.

There are a lot of things to consider here really - its too much to put into one post - and I'm not really the expert and can't give an answer that applied to all classes.
But it has to be said that a strong defence consists of a number of mechanics - all of which need to work together to be successful..:
- An active defence (Block/dodge/shield) - and the right one at the right time!
- Active defensive abilities (cloak/purge/wings etc)
- Passive defences (resists/impen)
- Defensive buffs (and debuffs for your opponent) - maim, protection etc.. whether from gear, passives or active abilities.
- Heals to pick up what does get through (and their associated buffs/debuffs)
- And then the sustain to keep it all going.
- And size of your health-bar to handle bursts

No single mechanic can do the job alone anymore..

You put too much into, say, passive defences, and you may not be able to sustain it - or maybe your heals will be so low that you could actually be worse off!

Generally, though - given that most heals are over time - and once in execute range - it can be hard to get out of it - a good burst that can put you in execute range can be what leads to your death - This is where the value of impen comes into play as it can take a lot of the edge off the bursts. Aside from that - chose an active defence to focus on (doesn't mean you can't use the others sparingly - its mostly a sustain thing) - and have a bit of everything else..

For example, may stamblade goes for dodge, cloak, heavy armour (no real extra resist stacking), shade for minor maim/escapes - decent weapon damage for heals (and passives from heavy/Argonian) and resources from Argonian pots.

My Stamplar is more about blocking, resists, heals and purge, and defensive buffs.

Both have over 2700 crit resists..

My magsorc is heavy on the crit resists (3700) with a good amount of resists for light armour (21k), using shields and mobility (with the odd dodge/block) - but poor heals.

All three have a good balance between defence and offence - which is also an important point.. if you stack so much defence that you can't pressure you're opponent - he can just go full offence and will wear you down. There is truth in the adage of 'the best defence is a good offence' - simply put - the more time you can make your opponent cast shields, block, dodge, heal - the less time he's spending attacking you.

Waffennacht wrote: »

rumple9 wrote: »

How do you get more impen without cp?

Impreg or transmutation

I kinda wish they added crit resist traits to jewels. Having to run 2 sets for the correct crit resist values in this high CHD meta is not exactly winning any build diversity awards lol.

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

i dont use impen.
i run 32500 high resist build.

this is stupid, any halfway decent nightblade will melt this guy.