Has anyone tried to use Defensive Posture to reflect back a reflected spell? It persists through bar swap right? I wonder if it’s like playing double Reverses in UNO.

Anyway, I recently (as in this past weekend) leveled a stam DK through Battlegrounds and the wings are not OP in practice, sorry.

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Has anyone tried to use Defensive Posture to reflect back a reflected spell? It persists through bar swap right? I wonder if it’s like playing double Reverses in UNO.

Anyway, I recently (as in this past weekend) leveled a stam DK through Battlegrounds and the wings are not OP in practice, sorry.

Pingpong is no longer possible. It was my favorite past time activity as a Sorc, Templar back then.

On point of the thread (?), DK wings are hardly a game breaker. Nice break for 4 projectiles that CAN be reflected. But most use unreflectable spammable and good Sorcs always time their burst very well. They do not have much problem. They may get annoyed but they do not have trouble with wings as they always time their burst so well. DK or not, Sorcs and mNBs can beat DKs in ranged games.

It's nothing to do with sorc' timing, it's all on the DKs timing. All because sorc' burst is very telegraphed...
Basically the DK can simply choose whether or not to nullify that burst.
Good DK s will time their wings so the sorc' sees the animation just as he's cast the frag, so he loses the option of not casting it, gets the frag back on the face and is put on the defensive after just taking a decent hit.
Best case for the sorc' is to not cast frags, and if crushing shock is slotted, spam that.
But then what DK ever died to crushing shock spam? And what sorc' ever killed anyone without his burst?

Illuvatarr wrote: »

KingLogix wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

DK’s wings and other reflective abilities should cost much more or removed from the game. It’s a silly I win button ability and with the current state of the game is not warranted. Range means nothing and dks can burst from melee range and from range with weapon abilities. Dks pay no price for survivability. Never have.

4k for a meh self-heal(that can heal less than what it costs despite being a self only heal)
4k for just major mending(and a shield that is less than 1k, not even exaggerating)
almost 4k for reflect , which is the ''class defining'' ability.


Do you realize that I have to run extra magicka regen on my stamina Dk because of the absurd ability costs?
And do you even understand the concept of melee versus ranged? The burden of playing the equal of a turtle as a class? Wings might seem OP to someone in a 1v1 but they are pretty underpowered for open world use where it only takes two person to force you into spamming it till you go out of magicka.

Do you know why stamden excels and stamDk miserably fails, because unlike what you think Dks don't get free survivability, they actually pay a lot for it.. Guess who does get it for free though? Yes, wardens.

silly me expecting a typical magsorc main to understand what it feels to actually have sustain issues. You know what? Thats completely fine. Again, my fault for a proper argument with facts and supporting evidence. I'm not even angry at this point, I'm just sad. Can't you at least get a proper argument like ''oh hey look I'm a ranged magblade and I hate wings cause it counters my entire kit'', which is a fine argument that has its own logical answer to it, but yours is just.... I don't know how to put it.

Maikon wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Xarcus wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

DK’s wings and other reflective abilities should cost much more or removed from the game. It’s a silly I win button ability and with the current state of the game is not warranted. Range means nothing and dks can burst from melee range and from range with weapon abilities. Dks pay no price for survivability. Never have.

I guess you 're playing a 100% projectiles build (or something like that)

I don’t know if that’s relevant. What’s relevant is whether or not what I said is accurate.

its not accurate. force pulse, curse, mages wrath, SCR..... so many things go through reflect... not to mention there are times when frags/snipe will go through wings because ZOS.

wings is a very expensive ability, this is not something you can spam unless you build for it.

Build a dk, ill duel you on my sorc, and then we can see if you still feel the same way.

It’s a very expensive ability that costs about 3-3.5k mag. It can reflect completely without counter 4 abilities regardless of cost. The resource return on it is huge. The most important part about it is that there isn’t a counter in game to it. You say ways around it but there is a reason why you play your DK as opposed to your Sorc on the regular. It is the premier 1vx class. In your class you make the class shine more because you are a good player. In other cases wings is just an I win button. I am ok with it in game but there need to be more ways around it. Sorcs have no hard counter such as this to dks.

Yes, it is very expensive.

"It can reflect completely without counter 4 abilities" out of how many abilities in the game?

There are counters, melee, dots, force pulse, etc.

It is NOT the premier 1vX class, by any means.

There is nothing I Win about that skill.

"Sorcs have no hard counters against this" is just a sad excuse, because from my experience against you in pvp, you are one of the worst sorcs out there.

L2P good sir, and stop hard casting frags, that might help.

Yes we did have a 1v1 that you won. Took you a lot longer than it should a rank 40 DK. Other than that it’s usually your friends and you zerging me. If you don’t beat a Sorc on your overpowered DK, especially in non co, you need to pick a new class. Would be happy to duel you again on cpwhere the match up is more fair. (Although still favors DK)

Good sir, spell reflect is a bs ability and should have hard counters to it. Knight slayer armor is a good start to counter dks but itemization should not be the answer.

All you are is a shield spamming sorc, so yea, took me a bit to run your magicka out.

You can counter dk wings with a *** ton of abilities, but you know what's bs, is shield spamming, there's no reason a sorc should be able to constantly spam 40k+ worth of shields.

As well as endless fury spam, your gd 40 mile stun, and implosion, which literally procs off every gd thing in the game.

All that *** should either be on a global cd.

All I spam is empowered ward. Tell ya what...you are so bad I will just stack resist gear and use a heal. Still afraid to come duel me?

bro you are a sorc and complaining about wings that cost 3k ish on a stam dk that only has 10k stam?
Are you even LA weaving curse, endless, frags, pulse, buffs?
dont event start with, "he is spamming wings"
the dude has 10k magic and he has to allocate majority of it into igneous upkeep and volatile

You can take these notes: You should be LA weaving everything so that you can reduce the chances of him reflecting a frag

LA> curse> LA> fury > la> rune cage> LA frag
why is a stam dk telling you how to play your class.. I think you just suck to be honest

My skill level or anyone else’s for that matter is irrelevant. It’s a bs mechanic and there need to be counters in game to it on projectile skills. It is a hard counter to ranged classes and dks can use staves and bows for ranged attacks. There should be nothing in game that doesn’t have hard counters. Kinda like damage shields and shield breaker. Or streak and gap closers.

uhh no you are wrong. skill level is a big factor. I am not a fan of talking to a wall, so please reread what I said, and give me a better response. What I advised is a comeplete work around on wings when fighting a stamdk

Illuvatarr wrote: »

KingLogix wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

KingLogix wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

DK’s wings and other reflective abilities should cost much more or removed from the game. It’s a silly I win button ability and with the current state of the game is not warranted. Range means nothing and dks can burst from melee range and from range with weapon abilities. Dks pay no price for survivability. Never have.

4k for a meh self-heal(that can heal less than what it costs despite being a self only heal)
4k for just major mending(and a shield that is less than 1k, not even exaggerating)
almost 4k for reflect , which is the ''class defining'' ability.


Do you realize that I have to run extra magicka regen on my stamina Dk because of the absurd ability costs?
And do you even understand the concept of melee versus ranged? The burden of playing the equal of a turtle as a class? Wings might seem OP to someone in a 1v1 but they are pretty underpowered for open world use where it only takes two person to force you into spamming it till you go out of magicka.

Do you know why stamden excels and stamDk miserably fails, because unlike what you think Dks don't get free survivability, they actually pay a lot for it.. Guess who does get it for free though? Yes, wardens.

silly me expecting a typical magsorc main to understand what it feels to actually have sustain issues. You know what? Thats completely fine. Again, my fault for a proper argument with facts and supporting evidence. I'm not even angry at this point, I'm just sad. Can't you at least get a proper argument like ''oh hey look I'm a ranged magblade and I hate wings cause it counters my entire kit'', which is a fine argument that has its own logical answer to it, but yours is just.... I don't know how to put it.

Maikon wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Xarcus wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

DK’s wings and other reflective abilities should cost much more or removed from the game. It’s a silly I win button ability and with the current state of the game is not warranted. Range means nothing and dks can burst from melee range and from range with weapon abilities. Dks pay no price for survivability. Never have.

I guess you 're playing a 100% projectiles build (or something like that)

I don’t know if that’s relevant. What’s relevant is whether or not what I said is accurate.

its not accurate. force pulse, curse, mages wrath, SCR..... so many things go through reflect... not to mention there are times when frags/snipe will go through wings because ZOS.

wings is a very expensive ability, this is not something you can spam unless you build for it.

Build a dk, ill duel you on my sorc, and then we can see if you still feel the same way.

It’s a very expensive ability that costs about 3-3.5k mag. It can reflect completely without counter 4 abilities regardless of cost. The resource return on it is huge. The most important part about it is that there isn’t a counter in game to it. You say ways around it but there is a reason why you play your DK as opposed to your Sorc on the regular. It is the premier 1vx class. In your class you make the class shine more because you are a good player. In other cases wings is just an I win button. I am ok with it in game but there need to be more ways around it. Sorcs have no hard counter such as this to dks.

Yes, it is very expensive.

"It can reflect completely without counter 4 abilities" out of how many abilities in the game?

There are counters, melee, dots, force pulse, etc.

It is NOT the premier 1vX class, by any means.

There is nothing I Win about that skill.

"Sorcs have no hard counters against this" is just a sad excuse, because from my experience against you in pvp, you are one of the worst sorcs out there.

L2P good sir, and stop hard casting frags, that might help.

Yes we did have a 1v1 that you won. Took you a lot longer than it should a rank 40 DK. Other than that it’s usually your friends and you zerging me. If you don’t beat a Sorc on your overpowered DK, especially in non co, you need to pick a new class. Would be happy to duel you again on cpwhere the match up is more fair. (Although still favors DK)

Good sir, spell reflect is a bs ability and should have hard counters to it. Knight slayer armor is a good start to counter dks but itemization should not be the answer.

All you are is a shield spamming sorc, so yea, took me a bit to run your magicka out.

You can counter dk wings with a *** ton of abilities, but you know what's bs, is shield spamming, there's no reason a sorc should be able to constantly spam 40k+ worth of shields.

As well as endless fury spam, your gd 40 mile stun, and implosion, which literally procs off every gd thing in the game.

All that *** should either be on a global cd.

All I spam is empowered ward. Tell ya what...you are so bad I will just stack resist gear and use a heal. Still afraid to come duel me?

bro you are a sorc and complaining about wings that cost 3k ish on a stam dk that only has 10k stam?
Are you even LA weaving curse, endless, frags, pulse, buffs?
dont event start with, "he is spamming wings"
the dude has 10k magic and he has to allocate majority of it into igneous upkeep and volatile

You can take these notes: You should be LA weaving everything so that you can reduce the chances of him reflecting a frag

LA> curse> LA> fury > la> rune cage> LA frag
why is a stam dk telling you how to play your class.. I think you just suck to be honest

My skill level or anyone else’s for that matter is irrelevant. It’s a bs mechanic and there need to be counters in game to it on projectile skills. It is a hard counter to ranged classes and dks can use staves and bows for ranged attacks. There should be nothing in game that doesn’t have hard counters. Kinda like damage shields and shield breaker. Or streak and gap closers.

uhh no you are wrong. skill level is a big factor. I am not a fan of talking to a wall, so please reread what I said, and give me a better response. What I advised is a comeplete work around on wings when fighting a stamdk

Actually I don’t owe your arrogant ass jack ***. I gave you the only response warranted to your post. It is and has been an I win button. It is worse with mag dks but still bad with stam dks. It needs more hard counters against it in game. Dks should be compensated with increased mobility if that is the case as it is currently part of their kit in no small part because of it.

The class that is meant for tanking that can't even compare to warden/templar for tankiness in PvP should become worse at tankiness in favor of mobility just because it'd be easier for your L2P issue ass to kill. Need I remind you that whilst wings are incredibly strong vs ranged classes, you have harness to stalemate back. And unlike wings, harness isn't useless vs melee builds.

Trust me if I could get a more universal defense I would take it in a heart beat. But until then, wings stays as is.

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Xarcus wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

DK’s wings and other reflective abilities should cost much more or removed from the game. It’s a silly I win button ability and with the current state of the game is not warranted. Range means nothing and dks can burst from melee range and from range with weapon abilities. Dks pay no price for survivability. Never have.

I guess you 're playing a 100% projectiles build (or something like that)

I don’t know if that’s relevant. What’s relevant is whether or not what I said is accurate.

its not accurate. force pulse, curse, mages wrath, SCR..... so many things go through reflect... not to mention there are times when frags/snipe will go through wings because ZOS.

wings is a very expensive ability, this is not something you can spam unless you build for it.

Build a dk, ill duel you on my sorc, and then we can see if you still feel the same way.

It’s a very expensive ability that costs about 3-3.5k mag. It can reflect completely without counter 4 abilities regardless of cost. The resource return on it is huge. The most important part about it is that there isn’t a counter in game to it. You say ways around it but there is a reason why you play your DK as opposed to your Sorc on the regular. It is the premier 1vx class. In your class you make the class shine more because you are a good player. In other cases wings is just an I win button. I am ok with it in game but there need to be more ways around it. Sorcs have no hard counter such as this to dks.

do me a favor and go on youtube, type in eso 1vx and find the first dk 1vx video that isnt from a cp camp, and has more than 3 people with more than 300 cp being 1vxed. now tell me how long ago it went up....

and if you want, ill duel you without wings. sure, the lack of my main defense against ranged is going to make it a harder fight, due to mag sorcs trying to stay are ranged, for obvious reasons, but the fight would be harder for you if you only used heals instead of wards.

Maikon wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

DK’s wings and other reflective abilities should cost much more or removed from the game. It’s a silly I win button ability and with the current state of the game is not warranted. Range means nothing and dks can burst from melee range and from range with weapon abilities. Dks pay no price for survivability. Never have.

4k for a meh self-heal(that can heal less than what it costs despite being a self only heal)
4k for just major mending(and a shield that is less than 1k, not even exaggerating)
almost 4k for reflect , which is the ''class defining'' ability.


Do you realize that I have to run extra magicka regen on my stamina Dk because of the absurd ability costs?
And do you even understand the concept of melee versus ranged? The burden of playing the equal of a turtle as a class? Wings might seem OP to someone in a 1v1 but they are pretty underpowered for open world use where it only takes two person to force you into spamming it till you go out of magicka.

Do you know why stamden excels and stamDk miserably fails, because unlike what you think Dks don't get free survivability, they actually pay a lot for it.. Guess who does get it for free though? Yes, wardens.

silly me expecting a typical magsorc main to understand what it feels to actually have sustain issues. You know what? Thats completely fine. Again, my fault for a proper argument with facts and supporting evidence. I'm not even angry at this point, I'm just sad. Can't you at least get a proper argument like ''oh hey look I'm a ranged magblade and I hate wings cause it counters my entire kit'', which is a fine argument that has its own logical answer to it, but yours is just.... I don't know how to put it.

Maikon wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Xarcus wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

DK’s wings and other reflective abilities should cost much more or removed from the game. It’s a silly I win button ability and with the current state of the game is not warranted. Range means nothing and dks can burst from melee range and from range with weapon abilities. Dks pay no price for survivability. Never have.

I guess you 're playing a 100% projectiles build (or something like that)

I don’t know if that’s relevant. What’s relevant is whether or not what I said is accurate.

its not accurate. force pulse, curse, mages wrath, SCR..... so many things go through reflect... not to mention there are times when frags/snipe will go through wings because ZOS.

wings is a very expensive ability, this is not something you can spam unless you build for it.

Build a dk, ill duel you on my sorc, and then we can see if you still feel the same way.

It’s a very expensive ability that costs about 3-3.5k mag. It can reflect completely without counter 4 abilities regardless of cost. The resource return on it is huge. The most important part about it is that there isn’t a counter in game to it. You say ways around it but there is a reason why you play your DK as opposed to your Sorc on the regular. It is the premier 1vx class. In your class you make the class shine more because you are a good player. In other cases wings is just an I win button. I am ok with it in game but there need to be more ways around it. Sorcs have no hard counter such as this to dks.

Yes, it is very expensive.

"It can reflect completely without counter 4 abilities" out of how many abilities in the game?

There are counters, melee, dots, force pulse, etc.

It is NOT the premier 1vX class, by any means.

There is nothing I Win about that skill.

"Sorcs have no hard counters against this" is just a sad excuse, because from my experience against you in pvp, you are one of the worst sorcs out there.

L2P good sir, and stop hard casting frags, that might help.

Yes we did have a 1v1 that you won. Took you a lot longer than it should a rank 40 DK. Other than that it’s usually your friends and you zerging me. If you don’t beat a Sorc on your overpowered DK, especially in non co, you need to pick a new class. Would be happy to duel you again on cpwhere the match up is more fair. (Although still favors DK)

Good sir, spell reflect is a bs ability and should have hard counters to it. Knight slayer armor is a good start to counter dks but itemization should not be the answer.

All you are is a shield spamming sorc, so yea, took me a bit to run your magicka out.

You can counter dk wings with a *** ton of abilities, but you know what's bs, is shield spamming, there's no reason a sorc should be able to constantly spam 40k+ worth of shields.

As well as endless fury spam, your gd 40 mile stun, and implosion, which literally procs off every gd thing in the game.

All that *** should either be on a global cd, or have a cast time.

So don't talk about a single dk skill that reflects 4 things out of every skill in the game.

They are on a global cool down, THE global cool down. asking for any other hard cool downs goes against the eso combat system.

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Xarcus wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

DK’s wings and other reflective abilities should cost much more or removed from the game. It’s a silly I win button ability and with the current state of the game is not warranted. Range means nothing and dks can burst from melee range and from range with weapon abilities. Dks pay no price for survivability. Never have.

I guess you 're playing a 100% projectiles build (or something like that)

I don’t know if that’s relevant. What’s relevant is whether or not what I said is accurate.

its not accurate. force pulse, curse, mages wrath, SCR..... so many things go through reflect... not to mention there are times when frags/snipe will go through wings because ZOS.

wings is a very expensive ability, this is not something you can spam unless you build for it.

Build a dk, ill duel you on my sorc, and then we can see if you still feel the same way.

It’s a very expensive ability that costs about 3-3.5k mag. It can reflect completely without counter 4 abilities regardless of cost. The resource return on it is huge. The most important part about it is that there isn’t a counter in game to it. You say ways around it but there is a reason why you play your DK as opposed to your Sorc on the regular. It is the premier 1vx class. In your class you make the class shine more because you are a good player. In other cases wings is just an I win button. I am ok with it in game but there need to be more ways around it. Sorcs have no hard counter such as this to dks.

do me a favor and go on youtube, type in eso 1vx and find the first dk 1vx video that isnt from a cp camp, and has more than 3 people with more than 300 cp being 1vxed. now tell me how long ago it went up....

and if you want, ill duel you without wings. sure, the lack of my main defense against ranged is going to make it a harder fight, due to mag sorcs trying to stay are ranged, for obvious reasons, but the fight would be harder for you if you only used heals instead of wards.

Maikon wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

DK’s wings and other reflective abilities should cost much more or removed from the game. It’s a silly I win button ability and with the current state of the game is not warranted. Range means nothing and dks can burst from melee range and from range with weapon abilities. Dks pay no price for survivability. Never have.

4k for a meh self-heal(that can heal less than what it costs despite being a self only heal)
4k for just major mending(and a shield that is less than 1k, not even exaggerating)
almost 4k for reflect , which is the ''class defining'' ability.


Do you realize that I have to run extra magicka regen on my stamina Dk because of the absurd ability costs?
And do you even understand the concept of melee versus ranged? The burden of playing the equal of a turtle as a class? Wings might seem OP to someone in a 1v1 but they are pretty underpowered for open world use where it only takes two person to force you into spamming it till you go out of magicka.

Do you know why stamden excels and stamDk miserably fails, because unlike what you think Dks don't get free survivability, they actually pay a lot for it.. Guess who does get it for free though? Yes, wardens.

silly me expecting a typical magsorc main to understand what it feels to actually have sustain issues. You know what? Thats completely fine. Again, my fault for a proper argument with facts and supporting evidence. I'm not even angry at this point, I'm just sad. Can't you at least get a proper argument like ''oh hey look I'm a ranged magblade and I hate wings cause it counters my entire kit'', which is a fine argument that has its own logical answer to it, but yours is just.... I don't know how to put it.

Maikon wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Xarcus wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

DK’s wings and other reflective abilities should cost much more or removed from the game. It’s a silly I win button ability and with the current state of the game is not warranted. Range means nothing and dks can burst from melee range and from range with weapon abilities. Dks pay no price for survivability. Never have.

I guess you 're playing a 100% projectiles build (or something like that)

I don’t know if that’s relevant. What’s relevant is whether or not what I said is accurate.

its not accurate. force pulse, curse, mages wrath, SCR..... so many things go through reflect... not to mention there are times when frags/snipe will go through wings because ZOS.

wings is a very expensive ability, this is not something you can spam unless you build for it.

Build a dk, ill duel you on my sorc, and then we can see if you still feel the same way.

It’s a very expensive ability that costs about 3-3.5k mag. It can reflect completely without counter 4 abilities regardless of cost. The resource return on it is huge. The most important part about it is that there isn’t a counter in game to it. You say ways around it but there is a reason why you play your DK as opposed to your Sorc on the regular. It is the premier 1vx class. In your class you make the class shine more because you are a good player. In other cases wings is just an I win button. I am ok with it in game but there need to be more ways around it. Sorcs have no hard counter such as this to dks.

Yes, it is very expensive.

"It can reflect completely without counter 4 abilities" out of how many abilities in the game?

There are counters, melee, dots, force pulse, etc.

It is NOT the premier 1vX class, by any means.

There is nothing I Win about that skill.

"Sorcs have no hard counters against this" is just a sad excuse, because from my experience against you in pvp, you are one of the worst sorcs out there.

L2P good sir, and stop hard casting frags, that might help.

Yes we did have a 1v1 that you won. Took you a lot longer than it should a rank 40 DK. Other than that it’s usually your friends and you zerging me. If you don’t beat a Sorc on your overpowered DK, especially in non co, you need to pick a new class. Would be happy to duel you again on cpwhere the match up is more fair. (Although still favors DK)

Good sir, spell reflect is a bs ability and should have hard counters to it. Knight slayer armor is a good start to counter dks but itemization should not be the answer.

All you are is a shield spamming sorc, so yea, took me a bit to run your magicka out.

You can counter dk wings with a *** ton of abilities, but you know what's bs, is shield spamming, there's no reason a sorc should be able to constantly spam 40k+ worth of shields.

As well as endless fury spam, your gd 40 mile stun, and implosion, which literally procs off every gd thing in the game.

All that *** should either be on a global cd, or have a cast time.

So don't talk about a single dk skill that reflects 4 things out of every skill in the game.

They are on a global cool down, THE global cool down. asking for any other hard cool downs goes against the eso combat system.

Nope please duel with wings. It’s in your kit. That still isn’t the point. It’s poor balancing and like anything else in game should have hard counters to it. Not ways around it. Hard counters to it. Just like streak/frags/stealth etc.

wings has a hard counter in its cost. its super expensive to keep up, and so many things go through it. When i play mag sorc, i laugh when i see a dk put up wings, because I curse-mages wrath-crushing shock-streak through them. if that doesnt work, alot of dks will have their wings down by that point, so frags and then execute.

a simple light attack crushing shock rotation is the most annoying thing to fight on a dk, because the sorc is bouncing away from you and spamming this, so you cant hit them, while they can hit you. mag Dk is MUCH less mobile than sorc, and thus they need a counter when people run from them and spam range. they dont have the purge/raw heals templar has, so they need some way to avoid that damage. You think its annoying having 1-2 of your abilites reflected? try not being able to attack because they are constantly out of range. or fight a mag NB that cloaks after every attack....

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Xarcus wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

DK’s wings and other reflective abilities should cost much more or removed from the game. It’s a silly I win button ability and with the current state of the game is not warranted. Range means nothing and dks can burst from melee range and from range with weapon abilities. Dks pay no price for survivability. Never have.

I guess you 're playing a 100% projectiles build (or something like that)

I don’t know if that’s relevant. What’s relevant is whether or not what I said is accurate.

its not accurate. force pulse, curse, mages wrath, SCR..... so many things go through reflect... not to mention there are times when frags/snipe will go through wings because ZOS.

wings is a very expensive ability, this is not something you can spam unless you build for it.

Build a dk, ill duel you on my sorc, and then we can see if you still feel the same way.

It’s a very expensive ability that costs about 3-3.5k mag. It can reflect completely without counter 4 abilities regardless of cost. The resource return on it is huge. The most important part about it is that there isn’t a counter in game to it. You say ways around it but there is a reason why you play your DK as opposed to your Sorc on the regular. It is the premier 1vx class. In your class you make the class shine more because you are a good player. In other cases wings is just an I win button. I am ok with it in game but there need to be more ways around it. Sorcs have no hard counter such as this to dks.

do me a favor and go on youtube, type in eso 1vx and find the first dk 1vx video that isnt from a cp camp, and has more than 3 people with more than 300 cp being 1vxed. now tell me how long ago it went up....

and if you want, ill duel you without wings. sure, the lack of my main defense against ranged is going to make it a harder fight, due to mag sorcs trying to stay are ranged, for obvious reasons, but the fight would be harder for you if you only used heals instead of wards.

Maikon wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

DK’s wings and other reflective abilities should cost much more or removed from the game. It’s a silly I win button ability and with the current state of the game is not warranted. Range means nothing and dks can burst from melee range and from range with weapon abilities. Dks pay no price for survivability. Never have.

4k for a meh self-heal(that can heal less than what it costs despite being a self only heal)
4k for just major mending(and a shield that is less than 1k, not even exaggerating)
almost 4k for reflect , which is the ''class defining'' ability.


Do you realize that I have to run extra magicka regen on my stamina Dk because of the absurd ability costs?
And do you even understand the concept of melee versus ranged? The burden of playing the equal of a turtle as a class? Wings might seem OP to someone in a 1v1 but they are pretty underpowered for open world use where it only takes two person to force you into spamming it till you go out of magicka.

Do you know why stamden excels and stamDk miserably fails, because unlike what you think Dks don't get free survivability, they actually pay a lot for it.. Guess who does get it for free though? Yes, wardens.

silly me expecting a typical magsorc main to understand what it feels to actually have sustain issues. You know what? Thats completely fine. Again, my fault for a proper argument with facts and supporting evidence. I'm not even angry at this point, I'm just sad. Can't you at least get a proper argument like ''oh hey look I'm a ranged magblade and I hate wings cause it counters my entire kit'', which is a fine argument that has its own logical answer to it, but yours is just.... I don't know how to put it.

Maikon wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Xarcus wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

DK’s wings and other reflective abilities should cost much more or removed from the game. It’s a silly I win button ability and with the current state of the game is not warranted. Range means nothing and dks can burst from melee range and from range with weapon abilities. Dks pay no price for survivability. Never have.

I guess you 're playing a 100% projectiles build (or something like that)

I don’t know if that’s relevant. What’s relevant is whether or not what I said is accurate.

its not accurate. force pulse, curse, mages wrath, SCR..... so many things go through reflect... not to mention there are times when frags/snipe will go through wings because ZOS.

wings is a very expensive ability, this is not something you can spam unless you build for it.

Build a dk, ill duel you on my sorc, and then we can see if you still feel the same way.

It’s a very expensive ability that costs about 3-3.5k mag. It can reflect completely without counter 4 abilities regardless of cost. The resource return on it is huge. The most important part about it is that there isn’t a counter in game to it. You say ways around it but there is a reason why you play your DK as opposed to your Sorc on the regular. It is the premier 1vx class. In your class you make the class shine more because you are a good player. In other cases wings is just an I win button. I am ok with it in game but there need to be more ways around it. Sorcs have no hard counter such as this to dks.

Yes, it is very expensive.

"It can reflect completely without counter 4 abilities" out of how many abilities in the game?

There are counters, melee, dots, force pulse, etc.

It is NOT the premier 1vX class, by any means.

There is nothing I Win about that skill.

"Sorcs have no hard counters against this" is just a sad excuse, because from my experience against you in pvp, you are one of the worst sorcs out there.

L2P good sir, and stop hard casting frags, that might help.

Yes we did have a 1v1 that you won. Took you a lot longer than it should a rank 40 DK. Other than that it’s usually your friends and you zerging me. If you don’t beat a Sorc on your overpowered DK, especially in non co, you need to pick a new class. Would be happy to duel you again on cpwhere the match up is more fair. (Although still favors DK)

Good sir, spell reflect is a bs ability and should have hard counters to it. Knight slayer armor is a good start to counter dks but itemization should not be the answer.

All you are is a shield spamming sorc, so yea, took me a bit to run your magicka out.

You can counter dk wings with a *** ton of abilities, but you know what's bs, is shield spamming, there's no reason a sorc should be able to constantly spam 40k+ worth of shields.

As well as endless fury spam, your gd 40 mile stun, and implosion, which literally procs off every gd thing in the game.

All that *** should either be on a global cd, or have a cast time.

So don't talk about a single dk skill that reflects 4 things out of every skill in the game.

They are on a global cool down, THE global cool down. asking for any other hard cool downs goes against the eso combat system.

Nope please duel with wings. It’s in your kit. That still isn’t the point. It’s poor balancing and like anything else in game should have hard counters to it. Not ways around it. Hard counters to it. Just like streak/frags/stealth etc.

If only there was some kind of damage in the game other than the reflectable projectiles.

Case in point, Crushing Shock hurts. A lot. Thanks to the Destro passive. It may not kill you by itself but it sure does hurt a lot which forces DKs to block.

You also mention that Rune Cage is somehow useless on DKs. DKs don't dodge roll a lot and this is even true for MA StamDK. They may block a lot but Rune Cage is unblockable. Burst window can be created. Just like how DKs used to create their own burst window against shield stacking Sorcs, you create burst window to burst down DKs. Both are lengthy process. To say that DKs completely nullify burst combo is not true. It is all about timing the burst.

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Case in point, Crushing Shock hurts. A lot. Thanks to the Destro passive. It may not kill you by itself but it sure does hurt a lot which forces DKs to block.

You also mention that Rune Cage is somehow useless on DKs. DKs don't dodge roll a lot and this is even true for MA StamDK. They may block a lot but Rune Cage is unblockable. Burst window can be created. Just like how DKs used to create their own burst window against shield stacking Sorcs, you create burst window to burst down DKs. Both are lengthy process. To say that DKs completely nullify burst combo is not true. It is all about timing the burst.

The point is, ranged builds - IF they are lucky to slot crushing shock - and that's a big 'if', since most sorcs will run reach for a combined anytime+cc since they are too bar-space-limited to have separate abilities for those functions - and most magblades would run their spammable - as its just better vs everyone else..

Then, as you say, it won't kill anything by itself - but the point is - it IS by itself when the rest of the ranged toolkit is reflected. It doesn't even get light-attack weaves to help it. I mean you don't even need to reflect every frag - you just need to reflect a few and the sorc will stop using them because of the damage he's doing to himself.. Please don't keep under-estimating the value of the reflect part..

No, I didn't say cage was useless on DK's.. In fact it's more useful vs DK's than pretty-much any other class - especially if the DK is a block build. I was saying that its pretty useless in general - vs the majority of the enemies you'll meet. Combine that with the bar-space issues sorcs have - and it becomes a no-brainer to drop it. Even vs block builds - they can still dodge it, just like every non-block build will still block meteor - and how easy is that?

Creating burst windows, though... Sorc is the ONE class that cannot do this. There is no sudden burst with CC from nowhere. You can see its coming 3 seconds away with the curse timing. If cage is involved - as you say is necessary (and is also very rare now) - you can see that coming too 1.5 seconds in advance. Even if you don't want to dodge the cage, you can make sure you have wings up at that time so that a large part of that burst is reflected. In fact a clever DK would use this to create his own burst window 3 seconds after being cursed - with the sorc's own frag being part of that burst! Maybe even overload too, if you're lucky!
Can't think of much worse for a sorc than getting hit while completing his burst - as his shields are low then - with leap, frags and overload all at the same time!

fwiw, my offensive toolkit is curse, crushing-shock, overload, frags, light-attacks. (and degeneration ticks if they're worth counting - that's really for major sorcery and empowering overload). No space for an execute - or a CC. Damage is done via high sustained damage with higher bursts via overload weaves.
When I fight a DK, I cannot use my ulti. I cannot use my burst ability (frags). I eat my own light-attacks. I can curse every 4 seconds and spam crushing shock. If I were using reach instead of shock (as most do), I'd have nothing but strong language (curse).
In comparison with Warden's shimmering.. I can unload on that with everything to try and burn it down. Yeah, its crazy strong defensively - but at least my whole arsenal is useable..!

Again, I think wings are fine, and shimmering is too strong - but you guys really underplay the strength of wings.

Holy crap. How did a funny post about wings giving fall dmg reduction escalated so fast into this *** show of a ''blah blah blah nerf this! No, blah blah blah nerf this instead!! So OP!'' Sometimes this forum depresses me so much.

Back to original post : DK wings don't give fall damage because they're lead wings. That's how they pprotect you. If fact, with all this added weight, if anything, we should take additional fall damage. And land Dazed and Confused. Like those guys in their Zeppelin.

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Swomp23 wrote: »

Holy crap. How did a funny post about wings giving fall dmg reduction escalated so fast into this *** show of a ''blah blah blah nerf this! No, blah blah blah nerf this instead!! So OP!'' Sometimes this forum depresses me so much.

Back to original post : DK wings don't give fall damage because they're lead wings. That's how they pprotect you. If fact, with all this added weight, if anything, we should take additional fall damage. And land Dazed and Confused. Like those guys in their Zeppelin.

So A DK got wings so powerfull that flapping them once is enough to reflect back arrows ,projectiles and stuff , but it can't slow down his own fall?

I'm afraid that DK might have morbid obesity.

Lol. If you think about it, to be powerful enough to reflect snipe's .50cal, they have to be pretty strong... therefore, thick and heavy.

That being said, I would LOVE seeing obese DKs strolling around in their power wheelchairs

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Case in point, Crushing Shock hurts. A lot. Thanks to the Destro passive. It may not kill you by itself but it sure does hurt a lot which forces DKs to block.

You also mention that Rune Cage is somehow useless on DKs. DKs don't dodge roll a lot and this is even true for MA StamDK. They may block a lot but Rune Cage is unblockable. Burst window can be created. Just like how DKs used to create their own burst window against shield stacking Sorcs, you create burst window to burst down DKs. Both are lengthy process. To say that DKs completely nullify burst combo is not true. It is all about timing the burst.

The point is, ranged builds - IF they are lucky to slot crushing shock - and that's a big 'if', since most sorcs will run reach for a combined anytime+cc since they are too bar-space-limited to have separate abilities for those functions - and most magblades would run their spammable - as its just better vs everyone else..

Then, as you say, it won't kill anything by itself - but the point is - it IS by itself when the rest of the ranged toolkit is reflected. It doesn't even get light-attack weaves to help it. I mean you don't even need to reflect every frag - you just need to reflect a few and the sorc will stop using them because of the damage he's doing to himself.. Please don't keep under-estimating the value of the reflect part..

No, I didn't say cage was useless on DK's.. In fact it's more useful vs DK's than pretty-much any other class - especially if the DK is a block build. I was saying that its pretty useless in general - vs the majority of the enemies you'll meet. Combine that with the bar-space issues sorcs have - and it becomes a no-brainer to drop it. Even vs block builds - they can still dodge it, just like every non-block build will still block meteor - and how easy is that?

Creating burst windows, though... Sorc is the ONE class that cannot do this. There is no sudden burst with CC from nowhere. You can see its coming 3 seconds away with the curse timing. If cage is involved - as you say is necessary (and is also very rare now) - you can see that coming too 1.5 seconds in advance. Even if you don't want to dodge the cage, you can make sure you have wings up at that time so that a large part of that burst is reflected. In fact a clever DK would use this to create his own burst window 3 seconds after being cursed - with the sorc's own frag being part of that burst! Maybe even overload too, if you're lucky!
Can't think of much worse for a sorc than getting hit while completing his burst - as his shields are low then - with leap, frags and overload all at the same time!

fwiw, my offensive toolkit is curse, crushing-shock, overload, frags, light-attacks. (and degeneration ticks if they're worth counting - that's really for major sorcery and empowering overload). No space for an execute - or a CC. Damage is done via high sustained damage with higher bursts via overload weaves.
When I fight a DK, I cannot use my ulti. I cannot use my burst ability (frags). I eat my own light-attacks. I can curse every 4 seconds and spam crushing shock. If I were using reach instead of shock (as most do), I'd have nothing but strong language (curse).
In comparison with Warden's shimmering.. I can unload on that with everything to try and burn it down. Yeah, its crazy strong defensively - but at least my whole arsenal is useable..!

Again, I think wings are fine, and shimmering is too strong - but you guys really underplay the strength of wings.

If that's your only offense, you are playing it wrong.... i haven't mained sorc in a while, but i still know the basic combo... which includes mages wrath because of the delayed execute... let me give you a tip.. mines + streak... all of a sudden the dk can't hit you...

When most people spam crushing shock on me, i have to start blocking, because it HURTS. It may not take away half of my health in one shot, but it def forces me on the defensive side for a bit. curse also hits for alot, and is unblockable...

Is sorc countered by dk? yes. is it a hard counter? no.

Except its changed - a lot. There isn't bar-space for the basic combo now - not to mention that an execute proccing at 20% isn't gonna help if you can't get them there in the first place :-)