DRAGONKNIGHT REFLECT a little too OP in pvp

kpittsniperb14_ESO · November 2018

DK can reflect almost 80% of magicka range skills + inferno light attacks + Heavy

Player look fool using inferno staff against them, force shock works which even can not be used with light attack![/quote]

You have lightning destro and restro as channeled heavy attacks which bypass reflect so 2 of 4 staves. AOE, AOE and more AOE, force pulse etc. The DK class is designed as a counter to range heavy specs and this is not in dispute. Mag DK is in an ok place right now after being severely gimped for YEARS after it's opness at launch until 1.5. It is a spec that requires you to invest in all 3 resource pools, invest in sustain, has low mobility, no execute, no escape, little to no burst outside of ultimate, low sustain outside of battle roar, easily purged damage which is mostly dot based. What it does have is control with great CC and tankiness against range which the class needs to even function and reflective scale is an essential skill for this purpose. If ZOS allows any more projectiles to bypass reflect then the skill really has lost any value and won't justify cost which is already arguably high for what the skill actually does. Shimmering shield is a much better skill imho.

Nightblades and Sorcs have mobility and the ability to escape and reset the fight which skills like bolt escape, cloak and shade provide...that is your counter. I certainly wouldn't advocate nerfs to these skills because I understand how those classes are designed regardless of how annoying those skills can be if in the hands of a skilled player. Magplars purge 80% of Mag DK damage and heal to full resetting the fight. These classes are tough for mag DK to take down if played well, so standoff? If you are being killed by a Mag DK in 1v1 on these classes then that is truly on you.

Sinolai · November 2018

Ner nightblades too. Incap and invisibilty are too cheesy

jcm2606 · November 2018

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Look I main an Archer Reflect is just fine honestly could use a buff like a longer duration to 6 seconds like a shield has. Again I main a Stamina Archer Nightblade.

The duration is already 6 seconds. The main problem with the "duration" is how few projectiles it reflects.

Zer0oo wrote: »

Funny how some players do not see how it is a problem that one skill can shut down over 90% of all range attacks. The only counter play this skill has is not to use range attacks.

Wings against range players:
reflects basic light attacks(destro staff/bow/ resto) - that alone ~20% damage reduction if the main weapon is reflectable

reflects all range dots - ~ another 20% damage reduction (mag nb, mag templer, master staff sorc, mag warden, any stam build with a bow for poison inc)

reflects a lot of range ccs- reach, javelin, draining shot,

reflects 80% of all spam-able skills - hidden blade, snipe, reach, funnel

Wings are worth it against most players, especial mag players. And, do not come with the argument they are expensive since for what they do they are quite cheap: you do not have to heal the otherwise inc range damage and you may even get additional outcoming damage. It is a really strong counter to all range skills even if the player is at melee range.

There is only one situation where wings seem not so good and that is when you got highly outnumbered since so many players will bring the wings quite fast to the max number of reflects.

Almost like how cloak can shut down anything but AOE's, basically forcing players to do the same, slot a skill that counters it?

Almost like how Shimmering Shield actually does the same, but works better in that it is an amount of damage it absorbs in total, not a flat amount of projectiles, while returning magicka for each projectile absorbed, and granting Major Heroism, and being even cheaper, and having less exceptions?

Almost like how (pre nerf) damage shields shut down anything but oblivion damage, forcing players to keep pressure up to punch through them?

The only class that doesn't have something similar is Templar. Every other class has something just as strong as, if not stronger than wings. Wings is not some special thing that completely breaks balance.

And, yes, wings is expensive for what it actually offers: an inferior version of Shimmering Shield that reflects attacks back instead of absorbing them, except it also works for fewer projectiles, is prone to bugging out and letting some projectiles through, and has a flat limit of 4 that means it can drop the moment you cast it.

It amazes me that people are pointing out wings for being "broken", yet Shimmering Shield grants the same level of projectile immunity, that works against all projectiles reliably, while being cheaper, returning magicka on each projectile absorbed making it even cheaper, and granting Major Heroism, increasing ultimate generation.

But yeah, go ahead and nerf wings, when DK has already been nerfed into the ground, and is only becoming better because you guys keep asking for other classes to be nerfed into the ground.

Kadoin · November 2018

Zer0oo wrote: »

Funny how some players do not see how it is a problem that one skill can shut down over 90% of all range attacks. The only counter play this skill has is not to use range attacks.

Wings against range players:
reflects basic light attacks(destro staff/bow/ resto) - that alone ~20% damage reduction if the main weapon is reflectable

reflects all range dots - ~ another 20% damage reduction (mag nb, mag templer, master staff sorc, mag warden, any stam build with a bow for poison inc)

reflects a lot of range ccs- reach, javelin, draining shot,

reflects 80% of all spam-able skills - hidden blade, snipe, reach, funnel

Wings are worth it against most players, especial mag players. And, do not come with the argument they are expensive since for what they do they are quite cheap: you do not have to heal the otherwise inc range damage and you may even get additional outcoming damage. It is a really strong counter to all range skills even if the player is at melee range.

There is only one situation where wings seem not so good and that is when you got highly outnumbered since so many players will bring the wings quite fast to the max number of reflects.

Absorb magic works better at shutting down magic users and it heals + even works on many other magic skills you'd probably think it shouldn't, AND defensive stance works similarly to wings, has 1/2 the cost, provides a better passive benefit and lasts over 5x longer, and yet no one is crying about either of those or shield ult.

If wings were nerfed today, people would simply move to the SnB line and still get what they want anyway. Guess what? SnB skills are actually superior to wings right now...You'd only be hurting mag DKs that don't use SnB, that also probably run light armor and push even more DKs to become tanks much like templar.

Lord_Eomer · November 2018

kpittsniperb14_ESO wrote: »

DK can reflect almost 80% of magicka range skills + inferno light attacks + Heavy

Player look fool using inferno staff against them, force shock works which even can not be used with light attack!

You have lightning destro and restro as channeled heavy attacks which bypass reflect so 2 of 4 staves. AOE, AOE and more AOE, force pulse etc. The DK class is designed as a counter to range heavy specs and this is not in dispute. Mag DK is in an ok place right now after being severely gimped for YEARS after it's opness at launch until 1.5. It is a spec that requires you to invest in all 3 resource pools, invest in sustain, has low mobility, no execute, no escape, little to no burst outside of ultimate, low sustain outside of battle roar, easily purged damage which is mostly dot based. What it does have is control with great CC and tankiness against range which the class needs to even function and reflective scale is an essential skill for this purpose. If ZOS allows any more projectiles to bypass reflect then the skill really has lost any value and won't justify cost which is already arguably high for what the skill actually does. Shimmering shield is a much better skill imho.

Nightblades and Sorcs have mobility and the ability to escape and reset the fight which skills like bolt escape, cloak and shade provide...that is your counter. I certainly wouldn't advocate nerfs to these skills because I understand how those classes are designed regardless of how annoying those skills can be if in the hands of a skilled player. Magplars purge 80% of Mag DK damage and heal to full resetting the fight. These classes are tough for mag DK to take down if played well, so standoff? If you are being killed by a Mag DK in 1v1 on these classes then that is truly on you.

So u want Magicka to run force shock and lighting staff for fighting dk? Indeed a poor solution.

Wings need a cool down or 2 reflections limit per cast

Lord_Eomer · November 2018

Sinolai wrote: »

Ner nightblades too. Incap and invisibilty are too cheesy

Look at that cheap flying ultimate aoe hitting dam hard and stealing kills in BG!

jcm2606 · November 2018

I love how everybody is just hating on wings, while Shimmering Shield is just sitting on the corner, laughing quietly at himself.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · November 2018

here we go again lets nerf the most nerfed class in the game, wings onl reflects 4 things and how pvp is now it really does not help when getting attacked by 20+ on 1, yeah lets nerf the most nerfed class, yep lets make the class unplayable

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · November 2018

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

kpittsniperb14_ESO wrote: »

DK can reflect almost 80% of magicka range skills + inferno light attacks + Heavy

Player look fool using inferno staff against them, force shock works which even can not be used with light attack!

You have lightning destro and restro as channeled heavy attacks which bypass reflect so 2 of 4 staves. AOE, AOE and more AOE, force pulse etc. The DK class is designed as a counter to range heavy specs and this is not in dispute. Mag DK is in an ok place right now after being severely gimped for YEARS after it's opness at launch until 1.5. It is a spec that requires you to invest in all 3 resource pools, invest in sustain, has low mobility, no execute, no escape, little to no burst outside of ultimate, low sustain outside of battle roar, easily purged damage which is mostly dot based. What it does have is control with great CC and tankiness against range which the class needs to even function and reflective scale is an essential skill for this purpose. If ZOS allows any more projectiles to bypass reflect then the skill really has lost any value and won't justify cost which is already arguably high for what the skill actually does. Shimmering shield is a much better skill imho.

Nightblades and Sorcs have mobility and the ability to escape and reset the fight which skills like bolt escape, cloak and shade provide...that is your counter. I certainly wouldn't advocate nerfs to these skills because I understand how those classes are designed regardless of how annoying those skills can be if in the hands of a skilled player. Magplars purge 80% of Mag DK damage and heal to full resetting the fight. These classes are tough for mag DK to take down if played well, so standoff? If you are being killed by a Mag DK in 1v1 on these classes then that is truly on you.

So u want Magicka to run force shock and lighting staff for fighting dk? Indeed a poor solution.

Wings need a cool down or 2 reflections limit per cast

force shock i run and have a lighting bar on bk with flame staff on front it works great

mayasunrising · November 2018

Noctus wrote: »

while we are at nerfing shields tbh sorc shield never annoyed me as much as the dk reflect. there are only a few skills that counter that and as a magicka user ur crippled.... (u cant use 50 % or more of ur bar) if u compare eclipse from templars to it for example atleast ur skill still goes through.... against a dk fighting on a magicka character seems somewhat pointless.( they regenerate very fast and u cant touch them while reflect is on unless with destruction staff beam but that alone will do nothing )
pls increase the cost or change the effect specific for pvp. or is there a weakness im not seeing ?

I use streak to stun and overload heavy attack. It burns down most DKs alarmingly fast, and is way satisfying. =P

Lord_Eomer · November 2018

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

kpittsniperb14_ESO wrote: »

DK can reflect almost 80% of magicka range skills + inferno light attacks + Heavy

Player look fool using inferno staff against them, force shock works which even can not be used with light attack!

You have lightning destro and restro as channeled heavy attacks which bypass reflect so 2 of 4 staves. AOE, AOE and more AOE, force pulse etc. The DK class is designed as a counter to range heavy specs and this is not in dispute. Mag DK is in an ok place right now after being severely gimped for YEARS after it's opness at launch until 1.5. It is a spec that requires you to invest in all 3 resource pools, invest in sustain, has low mobility, no execute, no escape, little to no burst outside of ultimate, low sustain outside of battle roar, easily purged damage which is mostly dot based. What it does have is control with great CC and tankiness against range which the class needs to even function and reflective scale is an essential skill for this purpose. If ZOS allows any more projectiles to bypass reflect then the skill really has lost any value and won't justify cost which is already arguably high for what the skill actually does. Shimmering shield is a much better skill imho.

Nightblades and Sorcs have mobility and the ability to escape and reset the fight which skills like bolt escape, cloak and shade provide...that is your counter. I certainly wouldn't advocate nerfs to these skills because I understand how those classes are designed regardless of how annoying those skills can be if in the hands of a skilled player. Magplars purge 80% of Mag DK damage and heal to full resetting the fight. These classes are tough for mag DK to take down if played well, so standoff? If you are being killed by a Mag DK in 1v1 on these classes then that is truly on you.

So u want Magicka to run force shock and lighting staff for fighting dk? Indeed a poor solution.

Wings need a cool down or 2 reflections limit per cast

force shock i run and have a lighting bar on bk with flame staff on front it works great

How do you get heals then?

Have to use restro anyway these anwers makes no sense. DK has perfect toolkit for everything, some kind of adjustments are needed.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · November 2018

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

kpittsniperb14_ESO wrote: »

DK can reflect almost 80% of magicka range skills + inferno light attacks + Heavy

Player look fool using inferno staff against them, force shock works which even can not be used with light attack!

You have lightning destro and restro as channeled heavy attacks which bypass reflect so 2 of 4 staves. AOE, AOE and more AOE, force pulse etc. The DK class is designed as a counter to range heavy specs and this is not in dispute. Mag DK is in an ok place right now after being severely gimped for YEARS after it's opness at launch until 1.5. It is a spec that requires you to invest in all 3 resource pools, invest in sustain, has low mobility, no execute, no escape, little to no burst outside of ultimate, low sustain outside of battle roar, easily purged damage which is mostly dot based. What it does have is control with great CC and tankiness against range which the class needs to even function and reflective scale is an essential skill for this purpose. If ZOS allows any more projectiles to bypass reflect then the skill really has lost any value and won't justify cost which is already arguably high for what the skill actually does. Shimmering shield is a much better skill imho.

Nightblades and Sorcs have mobility and the ability to escape and reset the fight which skills like bolt escape, cloak and shade provide...that is your counter. I certainly wouldn't advocate nerfs to these skills because I understand how those classes are designed regardless of how annoying those skills can be if in the hands of a skilled player. Magplars purge 80% of Mag DK damage and heal to full resetting the fight. These classes are tough for mag DK to take down if played well, so standoff? If you are being killed by a Mag DK in 1v1 on these classes then that is truly on you.

So u want Magicka to run force shock and lighting staff for fighting dk? Indeed a poor solution.

Wings need a cool down or 2 reflections limit per cast

force shock i run and have a lighting bar on bk with flame staff on front it works great

How do you get heals then?

Have to use restro anyway these anwers makes no sense. DK has perfect toolkit for everything, some kind of adjustments are needed.

green dragon blood, burning embers, pots, etc and group also helps with that

Lord_Eomer · November 2018

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

kpittsniperb14_ESO wrote: »

DK can reflect almost 80% of magicka range skills + inferno light attacks + Heavy

Player look fool using inferno staff against them, force shock works which even can not be used with light attack!

You have lightning destro and restro as channeled heavy attacks which bypass reflect so 2 of 4 staves. AOE, AOE and more AOE, force pulse etc. The DK class is designed as a counter to range heavy specs and this is not in dispute. Mag DK is in an ok place right now after being severely gimped for YEARS after it's opness at launch until 1.5. It is a spec that requires you to invest in all 3 resource pools, invest in sustain, has low mobility, no execute, no escape, little to no burst outside of ultimate, low sustain outside of battle roar, easily purged damage which is mostly dot based. What it does have is control with great CC and tankiness against range which the class needs to even function and reflective scale is an essential skill for this purpose. If ZOS allows any more projectiles to bypass reflect then the skill really has lost any value and won't justify cost which is already arguably high for what the skill actually does. Shimmering shield is a much better skill imho.

Nightblades and Sorcs have mobility and the ability to escape and reset the fight which skills like bolt escape, cloak and shade provide...that is your counter. I certainly wouldn't advocate nerfs to these skills because I understand how those classes are designed regardless of how annoying those skills can be if in the hands of a skilled player. Magplars purge 80% of Mag DK damage and heal to full resetting the fight. These classes are tough for mag DK to take down if played well, so standoff? If you are being killed by a Mag DK in 1v1 on these classes then that is truly on you.

So u want Magicka to run force shock and lighting staff for fighting dk? Indeed a poor solution.

Wings need a cool down or 2 reflections limit per cast

force shock i run and have a lighting bar on bk with flame staff on front it works great

How do you get heals then?

Have to use restro anyway these anwers makes no sense. DK has perfect toolkit for everything, some kind of adjustments are needed.

green dragon blood, burning embers, pots, etc and group also helps with that

Lol,

I am talking as MNB

See how many DK have options as u explained!

Reistr_the_Unbroken · November 2018

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

here we go again lets nerf the most nerfed class in the game, wings onl reflects 4 things and how pvp is now it really does not help when getting attacked by 20+ on 1, yeah lets nerf the most nerfed class, yep lets make the class unplayable

Nah m8 lets make every class unplayable, then see people whine and complain about nerfs- but yeah I 100% agree with you, and these nerf posts need to stop.

JobooAGS · November 2018

Leave dk alone, they are fine

cheops · November 2018

I just don't understand this attitude that the game must be adapted to suit YOUR single character. Make some alts and explore their possibilities and then use the right one according to the current meta and the task in hand.

sly007 · November 2018

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

while we are at nerfing shields tbh sorc shield never annoyed me as much as the dk reflect. there are only a few skills that counter that and as a magicka user ur crippled.... (u cant use 50 % or more of ur bar) if u compare eclipse from templars to it for example atleast ur skill still goes through.... against a dk fighting on a magicka character seems somewhat pointless.( they regenerate very fast and u cant touch them while reflect is on unless with destruction staff beam but that alone will do nothing )
pls increase the cost or change the effect specific for pvp. or is there a weakness im not seeing ?

Deplete it with fast weak hits. And don't forget that DK is melee/short-range build, and you sorc is long range, dk got a lot more fire incoming in group fights.. and if you talk about duels.. this game is "balanced" around group play, not about duels

People always forget that mag dk without wings can be kitted all day in cyrodiil.

ZarkingFrued · November 2018

No it is not. Its outrageously expensive, has a tiny up time, and you're just triggered cause you're a sorc. Sure wreck it as long as you give me a magicka vigor.

Lord_Eomer · November 2018

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

No it is not. Its outrageously expensive, has a tiny up time, and you're just triggered cause you're a sorc. Sure wreck it as long as you give me a magicka vigor.

DK toolkit have everything, stop pretending its fine. It need a balance in PVP Campaign and BG

Zer0oo · November 2018

jcm2606 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Look I main an Archer Reflect is just fine honestly could use a buff like a longer duration to 6 seconds like a shield has. Again I main a Stamina Archer Nightblade.

The duration is already 6 seconds. The main problem with the "duration" is how few projectiles it reflects.

Zer0oo wrote: »

Funny how some players do not see how it is a problem that one skill can shut down over 90% of all range attacks. The only counter play this skill has is not to use range attacks.

Wings against range players:
reflects basic light attacks(destro staff/bow/ resto) - that alone ~20% damage reduction if the main weapon is reflectable

reflects all range dots - ~ another 20% damage reduction (mag nb, mag templer, master staff sorc, mag warden, any stam build with a bow for poison inc)

reflects a lot of range ccs- reach, javelin, draining shot,

reflects 80% of all spam-able skills - hidden blade, snipe, reach, funnel

Wings are worth it against most players, especial mag players. And, do not come with the argument they are expensive since for what they do they are quite cheap: you do not have to heal the otherwise inc range damage and you may even get additional outcoming damage. It is a really strong counter to all range skills even if the player is at melee range.

There is only one situation where wings seem not so good and that is when you got highly outnumbered since so many players will bring the wings quite fast to the max number of reflects.

Almost like how cloak can shut down anything but AOE's, basically forcing players to do the same, slot a skill that counters it?

Almost like how Shimmering Shield actually does the same, but works better in that it is an amount of damage it absorbs in total, not a flat amount of projectiles, while returning magicka for each projectile absorbed, and granting Major Heroism, and being even cheaper, and having less exceptions?

Almost like how (pre nerf) damage shields shut down anything but oblivion damage, forcing players to keep pressure up to punch through them?

The only class that doesn't have something similar is Templar. Every other class has something just as strong as, if not stronger than wings. Wings is not some special thing that completely breaks balance.

And, yes, wings is expensive for what it actually offers: an inferior version of Shimmering Shield that reflects attacks back instead of absorbing them, except it also works for fewer projectiles, is prone to bugging out and letting some projectiles through, and has a flat limit of 4 that means it can drop the moment you cast it.

It amazes me that people are pointing out wings for being "broken", yet Shimmering Shield grants the same level of projectile immunity, that works against all projectiles reliably, while being cheaper, returning magicka on each projectile absorbed making it even cheaper, and granting Major Heroism, increasing ultimate generation.

But yeah, go ahead and nerf wings, when DK has already been nerfed into the ground, and is only becoming better because you guys keep asking for other classes to be nerfed into the ground.

What about this and what about that? Have you heard about Whataboutism?

Yes, the skills you mentioned are in some context strong but they have counters.
Cloak: you need to get out of cloak to attack and aoe pulls them out (still think this skill is too strong)
Shimmering: does just aborb it and not reflect so you can actually break through it, has a max on what it can absorb and it does not absorb secondary effects like cc,root, snare...
Streak: gap close, get movement speed, has stacking cost like no other skill in the game

Wings should be a strong skill, but it should have counters. It was designed that it reflects range attacks but it does more than that it reflects all attacks that could be used at range and a smart counter would be giving the skill a min distance where the attacker has to be before it can be reflected.

Tan9oSuccka · November 2018

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

No it is not. Its outrageously expensive, has a tiny up time, and you're just triggered cause you're a sorc. Sure wreck it as long as you give me a magicka vigor.

DK toolkit have everything, stop pretending its fine. It need a balance in PVP Campaign and BG

Oh does it? You’d think you’d see Dragonknights everywhere, right?

Nope. I played a solid three hours in Cyrodiil last night. Huge battles, small battles.

Saw one. ONE Dragonknight.

Lord_Eomer · November 2018

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

No it is not. Its outrageously expensive, has a tiny up time, and you're just triggered cause you're a sorc. Sure wreck it as long as you give me a magicka vigor.

DK toolkit have everything, stop pretending its fine. It need a balance in PVP Campaign and BG

Oh does it? You’d think you’d see Dragonknights everywhere, right?

Nope. I played a solid three hours in Cyrodiil last night. Huge battles, small battles.

Saw one. ONE Dragonknight.

well they are almost everywhere in PVP...

The Uninvited · November 2018

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

No it is not. Its outrageously expensive, has a tiny up time, and you're just triggered cause you're a sorc. Sure wreck it as long as you give me a magicka vigor.

DK toolkit have everything, stop pretending its fine. It need a balance in PVP Campaign and BG

Oh does it? You’d think you’d see Dragonknights everywhere, right?

Nope. I played a solid three hours in Cyrodiil last night. Huge battles, small battles.

Saw one. ONE Dragonknight.

This. If I look at PC EU Vivec, I see other classes way more than DK's and also doing better most of the time.

jcm2606 · November 2018

Zer0oo wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Look I main an Archer Reflect is just fine honestly could use a buff like a longer duration to 6 seconds like a shield has. Again I main a Stamina Archer Nightblade.

The duration is already 6 seconds. The main problem with the "duration" is how few projectiles it reflects.

Zer0oo wrote: »

Funny how some players do not see how it is a problem that one skill can shut down over 90% of all range attacks. The only counter play this skill has is not to use range attacks.

Wings against range players:
reflects basic light attacks(destro staff/bow/ resto) - that alone ~20% damage reduction if the main weapon is reflectable

reflects all range dots - ~ another 20% damage reduction (mag nb, mag templer, master staff sorc, mag warden, any stam build with a bow for poison inc)

reflects a lot of range ccs- reach, javelin, draining shot,

reflects 80% of all spam-able skills - hidden blade, snipe, reach, funnel

Wings are worth it against most players, especial mag players. And, do not come with the argument they are expensive since for what they do they are quite cheap: you do not have to heal the otherwise inc range damage and you may even get additional outcoming damage. It is a really strong counter to all range skills even if the player is at melee range.

There is only one situation where wings seem not so good and that is when you got highly outnumbered since so many players will bring the wings quite fast to the max number of reflects.

Almost like how cloak can shut down anything but AOE's, basically forcing players to do the same, slot a skill that counters it?

Almost like how Shimmering Shield actually does the same, but works better in that it is an amount of damage it absorbs in total, not a flat amount of projectiles, while returning magicka for each projectile absorbed, and granting Major Heroism, and being even cheaper, and having less exceptions?

Almost like how (pre nerf) damage shields shut down anything but oblivion damage, forcing players to keep pressure up to punch through them?

The only class that doesn't have something similar is Templar. Every other class has something just as strong as, if not stronger than wings. Wings is not some special thing that completely breaks balance.

And, yes, wings is expensive for what it actually offers: an inferior version of Shimmering Shield that reflects attacks back instead of absorbing them, except it also works for fewer projectiles, is prone to bugging out and letting some projectiles through, and has a flat limit of 4 that means it can drop the moment you cast it.

It amazes me that people are pointing out wings for being "broken", yet Shimmering Shield grants the same level of projectile immunity, that works against all projectiles reliably, while being cheaper, returning magicka on each projectile absorbed making it even cheaper, and granting Major Heroism, increasing ultimate generation.

But yeah, go ahead and nerf wings, when DK has already been nerfed into the ground, and is only becoming better because you guys keep asking for other classes to be nerfed into the ground.

What about this and what about that? Have you heard about Whataboutism?

Yes, the skills you mentioned are in some context strong but they have counters.
Cloak: you need to get out of cloak to attack and aoe pulls them out (still think this skill is too strong)
Shimmering: does just aborb it and not reflect so you can actually break through it, has a max on what it can absorb and it does not absorb secondary effects like cc,root, snare...
Streak: gap close, get movement speed, has stacking cost like no other skill in the game

Wings should be a strong skill, but it should have counters. It was designed that it reflects range attacks but it does more than that it reflects all attacks that could be used at range and a smart counter would be giving the skill a min distance where the attacker has to be before it can be reflected.

Wings has counters. You just don't want to use them.

Cloak requires you to slot a specific type of skill to counter, just like wings.

Shimmering requires you to slot a specific type of skill to counter, or to punch through the limit, just like wings. Wings also has the same thing, where it lets secondary effects through. Don't believe it lets CC through, but any sort of status effect, such as a dot or a Major/Minor debuff, are let through, regardless of whether the attack was reflected or not.

Never mentioned Streak, rather shields (pre-nerf).

It does not reflect all attacks at range, now you're making stuff up. It only reflect projectiles, and even then, it only reflects some projectiles. Warden's bird, certain ulti's, sets, etc aren't reflected, or even absorbed, by wings. I know for certain, as I've tested it with friends.

Noctus · November 2018

jcm2606 wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Look I main an Archer Reflect is just fine honestly could use a buff like a longer duration to 6 seconds like a shield has. Again I main a Stamina Archer Nightblade.

The duration is already 6 seconds. The main problem with the "duration" is how few projectiles it reflects.

Zer0oo wrote: »

Funny how some players do not see how it is a problem that one skill can shut down over 90% of all range attacks. The only counter play this skill has is not to use range attacks.

Wings against range players:
reflects basic light attacks(destro staff/bow/ resto) - that alone ~20% damage reduction if the main weapon is reflectable

reflects all range dots - ~ another 20% damage reduction (mag nb, mag templer, master staff sorc, mag warden, any stam build with a bow for poison inc)

reflects a lot of range ccs- reach, javelin, draining shot,

reflects 80% of all spam-able skills - hidden blade, snipe, reach, funnel

Wings are worth it against most players, especial mag players. And, do not come with the argument they are expensive since for what they do they are quite cheap: you do not have to heal the otherwise inc range damage and you may even get additional outcoming damage. It is a really strong counter to all range skills even if the player is at melee range.

There is only one situation where wings seem not so good and that is when you got highly outnumbered since so many players will bring the wings quite fast to the max number of reflects.

Almost like how cloak can shut down anything but AOE's, basically forcing players to do the same, slot a skill that counters it?

Almost like how Shimmering Shield actually does the same, but works better in that it is an amount of damage it absorbs in total, not a flat amount of projectiles, while returning magicka for each projectile absorbed, and granting Major Heroism, and being even cheaper, and having less exceptions?

Almost like how (pre nerf) damage shields shut down anything but oblivion damage, forcing players to keep pressure up to punch through them?

The only class that doesn't have something similar is Templar. Every other class has something just as strong as, if not stronger than wings. Wings is not some special thing that completely breaks balance.

And, yes, wings is expensive for what it actually offers: an inferior version of Shimmering Shield that reflects attacks back instead of absorbing them, except it also works for fewer projectiles, is prone to bugging out and letting some projectiles through, and has a flat limit of 4 that means it can drop the moment you cast it.

It amazes me that people are pointing out wings for being "broken", yet Shimmering Shield grants the same level of projectile immunity, that works against all projectiles reliably, while being cheaper, returning magicka on each projectile absorbed making it even cheaper, and granting Major Heroism, increasing ultimate generation.

But yeah, go ahead and nerf wings, when DK has already been nerfed into the ground, and is only becoming better because you guys keep asking for other classes to be nerfed into the ground.

What about this and what about that? Have you heard about Whataboutism?

Yes, the skills you mentioned are in some context strong but they have counters.
Cloak: you need to get out of cloak to attack and aoe pulls them out (still think this skill is too strong)
Shimmering: does just aborb it and not reflect so you can actually break through it, has a max on what it can absorb and it does not absorb secondary effects like cc,root, snare...
Streak: gap close, get movement speed, has stacking cost like no other skill in the game

Wings should be a strong skill, but it should have counters. It was designed that it reflects range attacks but it does more than that it reflects all attacks that could be used at range and a smart counter would be giving the skill a min distance where the attacker has to be before it can be reflected.

Wings has counters. You just don't want to use them.

Cloak requires you to slot a specific type of skill to counter, just like wings.

Shimmering requires you to slot a specific type of skill to counter, or to punch through the limit, just like wings. Wings also has the same thing, where it lets secondary effects through. Don't believe it lets CC through, but any sort of status effect, such as a dot or a Major/Minor debuff, are let through, regardless of whether the attack was reflected or not.

Never mentioned Streak, rather shields (pre-nerf).

It does not reflect all attacks at range, now you're making stuff up. It only reflect projectiles, and even then, it only reflects some projectiles. Warden's bird, certain ulti's, sets, etc aren't reflected, or even absorbed, by wings. I know for certain, as I've tested it with friends.

cloak requires u 1 thing to equip to fully use ur build against the guy cloaking ( radiant light, pots) and u can trash the guy. wings on the other hand force u to use 1 skill (destro staff beam) while the rest of ur build is useless.

if u rly want to bring it on par with cloak there should be a debuff. everybody would equip such a skill to use against dk like ppl do against cloak. but there is no such thing to debuff a dk reflect. forcing u to use 1 dmg ability against them while the rest of ur build is useless during the fight.

tell me how would u fight against a dk equiped with radiant light when ur a magblade for example.

dont get me wrong here im also for a cloak nerf it should have a cd after reveal for 3 seconds and 6 seconds with radiant light ( i think its atm 3 secs)

jcm2606 · November 2018

Noctus wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Look I main an Archer Reflect is just fine honestly could use a buff like a longer duration to 6 seconds like a shield has. Again I main a Stamina Archer Nightblade.

The duration is already 6 seconds. The main problem with the "duration" is how few projectiles it reflects.

Zer0oo wrote: »

Funny how some players do not see how it is a problem that one skill can shut down over 90% of all range attacks. The only counter play this skill has is not to use range attacks.

Wings against range players:
reflects basic light attacks(destro staff/bow/ resto) - that alone ~20% damage reduction if the main weapon is reflectable

reflects all range dots - ~ another 20% damage reduction (mag nb, mag templer, master staff sorc, mag warden, any stam build with a bow for poison inc)

reflects a lot of range ccs- reach, javelin, draining shot,

reflects 80% of all spam-able skills - hidden blade, snipe, reach, funnel

Wings are worth it against most players, especial mag players. And, do not come with the argument they are expensive since for what they do they are quite cheap: you do not have to heal the otherwise inc range damage and you may even get additional outcoming damage. It is a really strong counter to all range skills even if the player is at melee range.

There is only one situation where wings seem not so good and that is when you got highly outnumbered since so many players will bring the wings quite fast to the max number of reflects.

Almost like how cloak can shut down anything but AOE's, basically forcing players to do the same, slot a skill that counters it?

Almost like how Shimmering Shield actually does the same, but works better in that it is an amount of damage it absorbs in total, not a flat amount of projectiles, while returning magicka for each projectile absorbed, and granting Major Heroism, and being even cheaper, and having less exceptions?

Almost like how (pre nerf) damage shields shut down anything but oblivion damage, forcing players to keep pressure up to punch through them?

The only class that doesn't have something similar is Templar. Every other class has something just as strong as, if not stronger than wings. Wings is not some special thing that completely breaks balance.

And, yes, wings is expensive for what it actually offers: an inferior version of Shimmering Shield that reflects attacks back instead of absorbing them, except it also works for fewer projectiles, is prone to bugging out and letting some projectiles through, and has a flat limit of 4 that means it can drop the moment you cast it.

It amazes me that people are pointing out wings for being "broken", yet Shimmering Shield grants the same level of projectile immunity, that works against all projectiles reliably, while being cheaper, returning magicka on each projectile absorbed making it even cheaper, and granting Major Heroism, increasing ultimate generation.

But yeah, go ahead and nerf wings, when DK has already been nerfed into the ground, and is only becoming better because you guys keep asking for other classes to be nerfed into the ground.

What about this and what about that? Have you heard about Whataboutism?

Yes, the skills you mentioned are in some context strong but they have counters.
Cloak: you need to get out of cloak to attack and aoe pulls them out (still think this skill is too strong)
Shimmering: does just aborb it and not reflect so you can actually break through it, has a max on what it can absorb and it does not absorb secondary effects like cc,root, snare...
Streak: gap close, get movement speed, has stacking cost like no other skill in the game

Wings should be a strong skill, but it should have counters. It was designed that it reflects range attacks but it does more than that it reflects all attacks that could be used at range and a smart counter would be giving the skill a min distance where the attacker has to be before it can be reflected.

Wings has counters. You just don't want to use them.

Cloak requires you to slot a specific type of skill to counter, just like wings.

Shimmering requires you to slot a specific type of skill to counter, or to punch through the limit, just like wings. Wings also has the same thing, where it lets secondary effects through. Don't believe it lets CC through, but any sort of status effect, such as a dot or a Major/Minor debuff, are let through, regardless of whether the attack was reflected or not.

Never mentioned Streak, rather shields (pre-nerf).

It does not reflect all attacks at range, now you're making stuff up. It only reflect projectiles, and even then, it only reflects some projectiles. Warden's bird, certain ulti's, sets, etc aren't reflected, or even absorbed, by wings. I know for certain, as I've tested it with friends.

cloak requires u 1 thing to equip to fully use ur build against the guy cloaking ( radiant light, pots) and u can trash the guy. wings on the other hand force u to use 1 skill (destro staff beam) while the rest of ur build is useless.

if u rly want to bring it on par with cloak there should be a debuff. everybody would equip such a skill to use against dk like ppl do against cloak. but there is no such thing to debuff a dk reflect. forcing u to use 1 dmg ability against them while the rest of ur build is useless during the fight.

And the rest of your build isn't useless against cloak? While somebody is in cloak, they're completely untargetable. The only way to pull them out is to slot an AOE (just like slotting an ability that isn't a projectile), use detect pots (which are expensive), or slot a detection skill like Magelight or Evil Hunter (again, just like slotting an ability that isn't a projectile).

Again, wings is an expensive skill on a class that is already having issues sustaining. It is not like a DK can indefinitely sustain wings, unless they dedicate all of their resources to keeping it up. If you can survive, which honestly isn't hard due to the fact that you can exploit DK's lack of mobility by kiting them, then eventually they will let their wings drop, in which case you go in for the kill. Not that patient? Slot a stun, prevent them from casting wings in the first place. MagNB is in a tricky spot here, due to the fact that your stun is seemingly classed as a projectile, and I even said that should be looked at, as I'm fairly certain it isn't.

I've said it multiple times, and I'll say it again. I absolutely love how you guys are harping on about DK's wings, when Warden's Shimmering Shield lacks the reflect, but is considerably cheaper, returns magicka whenever it absorbs a projectile, it absorbs a total amount of damage rather than a flat amount of projectiles (means a weak ass light attack won't take up a projectile slot that could have been used for something that actually hits hard), works more consistently, works on more skills, and grants Major Heroism.

This entire thread screams "I don't want or don't know how to counter this one defensive ability, so I want it nerfed into the ground!"

Noctus · November 2018

jcm2606 wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Look I main an Archer Reflect is just fine honestly could use a buff like a longer duration to 6 seconds like a shield has. Again I main a Stamina Archer Nightblade.

The duration is already 6 seconds. The main problem with the "duration" is how few projectiles it reflects.

Zer0oo wrote: »

Funny how some players do not see how it is a problem that one skill can shut down over 90% of all range attacks. The only counter play this skill has is not to use range attacks.

Wings against range players:
reflects basic light attacks(destro staff/bow/ resto) - that alone ~20% damage reduction if the main weapon is reflectable

reflects all range dots - ~ another 20% damage reduction (mag nb, mag templer, master staff sorc, mag warden, any stam build with a bow for poison inc)

reflects a lot of range ccs- reach, javelin, draining shot,

reflects 80% of all spam-able skills - hidden blade, snipe, reach, funnel

Wings are worth it against most players, especial mag players. And, do not come with the argument they are expensive since for what they do they are quite cheap: you do not have to heal the otherwise inc range damage and you may even get additional outcoming damage. It is a really strong counter to all range skills even if the player is at melee range.

There is only one situation where wings seem not so good and that is when you got highly outnumbered since so many players will bring the wings quite fast to the max number of reflects.

Almost like how cloak can shut down anything but AOE's, basically forcing players to do the same, slot a skill that counters it?

Almost like how Shimmering Shield actually does the same, but works better in that it is an amount of damage it absorbs in total, not a flat amount of projectiles, while returning magicka for each projectile absorbed, and granting Major Heroism, and being even cheaper, and having less exceptions?

Almost like how (pre nerf) damage shields shut down anything but oblivion damage, forcing players to keep pressure up to punch through them?

The only class that doesn't have something similar is Templar. Every other class has something just as strong as, if not stronger than wings. Wings is not some special thing that completely breaks balance.

And, yes, wings is expensive for what it actually offers: an inferior version of Shimmering Shield that reflects attacks back instead of absorbing them, except it also works for fewer projectiles, is prone to bugging out and letting some projectiles through, and has a flat limit of 4 that means it can drop the moment you cast it.

It amazes me that people are pointing out wings for being "broken", yet Shimmering Shield grants the same level of projectile immunity, that works against all projectiles reliably, while being cheaper, returning magicka on each projectile absorbed making it even cheaper, and granting Major Heroism, increasing ultimate generation.

But yeah, go ahead and nerf wings, when DK has already been nerfed into the ground, and is only becoming better because you guys keep asking for other classes to be nerfed into the ground.

What about this and what about that? Have you heard about Whataboutism?

Yes, the skills you mentioned are in some context strong but they have counters.
Cloak: you need to get out of cloak to attack and aoe pulls them out (still think this skill is too strong)
Shimmering: does just aborb it and not reflect so you can actually break through it, has a max on what it can absorb and it does not absorb secondary effects like cc,root, snare...
Streak: gap close, get movement speed, has stacking cost like no other skill in the game

Wings should be a strong skill, but it should have counters. It was designed that it reflects range attacks but it does more than that it reflects all attacks that could be used at range and a smart counter would be giving the skill a min distance where the attacker has to be before it can be reflected.

Wings has counters. You just don't want to use them.

Cloak requires you to slot a specific type of skill to counter, just like wings.

Shimmering requires you to slot a specific type of skill to counter, or to punch through the limit, just like wings. Wings also has the same thing, where it lets secondary effects through. Don't believe it lets CC through, but any sort of status effect, such as a dot or a Major/Minor debuff, are let through, regardless of whether the attack was reflected or not.

Never mentioned Streak, rather shields (pre-nerf).

It does not reflect all attacks at range, now you're making stuff up. It only reflect projectiles, and even then, it only reflects some projectiles. Warden's bird, certain ulti's, sets, etc aren't reflected, or even absorbed, by wings. I know for certain, as I've tested it with friends.

cloak requires u 1 thing to equip to fully use ur build against the guy cloaking ( radiant light, pots) and u can trash the guy. wings on the other hand force u to use 1 skill (destro staff beam) while the rest of ur build is useless.

if u rly want to bring it on par with cloak there should be a debuff. everybody would equip such a skill to use against dk like ppl do against cloak. but there is no such thing to debuff a dk reflect. forcing u to use 1 dmg ability against them while the rest of ur build is useless during the fight.

And the rest of your build isn't useless against cloak?

try to think logical. 1 skill equiped and u can use AAAAALLLLL of ur build against cloak user.
on the other hand against dk reflect AALL ur build is useless except 1 ability.

i won the debate deal with it

jcm2606 · November 2018

Noctus wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Look I main an Archer Reflect is just fine honestly could use a buff like a longer duration to 6 seconds like a shield has. Again I main a Stamina Archer Nightblade.

The duration is already 6 seconds. The main problem with the "duration" is how few projectiles it reflects.

Zer0oo wrote: »

Funny how some players do not see how it is a problem that one skill can shut down over 90% of all range attacks. The only counter play this skill has is not to use range attacks.

Wings against range players:
reflects basic light attacks(destro staff/bow/ resto) - that alone ~20% damage reduction if the main weapon is reflectable

reflects all range dots - ~ another 20% damage reduction (mag nb, mag templer, master staff sorc, mag warden, any stam build with a bow for poison inc)

reflects a lot of range ccs- reach, javelin, draining shot,

reflects 80% of all spam-able skills - hidden blade, snipe, reach, funnel

Wings are worth it against most players, especial mag players. And, do not come with the argument they are expensive since for what they do they are quite cheap: you do not have to heal the otherwise inc range damage and you may even get additional outcoming damage. It is a really strong counter to all range skills even if the player is at melee range.

There is only one situation where wings seem not so good and that is when you got highly outnumbered since so many players will bring the wings quite fast to the max number of reflects.

Almost like how cloak can shut down anything but AOE's, basically forcing players to do the same, slot a skill that counters it?

Almost like how Shimmering Shield actually does the same, but works better in that it is an amount of damage it absorbs in total, not a flat amount of projectiles, while returning magicka for each projectile absorbed, and granting Major Heroism, and being even cheaper, and having less exceptions?

Almost like how (pre nerf) damage shields shut down anything but oblivion damage, forcing players to keep pressure up to punch through them?

The only class that doesn't have something similar is Templar. Every other class has something just as strong as, if not stronger than wings. Wings is not some special thing that completely breaks balance.

And, yes, wings is expensive for what it actually offers: an inferior version of Shimmering Shield that reflects attacks back instead of absorbing them, except it also works for fewer projectiles, is prone to bugging out and letting some projectiles through, and has a flat limit of 4 that means it can drop the moment you cast it.

It amazes me that people are pointing out wings for being "broken", yet Shimmering Shield grants the same level of projectile immunity, that works against all projectiles reliably, while being cheaper, returning magicka on each projectile absorbed making it even cheaper, and granting Major Heroism, increasing ultimate generation.

But yeah, go ahead and nerf wings, when DK has already been nerfed into the ground, and is only becoming better because you guys keep asking for other classes to be nerfed into the ground.

What about this and what about that? Have you heard about Whataboutism?

Yes, the skills you mentioned are in some context strong but they have counters.
Cloak: you need to get out of cloak to attack and aoe pulls them out (still think this skill is too strong)
Shimmering: does just aborb it and not reflect so you can actually break through it, has a max on what it can absorb and it does not absorb secondary effects like cc,root, snare...
Streak: gap close, get movement speed, has stacking cost like no other skill in the game

Wings should be a strong skill, but it should have counters. It was designed that it reflects range attacks but it does more than that it reflects all attacks that could be used at range and a smart counter would be giving the skill a min distance where the attacker has to be before it can be reflected.

Wings has counters. You just don't want to use them.

Cloak requires you to slot a specific type of skill to counter, just like wings.

Shimmering requires you to slot a specific type of skill to counter, or to punch through the limit, just like wings. Wings also has the same thing, where it lets secondary effects through. Don't believe it lets CC through, but any sort of status effect, such as a dot or a Major/Minor debuff, are let through, regardless of whether the attack was reflected or not.

Never mentioned Streak, rather shields (pre-nerf).

It does not reflect all attacks at range, now you're making stuff up. It only reflect projectiles, and even then, it only reflects some projectiles. Warden's bird, certain ulti's, sets, etc aren't reflected, or even absorbed, by wings. I know for certain, as I've tested it with friends.

cloak requires u 1 thing to equip to fully use ur build against the guy cloaking ( radiant light, pots) and u can trash the guy. wings on the other hand force u to use 1 skill (destro staff beam) while the rest of ur build is useless.

if u rly want to bring it on par with cloak there should be a debuff. everybody would equip such a skill to use against dk like ppl do against cloak. but there is no such thing to debuff a dk reflect. forcing u to use 1 dmg ability against them while the rest of ur build is useless during the fight.

And the rest of your build isn't useless against cloak?

try to think logical. 1 skill equiped and u can use AAAAALLLLL of ur build against cloak user.
on the other hand against dk reflect AALL ur build is useless except 1 ability.

i won the debate deal with it

Until they cloak again, which is a pain to play against as a dot-based stamDK who doesn't run Steel Tornado, meaning all of my damage can be forced to miss with one button, and I basically can't pull them out of cloak due to the fact that I don't have an AOE that is large enough in radius. Yet, you don't see me wanting cloak nerfed into the ground, as per the suggestions to wings will do (I think cloak needs a little adjustment, but I recognise you can't do much to it without over-nerfing NB, as NB crutches on it as its main defense).

Welcome to ESO, where PVP is balanced as one giant rock-paper-scissors game. Your build is not going to counter everything, you're not going to be able to win every fight, and if you want to be able to, you're gonna just have to deal with changing your build.

Zer0oo · November 2018

jcm2606 wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Look I main an Archer Reflect is just fine honestly could use a buff like a longer duration to 6 seconds like a shield has. Again I main a Stamina Archer Nightblade.

The duration is already 6 seconds. The main problem with the "duration" is how few projectiles it reflects.

Zer0oo wrote: »

Funny how some players do not see how it is a problem that one skill can shut down over 90% of all range attacks. The only counter play this skill has is not to use range attacks.

Wings against range players:
reflects basic light attacks(destro staff/bow/ resto) - that alone ~20% damage reduction if the main weapon is reflectable

reflects all range dots - ~ another 20% damage reduction (mag nb, mag templer, master staff sorc, mag warden, any stam build with a bow for poison inc)

reflects a lot of range ccs- reach, javelin, draining shot,

reflects 80% of all spam-able skills - hidden blade, snipe, reach, funnel

Wings are worth it against most players, especial mag players. And, do not come with the argument they are expensive since for what they do they are quite cheap: you do not have to heal the otherwise inc range damage and you may even get additional outcoming damage. It is a really strong counter to all range skills even if the player is at melee range.

There is only one situation where wings seem not so good and that is when you got highly outnumbered since so many players will bring the wings quite fast to the max number of reflects.

Almost like how cloak can shut down anything but AOE's, basically forcing players to do the same, slot a skill that counters it?

Almost like how Shimmering Shield actually does the same, but works better in that it is an amount of damage it absorbs in total, not a flat amount of projectiles, while returning magicka for each projectile absorbed, and granting Major Heroism, and being even cheaper, and having less exceptions?

Almost like how (pre nerf) damage shields shut down anything but oblivion damage, forcing players to keep pressure up to punch through them?

The only class that doesn't have something similar is Templar. Every other class has something just as strong as, if not stronger than wings. Wings is not some special thing that completely breaks balance.

And, yes, wings is expensive for what it actually offers: an inferior version of Shimmering Shield that reflects attacks back instead of absorbing them, except it also works for fewer projectiles, is prone to bugging out and letting some projectiles through, and has a flat limit of 4 that means it can drop the moment you cast it.

It amazes me that people are pointing out wings for being "broken", yet Shimmering Shield grants the same level of projectile immunity, that works against all projectiles reliably, while being cheaper, returning magicka on each projectile absorbed making it even cheaper, and granting Major Heroism, increasing ultimate generation.

But yeah, go ahead and nerf wings, when DK has already been nerfed into the ground, and is only becoming better because you guys keep asking for other classes to be nerfed into the ground.

What about this and what about that? Have you heard about Whataboutism?

Yes, the skills you mentioned are in some context strong but they have counters.
Cloak: you need to get out of cloak to attack and aoe pulls them out (still think this skill is too strong)
Shimmering: does just aborb it and not reflect so you can actually break through it, has a max on what it can absorb and it does not absorb secondary effects like cc,root, snare...
Streak: gap close, get movement speed, has stacking cost like no other skill in the game

Wings should be a strong skill, but it should have counters. It was designed that it reflects range attacks but it does more than that it reflects all attacks that could be used at range and a smart counter would be giving the skill a min distance where the attacker has to be before it can be reflected.

Wings has counters. You just don't want to use them.

Cloak requires you to slot a specific type of skill to counter, just like wings.

Shimmering requires you to slot a specific type of skill to counter, or to punch through the limit, just like wings. Wings also has the same thing, where it lets secondary effects through. Don't believe it lets CC through, but any sort of status effect, such as a dot or a Major/Minor debuff, are let through, regardless of whether the attack was reflected or not.

Never mentioned Streak, rather shields (pre-nerf).

It does not reflect all attacks at range, now you're making stuff up. It only reflect projectiles, and even then, it only reflects some projectiles. Warden's bird, certain ulti's, sets, etc aren't reflected, or even absorbed, by wings. I know for certain, as I've tested it with friends.

cloak requires u 1 thing to equip to fully use ur build against the guy cloaking ( radiant light, pots) and u can trash the guy. wings on the other hand force u to use 1 skill (destro staff beam) while the rest of ur build is useless.

if u rly want to bring it on par with cloak there should be a debuff. everybody would equip such a skill to use against dk like ppl do against cloak. but there is no such thing to debuff a dk reflect. forcing u to use 1 dmg ability against them while the rest of ur build is useless during the fight.

And the rest of your build isn't useless against cloak? While somebody is in cloak, they're completely untargetable. The only way to pull them out is to slot an AOE (just like slotting an ability that isn't a projectile), use detect pots (which are expensive), or slot a detection skill like Magelight or Evil Hunter (again, just like slotting an ability that isn't a projectile).

Again, wings is an expensive skill on a class that is already having issues sustaining. It is not like a DK can indefinitely sustain wings, unless they dedicate all of their resources to keeping it up. If you can survive, which honestly isn't hard due to the fact that you can exploit DK's lack of mobility by kiting them, then eventually they will let their wings drop, in which case you go in for the kill. Not that patient? Slot a stun, prevent them from casting wings in the first place. MagNB is in a tricky spot here, due to the fact that your stun is seemingly classed as a projectile, and I even said that should be looked at, as I'm fairly certain it isn't.

I've said it multiple times, and I'll say it again. I absolutely love how you guys are harping on about DK's wings, when Warden's Shimmering Shield lacks the reflect, but is considerably cheaper, returns magicka whenever it absorbs a projectile, it absorbs a total amount of damage rather than a flat amount of projectiles (means a weak ass light attack won't take up a projectile slot that could have been used for something that actually hits hard), works more consistently, works on more skills, and grants Major Heroism.

This entire thread screams "I don't want or don't know how to counter this one defensive ability, so I want it nerfed into the ground!"

Tell me what is the counter to this skill?
Do not use light attacks? 20% less damage done
Do not use range dots? another 20% less damage
Do not use range spam-able or range high burst skills? (assassin will, frags, snipe)

This skill does have no real counter to it. You can play a little around of it by trying to use some skills that will not be reflected but alone the fact that it reflects the only mag weapon in the game light attacks is op as hell and has no counter.

jcm2606 · November 2018

Zer0oo wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Look I main an Archer Reflect is just fine honestly could use a buff like a longer duration to 6 seconds like a shield has. Again I main a Stamina Archer Nightblade.

The duration is already 6 seconds. The main problem with the "duration" is how few projectiles it reflects.

Zer0oo wrote: »

Funny how some players do not see how it is a problem that one skill can shut down over 90% of all range attacks. The only counter play this skill has is not to use range attacks.

Wings against range players:
reflects basic light attacks(destro staff/bow/ resto) - that alone ~20% damage reduction if the main weapon is reflectable

reflects all range dots - ~ another 20% damage reduction (mag nb, mag templer, master staff sorc, mag warden, any stam build with a bow for poison inc)

reflects a lot of range ccs- reach, javelin, draining shot,

reflects 80% of all spam-able skills - hidden blade, snipe, reach, funnel

Wings are worth it against most players, especial mag players. And, do not come with the argument they are expensive since for what they do they are quite cheap: you do not have to heal the otherwise inc range damage and you may even get additional outcoming damage. It is a really strong counter to all range skills even if the player is at melee range.

There is only one situation where wings seem not so good and that is when you got highly outnumbered since so many players will bring the wings quite fast to the max number of reflects.

Almost like how cloak can shut down anything but AOE's, basically forcing players to do the same, slot a skill that counters it?

Almost like how Shimmering Shield actually does the same, but works better in that it is an amount of damage it absorbs in total, not a flat amount of projectiles, while returning magicka for each projectile absorbed, and granting Major Heroism, and being even cheaper, and having less exceptions?

Almost like how (pre nerf) damage shields shut down anything but oblivion damage, forcing players to keep pressure up to punch through them?

The only class that doesn't have something similar is Templar. Every other class has something just as strong as, if not stronger than wings. Wings is not some special thing that completely breaks balance.

And, yes, wings is expensive for what it actually offers: an inferior version of Shimmering Shield that reflects attacks back instead of absorbing them, except it also works for fewer projectiles, is prone to bugging out and letting some projectiles through, and has a flat limit of 4 that means it can drop the moment you cast it.

It amazes me that people are pointing out wings for being "broken", yet Shimmering Shield grants the same level of projectile immunity, that works against all projectiles reliably, while being cheaper, returning magicka on each projectile absorbed making it even cheaper, and granting Major Heroism, increasing ultimate generation.

But yeah, go ahead and nerf wings, when DK has already been nerfed into the ground, and is only becoming better because you guys keep asking for other classes to be nerfed into the ground.

What about this and what about that? Have you heard about Whataboutism?

Yes, the skills you mentioned are in some context strong but they have counters.
Cloak: you need to get out of cloak to attack and aoe pulls them out (still think this skill is too strong)
Shimmering: does just aborb it and not reflect so you can actually break through it, has a max on what it can absorb and it does not absorb secondary effects like cc,root, snare...
Streak: gap close, get movement speed, has stacking cost like no other skill in the game

Wings should be a strong skill, but it should have counters. It was designed that it reflects range attacks but it does more than that it reflects all attacks that could be used at range and a smart counter would be giving the skill a min distance where the attacker has to be before it can be reflected.

Wings has counters. You just don't want to use them.

Cloak requires you to slot a specific type of skill to counter, just like wings.

Shimmering requires you to slot a specific type of skill to counter, or to punch through the limit, just like wings. Wings also has the same thing, where it lets secondary effects through. Don't believe it lets CC through, but any sort of status effect, such as a dot or a Major/Minor debuff, are let through, regardless of whether the attack was reflected or not.

Never mentioned Streak, rather shields (pre-nerf).

It does not reflect all attacks at range, now you're making stuff up. It only reflect projectiles, and even then, it only reflects some projectiles. Warden's bird, certain ulti's, sets, etc aren't reflected, or even absorbed, by wings. I know for certain, as I've tested it with friends.

cloak requires u 1 thing to equip to fully use ur build against the guy cloaking ( radiant light, pots) and u can trash the guy. wings on the other hand force u to use 1 skill (destro staff beam) while the rest of ur build is useless.

if u rly want to bring it on par with cloak there should be a debuff. everybody would equip such a skill to use against dk like ppl do against cloak. but there is no such thing to debuff a dk reflect. forcing u to use 1 dmg ability against them while the rest of ur build is useless during the fight.

And the rest of your build isn't useless against cloak? While somebody is in cloak, they're completely untargetable. The only way to pull them out is to slot an AOE (just like slotting an ability that isn't a projectile), use detect pots (which are expensive), or slot a detection skill like Magelight or Evil Hunter (again, just like slotting an ability that isn't a projectile).

Again, wings is an expensive skill on a class that is already having issues sustaining. It is not like a DK can indefinitely sustain wings, unless they dedicate all of their resources to keeping it up. If you can survive, which honestly isn't hard due to the fact that you can exploit DK's lack of mobility by kiting them, then eventually they will let their wings drop, in which case you go in for the kill. Not that patient? Slot a stun, prevent them from casting wings in the first place. MagNB is in a tricky spot here, due to the fact that your stun is seemingly classed as a projectile, and I even said that should be looked at, as I'm fairly certain it isn't.

I've said it multiple times, and I'll say it again. I absolutely love how you guys are harping on about DK's wings, when Warden's Shimmering Shield lacks the reflect, but is considerably cheaper, returns magicka whenever it absorbs a projectile, it absorbs a total amount of damage rather than a flat amount of projectiles (means a weak ass light attack won't take up a projectile slot that could have been used for something that actually hits hard), works more consistently, works on more skills, and grants Major Heroism.

This entire thread screams "I don't want or don't know how to counter this one defensive ability, so I want it nerfed into the ground!"

Tell me what is the counter to this skill?
Do not use light attacks? 20% less damage done
Do not use range dots? another 20% less damage
Do not use range spam-able or range high burst skills? (assassin will, frags, snipe)

This skill does have no real counter to it. You can play a little around of it by trying to use some skills that will not be reflected but alone the fact that it reflects the only mag weapon in the game light attacks is op as hell and has no counter.

This skill only reflects projectiles. Not every ranged skill in the game is a projectile.

From my first comment in this thread:

Sorc has Curse & Wrath. Templar has jabs, Backlash, beam. Warden has shaulks, the bird (tested, the stamina morph is not reflected), Swarm. NB is a little SOL, and I think the skills in the NB kit need to be revisited in terms of which can be reflected (Cripple being the main one, pretty sure this isn't a projectile, and yet it is affected by wings), though you have Force Pulse, Veiled Strike, and Assassin's Blade. A few ultimates also aren't affected by wings, and I can't think of any proc sets that are affected.

There are counters. Use them. Stop complaining.