Potential Solution to "FAKE TANK!!!" Problem

Saint_Bud · October 2018

In moast dungeons there is no need for a tank and healers. Thats the game and stop crying about it.

p00tx · October 2018

Saint_Bud wrote: »

In moast dungeons there is no need for a tank and healers. Thats the game and stop crying about it.

Paraphrase:
"Blah blah blah [insert something pointlessly rude] blah blah, I didn't read anything in this thread except the title, and i need attention so I'll say something to show that I am "tough and capable and amazingly awesome". Blah blah "you're a crybaby" blah blah, misspelling, blah blah, no punctuation, blah blah".

Cool. Thanks.

Mojmir · October 2018

p00tx wrote: »

Gargath wrote: »

There is already a thread about this here.

Right, but this is a solution thread, not a complaint thread.

I like the complaint better than the solution. Best solution, be the tank or deal with it.

GimpyPorcupine · October 2018

This would be so easy to fix.

The servers just count how many times during a dungeon an tank taunts a boss, either with skills or armor passives (e.g. Tormentor). At the end of the dungeon, if that number is zero, the player receives a game mail with a stern warning. If a player to whom a warning email has been sent still refuses to taunt, he receives some sort of penalty (locked out of group finder for a week.)

Rungar · October 2018

there is always the fix the game solution but that would upset the holy order of the dps parsers.

EvilCroc · October 2018

Just be a man and vote-kick them. Or leave if kicking is failed. Zero tolerance is the only cure for fake-role plague. Kicking fake DD's was in the game for long time, why fake tank and healers have privilege?
I'm talking about vets ofc. Normals are OK with any group composition.

Juju_beans · October 2018

p00tx wrote: »

Gargath wrote: »

There is already a thread about this here.

Right, but this is a solution thread, not a complaint thread.

Just kick them if they are a fake tank.
There's your solution.

AcadianPaladin · October 2018

I only pug on my real healer and real tank. The proposed debuffs would make me less likely to pug. Therefore, I would not recommend them. Might discourage fake tanks/healers but would also discourage real tanks/healers.

Yes, my real tank has found himself surrounded by dead squishies having to complete a boss with his pathetic 4k dps. As small as his dps already is, it can make the difference. Same basic situation has happened with my healer.

idk · October 2018

Juju_beans wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

Gargath wrote: »

There is already a thread about this here.

Right, but this is a solution thread, not a complaint thread.

Just kick them if they are a fake tank.
There's your solution.

+1

If people are not trying to vote kick the fake tank then they are complicit and accepting. Complaining in the forums does not change that.

leeux · October 2018

In normal mode, which is where fake tank problem weights more heavily I think, I'd give the player taking the role of the tank a permanent debuff (for the duration of the activity) that makes the mobs in the dungeon hate him more than the other players, automatically, without the need of a taunt.

That implies they will attack him over the others and maybe even do more damage to him than to the others. A proper tank wouldn't have an issue with that since mobs in normal already deal less damage than their veteran counterparts, so you could theoretically rank up the damage they do to the tank without causing issues.

And if the tank uses a taunt then it falls back again to normal damage for the duration of the taunt.

Probably the best way of stopping people using fake roles is to make the dungeon harder for them if they do, IMO.

AcadianPaladin · October 2018

leeux wrote: »

In normal mode, which is where fake tank problem weights more heavily I think, I'd give the player taking the role of the tank a permanent debuff (for the duration of the activity) that makes the mobs in the dungeon hate him more than the other players, automatically, without the need of a taunt.

That implies they will attack him over the others and maybe even do more damage to him than to the others. A proper tank wouldn't have an issue with that since mobs in normal already deal less damage than their veteran counterparts, so you could theoretically rank up the damage they do to the tank without causing issues.

And if the tank uses a taunt then it falls back again to normal damage for the duration of the taunt.

Probably the best way of stopping people using fake roles is to make the dungeon harder for them if they do, IMO.

Now that is a good idea! My real tank would love that! And I suspect fake tanks would hate it as they die.

oxygen_thief · October 2018

potential solutions

1 create your own tank to do dungeon runs but in that case you can face a fake dps problem.
2 recruit whole group from the zone/guild chat.
3 get acquaintance with other players to create a constant group for dungeon runs

dont ask zos to do something with the group finder because you know how they are working. they will break it completely to a nonfunctional state and nerf some classes or abilities to increase a tanks value

Sandman929 · October 2018

Seems like they could just add some extra rage to bosses that aren't taunted. Probably simplistic, but I don't think this gets fixed in the queuing system. It probably could get fixed with mechanics.

D0PAMINE · October 2018

The only two solutions: Form your own group or kick people. We don't need ZoS to police groups for us because it will get worse.

LeagueTroll · October 2018

killahsin wrote: »

An over watch system would solve this problem in 3 days.

i don't mind, but as a tank main, i need over watch on sub par dd as well. those are very annoying.

frostz417 · October 2018

@Anotherone773
Lmao “yOu sH0uLd bE BanEd 4 aBuZinG dUngEoN fInDRr”
Seems to me you’re on of the people who just cry a lot because you’re doing normal Elden hollow 1 and get triggered because the tank role is a max cp who’s just killing everything and it’s interfering with your sightseeing tour.
Literally there’s no benefit of staying and taking everyone’s sweet time doing a normal easy dungeon or to que as proper roles for easy trash like fungal grotto 1. Most of the player base would agree with that. I agreed with you saying I wouldn’t que as a fake role when doing vet content or normal dlc. Especially since I only do my pledges on vet, I always que for proper roles. However if I’m going to do a quick dungeon to farm such as farming bone pirate or whatever. I’m not going to que as a tank/healer on a non dlc normal dungeon. Absolutely dumb, if your character is so bad that you need heals/someone to taunt the boss who hits for 1k heavy attacks in a normal dungeon. Once again, reevaluate your build because clearly you’re just not a good player and you shouldn’t even be using dungeon finder if you can’t hold your own.

Swomp23 · October 2018

frostz417 wrote: »

@Swomp23

I’ll que as a healer or tank if I’m really trying to rush a normal dungeon. For vet I will always que for my role. I have over 1000 cp so my dps characters can easily burn through a normal dungeon. And if you need a proper tank or healer in a normal non dlc dungeon and cry about it, then maybe you should reevaluate your playstyle bud. Quit crying and as everyone says “get good”

I have no problem right now completing normal dungeons. I've soloed many of them and cleared vMA. This comment wasn't about me. It's about lvl 18 newbies that try to understand what is going on and wondering why do they keep being one shot. They might think their build is terrible and they're not worth for dungeons yet, while the problem is the selfish ass that queued as a fake tank and that's not taunting. Quit trolling and as everyone says ''learn to read''.

Swomp23 · October 2018

GimpyPorcupine wrote: »

This would be so easy to fix.

The servers just count how many times during a dungeon an tank taunts a boss, either with skills or armor passives (e.g. Tormentor). At the end of the dungeon, if that number is zero, the player receives a game mail with a stern warning. If a player to whom a warning email has been sent still refuses to taunt, he receives some sort of penalty (locked out of group finder for a week.)

Where can I vote for this?

Swomp23 · October 2018

oxygen_thief wrote: »

potential solutions

1 create your own tank to do dungeon runs but in that case you can face a fake dps problem.
2 recruit whole group from the zone/guild chat.
3 get acquaintance with other players to create a constant group for dungeon runs

dont ask zos to do something with the group finder because you know how they are working. they will break it completely to a nonfunctional state and nerf some classes or abilities sorcs to increase a tanks value

FTFY.

No seriously, I did #1. I crafted heavy Torugs with backbar dw or bow. I can pull ok dps in case of low dps. I can focus on tanking if I get a good PUG

About 2 and 3, while being good individual solutions, don't fix the problem. ZOS created PUGs for a reason. The ability for anyone, wether they don't like socializing, don't speak english or wathever, to find a group to complete dungeons. Imo, it's a great tool, but it needs some fixes. That's what we're trying to find here.

El_Borracho · October 2018

@leeux Got to disagree that fake tanks are a bigger problem in normal dungeons than vet. In normal, you could blast through a fair amount with 4 DPS if you had a good squad. You bring that fake tank into a vet dungeon, and for most, it doesn't matter how good the DPS is. Plus, their awfulness is only magnified because the group (1) typically consists of 2-3 people who know what they are doing, and (2) the damage inflicted is obvious and constant.

I think the reason for more in vet is because these fake tanks are either going for monster helmets and/or Undaunted keys, as they believe that gear will cure their character's flaws. Add that with impatience/rudeness of not wanting to wait in line with the rest of us DPS, and you get the fake tank. From my personal experience, I have seen less fake tanks in DLC dungeons, but I have seen them. And they are a scourge. I am for a system where you can report them to ZOS and they can ban them from dungeons as they do with people who spam in area chat. Until them, KICK THEM EVERY TIME

oxygen_thief · October 2018

Swomp23 wrote: »

oxygen_thief wrote: »

potential solutions

1 create your own tank to do dungeon runs but in that case you can face a fake dps problem.
2 recruit whole group from the zone/guild chat.
3 get acquaintance with other players to create a constant group for dungeon runs

dont ask zos to do something with the group finder because you know how they are working. they will break it completely to a nonfunctional state and nerf some classes or abilities sorcs to increase a tanks value

FTFY.

No seriously, I did #1. I crafted heavy Torugs with backbar dw or bow. I can pull ok dps in case of low dps. I can focus on tanking if I get a good PUG

About 2 and 3, while being good individual solutions, don't fix the problem. ZOS created PUGs for a reason. The ability for anyone, wether they don't like socializing, don't speak english or wathever, to find a group to complete dungeons. Imo, it's a great tool, but it needs some fixes. That's what we're trying to find here.

i dont like socializing and i dont speak english. actually you dont need english to find a group because everybody knows ingame acronyms like lfg dd dps etc

Silver_Strider · October 2018

Why is it always the same terrible idea to debuff Tank/Healer's damage that gets brought up when discussing Fake Tanks/Healer? 90% of the time, Fake Tank/Healer damage is already bad enough but now you're hurting REAL Tanks and Healers with this asinine suggestion because it wouldn't solve anything and just make the issue even worse since the few Real Tanks/Healers just say **** it and stop using Duty Finder as well.

How about a recommendation system with incentives? What about a report system that allows us to grade a player's performance at the end of a run and after X amounts of recommendations get a grab bag of mats, transmute crystal, maybe a mount, etc. Also, make vote kick a part of this recommendation system. Give options as to why you're kicking someone (Fake Role, Offline, etc) to act as a counterbalance to recommendations. Say you lose a recommendation if you get vote kicked for Fake Role or something.
To prevent some level of abuse, make premade groups unable to vote for other party members so they can't boost friend's recommendations.

Is it perfect? No, but it's better than nerfing player's damage arbitrarily when that isn't the problem at all.

p00tx · October 2018

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Why is it always the same terrible idea to debuff Tank/Healer's damage that gets brought up when discussing Fake Tanks/Healer? 90% of the time, Fake Tank/Healer damage is already bad enough but now you're hurting REAL Tanks and Healers with this asinine suggestion because it wouldn't solve anything and just make the issue even worse since the few Real Tanks/Healers just say **** it and stop using Duty Finder as well.

How about a recommendation system with incentives? What about a report system that allows us to grade a player's performance at the end of a run and after X amounts of recommendations get a grab bag of mats, transmute crystal, maybe a mount, etc. Also, make vote kick a part of this recommendation system. Give options as to why you're kicking someone (Fake Role, Offline, etc) to act as a counterbalance to recommendations. Say you lose a recommendation if you get vote kicked for Fake Role or something.
To prevent some level of abuse, make premade groups unable to vote for other party members so they can't boost friend's recommendations.

Is it perfect? No, but it's better than nerfing player's damage arbitrarily when that isn't the problem at all.

So, do you think that a grading system is going to work well with the nasty, rude, trolling attitudes rampant in this community?

Swomp23 · October 2018

oxygen_thief wrote: »

Swomp23 wrote: »

oxygen_thief wrote: »

potential solutions

1 create your own tank to do dungeon runs but in that case you can face a fake dps problem.
2 recruit whole group from the zone/guild chat.
3 get acquaintance with other players to create a constant group for dungeon runs

dont ask zos to do something with the group finder because you know how they are working. they will break it completely to a nonfunctional state and nerf some classes or abilities sorcs to increase a tanks value

FTFY.

No seriously, I did #1. I crafted heavy Torugs with backbar dw or bow. I can pull ok dps in case of low dps. I can focus on tanking if I get a good PUG

About 2 and 3, while being good individual solutions, don't fix the problem. ZOS created PUGs for a reason. The ability for anyone, wether they don't like socializing, don't speak english or wathever, to find a group to complete dungeons. Imo, it's a great tool, but it needs some fixes. That's what we're trying to find here.

i dont like socializing and i dont speak english. actually you dont need english to find a group because everybody knows ingame acronyms like lfg dd dps etc

Good for you. That's still not a reason not to improve the activity finder tool.

Silver_Strider · October 2018

p00tx wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Why is it always the same terrible idea to debuff Tank/Healer's damage that gets brought up when discussing Fake Tanks/Healer? 90% of the time, Fake Tank/Healer damage is already bad enough but now you're hurting REAL Tanks and Healers with this asinine suggestion because it wouldn't solve anything and just make the issue even worse since the few Real Tanks/Healers just say **** it and stop using Duty Finder as well.

How about a recommendation system with incentives? What about a report system that allows us to grade a player's performance at the end of a run and after X amounts of recommendations get a grab bag of mats, transmute crystal, maybe a mount, etc. Also, make vote kick a part of this recommendation system. Give options as to why you're kicking someone (Fake Role, Offline, etc) to act as a counterbalance to recommendations. Say you lose a recommendation if you get vote kicked for Fake Role or something.
To prevent some level of abuse, make premade groups unable to vote for other party members so they can't boost friend's recommendations.

Is it perfect? No, but it's better than nerfing player's damage arbitrarily when that isn't the problem at all.

So, do you think that a grading system is going to work well with the nasty, rude, trolling attitudes rampant in this community?

Can you specifically list any problem with the system? You could exclude premade groups vote kick results as well so that it doesn't impact your report should a premade group kick you out for some reason, making it moot outside of being removed from the group. If PUGs kick you, considering that it would be 3 totally random people that have agreed to kick you, isn't it maybe possible that it was you that was the problem? Also, if by some twisted design, it was out of purely malicious intent, how often do you get kicked out of a totally random PUG completely unwarranted that it would be a problem?

El_Borracho · October 2018

@Silver_Strider People have been known to boot players at the final boss to get their buddies into the dungeon in order to get the gear, achievement, etc. Its not widespread, but it exists. And while its not a classic PUG problem, they do get the sucker 4th from dungeon finder.

Regardless, I don't know about you, but I don't need some rando grading my performance in ESO. Take a look at some of the comments on these threads. Do you want the guy who wants to nerf the vMA bow critiquing your healing? Or how about the real tank who wants to sprint to each boss while pulling a train of mobs without telling anyone, then gets angry that you got caught in the wash and died, ruining his no death run he told nobody about? Or the DPS who swore he was carrying the group with his light bow attacks and how you're doing it wrong? We've all seen and/or heard about these all-stars. Sounds like an even worse version of Yelp. Heck, look no further than what is written 24 hours a day in area chat.

I'm cool with implementing a reporting system where ZoS can look at a person reported for queuing as a tank when they are not. But I don't need xxBoN3rSwORd69xx determining what dungeons I'm allowed to run via dungeon finder

Jhalin · October 2018

Use the kick tool if it’s vet, if it’s norm then it really doesn’t matter as long as everyone got past the “flee from every mob” mentality you’ll have as a newbie

Silver_Strider · October 2018

El_Borracho wrote: »

@Silver_Strider People have been known to boot players at the final boss to get their buddies into the dungeon in order to get the gear, achievement, etc. Its not widespread, but it exists. And while its not a classic PUG problem, they do get the sucker 4th from dungeon finder.

Regardless, I don't know about you, but I don't need some rando grading my performance in ESO. Take a look at some of the comments on these threads. Do you want the guy who wants to nerf the vMA bow critiquing your healing? Or how about the real tank who wants to sprint to each boss while pulling a train of mobs without telling anyone, then gets angry that you got caught in the wash and died, ruining his no death run he told nobody about? Or the DPS who swore he was carrying the group with his light bow attacks and how you're doing it wrong? We've all seen and/or heard about these all-stars. Sounds like an even worse version of Yelp. Heck, look no further than what is written 24 hours a day in area chat.

I'm cool with implementing a reporting system where ZoS can look at a person reported for queuing as a tank when they are not. But I don't need xxBoN3rSwORd69xx determining what dungeons I'm allowed to run via dungeon finder

It's not a critique system. It doesn't let you vote that this person was a fake tank/heal/dps or absolutely anything else if the dungeon is complete, only when you are vote kicking someone and in the case of 3 premades kicking some random in Duty Finder, their vote result would be null and void and NOT negatively impact their report. This s*** happens now, how is a recommendation system, given the criteria that I have explained, have ANY impact on you or anyone else? It wouldn't. You would still be kicked by those jerks, your report would be unscathed and the same exact scenario that happens now would happen should my idea be put into place, nothing other than you having wasted your time by these jerks.

If you complete the dungeon, a small prompt appears "Recommend X person?" (Yes/Cancel) You select yes if you feel the person did their job well or select cancel to close the tab without recommending them. No long winded essay about how the healer didn't use mutagen and had Rapid Regen instead or some such nonsense. Just a simple Yes or No option.

The only time this system would potentially screw you is if you were new to a role and got some impatient players. A simple "I'm new to this, so please excuse my mistakes." would help solve most of those issues instantly and while some players will still vote kick the newbie without a chance, not everyone is like that either so it's a 50/50 shot of getting kicked.