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Nothing was done to balance Dual Wield enchantments.

Pelican
Pelican
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The problem wasn't both enchantments being able to proc from one hit, it was double infused allowing both enchantments to proc every 2.5s with increased potency no matter what bar you're on, letting you do insane amounts of damage with just one rending slash. With double infused master axes you can inflict nearly 35K tooltip worth of enchants on top of 30k rending bleed, 12k axe bleed and multiple procs of status effects with one cheap ability. And don't even get me started on Torug's Pact.

Why does infused trait on each DW hand still have the same potency as a 2H weapon such as bows or staff while other traits such as sharpened or precise are cut in half? What's the point of going anything else besides double infused dual wield now? You guys are effectively killing the concept of ability combos to deal high damage by implementing broken mechanics that allow for lazy and overpowered damage and obviously have NOT learnt from past mistakes like the proc set apocalypse in homestead and Sload's Semblance in Summerset.

The changes implemented in 4.2.6 is not enough and infused dual wield enchantments are still blatantly overpowered especially paired with Torugs. Please don't let us sit through the entire Murkmire patch dealing with broken enchantments like we did with Sloads in Summerset.

And don't tell me dual wield enchant nerfs will affect PVE dps. Right now DPS is broken strong in PVE and many good groups are able to skip vet trial mechanics with 100k+ DPS per player, it wouldn't hurt PVE one bit. https://youtu.be/7_92NppBv9I
Just see for yourself.
Edited by Pelican on October 30, 2018 5:39PM
PC NA - EP Solo PvP Player
https://www.youtube.com/c/pelicaneso
  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
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    @Pelican , the issue was in easy fire-and-forget application of two enchants using twin slashes. Now slashes can only proc enchantments with half the rate they used to, and players have to actually work in order to make enchantments proc - deal light/heavy attacks and keeping on casting abilities. So you still can inflict that damage, you just have to work for it. That's not a bad concept.

    As for balance - that's another matter. Before Murkmire, in PvE, enchantments on front bar was proc'd from weaving, and it wasn't causing disbalance with staves, because staves have own strengths. 2H is in oubliette for reasons only partially related to enchantments, the skill line is generally clunky.
  • Pelican
    Pelican
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    The only thing that was done was to make both enchants unable to proc simultaneously, but over a period of time they will still have the same number of procs. Its like changing 10k damage every 2s to 5k damage every 1s.
    PC NA - EP Solo PvP Player
    https://www.youtube.com/c/pelicaneso
  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
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    @Pelican , over a period of time - only if you work for it. Twin slashes can't proc them as many times as they used to, not anymore, that was the issue that caused the uproar. Twin slashes have tick rate of 2s, and since now single damage tick can only proc one enchantment (even if both are on cooldown), single application of slashes will now give halved rate of enchantment procs (once per tick instead of two per tick). So now, you're still welcome to squeeze the rest from enchantments, but you have to apply attacks and weapon abilities for it.
  • Olquorron
    Olquorron
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    Yep, today's fix does absolutely NOTHING to address an utterly game-breaking problem.
  • Rukzadlithau
    Rukzadlithau
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    @John_Falstaff

    It‘s absurd how people still try to defend the enchant potency on 1 handed weapons. It defies all logic and causes the mess we have now. „Work for it“ lmao, the audacity to justify the devolution of a dynamic combat system.
  • Pelican
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    @John_Falstaff i see what you mean and I agree with you, people have to work harder now to get the full proc rate but even if you dont get the full proc rate, infused dual wield enchants are still overpowered and broken as you get double the enchantment capabilities as bow, staves or 2h.
    PC NA - EP Solo PvP Player
    https://www.youtube.com/c/pelicaneso
  • Royaji
    Royaji
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    Sometimes I really pity the guys at ZOS.

    A massive overhaul is done: "ZOS why do you have to ruin everything?!!11! Do small changes and see what happens!!1!!"
    A small change is done: "ZOS why is everything still ruined?!?!11? You are not doing enough, we need a bigger overhaul or PvP will die in a week!!1!!"

    They really can't win, huh?
  • evoniee
    evoniee
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    i believe now (4.2.6) dw bleed only proc 1 enhanctment as it only proc 1 damage at the time. didferent than rending slash initial hit, it count as 2, we can see it clearly.
    overall they change nothing with direct damage 'on dw skill' as we normaly weaving light attack in skill, it proc 2 enhanct at same time 'only on dw skill' pretty much.
    the difference now is the dot only proc 1 glyph in 1 tick dot bleed rending slash.
  • Rukzadlithau
    Rukzadlithau
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    Royaji wrote: »
    Sometimes I really pity the guys at ZOS.

    A massive overhaul is done: "ZOS why do you have to ruin everything?!!11! Do small changes and see what happens!!1!!"
    A small change is done: "ZOS why is everything still ruined?!?!11? You are not doing enough, we need a bigger overhaul or PvP will die in a week!!1!!"

    They really can't win, huh?

    The change they did, and the impact on performance it causes can be estimated without actually playing the game.

    I‘m totally for the change, that any weapon enchant procs off any damage caused by a weapon ability from said weapon - even if this in itself somewhat degrades skillful gameplay (perfect light attack weaving, selection of specific skills).

    But the way it is now DW totally outperforms any resource free damage source in the game. Decreasing enchant potency on 1 handed weapons, yes also sNb, is the most logical and balance restoring solution.

    This also appreciates the use of 2handed weapons for their actual enchant potency. But I already shudder to imagine what bogus the combat team comes up with. Makeing enchants non critable because it‘s „proc damage“, nerf torugs which should be the go to for sNb infused when it‘s only 50% potency, destroy the infused trait which makes 2h less interesting again.
  • EPelite
    EPelite
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    the problem is that enchants proc on dots from weapons. remove that and its fixed… its that simple...
    make them proc on the hit from a weapon ability - heave - light attacks and thats it... its so simple that ZOS cant even see it.

    Malleus
    Edited by EPelite on October 29, 2018 3:13PM
  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    What I don’t understand is why ZOS is giving out free damage like candy. They state in patch note after patch note that the decision between defense and offense should be a deliberate one. And in the same patch notes they add more and more free damage, allowing every player - and foremost the stam ones - to build for defense and let the damage come from the sources you don’t have to invest into. It’s mind-boggling.
    Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar
    All chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.
  • Swomp23
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    evoniee wrote: »
    i believe now (4.2.6) dw bleed only proc 1 enhanctment as it only proc 1 damage at the time. didferent than rending slash initial hit, it count as 2, we can see it clearly.
    overall they change nothing with direct damage 'on dw skill' as we normaly weaving light attack in skill, it proc 2 enhanct at same time 'only on dw skill' pretty much.
    the difference now is the dot only proc 1 glyph in 1 tick dot bleed rending slash.

    From how I understand it, before 4.2.6 patch, some people were running double dw, with cloak on back bar. Every 3 second, both enchants were proccing due to the cloak tick. Now only 1 will proc, making this abusing build worthless. You're better back barring bow with PI or 2H with brawler (still pretty strong).

    The other thing, after applying cloak and rending slashes, people could go all-in turtle mode and let the enchants do all the work. Everyone but templars with purge was doomed. Now they have to keep attacking to have the same damage output, giving their opponent a chance to kill them.

    It's still probably very strong. OP? We will have to see in 1 or 2 days. One thing is certain, meta has definitely shifted back to heavy armor with proc sets (I count Torug as a proc set).
    XBox One - NA
  • vyrzeden
    vyrzeden
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    Buzo wrote: »
    Royaji wrote: »
    Sometimes I really pity the guys at ZOS.

    A massive overhaul is done: "ZOS why do you have to ruin everything?!!11! Do small changes and see what happens!!1!!"
    A small change is done: "ZOS why is everything still ruined?!?!11? You are not doing enough, we need a bigger overhaul or PvP will die in a week!!1!!"

    They really can't win, huh?

    The change they did, and the impact on performance it causes can be estimated without actually playing the game.

    I‘m totally for the change, that any weapon enchant procs off any damage caused by a weapon ability from said weapon - even if this in itself somewhat degrades skillful gameplay (perfect light attack weaving, selection of specific skills).

    But the way it is now DW totally outperforms any resource free damage source in the game. Decreasing enchant potency on 1 handed weapons, yes also sNb, is the most logical and balance restoring solution.

    This also appreciates the use of 2handed weapons for their actual enchant potency. But I already shudder to imagine what bogus the combat team comes up with. Makeing enchants non critable because it‘s „proc damage“, nerf torugs which should be the go to for sNb infused when it‘s only 50% potency, destroy the infused trait which makes 2h less interesting again.

    So you're fine then with having greatly reduced crusher/weakening enchants run by tanks? I realize this is all PvP focused, but that's the outcome being suggested.
  • Rukzadlithau
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    @vyrzeden
    What keeps you from actually applying your crusher enchant with a 2h backbar?
  • vyrzeden
    vyrzeden
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    Buzo wrote: »
    @vyrzeden
    What keeps you from actually applying your crusher enchant with a 2h backbar?

    The fact that I don't need to today? And one of crusher or weakening (assuming as a tank that both are being used) still loses out in this scenario.
  • Royaji
    Royaji
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    Buzo wrote: »
    Royaji wrote: »
    Sometimes I really pity the guys at ZOS.

    A massive overhaul is done: "ZOS why do you have to ruin everything?!!11! Do small changes and see what happens!!1!!"
    A small change is done: "ZOS why is everything still ruined?!?!11? You are not doing enough, we need a bigger overhaul or PvP will die in a week!!1!!"

    They really can't win, huh?

    But the way it is now DW totally outperforms any resource free damage source in the game. Decreasing enchant potency on 1 handed weapons, yes also sNb, is the most logical and balance restoring solution.

    Nope. If you insist on parity between two-handers and dual wield it is only fair to expect the same for one-handed and shield. You've ever noticed how noone really runs anything except infused with it? Having half a trait/enchant is just not worth it. And no, the defensive trait/enchant from shield does not make up for that.

    I can only consider halving one-handed enchants if shields actually get offensive traits on them and slotting two of the same - like, two infused crushers - means having just one full power enchant like it works on two handers. Otherwise we are just tilting the balance the other way.
  • Rukzadlithau
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    @vyrzeden
    Ah, so comfort keeps you from actually using it.
  • vyrzeden
    vyrzeden
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    Buzo wrote: »
    @vyrzeden
    Ah, so comfort keeps you from actually using it.

    Conveniently ignoring the second part of my response? That's fine. But please go ahead and explain to all the vet tanks for HM trials and such why their enchants should be cut in half so your PvP experience is better. Go ahead, I'll wait.
  • Pelican
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    Simple, remove the cooldown part for 1H weapons. With dual wield 1H weapons you're effectively getting twice the number of procs which equals to the halved duration given to infused weapons. With s&b you will still have the same potency but no cooldown reduction, so you dont have to worry about a lower crusher value. It's kind of fair since dual wield still has two damage enchantments, and s&b has an armor enchantment as well, putting their enchantment effectiveness on par with 2H, bow and staves.
    PC NA - EP Solo PvP Player
    https://www.youtube.com/c/pelicaneso
  • Rukzadlithau
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    @vyrzeden
    Don‘t you think in organized HM trial groups someone else can apply the other enchant?

    Your PvE comfort ruins others PvP experience. I like the suggestion of the shield having a weapon trait alot, the stat imbalance while bar swapping was always nonsense.
  • arkansas_ESO
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    vyrzeden wrote: »
    Buzo wrote: »
    @vyrzeden
    Ah, so comfort keeps you from actually using it.

    Conveniently ignoring the second part of my response? That's fine. But please go ahead and explain to all the vet tanks for HM trials and such why their enchants should be cut in half so your PvP experience is better. Go ahead, I'll wait.

    /shrug

    The change to enchants proccing off DOTs is an increase to PVE DPS anyways, all these changes would do is indirectly lower the DPS that this change raised in the first place.

    Enchants should probably be changed to how they worked prior to Murkmire, in any case. It shows a lot that we're now looking desperately for somewhere to start nerfing to accommodate the massive power creep that this change just put in the game.
    Edited by arkansas_ESO on October 29, 2018 4:10PM


    Grand Overlord 25/8/17
  • vyrzeden
    vyrzeden
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    Buzo wrote: »
    @vyrzeden
    Don‘t you think in organized HM trial groups someone else can apply the other enchant?

    Your PvE comfort ruins others PvP experience. I like the suggestion of the shield having a weapon trait alot, the stat imbalance while bar swapping was always nonsense.

    Still dodgy, not surprised.

    Anyway, as an actual constructive solution to the "problem", simply increase the base cooldown on damage enchants if they are overperforming. This way torugs and infused don't need to be nerfed and overall enchant damage can be adjusted to better fit whatever model is expected. And since damage enchants already have different base cooldowns from things like crusher and weakening, we don't even have to nerf those to mess with tanks. As an added bonus, this would be equally impacted in PvE and PvP if the damage is out of line.

    See? Was that really so hard (you don't have to respond, I know the answer)?
  • Pelican
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    Lol the problem isin't about all enchants overperforming, its specifically dual wield enchantments overperforming. Nerfing enchantments all across the board won't do anything to make dual wield less OP compared to the other weapon choices.
    PC NA - EP Solo PvP Player
    https://www.youtube.com/c/pelicaneso
  • Darkenarlol
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    torug's gives only 1 extra tick on infused weapons on 8 sec dot ( 5 ticks instead of 4 )

    torug's bonus damage is about just 2k in CRIT in PvE

    after 2.4.6 dual wield goes equal in terms of glyph damage with other weapons

    if you slot 2 damage glyphs they fire 1 after another and not simultaneously as it was in 2.4.5

    so now with torug / infused dual wield you get 3 and 4 ticks instaed of 5+5

    it means the only enchantment benefit from dual wield you can get is slottint weapon damage glyph in

    addition to damage glyph


    this means you won't get any benefit from dw backbar or whatever on mag toon just for multi-proc glyph -

    you gonna get same results just with dot from clench (or blockade for some builds)


    every weapon skill line (exept resto staff and s&b) have some kind of dot to upkeep your enchant

    while swapping bars - so everybody is equal at this point with no extra bonuses of multy-procs from any skilline


    nice and really fast fix imo
  • twofaced
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    I looks like some dudes didn't even read changes. :D
    Twin Slashes which has 2 direct damage hits and several damage over time ticks, can proc both of your weapon enchantments over those hits
    Nothing was changed because they changed a bug. A BUG which allowed you to fire both enchants with single hit (you do realize that twin slashes hit with both weapon right?)
  • Pelican
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    twofaced wrote: »
    I looks like some dudes didn't even read changes. :D
    Twin Slashes which has 2 direct damage hits and several damage over time ticks, can proc both of your weapon enchantments over those hits
    Nothing was changed because they changed a bug. A BUG which allowed you to fire both enchants with single hit (you do realize that twin slashes hit with both weapon right?)

    FINALLY someone gets it
    PC NA - EP Solo PvP Player
    https://www.youtube.com/c/pelicaneso
  • Ulfgarde
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    vyrzeden wrote: »
    Buzo wrote: »
    @vyrzeden
    Don‘t you think in organized HM trial groups someone else can apply the other enchant?

    Your PvE comfort ruins others PvP experience. I like the suggestion of the shield having a weapon trait alot, the stat imbalance while bar swapping was always nonsense.

    Still dodgy, not surprised.

    Anyway, as an actual constructive solution to the "problem", simply increase the base cooldown on damage enchants if they are overperforming. This way torugs and infused don't need to be nerfed and overall enchant damage can be adjusted to better fit whatever model is expected. And since damage enchants already have different base cooldowns from things like crusher and weakening, we don't even have to nerf those to mess with tanks. As an added bonus, this would be equally impacted in PvE and PvP if the damage is out of line.

    See? Was that really so hard (you don't have to respond, I know the answer)?
    How would making enchants nerfed overall make any difference? The issue isn't cool down you realize that; it's how you're getting free damage from using minimal skills. Enchants were fine until 1. This change that lets dots fire enchants on weapon skills 2. The off bar change from wolf hunter that enabled even more glyphs.

    The change you listed would more likely kill enchants than actually make them work properly. This patch effectively changed very little to the actual problem.
    Very athletic eso player
    PC EU
  • reprosal
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    I am at work right now but can anyone verify if razor caltrops alternates 2 enchants on the ticks as it procs on a per second basis?
  • vyrzeden
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    reprosal wrote: »
    I am at work right now but can anyone verify if razor caltrops alternates 2 enchants on the ticks as it procs on a per second basis?

    Caltrops doesn't proc weapon enchants since it is not a weapon attack, it's an assault skill.
    Edited by vyrzeden on October 29, 2018 4:53PM
  • Mojomonkeyman
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    The fix PvP needs:
    Combining their current glyph proc ruleset (including single target dots) with pre-summerset glyph proc logic (only active bar enchant is proccing no matter from which bars dmg it is triggered) would be the most simple solution and guarantee a hardcap on potential dmg ouput without causing too much harm elsewhere.
    Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy
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