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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/574251/
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My biggest issue with PvP

Rampeal
Rampeal
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I may hurt some feelings and make people angry, but the biggest issue for me in PvP is Stamina users. Now hear me out. I run both stamina and magicka, So there is no bias here towards one or the other. It more or less boils down to Zos dropping the ball with PvP.

Where do I start. For one fact Stamina has Many more options in weapons than Ranged magicka does. Stamina has bow, dual weild, Two handed and shields. Magicka has one tree to go under for damage. Destruction staff. I know many will say "Well you get three staves and they have different attributes to each one". True, but it is minor at best compared to stamina. Stamina has Many more options and flexibility than Magicka. For example. Elemental blockade, It for Aoe. It comes in fire,ice and lightning with a "Chance" to cause a additional effect depending on staff. Two handed Aoe bleeds always, dual wield executes alway,sheild give heroism always, Bow applies dots, always. It is undeniable. Magicka builds more than most are left up to chance. Which brings me to my other point.
RNG. Most Stamina classes and builds have little to no RNG. Where as Magicka, Especially the class skills have to pray to the RNG gods with each cast. Example sorcerers Only real hard hitting skill crystal shards. You have to spam and waste huge amounts of mana just to get this to proc. Even then it is not Guarnteed to hit when it does due to Cloaks, shimmer sheilds, and wings. Where as all stamina skills especially the hard hitting ones do not rely on RNG. What about crystal blast? It is a cast time ability and ready to use at anytime. True, but like the Templars it is easy to interrupt. Again something else stamina does not have to deal with except for snipe. Sorcerers and Templars get the short end of the stick everytime. Which brings me to my next point.
Classes. When I first started playing this game it was a "Play as you want" game. Didn't matter what class I picked I could play any role with them. Zos even stated in a interview that picking a class did not limit what you could do, yet. Now most classes are shoe horned into one role. Except a few. And by few I mean warden, NB, and Dks. Here is my opinion why this is so.
Templars, Majority of Templars only excel in one role. Healer. Everything else they get out shined in. Tank. Dks, NB, and Wardens are far better choices. Stam Dps, again NB, Dks, wardens, Magicka Dps Dks, NB, Warden.

Same goes for sorcerer. They are shoe horned in the magicka dps role. They can do stamina dps and tanking but again the above classes out shine them too in those roles.

I know by now some are mad and will start the whole L2P and go Meta route, but has anything I said been untrue. Yes there is people out there that can take a nerfed sorcerer and templar and work magic with them. But those are far and few between. Just look at pvp nowdays. It is Stamina heavy, Majority running two handed and dual wield popping dawnbringers left and right. I don't blame them and I am not mad or salty at them. They want to win, even if it is not a character they really want to play.

My point is this game is heading downhill fast. In a few months especially after Murkmire comes out and all the Magicka nerf that is happening you will see more and more stamina in pvp. The few Magicka you will see are the ones who refused to use a FOTM build and will most likely be a free lunch for stamina. This game really needs a wake up call and start balancing this game rather than nerfing it.

I am not calling for a stamina nerf, just a magicka buff. Something small like each staff gets it's own tree. Frost could be Magickas sheild line, fire can be it's two handed and lightning could be it's dual weild. It would be small but at least give Magicka a boost it so desperately needs.

If you read this thank you for your time.
Edited by Rampeal on October 25, 2018 10:08AM
  • Chilly-McFreeze
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    To get this straight: I don't disagree with most of your points. It's obvious that currently stam is stronger in pvp, the shield and enchantment changes made this even clearer. However, I think your view is a bit lopsided. I'll keep this short and just give you food for thoughts here:

    1) number of choices
    You say stam has far more choices due to having 3 melee and 1 ranged weapon to choose from while mag has essentially 2 weapon and one of them isn't really for damage. You also decline the argument of 3 types of destro staves.

    But you don't acknowledge that some stamina classes (not all, that's for sure) suffer from a lack of good class skills. Add to that the limitation of 2 bars only and you realize that the "stam meta" isn't completely free as well. Most usefull stam skills are tied to weapons, means you are forced to run X if you want a viable Y as well. I can play heavy with DW & Bow, but then I'm a sitting duck with neither a hot+snare removal or gap closer. There's a reason why HA 2h&DW is meta and not med snb&bow.

    2) RNG
    Despite the fact that status effects like poisoned/ diseased are rng as well you also don't mention that the most meta passives and heavy sets are rng. Passive bleeds have a chance to apply, they don't apply 100% of the time. Stam Sorcs biggest boon Implosion is heavily RNG. (Such it is for magsorcs but implosion is nearly non-existant for them thanks to fury).
    Ravager has a bad proc chance on anything but a templar. I could even say that even 7th has only a proc chance but that condition is so wide that it's nearly perma up. On a sarcastic side note I'd put dizzying swing in the rng departement as well, with how difficulty it is to land.

    But again, I agree on many things. And I don't want to downplay the power of stam builds. It really feels like this game is going downhill and mag surely deverse some love. Like I said, just a few comments on things I felt are a bit onesided.
    Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on October 25, 2018 10:46AM
  • Rampeal
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    To get this straight: I don't disagree with most of your points. It's obvious that currently stam is stronger in pvp, the shield and enchantment changes made this even clearer. However, I think your view is a bit lopsided. I'll keep this short and just give you food for thoughts here:

    1) number of choices
    You say stam has far more choices due to having 3 melee and 1 ranged weapon to choose from while mag has essentially 2 weapon and one of them isn't really for damage. You also decline the argument of 3 types of destro staves.

    But you don't acknowledge that some stamina classes (not all, that's for sure) suffer from a lack of good class skills. Add to that the limitation of 2 bars only and you realize that the "stam meta" isn't completely free as well. Most usefull stam skills are tied to weapons, means you are forced to run X if you want a viable Y as well. I can play heavy with DW & Bow, but then I'm a sitting duck with neither a hot+snare removal or gap closer. There's a reason why HA 2h&DW is meta and not med snb&bow.

    2) RNG
    Despite the fact that status effects like poisoned/ diseased are rng as well you also don't mention that the most meta passives and heavy sets are rng. Passive bleeds have a chance to apply, they don't apply 100% of the time. Stam Sorcs biggest boon Implosion is heavily RNG. (Such it is for magsorcs but implosion is nearly non-existant for them thanks to fury).
    Ravager has a bad proc chance on anything but a templar. I could even say that even 7th has only a proc chance but that condition is so wide that it's nearly perma up. On a sarcastic side note I'd put dizzying swing in the rng departement as well, with how difficulty it is to land.

    But again, I agree on many things. And I don't want to downplay the power of stam builds. It really feels like this game is going downhill and mag surely deverse some love. Like I said, just a few comments on things I felt are a bit onesided.

    Thank you for being polite. I still say in Magicka vs Stamina. Stamina still win hands down for variety even with class skills. For example I will take my Templar and add up any and all magicka skills he has acess to using all skill lines available in the game including class skills,guild,world, weapon and armor and ultimates.

    Magicka Templar-56 (includes vampire)
    Stamina Templar-51(did not include WW)9

    So pretty even. Although stamina has way more variety in stamina damage skill than my magicka does. That is what I was trying to point out.

    As for RNG I was talking about skills not sets. Every build wether magicka or stamina has to worry about RNG on sets.

    But with the Magicka nerfs I see alot of magicka users going heavy if not switching to stamina all together, except for the stubborn hardcore players.
  • ChefZero
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    Rampeal wrote: »
    To get this straight: I don't disagree with most of your points. It's obvious that currently stam is stronger in pvp, the shield and enchantment changes made this even clearer. However, I think your view is a bit lopsided. I'll keep this short and just give you food for thoughts here:

    1) number of choices
    You say stam has far more choices due to having 3 melee and 1 ranged weapon to choose from while mag has essentially 2 weapon and one of them isn't really for damage. You also decline the argument of 3 types of destro staves.

    But you don't acknowledge that some stamina classes (not all, that's for sure) suffer from a lack of good class skills. Add to that the limitation of 2 bars only and you realize that the "stam meta" isn't completely free as well. Most usefull stam skills are tied to weapons, means you are forced to run X if you want a viable Y as well. I can play heavy with DW & Bow, but then I'm a sitting duck with neither a hot+snare removal or gap closer. There's a reason why HA 2h&DW is meta and not med snb&bow.

    2) RNG
    Despite the fact that status effects like poisoned/ diseased are rng as well you also don't mention that the most meta passives and heavy sets are rng. Passive bleeds have a chance to apply, they don't apply 100% of the time. Stam Sorcs biggest boon Implosion is heavily RNG. (Such it is for magsorcs but implosion is nearly non-existant for them thanks to fury).
    Ravager has a bad proc chance on anything but a templar. I could even say that even 7th has only a proc chance but that condition is so wide that it's nearly perma up. On a sarcastic side note I'd put dizzying swing in the rng departement as well, with how difficulty it is to land.

    But again, I agree on many things. And I don't want to downplay the power of stam builds. It really feels like this game is going downhill and mag surely deverse some love. Like I said, just a few comments on things I felt are a bit onesided.

    Thank you for being polite. I still say in Magicka vs Stamina. Stamina still win hands down for variety even with class skills. For example I will take my Templar and add up any and all magicka skills he has acess to using all skill lines available in the game including class skills,guild,world, weapon and armor and ultimates.

    Magicka Templar-56 (includes vampire)
    Stamina Templar-51(did not include WW)9

    So pretty even. Although stamina has way more variety in stamina damage skill than my magicka does. That is what I was trying to point out.

    As for RNG I was talking about skills not sets. Every build wether magicka or stamina has to worry about RNG on sets.

    But with the Magicka nerfs I see alot of magicka users going heavy if not switching to stamina all together, except for the stubborn hardcore players.

    + most magicka build's don't use any stamina skills, but most stamina build's can easily slot 3 to 5 magicka skills skills
    PC EU - DC only
  • MaxJrFTW
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    Stopped reading when you mentioned stamina has more options. Magicka has A LOT more viable abilities at their disposal, a lot more viable sets(especially in no cp), and a lot more build variety.

    Ask any stamina player what their build is and you'll see that most of them use Bone Pirate as their main set. Most of them use Blood Spawn as their monster set. Most of them will slot Vigor, Momentum, Whirlwind, Twin Slashes, and now Blade Cloak for the evasion. This is even more evident in PvE where every stam class is exactly the same except for a 3-4 class skills.

    Your argument is objectively wrong.

    This game is growing and it's pretty clear if you've been playing the last few months. The growing twitch viewership also makes it quite clear. That's yet another thing where you're completely wrong.
    ChefZero wrote: »
    + most magicka build's don't use any stamina skills, but most stamina build's can easily slot 3 to 5 magicka skills skills
    Magicka builds don't use stamina skills because they don't need to. Stamina uses magicka skills because pretty much every useful utility skill is magicka based. You're forced to slot magicka skills.
    Edited by MaxJrFTW on October 26, 2018 5:27AM
    "I don't know you, and I don't care to know you."
    ―Ulrich Leland, 3E 433
  • Rampeal
    Rampeal
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    MaxJrFTW wrote: »
    Stopped reading when you mentioned stamina has more options. Magicka has A LOT more viable abilities at their disposal, a lot more viable sets(especially in no cp), and a lot more build variety.

    Ask any stamina player what their build is and you'll see that most of them use Bone Pirate as their main set. Most of them use Blood Spawn as their monster set. Most of them will slot Vigor, Momentum, Whirlwind, Twin Slashes, and now Blade Cloak for the evasion. This is even more evident in PvE where every stam class is exactly the same except for a 3-4 class skills.

    Your argument is objectively wrong.

    This game is growing and it's pretty clear if you've been playing the last few months. The growing twitch viewership also makes it quite clear. That's yet another thing where you're completely wrong.
    ChefZero wrote: »
    + most magicka build's don't use any stamina skills, but most stamina build's can easily slot 3 to 5 magicka skills skills
    Magicka builds don't use stamina skills because they don't need to. Stamina uses magicka skills because pretty much every useful utility skill is magicka based. You're forced to slot magicka skills.

    Yeah because no stamina runs snipe, poison injection, dawnbringer,caltrops,shalks,noxious breath,venomous claw,jabs,backlash,dizzying swing,ect ect. And as you stated most of the utility spell in the game are magicka which is over half of Magicka "Viable" options and majority of them are almost useless. So yes Stamina not only tops Magicka in damaging skills, but also has more "Viable" damaging skills than Magicka does with the option to still equip this "Viable"skills and does not effect their main resource. So yes Stamina has and will always have a clear advantage over Magicka. And I guess no one runs spriggans, hunding rage,Troll king, Slimecraw, Sheer venom, or any of those sets...
  • wheem_ESO
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    MaxJrFTW wrote: »
    Magicka builds don't use stamina skills because they don't need to. Stamina uses magicka skills because pretty much every useful utility skill is magicka based. You're forced to slot magicka skills.
    Magicka builds don't eschew Stamina skills because we "don't need them," we do so because our stamina has to be devoted to break free and/or dodge roll. If you're a Magicka build that runs out of Stamina and gets targeted, you die.
  • MaxJrFTW
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    wheem_ESO wrote: »
    MaxJrFTW wrote: »
    Magicka builds don't use stamina skills because they don't need to. Stamina uses magicka skills because pretty much every useful utility skill is magicka based. You're forced to slot magicka skills.
    Magicka builds don't eschew Stamina skills because we "don't need them," we do so because our stamina has to be devoted to break free and/or dodge roll. If you're a Magicka build that runs out of Stamina and gets targeted, you die.

    It's the same for everybody, if a stamplar gets dotted up without magicka to cleanse it's gg. Same with Dk and scales, same with nightblades and cloak, etc.
    "I don't know you, and I don't care to know you."
    ―Ulrich Leland, 3E 433
  • wheem_ESO
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    MaxJrFTW wrote: »
    wheem_ESO wrote: »
    MaxJrFTW wrote: »
    Magicka builds don't use stamina skills because they don't need to. Stamina uses magicka skills because pretty much every useful utility skill is magicka based. You're forced to slot magicka skills.
    Magicka builds don't eschew Stamina skills because we "don't need them," we do so because our stamina has to be devoted to break free and/or dodge roll. If you're a Magicka build that runs out of Stamina and gets targeted, you die.

    It's the same for everybody, if a stamplar gets dotted up without magicka to cleanse it's gg. Same with Dk and scales, same with nightblades and cloak, etc.
    No, it's not the same (maybe cloak is an exception sometimes, but that's it). In fact DK Wings are useless vs all of the non-archer Stam builds out there, though a straight up hard counter to many Magicka players. Being able to break free is never useless for anyone, however. The only times I can think of where I've seen someone survive an unbroken CC + damage dump, is when they had a significant amount of outside help in the form of big heals and/or counter CC/pressure.

    A Magicka build without Stamina is in a lot worse shape than a Stamina build without Magicka. That's not to say that some Magicka based abilities can't be incredibly strong for Stam builds, but it's not the same thing as a guaranteed death if the resource temporarily runs dry.
  • mojomood
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    MaxJrFTW wrote: »
    Stopped reading when you mentioned stamina has more options. Magicka has A LOT more viable abilities at their disposal, a lot more viable sets(especially in no cp), and a lot more build variety.
    ChefZero wrote: »
    + most magicka build's don't use any stamina skills, but most stamina build's can easily slot 3 to 5 magicka skills skills
    Magicka builds don't use stamina skills because they don't need to. Stamina uses magicka skills because pretty much every useful utility skill is magicka based. You're forced to slot magicka skills.

    Magicka builds often feel like a sub-optimal version of a stam build. Magicka has more class skills and maybe more variety, but all of them are second to Stamina. For instance, I want to know who was really mad over the Dreugh King Slayer nerf? No one. Because no one uses it. But I still see mag players in Rattlecage. It gives a major buff, not even the speed and they'll use it because there is no easy access to Major Sorcery except a skill that really only fits in DoT builds or a potion.

    And you're wrong on magicka builds not using stam skills cause they don't need. They don't use them because them need them for break free and dodge roll.
  • susmitds
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    wheem_ESO wrote: »
    MaxJrFTW wrote: »
    wheem_ESO wrote: »
    MaxJrFTW wrote: »
    Magicka builds don't use stamina skills because they don't need to. Stamina uses magicka skills because pretty much every useful utility skill is magicka based. You're forced to slot magicka skills.
    Magicka builds don't eschew Stamina skills because we "don't need them," we do so because our stamina has to be devoted to break free and/or dodge roll. If you're a Magicka build that runs out of Stamina and gets targeted, you die.

    It's the same for everybody, if a stamplar gets dotted up without magicka to cleanse it's gg. Same with Dk and scales, same with nightblades and cloak, etc.
    No, it's not the same (maybe cloak is an exception sometimes, but that's it). In fact DK Wings are useless vs all of the non-archer Stam builds out there, though a straight up hard counter to many Magicka players. Being able to break free is never useless for anyone, however. The only times I can think of where I've seen someone survive an unbroken CC + damage dump, is when they had a significant amount of outside help in the form of big heals and/or counter CC/pressure.

    A Magicka build without Stamina is in a lot worse shape than a Stamina build without Magicka. That's not to say that some Magicka based abilities can't be incredibly strong for Stam builds, but it's not the same thing as a guaranteed death if the resource temporarily runs dry.

    While I agree about what you say for stamdk, stamden, stamsorc or stamplar, I will have to disagree for stamblade. A stamblade out of magicka, especially if medium armor, is a dead stamblade.
    Edited by susmitds on October 29, 2018 8:58AM
  • wheem_ESO
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    susmitds wrote: »
    wheem_ESO wrote: »
    MaxJrFTW wrote: »
    wheem_ESO wrote: »
    MaxJrFTW wrote: »
    Magicka builds don't use stamina skills because they don't need to. Stamina uses magicka skills because pretty much every useful utility skill is magicka based. You're forced to slot magicka skills.
    Magicka builds don't eschew Stamina skills because we "don't need them," we do so because our stamina has to be devoted to break free and/or dodge roll. If you're a Magicka build that runs out of Stamina and gets targeted, you die.

    It's the same for everybody, if a stamplar gets dotted up without magicka to cleanse it's gg. Same with Dk and scales, same with nightblades and cloak, etc.
    No, it's not the same (maybe cloak is an exception sometimes, but that's it). In fact DK Wings are useless vs all of the non-archer Stam builds out there, though a straight up hard counter to many Magicka players. Being able to break free is never useless for anyone, however. The only times I can think of where I've seen someone survive an unbroken CC + damage dump, is when they had a significant amount of outside help in the form of big heals and/or counter CC/pressure.

    A Magicka build without Stamina is in a lot worse shape than a Stamina build without Magicka. That's not to say that some Magicka based abilities can't be incredibly strong for Stam builds, but it's not the same thing as a guaranteed death if the resource temporarily runs dry.

    While I agree about what you say for stamdk, stamden, stamsorc or stamplar, I will have to disagree for stamblade. A stamblade out of magicka, especially if medium armor, is a dead stamblade.
    I did say, "(maybe cloak is an exception sometimes, but that's it)." Depending on the situation, it's sometimes possible for a Stamblade to escape without cloak. I've seen plenty sprint + dodge roll a time or two and get distance while avoiding damage. That's not likely to work against most Stam builds, what with gap closers not having a cooldown of any kind, but it's frequently enough to escape from Magicka builds.

    Is it better to be a Stamblade that's out of magicka and trying to escape, or a Stamblade that's stunned and can't break free? :p. Both are really bad situations to be in, but I do think that one is just a bit worse.
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