Too many skills/combat features

Knootewoot · October 2018

Are there to many features in the game combat wise?

While most mmo's only have class specific skills and classes can only wear specific types of armor/weapons, ESO has class specific skills, weapon and armor skills, guild skills, alliance skills, world skills, enchants, poisons, potions, armor procs, pointy sticks etc. while everybody can mix and match any weapon and armor type

Nerfing one makes another powerfull and changing one thing can make or break an entire build.

It may be there are to many skills in the game and it is impossible to make PVP a balanced fun experience.

Edit: I had a poll, but it don't work 🙄

CalibarZero · October 2018

i actually like the fact that there's all these skills, armors, weapons, etc, it really opens up the option for weird fun builds and makes for great character building even if you aren't into roleplaying

it makes the game feel really open, wow used to have a fair bit of customization too, but ever since cataclysm those systems and customization options kept getting more and more restrictive until all that was left by the time of Legion / BFA was 3 sets of predetermined skills that a class could use, suddenly you were either Hunter TYPE A, B or C, and was exactly the same as every other hunter of that type

And likewise, the player numbers in wow kept going down and down until legion came along and brought back some of that customization in the form of artifact weapons, until they supposedly remove that in BFA where the numbers dropped like a rock again

i think as long as there's a balanced set of "meta" builds that periodically changes to shake things up, we should be fine when it comes to customization

TL:DR, the more customization and character options the better

Juju_beans · October 2018

I'd rather have more than less. Gives you options, many options for trying out different types of builds.

Anotherone773 · October 2018

I actually think its a sloppy mess. We can all be different in name, but all the same in build. I actually like Trion's Rift when it comes to character building. Its a far far better system that allows a much greater variety of builds. Being any class and using a flame staff or being able to heal the group or tank...etc is just boring. I really dont feel much different playing two different classes with the same weapons. A few different abilities but most of those go to waste because im only allowed to use 5 and ult at a time and i have to depend on weapon swap which is absolutely horrible. half the time it doesnt go off in combat and the other half it goes off a few seconds later.

This game could be so much better if they would quit trying to be unique and do what has been tried and tested and works and branch out from that. But instead they decided they were going to try to rewrite the book on MMORPGs despite having zero experience in MMOS.

Knootewoot · October 2018

Yeah I agree. My poll would clarify more but the options didn't show.

For PvE and RP all the options are great.

For PvP it is to hard to balance imho. I do enjoy PvP, but it should not get to much in the way of pve. But I cannot think of any solution to balance PvP and PvE.

Wing · October 2018

I would say the only big difference is the effect are introduced in ways that are introduced to everyone instead of being relegated to classes or class skills.

for instance alchemy, enchanting, and provisioning are all deeply rooted within the world, from harvesting plants to looting boxes to finding soul gems, to cooking food, crafting or looting various potions, harvesting your thousandth Ta or looting full glyphs.

and I think its really cool when things like hour long stat buffs or xp pots can be traced back to fishing and thieving ingredients off docked cargo ships, makes the world feel far more organic and rewarding then simply investing skill points.

that said I would love to see more weapon lines introduced to really break up gameplay, we desperately need an unarmed / monk line for stamina, and there was a rumored "sword and orb" line for melee magicka.

as well as more classes, as complex as it can be nothing balances out classes like the introduction of more classes, if you only have two choices it is very easy to make a choice and figre out wich is "better", if you have 6 choices it gets more difficult, and so on.

Tasear · October 2018

:'( someone else suffered the poll bug

(P.S it's a bug with chrome...use Firefox)

Personally I don't think we have enough skills, but as your class rep will bookmark and see what people say.

Emma_Overload · October 2018

No. Class and Weapon skills are fine. The problem with this game is that there are too many wierd procs and mechanics that come from gear that are WAY more powerful than Class and Weapon skills.

This means that bad players can easily (and often) beat good players with the right gear and a bit of luck. This is really frustrating and discouraging for long time players. What is the point of "gitting gud" if it doesn't matter in the end, anyway?

jcm2606 · October 2018

Personally, I like having all these systems overlap. It gives players many avenues to tailor their build specifically for their playstyle, and it is what sets ESO apart from the myriad of other MMO's within the ecosystem.

I get what you mean, having so many systems can make it difficult to balance them, but this really isn't a problem if you have a high level "plan" of everything, and take care when adjusting things. This is the problem Zenimax currently has, the high level "plan" seemingly changes each patch, and they carelessly swing a sledgehammer around in the name of balance, rolling out sweeping changes that completely uproot the entire meta.

I don't necessarily agree with your outlooks on PVE and PVP, though.

In PVE, while there are options, you really don't have much incentive to use them. It's a numbers game, the meta is naturally going to shift over to whatever build pulls the highest DPS or fulfills a certain role the best. We've seen this countless times. Currently, Nightblade's reign supreme, however a few patches ago, stamDK was at the top, then several patches before that, magicka in general was the meta. It is always going to shift as the game evolves, so while you do have all of these options, you really have little incentive to use them to come up with unique builds.

Conversely, in PVP, there is incentive to use all of these options, simply due to how PVP is balanced. ESO's PVP is fundamentally a rock-paper-scissors game, where one class/build/set/skill/playstyle counters another. Because of this, no one setup is the best, unlike PVE. There is a lot more room for unique builds, and lots of people run unique builds and perform about as well as those with meta builds.

The problem with balance in PVP, though, is one specific setup does perform the best, but it doesn't make it the best. There will still be counters to it, hence there will still be reasons to use those counters, and come up with unique builds. How effective those counters are differs for each meta setup, but they still do exist.

Camael · October 2018

Amount of skills and combat feature is good for versatility. 1 thing we miss is class change token to help us overcome issues related with patches(yes, I know... moat will run same classes and simillar builds😬) but I feel bit sorry for some classes every single patch...

Mayrael · October 2018

This is the exact reason why I like ESO. I'm sick of MMOwannabeRPGs where you have almost no choice how to build your character. Yeah it's easier to balance but is boring as h**l. I prefer to have some slight imbalances than have limited choice. How to build a balance in ESO? Each setup should have at least one weakness.

High armor and high damage - low sustain
High damage and high sustain - low armor
High sustain and high armor - low damage

Work around this, I know it's easier said than done, and we will have something close to balance.

Knootewoot · October 2018

Camael wrote: »

Amount of skills and combat feature is good for versatility. 1 thing we miss is class change token to help us overcome issues related with patches(yes, I know... moat will run same classes and simillar builds😬) but I feel bit sorry for some classes every single patch...

Well, at least a cheap or free skill reset would be nice after a big change.

MLGProPlayer · October 2018

The problem is that all the skills are the same. They just have different animations. There is very little class variety in terms of play style. It doesn't help that a lot of weapon/alliance/guild skills are effectively mandatory.

idk · October 2018

I like the choices and options.

The issue is Zos has issues figuring out how ot manage a game with so many choices with a variety of unique skills leading to so different build choices.

5 very different classes, 4 damage weapons plus 2 support weapons then 3 armors and mag vs stam. Not to mention guild skills.

With each of the classes they play so differently. This is more noticeable on the magicka side than stam but that has more to do with the limitations of stam.

blacksghost · October 2018

Too many of everything. I don’t have a degree in higher mathematics so I have no idea which of the infinite combinations is best.

max_only · October 2018

Not enough skill slots maybe.

nryerson1025 · October 2018

Tasear wrote: »

:'( someone else suffered the poll bug

(P.S it's a bug with chrome...use Firefox)

Personally I don't think we have enough skills, but as your class rep will bookmark and see what people say.

i just wanna say, Tasear, I admire how often I see you participating in these posts and agreeing to dig deeper.

Sylosi · October 2018

I think it depends on what people prioritise.

For those who like making lots of builds it is very good as they have tons of options, but for those who value balance or individuality of classes it is bad.

pkuronen · October 2018

I would say the contrary. We have too few variables in the equation resulting these meta builds that everyone does. We need more skills, spells, potions etc to make the playing field heterogenic.

Gargath · October 2018

One say too many another say too little or enough.
You can’t please everyone.

To me it's more than enough and I like it, becuase you can make up to 15 characters and every one of them can be unique with it's own skills, abilities, gears, foods, etc.

Aesthier · October 2018

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

The problem is that all the skills are the same. They just have different animations. There is very little class variety in terms of play style. It doesn't help that a lot of weapon/alliance/guild skills are effectively mandatory.

@MLGProPlayer Once again you expressed exactly what I feel.

Nilarynpaw · October 2018

In my opinion, this isn't a bad thing, because having more skills and the possibility to create different builds and allows you trying different playstyles makes the game more open and vivid.

For me, it was a bit confusing at first, because I played WoW, Skyrim, Diablo III etc. for years and there you don't have so many options, your hands are tied after a certain level.

max_only wrote: »

Not enough skill slots maybe.

Agreed. ^
I could also use one or two more slots.

Turelus · October 2018

I love that there are so many options, I just wish more of it was viable.

We've kind of been pigeon holed into specific types of builds with changes over the years meaning meeting people who can achieve good DPS in PvE with an interesting and unique build is rare.
PvP does have more freedom in build design but there are still some skills or sets which are pretty much the core skills or sets everyone will run for builds.

TheShadowScout · October 2018

Knootewoot wrote: »

Are there to many features in the game combat wise?

No.

If anything, there are not enough. At least not enough options that are equal in their combat power... There -should- be tons of options, so many that no two characters will be likely to run the same setup! So that everyone is different, yet noone is weaker in effect because of it!

Diversity is where the fun is!

max_only wrote: »

Not enough skill slots maybe.

Actually that is what makes it go nifty.
That you only have a limited number of skill slots so you have to -choose- which skill options you want to slot...

It is a -way- better system then staring at two dozend cooldown timers for your "perfect rotation" over and over again...

FakeFox · October 2018

You could argue that ESO has a too open class system and I agree that this causes some problems, but that has nothing to do with the amount of skills. In fact most other MMOs I know have far more, but in a less open class system.

RainfeatherUK · October 2018

Having some build variety is nice but its come at the cost of homogeneity and a lack of real flavour. Stam and Magicka on both sides have become trite, predictable and much of the skills are expectations, assuming you aren't amongst the anti-social play a game solo crowd.

I find the class design boring, because there is no real distinction or worth to them now. People tend to know I like the trinity and so its no surprise this game can be a tenuous 'fit' for me though anyway.

But i definitely think its moved towards class skills being spoiled or neutered, the abomination of the CP system/procs and whatever other nonsense. Its easy to see coming and far too simplistic in execution, with the limited skill selection at once (which as always been a pet hate, as i dont see how its remotely challenging to spam 3 or so buttons, assuming double toggles, over and over).

The game is built for idiots. There are a few things i sometimes enjoy - but combat aint one.

Red_Feather · October 2018

Original guild wars had primary/secondary professions and well over a thousand skills.

In Guild Wars 2 a skill balancer on GW1 said it was too hard to balance guild wars 1. As a result in GW2 development it was decided that they would reduce the number of skills, take away primary/secondary profession mechanic and make half the skill bar glued to weapon type and the other half of the hotbar have it so each slot was skill type specific. This would 'compartmentalize' everything and reduce the amount of synergies and make it easier to nerf something without affecting everything else.

And with all those changes the game is still so imbalanced it was actually celebrated when the game was dropped by ESL and no longer pushed as an e-sport game. I guess they'll figure out some day what the actual issue was that makes it all so hard to balance.

Anotherone773 · October 2018

Another issue that was mentioned above is this whole meta game. We have a DPS creep because of the way the system is designed and they keep making normal content harder but it doesnt change anything. it is like playing ping pong and it only leads to a toxic environment and elitism. They even started doing this healers in fang lair and especially scalecaller. " lets just throw a massive amount of damage at the group, so the healer is forced to have an HPS creep like the DPS."

I would rather see some creativity. Not a wow fanboy at all but at least wow had some mechanic requirements of certain classes and it wasnt always about max dps. It was more important to know mechanics than it was to be a glass cannon. Here a majority of bosses can be done by " stay out of red, DPS down before enrage timer"

DPS should not be the best option or even a viable option all the time but it is always the best option.

Solariken · October 2018

There can never be enough IMO. More please.

RedRook · October 2018

What? No. We must be playing two different games.

Zardayne · October 2018

Aesthier wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

The problem is that all the skills are the same. They just have different animations. There is very little class variety in terms of play style. It doesn't help that a lot of weapon/alliance/guild skills are effectively mandatory.

@MLGProPlayer Once again you expressed exactly what I feel.

Yep me too