Slotting Evil Hunter on Back Bar?

Armisael9 · October 2018

I am planning on switching in the near future to a bow on front and back bar and was wondering if it is necessary to slot Evil Hunter on my back bar when I activate Razor Caltrops and Endless Hail? I will have it my front bar regardless.

Basically, will Razor and Endless benefit from Evil Hunter on my front bar or do they need to have Evil Hunter on the back bar at activation to benefit from the Major Savagery/crit increase?

Thanks for the help!

John_Falstaff · October 2018

There's a chance I'll be mistaken here, so others will correct me, but it goes like this - ground AoEs like Hail or Caltrops will recalculate their stats every damage tick, so only their ticks that happen on back bar will benefit from the Hunter slotted on back bar. Single target DoTs though - that being Poison Injection - will take 'snapshot' of stats to use throughout the DoT. I frankly thought it was fixed (I never actually took time to check that), but I recently heard it's still the case. So, PI will run with weapon damage from back bar, and Hunter will affect it.

Armisael9 · October 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

There's a chance I'll be mistaken here, so others will correct me, but it goes like this - ground AoEs like Hail or Caltrops will recalculate their stats every damage tick, so only their ticks that happen on back bar will benefit from the Hunter slotted on back bar. Single target DoTs though - that being Poison Injection - will take 'snapshot' of stats to use throughout the DoT. I frankly thought it was fixed (I never actually took time to check that), but I recently heard it's still the case. So, PI will run with weapon damage from back bar, and Hunter will affect it.

Thank you John! Just curious where you got this info? Sounds legit, but you alluded that you might not be correct?

witchdoctor · October 2018

I'm more curious as to why Evil Hunter in the first place?

What is the class, as many already have a source of Major Savagery elsewhere. Failing that, weapon power pots when it is really needed. Basically, double-barring EH may be a net loss.

susmitds · October 2018

Are you a Stamblade? Better to double-bar Relentless focus to both bars for more procs.
Are you a Stamden? You got more Ranged skills to add to your setup.
Are you a Stamsorc? You got better things to double-bar or maybe even add Dark Deal.
Are you a Stamplar? Bow-bow is general bad for you.
Are you a StamDK? You got better AoE and ranged skills to add to your setup.

John_Falstaff · October 2018

@Armisael9 , that ground DoTs recalculate stats for every damage tick, I think that was somewhere in patch notes from beginning of the year; I'm having trouble times finding it. That 'sticky' single target AoEs work with stats derived at the moment they were cast - someone on forums tested it, apparently, it came up in conversations, but it'd be handy to check from time to time in case ZoS made some changes (nothing about it in recent patch notes though, not that I can remember).

@witchdoctor , Evil Hunter is handy for moments when you just don't want to burn weapon power potions to get it (like between bosses, on trash fights, or on a boss you don't feel worth burning expensive potions on). Silver Leash may be of more use, but for long time it was bugged and wasn't giving weapon damage boost from FG passive (it's fixed now though). In addition, getting it passively is a bit of a boost (for instance, if one runs AY front bar, then they don't want to use more than three skills on back bar in rotation, not to let AY stacks fall off).

witchdoctor · October 2018

That's (partly) it though, I don't think MS is of such concern for a large portion of content. It has easier/better skill sources for DK, stamden, and stamplar. For the rest, chug a pot when the content calls for it.

It is likely not about stacking FG skills, either, as a bow/bow build probably does not have FDB as an ulti.

SodanTok · October 2018

Dont do it. Unless you literally have totally empty skill where nothing else fits. It will increase your weapon damage for those 3s you are on backbar and nothing more. Hail, Caltrops and Poison Injection recalculate their damage when you switch bar.

You should be getting Savagery from pots too, but if you dont it would again just increase your crit for 3s on the back. Also you mentioned Hail, Caltrops. You should have more skills on your back than those two ^^

Skullstachio · October 2018

Personally, I recommend putting re-arming trap in place of evil hunter and having the toothrow set for permanent Major Savagery, not just useful for bow backup hand, but for main hand also.

Re-arming trap in place of Evil Hunter is primarily not just to benefit from the 3% Weapon Damage boost via “Slayer Passive” but also as a good source of alternative damage to stack on top of your caltrops and endless hail. It also provides 7 seconds of minor force which increases your Critical Damage done by 10%(14 seconds since the trap rearms once after 1.5 seconds but given the time for an enemy to step on it, one can expect a small to average window between each proc of minor force from re-arming trap.), coupling well with toothrow and your abilities for even more dps.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Toothrow

John_Falstaff · October 2018

@SodanTok , you sure Poison Injection recalculates its damage? Hail and Caltrops yes, but I just made a quick and dirty test, and PI doesn't. And more skills on back bar isn't always good (more skills included in rotation, that is). Some sets will lose stacks if a lot of time is spent on back bar, plus the longer you spend on back bar, the more ground AoE ticks with lower stats you will have.

GreenhaloX · October 2018

For PvE, you don't need it. I only slot Evil Hunter for PvP when a NB becomes too menacing. Ha ha. Hey, if bow/bow works for you, then go with it, but can't really for me..

Armisael9 · October 2018

Thank y'all for the input, very helpful and insightful! Build details below to answer some questions:

The Horde of Reijux
1) Character: Stamsorc, Bosmer, Werewolf Pack Leader (I like pets, more below)
2) Sets: Maw of Infernal, Morkuldin, Briarheart (hence the need for high crit up time, adds some heals in WW mode). 5-1-1 armor.
3) Gear: all stam enchants, infused large armor, divine medium armor, Thief mundus, Dubious food, trash stampots (I'm too cheap/lazy to buy/ farm and craft weapon pots).
4) Front bow: Evil Hunter, Venom arrow for interrupt and dot, crushing weapon, bound armaments, Channeled Acceleration for group DPS/ Charging Manuever for Soloing quests, Vigor for group PVP, ULT Flawless Dawnbnreaker
5) Back bow: Razor Caltrops Hurricane, Endless Hail, Bombard (cc + mob killing), Critical Surge, ULT: WW Pack Leader

Armisael9 · October 2018

Summary (why I THINK I will like this build): Good (not great/not OP) ranged dps stamsorc pet build that has an interrupt and cc/trash mob killing mode for back bar option. Has good self heals.

When you get bored and want to switch it up you can go melee WW adding two more pets (4 total).

SodanTok · October 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

SodanTok , you sure Poison Injection recalculates its damage? Hail and Caltrops yes, but I just made a quick and dirty test, and PI doesn't. And more skills on back bar isn't always good (more skills included in rotation, that is). Some sets will lose stacks if a lot of time is spent on back bar, plus the longer you spend on back bar, the more ground AoE ticks with lower stats you will have.

@John_Falstaff PI was changed to recalculate damage on every tick before Clockwork City patch, not that it means ZoS didnt do secret change or caused bug

And in his case mentioned just caltrops and hail and he needs 1 more skill to use on backbar to be able to activate VMA bow

John_Falstaff · October 2018

@SodanTok , I can re-test again, but I don't see the change in damage of the ticks when I swap bars from PI. Could probably try to see how patch notes worded it, but might be a bug too, I wouldn't rule it out. As for skills, I suppose PI was implied, it's too powerful of a bow skill not to use; but even that leaves two more skill slots on back bar. I usually run Vigor and flex spot (where Hunter usually sits, but sometimes other things get swapped in, by situation - often something defensive, or active buff like Molten Armaments). But normal back bar rotation is just three skills.

SodanTok · October 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

SodanTok , I can re-test again, but I don't see the change in damage of the ticks when I swap bars from PI. Could probably try to see how patch notes worded it, but might be a bug too, I wouldn't rule it out. As for skills, I suppose PI was implied, it's too powerful of a bow skill not to use; but even that leaves two more skill slots on back bar. I usually run Vigor and flex spot (where Hunter usually sits, but sometimes other things get swapped in, by situation - often something defensive, or active buff like Molten Armaments). But normal back bar rotation is just three skills.

He specially mentioned bow/bow thats why I was wondering if he isnt using it on backbar (which he confirmed he isnt). In any case if they changed/bugged PI again in this case it is still pointless, since crit chance is always affecting each crit independently so swapping to lower/higher crit chance bar will take crit chance from there.

TheYKcid · October 2018

Sorry but there's lots of misinformation in this thread.

Crit % chance, as well as critical hit damage (CHD) modifier, BOTH update to your current bar. So keep Hunter (if you still plan to use it) on your frontbar. Trops and volley will still benefit from it despite being cast from the backbar.

The rules about single-target DoTs retaining stats from the impact bar, and ground-based DoTs updating stats every tick, apply to your max stam/mag and wep/spell damage stats ONLY.

Crit stats always update.

Penetration is always retained from impact.

Skullstachio · October 2018

@Armisael9

Just so you know, when murkmire launches on consoles, The Critical % from perfect strike and spell precision will be lowered from 12% to 9% to compensate for the buff changes made to minor Savagery/minor Prophecy.

(If you are on PC or you were playing on the PTS beforehand though, you may already know this.)