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Suggestion: Uppercut „Smart Targeting“
Rukzadlithau
✭✭✭✭
@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel
Technical issue about the ability explained here:
Change the functionality of Uppercut:
This would revitalize the ability and make it more user friendly.
Edited by Rukzadlithau on October 27, 2018 1:53PM Technical issue about the ability explained here:
In 4.2.5 single target cast time abilities such as: Uppercut, Snipe, Solar Flare etc. have an issue, that when the reticle is taken off the target the skills abort.
Previously this was not the case, the channel has not been stopped - once initiated - by takeing the reticle off the target. You had to break line of sight to cancel.
While in PvP this is a welcome change for abusively treated skills such as Snipe, it renders Uppercut virtually useless. Even for PvE it‘s too much of an interference to make the skills reliable or user friendly.
Previously this was not the case, the channel has not been stopped - once initiated - by takeing the reticle off the target. You had to break line of sight to cancel.
While in PvP this is a welcome change for abusively treated skills such as Snipe, it renders Uppercut virtually useless. Even for PvE it‘s too much of an interference to make the skills reliable or user friendly.
Change the functionality of Uppercut:
- Can be cast without target
- Has a conal hitbox of 7x5 meters
- Hits target closest to you
- Alternatively hits target aimed at with reticle
- Hitbox rotates according to reticle
- Skill should still remain single target, be block and dodgeable, and just the aim component should be a cone
This would revitalize the ability and make it more user friendly.
11
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Burtan✭✭✭✭Sounds good.
I would also suggest making the Wrecking Blow morph instant cast with a lower dmg tooltip to make it viable in PvE and open up some diversity in PvP.4 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭This is actually a really nice idea, even though implementing it might be difficult, something along those lines needs to happen. DS takes too much effort for so little reward.1 -
Maryal✭✭✭✭✭
✭So, you want 'smart targeting' added to melee weapon damage skills, or rather to 1 weapon skill only. If you are going to dummy down 1 melee weapon skill, why not dummy them all down (melee weapon skills)? And, while you're at it, why not include melee damage abilities as well? Fair is fair, you know.Edited by Maryal on October 25, 2018 2:01AM5 -
jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So, you want 'smart targeting' added to melee weapon damage skills, or rather to 1 weapon skill only. If you are going to dummy down 1 melee weapon skill, why not dummy them all down (melee weapon skills)? And, while you're at it, why not include melee damage abilities as well? Fair is fair, you know.
Because next to no other skills are as awkward and telegraphed as Uppercut. In PVE, the cast time kills the flow in your rotation, making it awkward to use. In PVP, the cast time makes it easily telegraphed, to the point where it is only effective against players who don't know what they're doing.
To throw more salt on the wound, Dizzying Swing is often the only hard stun accessible to players in PVP. If you've never played PVP before, hard stuns are vital. With Dizzying Swing having a cast time, being so easily telegraphed, often the only hard stun accessible to players is borderline useless.
Add lag on top of that, it is actually useless, which is why I don't bother using it, even on characters where 2H is my main weapon. I'll always go for an instant-cast stun, even if it costs magicka, because Dizzying Swing is actually impossible to land.7 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes please. ZOS you've got some work to do. This is a very reasonable suggestion for a skill that was already a pain to use in lag and against mobile targets.1 -
Rukzadlithau✭✭✭✭Donny_Vito wrote: »Wouldn't these changes make this skill OP compared to others?
No, the skill underperforms since quite some time now, and it‘s entierly about the disruptable aim. Not saying some couldn‘t make it work - but these players will still exceed with better performing abilities.
What‘s truly overpowered right now is how BLEEDS and ENCHANTS work on dual wield. As a stamina player seeking performance there‘s no alternative anymore. Using Uppercut for the fun of it is not even possible anymore as it‘s currently impossible to consistenly land it.
2 -
Well cast without a target is the fastest way to deal with the problem, but the dev will think another “cool” solution to make it “balanced”.0 -
Burtan✭✭✭✭
Dizzy Swing already required aiming and didn't work if you turned away or got too close to the target.Edited by Burtan on October 25, 2018 4:18PM0 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I do like the idea, sadly with the current way things seem to be it would make it a AoE ability, which requires slightly more calculations for the server. In short, more lag, which is already something we have a lot off. But then again maybe it won't be too bad since it's just for those abilities, would make it a bit more action combat oriented.0 -
Rukzadlithau✭✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »I do like the idea, sadly with the current way things seem to be it would make it a AoE ability, which requires slightly more calculations for the server. In short, more lag, which is already something we have a lot off. But then again maybe it won't be too bad since it's just for those abilities, would make it a bit more action combat oriented.
This aim mechanic already exists in a similar fashion for the Selene monster set. I don‘t think that‘s creating lag in particular. The hit must remain treated single target, only the hitbox should behave „aoe-ish“.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So, you want 'smart targeting' added to melee weapon damage skills, or rather to 1 weapon skill only. If you are going to dummy down 1 melee weapon skill, why not dummy them all down (melee weapon skills)? And, while you're at it, why not include melee damage abilities as well? Fair is fair, you know.
This really is insightful. Any issue with a skill targeting should be fixed properly rather than dumbing down combat, even if it is only dumbing it down for that one skill.
It opens up a can of worms that will either lead to dumbing down the entire game or 2H becoming the go to weapon for less skilled players. Either way it is a lose/lose situation.
Fix it right.1 -
Andele✭✭So, you want 'smart targeting' added to melee weapon damage skills, or rather to 1 weapon skill only. If you are going to dummy down 1 melee weapon skill, why not dummy them all down (melee weapon skills)? And, while you're at it, why not include melee damage abilities as well? Fair is fair, you know.
This really is insightful. Any issue with a skill targeting should be fixed properly rather than dumbing down combat, even if it is only dumbing it down for that one skill.
It opens up a can of worms that will either lead to dumbing down the entire game or 2H becoming the go to weapon for less skilled players. Either way it is a lose/lose situation.
Fix it right.
HOW IS HAVING TO AIM USING A AOE INDICATOR WHICH MEANS YOU CAN WIFF THE COST DUMBING DOWN COMPARED TO "cant cast unless target locked"? A single target skill wouldnt magically be aoe just because it has a hit zone and can be fully wiffed/you miss hitting with it.6 -
Kanar✭✭✭✭✭
✭So basically you want single target shalks.
Stupid idea. Try being more creative next time.2 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭So, you want 'smart targeting' added to melee weapon damage skills, or rather to 1 weapon skill only. If you are going to dummy down 1 melee weapon skill, why not dummy them all down (melee weapon skills)? And, while you're at it, why not include melee damage abilities as well? Fair is fair, you know.
This really is insightful. Any issue with a skill targeting should be fixed properly rather than dumbing down combat, even if it is only dumbing it down for that one skill.
It opens up a can of worms that will either lead to dumbing down the entire game or 2H becoming the go to weapon for less skilled players. Either way it is a lose/lose situation.
Fix it right.
noxious breath/brawler/dbos are already examples of cone melee abilities that work well(meaning that they still require careful aiming),
so lets stop acting like this is some gamebreaking concept. Its not. Only difference here is that we ask for a single target ability to aim like a cone. In the end it will still require careful aiming and will still be blockable/dodgeable.
Non cast timed abilities are already super easy to use(even though some magDks are braindead enough to complain that burning embers is hard to use, kek) so what would be the point of changing those?
As of right now you can be a dw build, weave dots with no aiming required and use ST , again no aiming or positioning required. Meanwhile a DS user has to take his position, his target's position, snares,roots, dodging,blocking, incoming CC , all of these into account.
And now it also requires you to maintain your aim on the target for the entire cast time which is pretty much impossible on a practical PvP scenario. So obviously, it needs to change or they need to revert the patch. The second one is unlikely, hence this post.
Edited by Ragnarock41 on October 25, 2018 6:27PM7 -
Kanar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »So, you want 'smart targeting' added to melee weapon damage skills, or rather to 1 weapon skill only. If you are going to dummy down 1 melee weapon skill, why not dummy them all down (melee weapon skills)? And, while you're at it, why not include melee damage abilities as well? Fair is fair, you know.
This really is insightful. Any issue with a skill targeting should be fixed properly rather than dumbing down combat, even if it is only dumbing it down for that one skill.
It opens up a can of worms that will either lead to dumbing down the entire game or 2H becoming the go to weapon for less skilled players. Either way it is a lose/lose situation.
Fix it right.
(noxious breath/brawler/dbos are already examples of cone melee abilities that work very well, so lets stop acting like this is some gamebreaking concept. Its not. Only difference here is that we ask for a single target ability to aim like a cone.
Non cast timed abilities are already super easy to use(even though some magDks are braindead enough to complain that burning embers is hard to use, kek) so what would be the point of changing those?
Riiiight, it's not game breaking! I personally can't wait till the new no-skill combo will be shalks-uppercut; if they're not dead I guess you can throw in some spins to finish.2 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »So, you want 'smart targeting' added to melee weapon damage skills, or rather to 1 weapon skill only. If you are going to dummy down 1 melee weapon skill, why not dummy them all down (melee weapon skills)? And, while you're at it, why not include melee damage abilities as well? Fair is fair, you know.
This really is insightful. Any issue with a skill targeting should be fixed properly rather than dumbing down combat, even if it is only dumbing it down for that one skill.
It opens up a can of worms that will either lead to dumbing down the entire game or 2H becoming the go to weapon for less skilled players. Either way it is a lose/lose situation.
Fix it right.
(noxious breath/brawler/dbos are already examples of cone melee abilities that work very well, so lets stop acting like this is some gamebreaking concept. Its not. Only difference here is that we ask for a single target ability to aim like a cone.
Non cast timed abilities are already super easy to use(even though some magDks are braindead enough to complain that burning embers is hard to use, kek) so what would be the point of changing those?
Riiiight, it's not game breaking! I personally can't wait till the new no-skill combo will be shalks-uppercut; if they're not dead I guess you can throw in some spins to finish.
Oh yeah, because obviously uppercut has the range of shalks, hits everyone in 20 meter range of you and has major fracture attached to it, right?
Can you even read? Do you even play this game? Do you even know what a cone means?
''hurr durr shalks'' oh my god this forum.....Edited by Ragnarock41 on October 25, 2018 6:34PM3 -
Kanar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »So, you want 'smart targeting' added to melee weapon damage skills, or rather to 1 weapon skill only. If you are going to dummy down 1 melee weapon skill, why not dummy them all down (melee weapon skills)? And, while you're at it, why not include melee damage abilities as well? Fair is fair, you know.
This really is insightful. Any issue with a skill targeting should be fixed properly rather than dumbing down combat, even if it is only dumbing it down for that one skill.
It opens up a can of worms that will either lead to dumbing down the entire game or 2H becoming the go to weapon for less skilled players. Either way it is a lose/lose situation.
Fix it right.
(noxious breath/brawler/dbos are already examples of cone melee abilities that work very well, so lets stop acting like this is some gamebreaking concept. Its not. Only difference here is that we ask for a single target ability to aim like a cone.
Non cast timed abilities are already super easy to use(even though some magDks are braindead enough to complain that burning embers is hard to use, kek) so what would be the point of changing those?
Riiiight, it's not game breaking! I personally can't wait till the new no-skill combo will be shalks-uppercut; if they're not dead I guess you can throw in some spins to finish.
Oh yeah, because obviously uppercut has the range of shalks, hits everyone in 20 meter range of you and has major fracture attached to it, right?
Can you even read? Do you even play this game? Do you even know what a cone means?
''hurr durr shalks'' oh my god this forum.....
Wow you're stupid, so I guess I need to explain it for you:
1. Hit shalks.
2. Hit uppercut (bonus points for blackrose weapon)
3. Approach Target and he dies as both go off at same time
4. If not dead after 3, then spin a few times
Bonus: no ulti needed!
Fing moron.3 -
Rukzadlithau✭✭✭✭@Kanar
Shalks are delayed unblock-/undodgeable burst with a large hitbox. Uppercut would be channeled block-/dodgeable burst with a small hitbox. Uppercut is the most avoidable combo Shalks allow, I‘m sorry you‘re not yet aware.
The change is meant to make the ability generally more accessible, not soley to Stamina Warden.Edited by Rukzadlithau on October 25, 2018 6:49PM1 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Donny_Vito wrote: »Wouldn't these changes make this skill OP compared to others?
Come now, this is the forums. You can't start using your head here. Are you seriously trying to imply that a suggestion on the forums would make something unbalanced? Really!?0 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »So, you want 'smart targeting' added to melee weapon damage skills, or rather to 1 weapon skill only. If you are going to dummy down 1 melee weapon skill, why not dummy them all down (melee weapon skills)? And, while you're at it, why not include melee damage abilities as well? Fair is fair, you know.
This really is insightful. Any issue with a skill targeting should be fixed properly rather than dumbing down combat, even if it is only dumbing it down for that one skill.
It opens up a can of worms that will either lead to dumbing down the entire game or 2H becoming the go to weapon for less skilled players. Either way it is a lose/lose situation.
Fix it right.
(noxious breath/brawler/dbos are already examples of cone melee abilities that work very well, so lets stop acting like this is some gamebreaking concept. Its not. Only difference here is that we ask for a single target ability to aim like a cone.
Non cast timed abilities are already super easy to use(even though some magDks are braindead enough to complain that burning embers is hard to use, kek) so what would be the point of changing those?
Riiiight, it's not game breaking! I personally can't wait till the new no-skill combo will be shalks-uppercut; if they're not dead I guess you can throw in some spins to finish.
Oh yeah, because obviously uppercut has the range of shalks, hits everyone in 20 meter range of you and has major fracture attached to it, right?
Can you even read? Do you even play this game? Do you even know what a cone means?
''hurr durr shalks'' oh my god this forum.....
Wow you're stupid, so I guess I need to explain it for you:
1. Hit shalks.
2. Hit uppercut (bonus points for blackrose weapon)
3. Approach Target and he dies as both go off at same time
4. If not dead after 3, then spin a few times
Bonus: no ulti needed!
Fing moron.
Okay, I'll try to break it down to you like this is elementary school or something. Don't you worry, I'm an expert gorilla trainer, and I'll make you into a PvP expert in no time.
todays lesson, why uppercut isn't shalks:
1. shalks is undodgeable, unblockable, requires no target to cast and has a reach of 20 meters, while the cone is much larger than any other. Can be combined and timed with other abilities. IS AN AOE.
2. uppercut is blockable,dodgeable, actually has a cast time which means you can't combine it with other skills. IS A SINGLE TARGET ABILITY.
3. There are already instant aoe cones in the game that aren't broken because their range is similar to that of uppercut and they have forms of counterplay. . You will never see people complain about brawler or the other morph of steel tornado, or inhale. because those abilities have smaller reach and have different ways of counterplay. Shalks does not have any counterplay. If you're in range, you get hit. Range determines how effective an aoe is going to be if counterplay is thrown out of window.. AND UPPERCUT ISNT AN AOE yet still obeys counterplay..
4. Shalks has nothing to do with uppercut. Shalks being broken is not the fault of uppercut. Uppercut has perfect counterplay in the form of both blocking, dodging, and also line of sight.
5. Look, I don't know how can I make this any easier for you, if you want a banana or something just say ''UHO'' okay?
Edited by Ragnarock41 on October 25, 2018 6:57PM3 -
Kanar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »So, you want 'smart targeting' added to melee weapon damage skills, or rather to 1 weapon skill only. If you are going to dummy down 1 melee weapon skill, why not dummy them all down (melee weapon skills)? And, while you're at it, why not include melee damage abilities as well? Fair is fair, you know.
This really is insightful. Any issue with a skill targeting should be fixed properly rather than dumbing down combat, even if it is only dumbing it down for that one skill.
It opens up a can of worms that will either lead to dumbing down the entire game or 2H becoming the go to weapon for less skilled players. Either way it is a lose/lose situation.
Fix it right.
(noxious breath/brawler/dbos are already examples of cone melee abilities that work very well, so lets stop acting like this is some gamebreaking concept. Its not. Only difference here is that we ask for a single target ability to aim like a cone.
Non cast timed abilities are already super easy to use(even though some magDks are braindead enough to complain that burning embers is hard to use, kek) so what would be the point of changing those?
Riiiight, it's not game breaking! I personally can't wait till the new no-skill combo will be shalks-uppercut; if they're not dead I guess you can throw in some spins to finish.
Oh yeah, because obviously uppercut has the range of shalks, hits everyone in 20 meter range of you and has major fracture attached to it, right?
Can you even read? Do you even play this game? Do you even know what a cone means?
''hurr durr shalks'' oh my god this forum.....
Wow you're stupid, so I guess I need to explain it for you:
1. Hit shalks.
2. Hit uppercut (bonus points for blackrose weapon)
3. Approach Target and he dies as both go off at same time
4. If not dead after 3, then spin a few times
Bonus: no ulti needed!
Fing moron.
Okay, I'll try to break it down to you like this is elementary school or something. Don't you worry, I'm an expert gorilla trainer, and I'll make you into a PvP expert in no time.
todays lesson, why uppercut isn't shalks:
1. shalks is undodgeable, unblockable, requires no target to cast and has a reach of 20 meters, while the cone is much larger than any other. Can be combined and timed with other abilities. IS AN AOE.
2. uppercut is blockable,dodgeable, actually has a cast time which means you can't combine it with other skills. IS A SINGLE TARGET ABILITY.
3. There are already instant aoe cones in the game that aren't broken because their range is similar to that of uppercut and they have forms of counterplay. . You will never see people complain about brawler or the other morph of steel tornado, or inhale. because those abilities have smaller reach and have different ways of counterplay. Shalks does not have any counterplay. If you're in range, you get hit. Range determines how effective an aoe is going to be if counterplay is thrown out of window.. AND UPPERCUT ISNT AN AOE yet still obeys counterplay..
4. Shalks has nothing to do with uppercut. Shalks being broken is not the fault of uppercut. Uppercut has perfect counterplay in the form of both blocking, dodging, and also line of sight.
5. Look, I don't know how can I make this any easier for you, if you want a banana or something just say ''UHO'' okay?
Why you have your panties in a bunch over aoes? The point is this would make two untargetted delayed burst hits that will land at the same time. Neither requires a target to cast and both are frontal facing that track with your character's direction.
If you can't see how this is a ridiculous proposal, then there's no hope for you.3 -
deLioncourt✭✭✭✭I think the best way to fix this problem with uppercut would be to make it so that all other abilities in the game also cancel if you're recticle moves off of a target.
This includes self-buffs and ground AoEs.
#balance
Edited by deLioncourt on October 25, 2018 7:03PM0 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭as long as this includes snipe and all bow abilities as well.
Because i prefer being able to directly target an enemy instead of being forced to hit multiple enemies that got in my line of sight.
to be more specific, would be:
i want a better targeting system that allows me to be more specific and consistent in whom i attack.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So, you want 'smart targeting' added to melee weapon damage skills, or rather to 1 weapon skill only. If you are going to dummy down 1 melee weapon skill, why not dummy them all down (melee weapon skills)? And, while you're at it, why not include melee damage abilities as well? Fair is fair, you know.
This really is insightful. Any issue with a skill targeting should be fixed properly rather than dumbing down combat, even if it is only dumbing it down for that one skill.
It opens up a can of worms that will either lead to dumbing down the entire game or 2H becoming the go to weapon for less skilled players. Either way it is a lose/lose situation.
Fix it right.
HOW IS HAVING TO AIM USING A AOE INDICATOR WHICH MEANS YOU CAN WIFF THE COST DUMBING DOWN COMPARED TO "cant cast unless target locked"? A single target skill wouldnt magically be aoe just because it has a hit zone and can be fully wiffed/you miss hitting with it.
So turn the single target skill into an AoE. Yea, makes sense. We can reduce the damage to go along with that.
Seriously though, OP suggests making it easier to target with a 2H sword than any weapon in the game and you ask how I can suggest that is not dumbing down the game. Okay.2 -
Rukzadlithau✭✭✭✭So turn the single target skill into an AoE. Yea, makes sense. We can reduce the damage to go along with that.
Seriously though, OP suggests making it easier to target with a 2H sword than any weapon in the game and you ask how I can suggest that is not dumbing down the game. Okay.
@idk
Nobody suggested to make this an AoE, you simply lack reading comprehension.
You also don‘t really understand the risk/reward of a channeled melee ability, right now these abilities take the most risk and offer the least reward. My suggestion is meant to turn the tide for one of these. But once again you simply complain for the sake of complaining.2
