6th social/PvE guild slot

South_of_Heaven · April 2014

I don't know where to post this, so let it be moved to it's most suitable place. (Sorry mods.)

In a few words, guilds become too impersonal, keep the current system but give us a 6th guild slot with no market (and if you feel like it, social/gameplay upgradable perks) so that a guild can be everything it was throughout of all these years of mmorpg history.

A guild is something sacred in the mmorpg. It is a team of people with a bond that share the same goals and interests (most of the time). It cannot truly be like that when people are compelled to have access to the largest part of the market they possibly can. Even PvP guilds have exclusively efficiency goals around trading and keep conquering.

The guild, as I knew it, is no more in ESO, which is a shame.
The current system is great - keep it, but I believe a social/PvE guild slot would be a good addition.

Elvikun · April 2014

Why not have the "true" guild on the first slot. Or second. Fifth maybe? I mean there is no rule saying "Thou shallt not enter a guild that isn't a glorified Auction House.".

I think I do understand your point, but it seems a bit needless to add a slot, you can have a social guild without it, right now. Just a matter of finding the right crowd, really.

Fenbrae · April 2014

So...what exactly is the difference between your idea and using your fifth guild slot to join a social progression guild?
I don't see why they should add something to the game if it can be done some other way.

South_of_Heaven · April 2014

Elvikun wrote: »

Why not have the "true" guild on the first slot. Or second. Fifth maybe? I mean there is no rule saying "Thou shallt not enter a guild that isn't a glorified Auction House.".

I think I do understand your point, but it seems a bit needless to add a slot, you can have a social guild without it, right now. Just a matter of finding the right crowd, really.

I could join the "true" (as you correctly called it) guild but, the game mechanics themselves compel you to maximize the number of people and focus on trading or conquering keeps for trading. It's definitely not the same.

And IF some folks (not many but a few people do make these guilds) decide to make a pure social/pve guild, everyone joining them will have to sacrifice the 1/5 of their market access. (Bold letters above mean that the current system severely reduces the number of people going for these kinds of guilds).

It is impractical and inefficient. It is similar to me complaining about wanting some more challenge in the game and you guys telling me to use 4 skills instead of 5/aka gimp myself to satisfy my desire.

It is definitely not the same.

Elvikun · April 2014

South_of_Heaven wrote: »

Elvikun wrote: »

Why not have the "true" guild on the first slot. Or second. Fifth maybe? I mean there is no rule saying "Thou shallt not enter a guild that isn't a glorified Auction House.".

I think I do understand your point, but it seems a bit needless to add a slot, you can have a social guild without it, right now. Just a matter of finding the right crowd, really.

I could join the "true" (as you correctly called it) guild but, the game mechanics themselves compel you to maximize the number of people and focus on trading or conquering keeps for trading. It's definitely not the same.

And IF some folks (not many but a few people do make these guilds) decide to make a pure social/pve guild, everyone joining them will have to sacrifice the 1/5 of their market access. (Bold letters above mean that the current system severely reduces the number of people going for these kinds of guilds).

It is impractical and inefficient. It is similar to me complaining about wanting some more challenge in the game and you guys telling me to use 4 skills instead of 5/aka gimp myself to satisfy my desire.

It is definitely not the same.

But do you really need 5 trading guilds? I mean, really?
You are comparing it to locking one of the 5 skillslots you have availible (thus very critical and needed to play the game properly) and I honestly do not get it, because in most situations, even just one or two seem pretty much all you need. If you want to be Ser Trade-a-lot, 4 should be enough, putting more than 1000 people in your reach. And a slot for "the" Guild is availiable still.
I may be missing something, but I really don't see the issue there.

South_of_Heaven · April 2014

Elvikun wrote: »

But do you really need 5 trading guilds? I mean, really?
You are comparing it to locking one of the 5 skillslots you have availible (thus very critical and needed to play the game properly) and I honestly do not get it, because in most situations, even just one or two seem pretty much all you need. If you want to be Ser Trade-a-lot, 4 should be enough, putting more than 1000 people in your reach. And a slot for "the" Guild is availiable still.
I may be missing something, but I really don't see the issue there.

Well I see many obvious issues with it.

Even if you put me aside and suppose that 4 guilds are more than enough to do all the trading I want, even if I have 4/5 of the trading list I could have, I believe this system erodes the whole community.

For starters anyone who would make or join a "true" guild is in the group of people who would sacrifice 1/5 of their trading list.
Most of those that do, still tend to act towards where the system pushes them to act, since it always benefits to invite more people etc.
The guild chats tend to be flooded with trade messages, even in a true guild. That's completely logical since the guilds acts like a market as well.

Yes, definitely not the same.

I don't know how you cannot see it, but I see that this system causes quite an issue in the social aspect of the game.

Elvikun · April 2014

South_of_Heaven wrote: »

Elvikun wrote: »

But do you really need 5 trading guilds? I mean, really?
You are comparing it to locking one of the 5 skillslots you have availible (thus very critical and needed to play the game properly) and I honestly do not get it, because in most situations, even just one or two seem pretty much all you need. If you want to be Ser Trade-a-lot, 4 should be enough, putting more than 1000 people in your reach. And a slot for "the" Guild is availiable still.
I may be missing something, but I really don't see the issue there.

Well I see many obvious issues with it.

Even if you put me aside and suppose that 4 guilds are more than enough to do all the trading I want, even if I have 4/5 of the trading list I could have, I believe this system erodes the whole community.

For starters anyone who would make or join a "true" guild is in the group of people who would sacrifice 1/5 of their trading list.
Most of those that do, still tend to act towards where the system pushes them to act, since it always benefits to invite more people etc.
The guild chats tend to be flooded with trade messages, even in a true guild. That's completely logical since the guilds acts like a market as well.

Yes, definitely not the same.

I don't know how you cannot see it, but I see that this system causes quite an issue in the social aspect of the game.

I don't know, maybe you have a more of a minmaxing mindset where I don't. I say "1200 people to trade with is good enough.", where you say "But you could have 1400!".

I think you shouldn't look at the guilds as "Auction house 1-5", but more of a, well, guilds. If the 6th slot was added, you could just say "Hey, but the 6th slot could!ve been trading guild, instead of -sacrificing- it to have fun with a guild.".

Frankly, I don't think it's going to happen and I don't think many people have an issue with the system either. There are issues with guilds, but not the amount of them you can have I'd say.

Nox_Aeterna · April 2014

I look for 1 guild i can consider the main and 4 AH guilds that i could not care less about.

Just make sure your AH guilds got around 400/500 players , eventually it should sell something useful.

South_of_Heaven · April 2014

Elvikun wrote: »

I don't know, maybe you have a more of a minmaxing mindset where I don't. I say "1200 people to trade with is good enough.", where you say "But you could have 1400!".

I think you shouldn't look at the guilds as "Auction house 1-5", but more of a, well, guilds. If the 6th slot was added, you could just say "Hey, but the 6th slot could!ve been trading guild, instead of -sacrificing- it to have fun with a guild.".

Frankly, I don't think it's going to happen and I don't think many people have an issue with the system either. There are issues with guilds, but not the amount of them you can have I'd say.

Just for the record, I don't know when people started using the word "min-maxing". Do we now use "min-maxing" in every aspect of the game?
Will people at some point use "min-maxing" for someone who wants to explore everything for example too?
Does "min-maxing" equal to refusing to gimp yourself? Personally, I refuse to gimp myself by principle - not desire "to min-max".

Elvikun · April 2014

South_of_Heaven wrote: »

Elvikun wrote: »

I don't know, maybe you have a more of a minmaxing mindset where I don't. I say "1200 people to trade with is good enough.", where you say "But you could have 1400!".

I think you shouldn't look at the guilds as "Auction house 1-5", but more of a, well, guilds. If the 6th slot was added, you could just say "Hey, but the 6th slot could!ve been trading guild, instead of -sacrificing- it to have fun with a guild.".

Frankly, I don't think it's going to happen and I don't think many people have an issue with the system either. There are issues with guilds, but not the amount of them you can have I'd say.

Just for the record, I don't know when people started using the word "min-maxing". Do we now use "min-maxing" in every aspect of the game?
Will people at some point use "min-maxing" for someone who wants to explore everything for example too?
Does "min-maxing" equal to refusing to gimp yourself? Personally, I refuse to gimp myself by principle - not desire "to min-max".

Don't be defensive, I don't mean it as a derogatory term in any way, simply a word to use when someone seems to be focusing on getting the largest possible benefits and efficiency in game, possibly even at the cost of fun, usually connected to numbers. Nothing worng with it either, if that's what one likes.

You are saying 2000 trading partners is not enough and the fact (assuming you get a social guild too) that you cannot get 2500 is absolutely crippling your experience with the game. I see that as minmaxing, yes.

At the end of the day, you can have a band of friends and four slots to build trading network. Or you can have slightly larger trading network. Comes down to your likes and what you prefer - but neither option, not even using only one or two slots for trading cpipples or as you say "gimps" you.

Edit: You see, the problem here, you seem to start from the point where you see it as "5 slots for trading, have to scarfice one to have a guild", but the truth of the matter is that it's 5 guilds slots and you can use them for trading, socialisation, storage... You are using guild slots, not gimping yourself by not using trade slots.

South_of_Heaven · April 2014

Well then you just have to accept that not everyone "doesn't mind" like you and I can accept that "you don't mind" as well. You could have said so from the start.
I prefer to have 2500 trading partners to 2000. 500 trading partners are 1/5 better than 2000.

I never used the words "absolutely cripples me", but it's still gimping because I have 1/5 less trading partners. I am sure it's not so hard to understand my viewpoint.

As for min-maxing I never said it was derogatory. I only said that, nowadays, a lot of people use it for pretty much everything and forget or don't know what it actually means.

Plus these are not the only points I've made. It's not only about a player "gimping himself" with less trading partners.It's about the guilds themselves, more importantly. Their nature erodes what a true guild stands for, its focus and social/pve aspects as I explained earlier.
If you disagree with that too and don't mind it, then good for you. I have gotten used to the delightful experience called "guild" in various mmorpgs I've played throughout the years and this exact thing does not exist in ESO.

Blackhorne · April 2014

South_of_Heaven wrote: »

Well then you just have to accept that not everyone "doesn't mind" like you and I can accept that "you don't mind" as well. You could have said so from the start.
I prefer to have 2500 trading partners to 2000. 500 trading partners are 1/5 better than 2000.

Then that's your choice. In case you haven't noticed yet, the primary differentiator* for the entire Elder Scrolls series of games is that you have to make choices which have consequences. You'll see this reflected in all sorts of ways, like with the limit of 5 guild slots, the intentionally tight inventory and bank sizes, even down to quests which give different rewards based on how you choose to complete them.

Having to choose between two very close options makes your decision more important, and thus more rewarding. That's a core philosophy of this game.

* Aside from the lore, the graphics, music, races, etc.

Elvikun · April 2014

South_of_Heaven wrote: »

Well then you just have to accept that not everyone "doesn't mind" like you and I can accept that "you don't mind" as well. You could have said so from the start.
I prefer to have 2500 trading partners to 2000. 500 trading partners are 1/5 better than 2000.

I never used the words "absolutely cripples me", but it's still gimping because I have 1/5 less trading partners. I am sure it's not so hard to understand my viewpoint.

As for min-maxing I never said it was derogatory. I only said that, nowadays, a lot of people use it for pretty much everything and forget or don't know what it actually means.

Plus these are not the only points I've made. It's not only about a player "gimping himself" with less trading partners.It's about the guilds themselves, more importantly. Their nature erodes what a true guild stands for, its focus and social/pve aspects as I explained earlier.
If you disagree with that too and don't mind it, then good for you. I have gotten used to the delightful experience called "guild" in various mmorpgs I've played throughout the years and this exact thing does not exist in ESO.

I was really just explaining what I mean by minmaxer, since you seemed a little offended when I called you that. I hope I cleared it a bit. It's definitely simpler to say that than explaining the efficiency bit all the time. It's a valid and popular way to play games, especially MMOs.

I just have to repeat that the delightful guild experience is diminished only if you decide to diminish it. You were given the choice to have 5 guilds to maximise your guild experience, whether you do that or just turn it into loner club auction house is absolutely up to you. If you go for 5 pure trading guild to get a little extra chance of selling your stuff, then the "true" guild experience is lost to you and it would be your choice. All your points you made can be avoided by not starting with the thought "I have 5 auction house spots".
Sidenote: What I was trying to point out before was that you seem to have the preconception that you have 5 trading spots to begin with and have to sacrifice some to get a real guild. That is not the case, as above, you have 5 -guild- spots and just have to pick what and how you want to do it.

And while you didn't say it is crippling, you did say it is like locking skillslot - which is crippling.

*shrug*
I think I really explained it enough by now. You might just as well think about it, because it is very unlikely you'll be getting "Ultimate" spot to your auction house skillbar.
Just to clarify, I don't even really disagree with you in principle, I'm just a bit thrown off by you making it sound like it's the game's fault, as if it doesn't allow you to have a fun guild, which is simply not the case.

South_of_Heaven · April 2014

Elvikun wrote: »

I was really just explaining what I mean by minmaxer, since you seemed a little offended when I called you that. I hope I cleared it a bit. It's definitely simpler to say that than explaining the efficiency bit all the time. It's a valid and popular way to play games, especially MMOs.

I just have to repeat that the delightful guild experience is diminished only if you decide to diminish it. You were given the choice to have 5 guilds to maximise your guild experience, whether you do that or just turn it into loner club auction house is absolutely up to you. If you go for 5 pure trading guild to get a little extra chance of selling your stuff, then the "true" guild experience is lost to you and it would be your choice. All your points you made can be avoided by not starting with the thought "I have 5 auction house spots".
Sidenote: What I was trying to point out before was that you seem to have the preconception that you have 5 trading spots to begin with and have to sacrifice some to get a real guild. That is not the case, as above, you have 5 -guild- spots and just have to pick what and how you want to do it.

And while you didn't say it is crippling, you did say it is like locking skillslot - which is crippling.

*shrug*
I think I really explained it enough by now. You might just as well think about it, because it is very unlikely you'll be getting "Ultimate" spot to your auction house skillbar.
Just to clarify, I don't even really disagree with you in principle, I'm just a bit thrown off by you making it sound like it's the game's fault, as if it doesn't allow you to have a fun guild, which is simply not the case.

Are you really still trying to convince me to change my viewpoint and say my preconception is a misconception? Can't you understand that I just see it this way? I am getting tired of repeating the same things - "I prefer to have 2500 trading partners to 2000. 500 trading partners are 1/5 better than 2000." I have to make this sacrifice, no matter how elegantly you put it - it may not be a sacrifice to you, because you do not mind, but it is to me.

Plus you still keep ignoring the most important point of this thread! Repeating myself again:
For starters anyone who would make or join a "true" guild is only in the group of people who would be willing to sacrifice 1/5 of their trading list.
Most of those that do, still tend to act towards where the system pushes them to act, since it always benefits to invite more people etc.
The guild chats tend to be flooded with trade messages, even in a true guild. That's completely logical since the guilds acts like a market as well.

"Seemed a little offended" etc - I do not care about bickering mate. So if you
"don't even really disagree with me in principle, but you are just a bit thrown off by me making it sound like it's the game's fault" as you said, then you should not even be posting here - no offense. Because if "me making it sound like it's the game's fault" is a reason for you to post here while you don't really disagree, while this is completely subjective, is nothing more than bickering.

You don't mind having 500 less trading partners, I do. Get it?

Blackhorne wrote: »

South_of_Heaven wrote: »

Well then you just have to accept that not everyone "doesn't mind" like you and I can accept that "you don't mind" as well. You could have said so from the start.
I prefer to have 2500 trading partners to 2000. 500 trading partners are 1/5 better than 2000.

Then that's your choice. In case you haven't noticed yet, the primary differentiator* for the entire Elder Scrolls series of games is that you have to make choices which have consequences. You'll see this reflected in all sorts of ways, like with the limit of 5 guild slots, the intentionally tight inventory and bank sizes, even down to quests which give different rewards based on how you choose to complete them.

Having to choose between two very close options makes your decision more important, and thus more rewarding. That's a core philosophy of this game.

* Aside from the lore, the graphics, music, races, etc.

You too ignore the fact that the social guilds themselves, are not the same because the game's mechanics push them towards something else.

As for the things you said about this being a choice - I find it simply laughable.
Reminds of arguments like
"play with one hand tied behind your back if you think the game is too easy" or
"don't level your skills if you want challenge" etc.
Why? Because I consider this, as I have said, gimping yourself to experience a great social aspect. So no, gimping myself to socialize and experience something given, is not a delightful choice with any consequence as you want to make it seem to be. It is not a gameplay element like the quest choices or the limitations that make you think or decide something, it is bad design.

Melian · April 2014

So... four trade guilds aren't enough for you?

*smh*

South_of_Heaven · April 2014

Melian wrote: »

So... four trade guilds aren't enough for you?

*smh*

The only thing people pick up from the OP is that? Really? This is the least important of things, as I keep saying in all my posts.

I am still waiting for someone who will address the actual point of the OP. Or is it too hard to understand?

Elvikun · April 2014

South_of_Heaven wrote: »

Elvikun wrote: »

I was really just explaining what I mean by minmaxer, since you seemed a little offended when I called you that. I hope I cleared it a bit. It's definitely simpler to say that than explaining the efficiency bit all the time. It's a valid and popular way to play games, especially MMOs.

I just have to repeat that the delightful guild experience is diminished only if you decide to diminish it. You were given the choice to have 5 guilds to maximise your guild experience, whether you do that or just turn it into loner club auction house is absolutely up to you. If you go for 5 pure trading guild to get a little extra chance of selling your stuff, then the "true" guild experience is lost to you and it would be your choice. All your points you made can be avoided by not starting with the thought "I have 5 auction house spots".
Sidenote: What I was trying to point out before was that you seem to have the preconception that you have 5 trading spots to begin with and have to sacrifice some to get a real guild. That is not the case, as above, you have 5 -guild- spots and just have to pick what and how you want to do it.

And while you didn't say it is crippling, you did say it is like locking skillslot - which is crippling.

*shrug*
I think I really explained it enough by now. You might just as well think about it, because it is very unlikely you'll be getting "Ultimate" spot to your auction house skillbar.
Just to clarify, I don't even really disagree with you in principle, I'm just a bit thrown off by you making it sound like it's the game's fault, as if it doesn't allow you to have a fun guild, which is simply not the case.

Are you really still trying to convince me to change my viewpoint and say my preconception is a misconception? Can't you understand that I just see it this way? I am getting tired of repeating the same things - "I prefer to have 2500 trading partners to 2000. 500 trading partners are 1/5 better than 2000." I have to make this sacrifice, no matter how elegantly you put it - it may not be a sacrifice to you, because you do not mind, but it is to me.

Plus you still keep ignoring the most important point of this thread! Repeating myself again:
For starters anyone who would make or join a "true" guild is only in the group of people who would be willing to sacrifice 1/5 of their trading list.
Most of those that do, still tend to act towards where the system pushes them to act, since it always benefits to invite more people etc.
The guild chats tend to be flooded with trade messages, even in a true guild. That's completely logical since the guilds acts like a market as well.

"Seemed a little offended" etc - I do not care about bickering mate. So if you
"don't even really disagree with me in principle, but you are just a bit thrown off by me making it sound like it's the game's fault" as you said, then you should not even be posting here - no offense. Because if "me making it sound like it's the game's fault" is a reason for you to post here while you don't really disagree, while this is completely subjective, is nothing more than bickering.

You don't mind having 500 less trading partners, I do. Get it?

I have a "true" guild and have noone selling stuff, noone minding we have no market and no plans on expanding. And better yet, we didn't come into the game together, just 30 people who randomly snowballed together and now have good fun. It works. Don't just assume it doesn't.

And I care not if you'll change your viewpoint, I'm telling you your viewpoint is the problem you have and makes you less-than-pleased with the system, not the game's guild system itself.

"You don't mind having 500 less trading partners, I do. Get it?"
I do get it. And that is your choice, not something the game made you do. See, we finally got there. You reap what you sow, so to speak. Sucky guilds with no community? Well maybe you chose badly. Do you get it?

Melian · April 2014

South_of_Heaven wrote: »

Melian wrote: »

So... four trade guilds aren't enough for you?

*smh*

The only thing people pick up from the OP is that? Really? This is the least important of things, as I keep saying in all my posts.

I am still waiting for someone who will address the actual point of the OP. Or is it too hard to understand?

Actually, I pick that up from your other posts where you refer to choosing a social guild as a "sacrifice".

Blackhorne · April 2014

Okay, you keep saying you want to go back to the point of the OP, so let's do that

South_of_Heaven wrote: »

In a few words, guilds become too impersonal

This is your conclusion, based on your reasoning below. I don't agree with this conclusion, because I don't agree with the reasoning which leads you to it. So let's discuss this reasoning.

A guild is something sacred in the mmorpg. It is a team of people with a bond that share the same goals and interests (most of the time).

I agree entirely with this statement.

It cannot truly be like that when people are compelled to have access to the largest part of the market they possibly can.

This is the first part of your reasoning that I disagree with. In order for guilds to be ruined, people have to make a conscious choice of market over socialization. More importantly, in order for them to be ruined completely, all people (not just some) have to make that choice, and they have to make it five times (one for each guild they choose to belong to.) Some people may feel compelled to build as big a trading market as they can, but that's their choice, and in no way compels others to do the same. As I said before, it's about having choices that are meaningful because they cost you something. Creating a guild slot limited to social only removes some of the prioritization that you have to make in choosing the guilds to belong to, and thus makes the choices less meaningful. This demeans the purpose of guilds, far more than allowing people to choose market guilds over social guilds, or vice versa.

Even PvP guilds have exclusively efficiency goals around trading and keep conquering.

No they don't. Some PvP guilds may have chosen to focus on trading and keeps, to the detriment of PvP campaigns and socialization, but that's for the guild to decide, and falls perfectly well under the description of "share the same goals and interests (most of the time)." I know of several PvP guilds that do not have this focus you describe. If you look, you can find some too.

The guild, as I knew it, is no more in ESO, which is a shame.

The guild as you describe it above is alive and well in ESO. I get that the guilds you've looked into haven't met your goals, but that doesn't mean that such a guild does not exist. I know. I belong to a primarily social guild, with less than 500 members, which exists purely for the members to pursue their common interests.

Such guilds do exist, and indeed can thrive in ESO partly because there is no requirement for the guilds to fit one particular mold.

That's what I got from your original post. If you have additional arguments or clarifications you'd like to make, please do so.

Jessabella · April 2014

I guess I am doing it wrong then! Because I'm not in guilds for trading at all, All my guilds have huge overlaps of the same members and all are social, I mean even in some of the stores people sell stuff for 3g instead of sticking it into an already overflowing bank.

I think its all a matter of preference, and with 5 guilds you can still have a social only guild if you want. Being in nothing but social guilds has its down side, Chat can get hard to keep up with, but the overlap of people in the same guilds helps.

I think its a bit of a shock at first, it was to me, the guild system being so different, but now I love it! I think it does help to make the game feel much more intimate and social, but that's because I choose my guilds based on that. Had I picked market only guilds then the game feeling would have leaned more towards that way.

But even with 5 guilds I find myself wishing I can be in more just because everyone is so friendly! So I can totally see the point of a 6th guild!