Marshall1289 wrote: »Don't play the class, but here we go.
+ Bear can't be killed in group dungeons meaning those high single target parses not possible are now applicable.
+ Not using the bear isn't a huge loss, you get more % dmg done via other companion abilities.
- 30% less bear dmg potentially offset by previous 2 points.
+ Screaming cliff racer calculates its extra dmg gradually instead of at a min range.
+ More sustain from betty.
-/+ Less sustain because of swarm cost increase, more sustain because of scorch cost reduction
-/+ Can't carry buff to back bar/ Don't need to cast bird of prey.
+ Can heal bear from green balance skill.
+ Only class to offer minor toughness, longer duration, can overheal.
- Major expedition reduced across ALL classes.
Just my opinion, how are they worse?
Edit: Added some other points found.
Marshall1289 wrote: »Don't play the class, but here we go.
+ Bear can't be killed in group dungeons meaning those high single target parses not possible are now applicable.
+ Not using the bear isn't a huge loss, you get more % dmg done via other companion abilities.
- 30% less bear dmg potentially offset by previous 2 points.
+ Screaming cliff racer calculates its extra dmg gradually instead of at a min range.
+ More sustain from betty.
-/+ Less sustain because of swarm cost increase, more sustain because of scorch cost reduction
-/+ Can't carry buff to back bar/ Don't need to cast bird of prey.
+ Can heal bear from green balance skill.
+ Only class to offer minor toughness, longer duration, can overheal.
- Major expedition reduced across ALL classes.
Just my opinion, how are they worse?
Edit: Added some other points found.
Yeah lets just ignore everything about whats really being changed lmao
30% Damage to the bear who must be BOTH bar slotted is absolutely ridiculous. Ever stop to think that nobody ever slotted the bear for the 2% passive bonus for damage?
Arctic blast? Completely taken away, another form of frost damage, gone.
Bird of prey changes
Cliff racer is still too clunky and that change isnt exactly a positive or negative one imo.
Class still has only 4 viable DPS options for PVP
The swarm nerf effects MAGDENS, the scorch buff helps both stamdens and magdens making the gap between the wider.
There is a tonne of work needed for magicka wardens DPS wise, no idea why youre acting like everything is all good, almost as if you dont play the class yourself
ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Marshall1289 wrote: »Don't play the class, but here we go.
+ Bear can't be killed in group dungeons meaning those high single target parses not possible are now applicable.
+ Not using the bear isn't a huge loss, you get more % dmg done via other companion abilities.
- 30% less bear dmg potentially offset by previous 2 points.
+ Screaming cliff racer calculates its extra dmg gradually instead of at a min range.
+ More sustain from betty.
-/+ Less sustain because of swarm cost increase, more sustain because of scorch cost reduction
-/+ Can't carry buff to back bar/ Don't need to cast bird of prey.
+ Can heal bear from green balance skill.
+ Only class to offer minor toughness, longer duration, can overheal.
- Major expedition reduced across ALL classes.
Just my opinion, how are they worse?
Edit: Added some other points found.
Yeah lets just ignore everything about whats really being changed lmao
30% Damage to the bear who must be BOTH bar slotted is absolutely ridiculous. Ever stop to think that nobody ever slotted the bear for the 2% passive bonus for damage?
Arctic blast? Completely taken away, another form of frost damage, gone.
Bird of prey changes
Cliff racer is still too clunky and that change isnt exactly a positive or negative one imo.
Class still has only 4 viable DPS options for PVP
The swarm nerf effects MAGDENS, the scorch buff helps both stamdens and magdens making the gap between the wider.
There is a tonne of work needed for magicka wardens DPS wise, no idea why youre acting like everything is all good, almost as if you dont play the class yourself
They said they dont play the class.
Marshall1289 wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Marshall1289 wrote: »Don't play the class, but here we go.
+ Bear can't be killed in group dungeons meaning those high single target parses not possible are now applicable.
+ Not using the bear isn't a huge loss, you get more % dmg done via other companion abilities.
- 30% less bear dmg potentially offset by previous 2 points.
+ Screaming cliff racer calculates its extra dmg gradually instead of at a min range.
+ More sustain from betty.
-/+ Less sustain because of swarm cost increase, more sustain because of scorch cost reduction
-/+ Can't carry buff to back bar/ Don't need to cast bird of prey.
+ Can heal bear from green balance skill.
+ Only class to offer minor toughness, longer duration, can overheal.
- Major expedition reduced across ALL classes.
Just my opinion, how are they worse?
Edit: Added some other points found.
Yeah lets just ignore everything about whats really being changed lmao
30% Damage to the bear who must be BOTH bar slotted is absolutely ridiculous. Ever stop to think that nobody ever slotted the bear for the 2% passive bonus for damage?
Arctic blast? Completely taken away, another form of frost damage, gone.
Bird of prey changes
Cliff racer is still too clunky and that change isnt exactly a positive or negative one imo.
Class still has only 4 viable DPS options for PVP
The swarm nerf effects MAGDENS, the scorch buff helps both stamdens and magdens making the gap between the wider.
There is a tonne of work needed for magicka wardens DPS wise, no idea why youre acting like everything is all good, almost as if you dont play the class yourself
They said they dont play the class.
I don't, just trying to understand where the nerfs are when it seems some things were improved. @ESO_Nightingale comment put things in to perspective. That arctic blast change is pretty laughable. The ability seems so poorly thought out and uninspiring.
From a PvP perspective this patch is a primarily a nerf. We gained a little bit of sustain, however the class still lacks any actual skill combos to use, a viable CC, and an execute.
ZoS effectively heard people saying "magden has no CC", so they slapped a CC on to a random skill that would be useless for any competetive PvPer, and called it a day.
Magden's typically run 2-3 Animal Companion skills on their primary bar, so with passive changes that amounts to a 2-3% damage increase, which is very slight but always welcome.
Netch gives more magicka back now, which also is welcome, but is only a small boost to sustain. I'd have to say that in its PTS state, bird of prey giving passive minor berserk will require it to be front barred (which was already a better choice anyway), but also remove any need to cast the skill in the first place, so that's also a sustain boost imo.
The nerf to ALL major expedition sources was the main killer though, which changed this patch from a slight buff to a significant nerf. All other skill sources of major expedition were only slight nerfs relatively speaking, as the classes they applied to have other sources of mobility, and major expedition came as a brief addition to those. In general I think the duration of all major expedition sources should be closer to 7-8s, not 4, but the point remains that what bird of prey gives you for 3k magicka (after light armour passives) is genuinely funny. Next patch you will literally be paying 3k mag for 750 stam (20% of my stam recov is 150) and 4s of major expedition. When you take the fact that 4s of major expedition will only be used now as a reactionary cast instead of a constant mobility buff, and take in to account the likelihood of snares/roots, it's literally useless.
Assuming the 4s rule is staying for major expedition, the only fix I can think of that will fix this is giving snare immunity for that 4s duration too. It fits the skill description, you are invoking the spirit of agility... unless you are snared or rooted, then you are still a snail
If you never played Warden ever then it is a buff.
Nerftheforums wrote: »The true question that you should ask yourself is: "why do I consider magden a class of the deb's interest?"
Wardens were made to have stamden in the game, magden is just a collateral effect of the fact that they needed to implement a magicka version of the class.
Is just what stamsorc is for magsorc, but worse.
Beautiful post. And the fact that it has 11 Agrees is a pleasant surprise.From a PvP perspective this patch is a primarily a nerf. We gained a little bit of sustain, however the class still lacks any actual skill combos to use, a viable CC, and an execute.
ZoS effectively heard people saying "magden has no CC", so they slapped a CC on to a random skill that would be useless for any competetive PvPer, and called it a day.
Magden's typically run 2-3 Animal Companion skills on their primary bar, so with passive changes that amounts to a 2-3% damage increase, which is very slight but always welcome.
Netch gives more magicka back now, which also is welcome, but is only a small boost to sustain. I'd have to say that in its PTS state, bird of prey giving passive minor berserk will require it to be front barred (which was already a better choice anyway), but also remove any need to cast the skill in the first place, so that's also a sustain boost imo.
The nerf to ALL major expedition sources was the main killer though, which changed this patch from a slight buff to a significant nerf. All other skill sources of major expedition were only slight nerfs relatively speaking, as the classes they applied to have other sources of mobility, and major expedition came as a brief addition to those. In general I think the duration of all major expedition sources should be closer to 7-8s, not 4, but the point remains that what bird of prey gives you for 3k magicka (after light armour passives) is genuinely funny. Next patch you will literally be paying 3k mag for 750 stam (20% of my stam recov is 150) and 4s of major expedition. When you take the fact that 4s of major expedition will only be used now as a reactionary cast instead of a constant mobility buff, and take in to account the likelihood of snares/roots, it's literally useless.
Assuming the 4s rule is staying for major expedition, the only fix I can think of that will fix this is giving snare immunity for that 4s duration too. It fits the skill description, you are invoking the spirit of agility... unless you are snared or rooted, then you are still a snail
Well... It seems zos has officially driven the Magden community insane with nerfs... As of Murkmire the three subclasses of Warden will be Stamden, Healthden, and Wrathden... hopefully PvP class balance and offensive ice magic will actually be on the radar next patch
agasaagasai wrote: »When the class reps pointed out that an Ice Mage play style was highly desired and ZOS acknowledged this, I was in so much hope.
But instead of making Cryomancer a dps reality, they are making it a COSMETIC reality.
With the upcoming Crystalfrost skin, Iceheart arms pack and Enchanted Snowglobe House, we can at least look like an ice mage... And most Crown Crates seasons have their Frost Atronach-inspired mount as one of the Radiant Apex awards, which I spent so much crowns on not getting.
On the bright side, apparently it is understood by ZOS that frosty things are cool enough and desirable enough to be one of the radiant apexes. Let's hope when winter comes and we have all these cosmetics to adorn our dreams, something practical gameplay-wise will be implemented...
Greetings, we've removed several inappropriate and bashing comments. This is a reminder that posts need to remain constructive and civil.
Maura_Neysa wrote: »~~snip~~
To explain the situation to anyone at zos who is confused by the current outrage of the Magden community... Magden was exposed as an incomplete class when screaming cliff racer was balanced and it became a joke in the PvP community when the stun was removed from fissure, fetcher infection became reflectable and screaming cliff racer was sped up as a "buff to its reliablity" which caused its damage to no longer line up with that of deep fissure for burst combos... These things and the general state of Magden PvP was brought up in the forums and by the class reps several times and yet you guys continued to nerf Magden basically every single patch even though it is wildly recognized by the PvP community as the worst subclass in the game in need of serious buffs... The Murkmire Magden buffs such as the Deep Fissure ~800 cost decrease, Blue Betty ~1k mag restore increase, and the Advanced Species 1% Passive damage increase don't even come close to cancelling out the Murkmire Magden nerfs such as the Eternal Guardian 30% damage nerf, Fetcher Infection 30% cost increase, Bird of Prey front bar berserk restriction and 60% speed duration decrease upon activation... While us Magden mains had really high hopes for gaining some more offensive capabilities and class definition in Murkmire to balance our beloved characters with the other classes we ended up with a patch that hurt Magdens viability and class definition badly...
The two ultimate pain points of the Magden community are the weakness of the ice element from a dps perspective and the general dyssynergy of Magden's offensive toolkit...
First, the cryomancy aspect of the practically dead Magden subclass which makes up a significant amount of its class identity apart from the very popular Stamden subclass is extraordinarily weak because the abilities and passives of the winters embrace tree have been tailored to function ONLY for warden tanks instead of for both warden mages and warden tanks... The result of the "ice is for tanks only" concept has left Magden with only 4 viable offensive abilities while the other classes have significantly more firepower and offensive diversity. Magdk has 12 viable offensive abilities, Magplar has 10, Magsorc has 9, and Magblade has 9... Because of this imbalance, the Magden community would very much appreciate if the people at ZOS could at reconsider their view on ice tanking and add some real offensive power to the winters embrace tree.
Some ideas for the winters embrace tree that are very popular amonst Magden mains are a good ice dot on the new arctic blast, a complete rework of the crystalized slab morph of crystalized shield into an offensive morph with a proc condition to give Ice magdens a class defining skills (something like "shimmering swords" would give offensive ice mages some identity sort of how power lash, crystal frags, assassins will gives identity to Magdks, Magsorcs, and Magblades), a rework of the Frozen Retreat morph of Frozen gate so that it keeps its ally pull/enemy root, gains additional damage, and losses its enemy pull
Second, the abilities in Magdens offensive toolkit just dont work well together... This is a threefold problem... First, while Magden was seemingly designed to be a kitting or ranged controlling type class as shown by that the secondary condition of their main spammable screaming cliff racer is that the ability does more damage the further you are from your target and that their main burst skill deep fissure is aimed and delayed, Magden just doesn't have the mobility (good expedition uptime and snare/root immunity) or crowd control capabilities (viable ranged cc/snares/roots) to build distance or control opponents. Second, as previously mentioned, the change to screaming cliff racers projectile speed increase ruined the synergy that this skill had with deep fissure. Third, the cost increase to fletcher infection has made the double cast mechanic of this skill very undesirable.
Mojomonkeyman wrote: »To explain the situation to anyone at zos who is confused by the current outrage of the Magden community... Magden was exposed as an incomplete class when screaming cliff racer was balanced and it became a joke in the PvP community when the stun was removed from fissure, fetcher infection became reflectable and screaming cliff racer was sped up as a "buff to its reliablity" which caused its damage to no longer line up with that of deep fissure for burst combos... These things and the general state of Magden PvP was brought up in the forums and by the class reps several times and yet you guys continued to nerf Magden basically every single patch even though it is wildly recognized by the PvP community as the worst subclass in the game in need of serious buffs... The Murkmire Magden buffs such as the Deep Fissure ~800 cost decrease, Blue Betty ~1k mag restore increase, and the Advanced Species 1% Passive damage increase don't even come close to cancelling out the Murkmire Magden nerfs such as the Eternal Guardian 30% damage nerf, Fetcher Infection 30% cost increase, Bird of Prey front bar berserk restriction and 60% speed duration decrease upon activation... While us Magden mains had really high hopes for gaining some more offensive capabilities and class definition in Murkmire to balance our beloved characters with the other classes we ended up with a patch that hurt Magdens viability and class definition badly...
The two ultimate pain points of the Magden community are the weakness of the ice element from a dps perspective and the general dyssynergy of Magden's offensive toolkit...
First, the cryomancy aspect of the practically dead Magden subclass which makes up a significant amount of its class identity apart from the very popular Stamden subclass is extraordinarily weak because the abilities and passives of the winters embrace tree have been tailored to function ONLY for warden tanks instead of for both warden mages and warden tanks... The result of the "ice is for tanks only" concept has left Magden with only 4 viable offensive abilities while the other classes have significantly more firepower and offensive diversity. Magdk has 12 viable offensive abilities, Magplar has 10, Magsorc has 9, and Magblade has 9... Because of this imbalance, the Magden community would very much appreciate if the people at ZOS could at reconsider their view on ice tanking and add some real offensive power to the winters embrace tree.
Some ideas for the winters embrace tree that are very popular amonst Magden mains are a good ice dot on the new arctic blast, a complete rework of the crystalized slab morph of crystalized shield into an offensive morph with a proc condition to give Ice magdens a class defining skills (something like "shimmering swords" would give offensive ice mages some identity sort of how power lash, crystal frags, assassins will gives identity to Magdks, Magsorcs, and Magblades), a rework of the Frozen Retreat morph of Frozen gate so that it keeps its ally pull/enemy root, gains additional damage, and losses its enemy pull
Second, the abilities in Magdens offensive toolkit just dont work well together... This is a threefold problem... First, while Magden was seemingly designed to be a kitting or ranged controlling type class as shown by that the secondary condition of their main spammable screaming cliff racer is that the ability does more damage the further you are from your target and that their main burst skill deep fissure is aimed and delayed, Magden just doesn't have the mobility (good expedition uptime and snare/root immunity) or crowd control capabilities (viable ranged cc/snares/roots) to build distance or control opponents. Second, as previously mentioned, the change to screaming cliff racers projectile speed increase ruined the synergy that this skill had with deep fissure. Third, the cost increase to fletcher infection has made the double cast mechanic of this skill very undesirable.
Totally agreed. I just want to add deep fissure and permafrost both are still most impactful when being close up to a bunch of enemies (you want to hit em all, not just the one being closest to you) - which directly contradicts screaming cliffracer dmg bonus design. The class is flawed, it doesn't line up design & gameplay wise.
It's so obvious, yet none of the creators seem to care even a tiny bit. It's a shame, really.
Mojomonkeyman wrote: »To explain the situation to anyone at zos who is confused by the current outrage of the Magden community... Magden was exposed as an incomplete class when screaming cliff racer was balanced and it became a joke in the PvP community when the stun was removed from fissure, fetcher infection became reflectable and screaming cliff racer was sped up as a "buff to its reliablity" which caused its damage to no longer line up with that of deep fissure for burst combos... These things and the general state of Magden PvP was brought up in the forums and by the class reps several times and yet you guys continued to nerf Magden basically every single patch even though it is wildly recognized by the PvP community as the worst subclass in the game in need of serious buffs... The Murkmire Magden buffs such as the Deep Fissure ~800 cost decrease, Blue Betty ~1k mag restore increase, and the Advanced Species 1% Passive damage increase don't even come close to cancelling out the Murkmire Magden nerfs such as the Eternal Guardian 30% damage nerf, Fetcher Infection 30% cost increase, Bird of Prey front bar berserk restriction and 60% speed duration decrease upon activation... While us Magden mains had really high hopes for gaining some more offensive capabilities and class definition in Murkmire to balance our beloved characters with the other classes we ended up with a patch that hurt Magdens viability and class definition badly...
The two ultimate pain points of the Magden community are the weakness of the ice element from a dps perspective and the general dyssynergy of Magden's offensive toolkit...
First, the cryomancy aspect of the practically dead Magden subclass which makes up a significant amount of its class identity apart from the very popular Stamden subclass is extraordinarily weak because the abilities and passives of the winters embrace tree have been tailored to function ONLY for warden tanks instead of for both warden mages and warden tanks... The result of the "ice is for tanks only" concept has left Magden with only 4 viable offensive abilities while the other classes have significantly more firepower and offensive diversity. Magdk has 12 viable offensive abilities, Magplar has 10, Magsorc has 9, and Magblade has 9... Because of this imbalance, the Magden community would very much appreciate if the people at ZOS could at reconsider their view on ice tanking and add some real offensive power to the winters embrace tree.
Some ideas for the winters embrace tree that are very popular amonst Magden mains are a good ice dot on the new arctic blast, a complete rework of the crystalized slab morph of crystalized shield into an offensive morph with a proc condition to give Ice magdens a class defining skills (something like "shimmering swords" would give offensive ice mages some identity sort of how power lash, crystal frags, assassins will gives identity to Magdks, Magsorcs, and Magblades), a rework of the Frozen Retreat morph of Frozen gate so that it keeps its ally pull/enemy root, gains additional damage, and losses its enemy pull
Second, the abilities in Magdens offensive toolkit just dont work well together... This is a threefold problem... First, while Magden was seemingly designed to be a kitting or ranged controlling type class as shown by that the secondary condition of their main spammable screaming cliff racer is that the ability does more damage the further you are from your target and that their main burst skill deep fissure is aimed and delayed, Magden just doesn't have the mobility (good expedition uptime and snare/root immunity) or crowd control capabilities (viable ranged cc/snares/roots) to build distance or control opponents. Second, as previously mentioned, the change to screaming cliff racers projectile speed increase ruined the synergy that this skill had with deep fissure. Third, the cost increase to fletcher infection has made the double cast mechanic of this skill very undesirable.
Totally agreed. I just want to add deep fissure and permafrost both are still most impactful when being close up to a bunch of enemies (you want to hit em all, not just the one being closest to you) - which directly contradicts screaming cliffracer dmg bonus design. The class is flawed, it doesn't line up design & gameplay wise.
It's so obvious, yet none of the creators seem to care even a tiny bit. It's a shame, really.
Which is surprising now that the class is a crown store item. I had thought they rework it a bit when they separated it from Morrowind and sold it on its own. Right now, only StamWarden justifies the class.