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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/475853/
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Lets talk about one of the dumbest features added back to this game - Forward Camps

  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    Mintaka5 wrote: »
    I disagree. FCs are just another strategic element of the game. You don't have to use them, but if you do, and you use them right, they give you a good strategic advantage. This is no different IRL with forward bases of operation for modern military. It's logistics, dummy.

    Yes cause obviously IRL you can gather a group of people go deep behind enemy lines, "fail" and set up bases of operation on the fly whenever you want for people to come back into the fight. "Its logistics, dummy". Lmao
  • leeux
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    IMHO, a change that would make "sense" (at least for me) and solve many of the issues I have with camps myself is:

    People that died BEFORE the camp was placed cannot use it... you would have to have died within the range of the camp, while the camp was already placed in order to be ablet to use it.

    That would make them a strategic tool to use and not a rescue device.

    And I'm completely aware that such a change will negatively impact me too, since I sometimes use them as a rescue crutch too... but I'd prefer not to have that option, so less mindful play is more difficult to pull off... that's my preference, though.

    EDIT: Clarification... and I mean, by "less mindful" to something that you do just to see how it goes... "hey, lets go hit the back keeps and if we die, we'll then go take rss!" you would be able to still do it, but you just can't forget to pre place the camp before attempting it, as sometimes happens... No more "Hey, player that lived, run awat and place a camp for us! so we can keep doing this thing that is destined not to work'' :smiley:
    Edited by leeux on October 8, 2018 7:58PM
    PC/NA - Proud old member of the Antique Ordinatus Populus

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  • frozywozy
    frozywozy
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    pieratsos wrote: »

    And please now with camps solving the issue of stale maps. Is this a joke? Camps literally enable stale maps. That's the whole point of asking for the removal camps. To enable fights outside of a couple of keeps that are being sieged for hours cause every can constantly rez at camps.

    My solution to this problem was already mentioned in one of my post in this thread. The one you quoted. I suggest that you read carefuly a post before addressing it with a point I already gave a solution to. Here it is again.
    My solution to your problem would be to make it so you can only use forward camps offensively (as where their name comes from) and defenders should only be able to place a camp outside of a tick range of any objective. As a result, people defending would have to be very careful. No more stealth camp deploy to rez 12 players that ignore all kind of enemies and run straight inside the inner postern like if the doors could only be opened for defenders.

    As a result, both sides would have to be careful and get only one chance when pushing out or pushing in the inner.
    Edited by frozywozy on October 9, 2018 1:45AM
    Frozn - Stamdk - AR50
    Frosted - Magplar - AR50
    Frodn - Magden - AR50
    Warmed - Magblade - AR50
    Mmfrozy - Magsorc - AR27
    Necrozn - Magcro - AR8
    www.twitch.tv/frozyeso
    In the end.. EP WINS!!!
    • Change emperorship to value faction score points and not alliance points - see this and this
    • Fix the permanent block animation - see examples : link1 link2 link3 link4 link5
    • Change Retreating Maneuvers to apply only to 12 players and give it the Streak treatment
    • Add 2 more quickslots to the wheel or add a different wheel for sieges weaponry only
    • Gives players 10 minutes to get back into Cyrodiil after relogging / crashing
    • Increase Forward Momentum snare immunity duration to 8 seconds
    • Assign specific group sizes to specific campaigns (24-16-8)
    • Make forward camps impossible to place near objectives
    • Add an escape move to templars other than mist form
    • Fix crashes when approaching a keep under attack
    • Make snares only available from ground effects
    • Change emperorship to last minimum 24hours
    • Fix body sliding after cc breaking too quickly
    • Fix the speed drop while jumping - see video
    • Bring back dynamic ulti regeneration
    • Fix speed bug (abilities locked)
    • Lower population cap by 20%
    • Add Snare Immunity potions
    • Wtb dynamic population
    • Fix long loading screens
    • Bring ResSickness
    • Fix gap closer bug
    • Fix health desync
    • Fix combat bug
    • Fix server lag
  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
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    leeux wrote: »
    IMHO, a change that would make "sense" (at least for me) and solve many of the issues I have with camps myself is:

    People that died BEFORE the camp was placed cannot use it... you would have to have died within the range of the camp, while the camp was already placed in order to be ablet to use it.

    That would make them a strategic tool to use and not a rescue device.

    And I'm completely aware that such a change will negatively impact me too, since I sometimes use them as a rescue crutch too... but I'd prefer not to have that option, so less mindful play is more difficult to pull off... that's my preference, though.

    EDIT: Clarification... and I mean, by "less mindful" to something that you do just to see how it goes... "hey, lets go hit the back keeps and if we die, we'll then go take rss!" you would be able to still do it, but you just can't forget to pre place the camp before attempting it, as sometimes happens... No more "Hey, player that lived, run awat and place a camp for us! so we can keep doing this thing that is destined not to work'' :smiley:

    I actually agree with this...I think this change would fix the problem 100%

    It wouldn't be used as just another Group Rez and would actually require thought before placing.

    Bravo man..that's a good idea.

    Edited by Xsorus on October 9, 2018 2:56AM
  • Sacredx
    Sacredx
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    leeux wrote: »
    IMHO, a change that would make "sense" (at least for me) and solve many of the issues I have with camps myself is:

    People that died BEFORE the camp was placed cannot use it... you would have to have died within the range of the camp, while the camp was already placed in order to be ablet to use it.

    That would make them a strategic tool to use and not a rescue device.

    And I'm completely aware that such a change will negatively impact me too, since I sometimes use them as a rescue crutch too... but I'd prefer not to have that option, so less mindful play is more difficult to pull off... that's my preference, though.

    EDIT: Clarification... and I mean, by "less mindful" to something that you do just to see how it goes... "hey, lets go hit the back keeps and if we die, we'll then go take rss!" you would be able to still do it, but you just can't forget to pre place the camp before attempting it, as sometimes happens... No more "Hey, player that lived, run awat and place a camp for us! so we can keep doing this thing that is destined not to work'' :smiley:

    This is the best idea so far. It makes camp usage proactive rather than reactive that we see in game. If a group gets beaten and someone gets away they should not have the ability to place a camp and rez everyone. This is a very backwards approach that must be removed from the game. Camps should be used ahead of confrontation and groups have to place them in strategic locations. Camps then have a risk of being revealed and destroyed rather than an insta group rez that they are used for now. You should not reward groups who have been beaten with a group rez, they lost and should start over, end of story.

    This would also encourage players to go elsewhere on the map to spread the population which is what everyone wants.
    PC NA PvP Oceanic
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  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    frozywozy wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »

    And please now with camps solving the issue of stale maps. Is this a joke? Camps literally enable stale maps. That's the whole point of asking for the removal camps. To enable fights outside of a couple of keeps that are being sieged for hours cause every can constantly rez at camps.

    My solution to this problem was already mentioned in one of my post in this thread. The one you quoted. I suggest that you read carefuly a post before addressing it with a point I already gave a solution to. Here it is again.
    My solution to your problem would be to make it so you can only use forward camps offensively (as where their name comes from) and defenders should only be able to place a camp outside of a tick range of any objective. As a result, people defending would have to be very careful. No more stealth camp deploy to rez 12 players that ignore all kind of enemies and run straight inside the inner postern like if the doors could only be opened for defenders.

    As a result, both sides would have to be careful and get only one chance when pushing out or pushing in the inner.

    Your solution is extremely biased. You are literally taking shots at the defenders with that stealth camp to rez people thing as if attackers don't do that. In fact they actually don't. No need for stealth camps or whatever. They can just freely surround the keep with camps for everyone to rez. If anything the whole stealth camp thing is actually more balanced. At least they have to be careful where they put it which is how the whole concept of stealth camps exists in the first place.

    I understand that it can look impossible to take a keep some times because of the stupid meatbags and scattershot death zones. But that's an issue with those specific siege weapons. Putting defenders in a severe disadvantage by crippling their ability to place camps while attackers can still use them freely and justifying it with "hey now u can fight people outside of the keep" isn't a solution. It's just another band aid fix "solving" one issue and creating multiple others cause the actual root of the problem still exists. And I'm not even sure about what exactly do u solve with this. You just want to give people the ability to only interrupt defence reinforcements while attackers get a free pass.
  • frozywozy
    frozywozy
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    pieratsos wrote: »
    frozywozy wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »

    And please now with camps solving the issue of stale maps. Is this a joke? Camps literally enable stale maps. That's the whole point of asking for the removal camps. To enable fights outside of a couple of keeps that are being sieged for hours cause every can constantly rez at camps.

    My solution to this problem was already mentioned in one of my post in this thread. The one you quoted. I suggest that you read carefuly a post before addressing it with a point I already gave a solution to. Here it is again.
    My solution to your problem would be to make it so you can only use forward camps offensively (as where their name comes from) and defenders should only be able to place a camp outside of a tick range of any objective. As a result, people defending would have to be very careful. No more stealth camp deploy to rez 12 players that ignore all kind of enemies and run straight inside the inner postern like if the doors could only be opened for defenders.

    As a result, both sides would have to be careful and get only one chance when pushing out or pushing in the inner.

    Your solution is extremely biased. You are literally taking shots at the defenders with that stealth camp to rez people thing as if attackers don't do that. In fact they actually don't. No need for stealth camps or whatever. They can just freely surround the keep with camps for everyone to rez. If anything the whole stealth camp thing is actually more balanced. At least they have to be careful where they put it which is how the whole concept of stealth camps exists in the first place.

    I understand that it can look impossible to take a keep some times because of the stupid meatbags and scattershot death zones. But that's an issue with those specific siege weapons. Putting defenders in a severe disadvantage by crippling their ability to place camps while attackers can still use them freely and justifying it with "hey now u can fight people outside of the keep" isn't a solution. It's just another band aid fix "solving" one issue and creating multiple others cause the actual root of the problem still exists. And I'm not even sure about what exactly do u solve with this. You just want to give people the ability to only interrupt defence reinforcements while attackers get a free pass.

    Ok I give up this argumentation with you.. What you say simply does not make any sense to me.
    Frozn - Stamdk - AR50
    Frosted - Magplar - AR50
    Frodn - Magden - AR50
    Warmed - Magblade - AR50
    Mmfrozy - Magsorc - AR27
    Necrozn - Magcro - AR8
    www.twitch.tv/frozyeso
    In the end.. EP WINS!!!
    • Change emperorship to value faction score points and not alliance points - see this and this
    • Fix the permanent block animation - see examples : link1 link2 link3 link4 link5
    • Change Retreating Maneuvers to apply only to 12 players and give it the Streak treatment
    • Add 2 more quickslots to the wheel or add a different wheel for sieges weaponry only
    • Gives players 10 minutes to get back into Cyrodiil after relogging / crashing
    • Increase Forward Momentum snare immunity duration to 8 seconds
    • Assign specific group sizes to specific campaigns (24-16-8)
    • Make forward camps impossible to place near objectives
    • Add an escape move to templars other than mist form
    • Fix crashes when approaching a keep under attack
    • Make snares only available from ground effects
    • Change emperorship to last minimum 24hours
    • Fix body sliding after cc breaking too quickly
    • Fix the speed drop while jumping - see video
    • Bring back dynamic ulti regeneration
    • Fix speed bug (abilities locked)
    • Lower population cap by 20%
    • Add Snare Immunity potions
    • Wtb dynamic population
    • Fix long loading screens
    • Bring ResSickness
    • Fix gap closer bug
    • Fix health desync
    • Fix combat bug
    • Fix server lag
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    frozywozy wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    frozywozy wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »

    And please now with camps solving the issue of stale maps. Is this a joke? Camps literally enable stale maps. That's the whole point of asking for the removal camps. To enable fights outside of a couple of keeps that are being sieged for hours cause every can constantly rez at camps.

    My solution to this problem was already mentioned in one of my post in this thread. The one you quoted. I suggest that you read carefuly a post before addressing it with a point I already gave a solution to. Here it is again.
    My solution to your problem would be to make it so you can only use forward camps offensively (as where their name comes from) and defenders should only be able to place a camp outside of a tick range of any objective. As a result, people defending would have to be very careful. No more stealth camp deploy to rez 12 players that ignore all kind of enemies and run straight inside the inner postern like if the doors could only be opened for defenders.

    As a result, both sides would have to be careful and get only one chance when pushing out or pushing in the inner.

    Your solution is extremely biased. You are literally taking shots at the defenders with that stealth camp to rez people thing as if attackers don't do that. In fact they actually don't. No need for stealth camps or whatever. They can just freely surround the keep with camps for everyone to rez. If anything the whole stealth camp thing is actually more balanced. At least they have to be careful where they put it which is how the whole concept of stealth camps exists in the first place.

    I understand that it can look impossible to take a keep some times because of the stupid meatbags and scattershot death zones. But that's an issue with those specific siege weapons. Putting defenders in a severe disadvantage by crippling their ability to place camps while attackers can still use them freely and justifying it with "hey now u can fight people outside of the keep" isn't a solution. It's just another band aid fix "solving" one issue and creating multiple others cause the actual root of the problem still exists. And I'm not even sure about what exactly do u solve with this. You just want to give people the ability to only interrupt defence reinforcements while attackers get a free pass.

    Ok I give up this argumentation with you.. What you say simply does not make any sense to me.

    So basically anyone who doesnt agree with you makes no sense. Got it now. You should have probably opened up the entire argument with this.
  • Xeniph
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    Xsorus wrote: »
    I know, there are going to be some people who come in here and say "Without them this is Horse simulator online!!!" ...Which i say false, without them..This is Large Scale PvP online...and in that game if you die...You might have to ride back to the fight if you can't get a res..Which is how its suppose to work...you want to instantly get back into the fight...play BGs or run around in IC.

    Forward Camps themselves are basically an instant aoe rez...available to everyone every 5 minutes. You fight a Zerg Guild and you kill 23 out of 24 people..Guess what..They all get Rezzed to full health and no penalty what so ever.

    You have things like this that were added to previous games like DAOC (there ya go Joy) and quickly removed because they learned the same thing...that AOE rez is powerful..and you shouldn't give it to everyone in a Zerg.

    I can't agree more.

    I absolutely HATE camps outside of keeps defenses. I think they are fine when defending a keep, but outside of that you are spot on.

    Folks on AD absolutely refuse to camp bodies or hunt that one guy from a ball zerg that got away and BAM! Zerg is back and up.

    I wholeheartedly wish they would have stayed gone.
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    Phenîx- NB / Phenix- NB
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    Phénix- Sorc/ Xeniph- Sorc
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  • VaranisArano
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    Xeniph wrote: »
    Xsorus wrote: »
    I know, there are going to be some people who come in here and say "Without them this is Horse simulator online!!!" ...Which i say false, without them..This is Large Scale PvP online...and in that game if you die...You might have to ride back to the fight if you can't get a res..Which is how its suppose to work...you want to instantly get back into the fight...play BGs or run around in IC.

    Forward Camps themselves are basically an instant aoe rez...available to everyone every 5 minutes. You fight a Zerg Guild and you kill 23 out of 24 people..Guess what..They all get Rezzed to full health and no penalty what so ever.

    You have things like this that were added to previous games like DAOC (there ya go Joy) and quickly removed because they learned the same thing...that AOE rez is powerful..and you shouldn't give it to everyone in a Zerg.

    I can't agree more.

    I absolutely HATE camps outside of keeps defenses. I think they are fine when defending a keep, but outside of that you are spot on.

    Folks on AD absolutely refuse to camp bodies or hunt that one guy from a ball zerg that got away and BAM! Zerg is back and up.

    I wholeheartedly wish they would have stayed gone.

    That last is why I laugh when people complain about the zerg chasing for days after one person.

    Like, did they just meet you in a field and decide to chase for days?

    Because if my raid is chasing one person near an objective, we're making sure you aren't getting away to set up that camp.
  • zyk
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    That last is why I laugh when people complain about the zerg chasing for days after one person.

    Like, did they just meet you in a field and decide to chase for days?

    Because if my raid is chasing one person near an objective, we're making sure you aren't getting away to set up that camp.
    That Xv1/zerged me down whining is just the salty-about-dying MMO equivalent of virtue signalling anyway.

    "omg, we tried farming their team at a resource and they had the nerve to chase us when we disengaged!!! HEATHENS!"
    Edited by zyk on October 10, 2018 8:06PM
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster . . . when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you"
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  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    People will stack, wether there are Camps or no. In fact I think anything that increases the risk of death will lead to people stacking even more. Also, if there are no camps, PvDooring with 40+ people becomes even more attractive. Removing or changing camps won’t solve that. Only a change of various parameters, from tick distribution to build choices, would perhaps achieve that.
    Edited by Feanor on October 11, 2018 10:12AM
    Main characters:
    Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 41 - Stormproof (PC EU)
    Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)

    Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial Necromancer (lvl 8)
    Fearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)
    Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)
    Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDK
    Valirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBlade
    Turuna - AD Altmer magBlade
    Kheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDK
    Kibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - Stormproof
    Yavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWarden
    Azog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWarden
    Vidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDK
    Marquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - Stormproof
    Rawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWarden
    Tu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar

    All chars 50 @ CP 1000+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on Bahlokdaan PC EU.
  • Sharee
    Sharee
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    Forward camp should be visible and destroyable immediately after being built, but only become available as a rez point after some time elapses(debatable, i'd say at least a couple of minutes, to give other side time to find it).

    That way it can still fulfill its purpose as a forward base without being a de-facto unpreventable instant AOE rez.

    I mean, manual rezzing of one dead can be easily prevented, but AOE rezzing the whole raid is virtually impossible to prevent, how does that make any sense.
  • Datthaw
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    Fcs can really fail though. Sometimes its just an AP dispenser
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