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Poll before proposing a nerf: DO YOU THINK BLEEDS ARE A PROBLEM IN PvP AND WHY?
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Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yes bleeds need to be changed/adjusted IN ADDITION to a nerf. - Explain why/how.Ragnarock41 wrote: »Maces should be for dealing heavy armor foes, not axes, I believe bleeds should get a tooltip buff, then a nerf to its %100 penetration, and then finally maces can use some buffs to make it clear that they are meant to deal with armor.
And then everyone will just use maces all the time.
Would they? I'd doubt that because dual wield daggers already offer a much better deal than maces or swords, as for 2h weapons greatswords are for highest raw damage and maces are for armor penetration, makes a lot of sense to me that way. Meanwhile axes as of right now have the best of both worlds because of bleeds ignoring resists.
More importantly, 2h is already a back bar weapon as of right now, if anything this alone should be enough of a reason to give mace a boost to about %25-30 armor pen.Edited by Ragnarock41 on October 12, 2018 12:03PM0 -
Nyladreas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yes bleeds need to be changed/adjustend - not necessarily nerfed - Explain why/how.Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Maces should be for dealing heavy armor foes, not axes, I believe bleeds should get a tooltip buff, then a nerf to its %100 penetration, and then finally maces can use some buffs to make it clear that they are meant to deal with armor.
And then everyone will just use maces all the time.
Would they? I'd doubt that because dual wield daggers already offer a much better deal than maces or swords, as for 2h weapons greatswords are for highest raw damage and maces are for armor penetration, makes a lot of sense to me that way. Meanwhile axes as of right now have the best of both worlds because of bleeds ignoring resists.
More importantly, 2h is already a back bar weapon as of right now, if anything this alone should be enough of a reason to give mace a boost to about %25-30 armor pen.
I edited my comment @Ragnarock41 like i said it's not a bad idea in concept at all. Currently the armor penetration on maces comes AFTER all other sources. Making it crap.Edited by Nyladreas on October 12, 2018 12:13PM0 -
Casul✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bleeeds aren't the problem, it's other factors that force bleeds to be so prominent - Explain why.In my opinion it isn’t the fact that bleed is strong, it’s the fact the purge is so ineffective and inefficient.PvP needs more love.0 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yes bleeds need to be changed/adjusted IN ADDITION to a nerf. - Explain why/how.Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Maces should be for dealing heavy armor foes, not axes, I believe bleeds should get a tooltip buff, then a nerf to its %100 penetration, and then finally maces can use some buffs to make it clear that they are meant to deal with armor.
And then everyone will just use maces all the time.
Would they? I'd doubt that because dual wield daggers already offer a much better deal than maces or swords, as for 2h weapons greatswords are for highest raw damage and maces are for armor penetration, makes a lot of sense to me that way. Meanwhile axes as of right now have the best of both worlds because of bleeds ignoring resists.
More importantly, 2h is already a back bar weapon as of right now, if anything this alone should be enough of a reason to give mace a boost to about %25-30 armor pen.
I edited my comment @Ragnarock41 like i said it's not a bad idea in concept at all. Currently the armor penetration on maces comes AFTER all other sources. Making it crap.
Weeelll, either way I feel like we are wasting our breath here. As long as the balance team is 6 months behind in the ''catch up to the meta'' mini game, we will always have these problems, today the axe bleeds, tomorrow another thing that they broke due to poorly thought balance changes.
PS : I've read your edit and I gotta say, permablock is no longer a problem anymore(duel players might need another minute to agree), and definitely not going to be in nerfmire, with mobility being nerfed, I can assure you a permablocker will be as slow as a turtle now. Permablock to win is a thing of the past for open world friend. Its not even gonna keep you alive against one bleed user, like lets say, a good stamblade, unless you do have a healer cleansing all the debuffs+dots you eat.
Also one more tip against permablockers, have high penetration, use roots and unblockable CC. This is how I dealth with meta magDK permablockers back in morrowind days, when they were literally easy mode to play.Edited by Ragnarock41 on October 12, 2018 12:26PM0 -
RaddlemanNumber7✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I think bleeds are fine in their current state - Explain why/how.I rarely see bleeds on my characters' death recaps, and when I do they are usually only a small portion of the damage my toon has suffered. I do not use bleeds as a method of attack on any of my characters.
PC EU0 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think bleeds are fine in their current state - Explain why/how.These nerf threads need to stop. Noone gives a damn about PvP. PvP is a side-dish, and always has been.6 -
starlizard70ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Other - Suggest ideas.Siohwenoeht wrote: »With so many running heavy armor and that playstyle probably will only increase with murkmire, bleeds provide a good counter. Unfortunately, medium and light armor users are even more vulnerable. Don't have a surefire answer to make everyone happy but without bleeds as they are I think we'll see too many nigh-unkillable tanks.
This ^ is the problem, or at least a large part of it. While bleed builds maybe OP against many light and medium armor types, bleeds are one of the few ways to successfully fight against the heavy armor, health sustain builds. If you nerf bleeds, then everyone in Cyrodiil will just switch over to heavy tank builds. You can't really fix one (bleeds) without fixing the other (heavy builds)."We have found a cave, but I don't think there are warm fires and friendly faces inside."1 -
therift✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Bleeeds aren't the problem, it's other factors that force bleeds to be so prominent - Explain why.Explanation: After the recent avalanche of Nerf threads, I automatically vote 'No' without considering the issue at all.4 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Bleeeds aren't the problem, it's other factors that force bleeds to be so prominent - Explain why.They're just too cheap. (Free in the case of Twin Blade and Blunt)1 -
Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think bleeds are fine in their current state - Explain why/how.I don't really PvP that much, but I can't say I've noticed bleeds being a problem. Well, at least not within the context of all the other things that seem to be a problem about PvP.0 -
generalmyrick✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bleeeds aren't the problem, it's other factors that force bleeds to be so prominent - Explain why.REMOVE trees and rocks...and other kitable items...
OR
destroy immunity to snares/immobs."The red pill and its opposite, the blue pill, are a popular cultural meme, a metaphor representing the choice between:
Knowledge, freedom, uncertainty and the brutal truths of reality (red pill)
Security, happiness, beauty, and the blissful ignorance of illusion (blue pill)"
Insight to Agree to Awesome Ratio = 1:6.04:2.76 as of 1/25/2019
Compared to people that I've ignored = I am 18% more insightful, 20% less agreeable, and 88% more awesome.0 -
usmguy1234✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes bleeds need to be changed/adjustend - not necessarily nerfed - Explain why/how.usmguy1234 wrote: »Bleeds just need to be adjusted to be more effective the higher the targets resistances are and decreased the lower the v resistances are.
That's exactly what I'd like to propose. We need to find a good resistance threshold to start with.
I'd say the number needs to be between 25 and 30k resistance.Zaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
Eirius- Altmer Magdk
Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar
Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.0 -
TheDoomsdayMonster✭✭✭✭✭I think bleeds are fine in their current state - Explain why/how.I think Bleeds are fine as is; I see nothing overpowering about them that requires adjustment...Unyeilding Bias
PSN TheLordofMurder
PS4 NA
Magicka Templar
DC
The Combat Physician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKaqUVm_8JE&t=142s0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seems a very small minority think bleeds should be nerfed based on the poll ATM. 26%. Almost half that of those that bleeds are fine while, not even getting to the % that thinks they need to be buffed.
Good think for OP that the poll is not statistically relevant, just entertainment value.0 -
dotme✭✭✭✭✭
✭Other - Suggest ideas.Granted ESO is my first MMO, and I'm 95% PvP, but I don't understand the constant calls for nerfs. In PvP, I kill players, and they kill me. Seems about even.
No offense to those creating the nerf threads (and I realize this isn't one - yet) but if I were ZOS I would ignore them all. They have access to stats, the system should show them kill/death ratios ranked by build, armor, race, class etc in PvP, and if there's a particular combo that rises above the herd in terms of over-performance, they should just step on it a bit.
With thousands of players, numbers should be pretty accurate. If ZOS doesn't have a system like that, and instead relies on forum posts and the emotions those carry to figure out if there's a meta that's over-performing, they'll never get the balance right.PS5NA0 -
Moonsorrow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Other - Suggest ideas.Nyladreas, i like your new approach of atleast a poll before asking a nerf better than the old a bit more.. slightly "angry rant" style.
Personally i think bleeds are fine, only Master Axes are a tiny bit overtuned, like a small adjustment to it and all is well imo. Then again, they are supposed to be strong, so the adjustment should be really small. I would not loose sleep though if nothing was done, they are fine enough right now too, but can be tricky to fight against for the famous new people. But death at ESO is supposed to be a learning experience (and a fast way to spawn elsewhere haha) anyways.
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Monsieur✭✭✭I think bleeds are fine in their current state - Explain why/how.Given ZOS’s current form with nerfs, even discussing a nerf feels like poking a Lion with a stick.1
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Siohwenoeht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bleeeds aren't the problem, it's other factors that force bleeds to be so prominent - Explain why.Ragnarock41 wrote: »Maces should be for dealing heavy armor foes, not axes, I believe bleeds should get a tooltip buff, then a nerf to its %100 penetration, and then finally maces can use some buffs to make it clear that they are meant to deal with armor.
I was thinking of something similar, no need for bleeds to have no mitigation. @Ragnarock41 how would it affect werewolf form though? Bleeds are an important part of the werewolf toolkit but they're basically "unarmed" in werewolf form..."It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time saying anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to." - Treebeard0 -
Kolache✭✭✭✭I think bleeds are fine in their current state - Explain why/how.Super tanky characters are more annoying than anything else. Personally I don't really care if bleeds are imba until there's less of a necessity for using them against immortal builds.Something being unbalanced in 1v1 does not imply that it is balanced in group play.1 -
El_Borracho✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Other - Suggest ideas.Just so I have this straight, in the last week alone, we have had the following nerf demands in PVP:
- Magic shields are too powerful
- Dawnbreaker is too powerful
- Vigor is too powerful
- Stamina ultimates are too powerful
- Stamblades are too powerful
- Magblades are too powerful
- Dragonknights are too powerful
- Petsorcs are too powerful
- Sprinting is too powerful
- Earthgore is too powerful
- Stamwardens are too powerful
And now people are saying bleeds are too powerful.
Please, for the love of all that is holy, quit playing PVP if everything is too powerful. The rest of us can't take all the nerfs.2 -
mr_wazzabi✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think bleeds are fine in their current state - Explain why/how.Might come from a bit biased perspective but here we go:
Without the bleeds werewolf would barely be viable in PvP (they could still be viable, hence the "barely"). Severely nerfing bleeds would undermine the unique pressure a werewolf can put on someone in PvP. If bleeds were to see a severe nerf, werewolfs need to get a hefty compensation in order to be viable.
I don´t want to see the basic mechanics of how bleeds work (aka ignoring physical resistance) being changed, since I think they´re a necessary evil. If people feel that certain sources of bleed are too strong, then reducing the value of that source would be a better choice imo. But nerfing bleeds in a general way that affects all sources of bleed-damage will hurt certain "classes" (I refer werewolf as a "class") more than others, in this case, it would be a huge nerf to werewolfs (which isn´t needed imo)
Thanks for your input, my idea of mechanical change is entirely different. And It does have werewolves in mind, which would remain untouched. Same with PvE. PvE would remain entirely untouched. My idea is not a nerf in a true sense, but rather a buff to lower armor tiers....
Option number 1:
1)Keep current numbers up on bleeds as they currently exist in the game.
2) Light armor receives 3-4% Bleed Resistance per piece of armor.
3) Medium Armor receives 2-3% of Bleed Resistance per piece of armor.
4) Heavy Armor receives 3-4% of Bleed Vulnerability per piece of armor.
5) Monitor Werewolf bleed performance in the new setting, increase the bleed damage as needed - baseline 10%. Do not touch otherwise. (PTS testing required)
6) Make this a part of Battlespirit or put a player-source conditional on these new debuffs, to help PvE remain untouched (as bleeds exist in PvE)
Option number 2:
1) Give every single bleed in the game a passive mechanic (tied to battlespirit) which reacts to your opponent's resistance pool.
2) Bleed will now always tick weak at low armor, always tick strong on high armor.
3) Create a baseline at 15k Armor, where 0% damage Increase is in place.
4) Numerical values could be easily based on 1,000s after the baseline pool.
*Example: Every 1000 of physical resistance above 15k makes the wearer take 1-2% MORE damage from bleeds.
*Example: Every 1000 of physical resistance below 15k makes the wearer take 1-2% LESS damage from bleeds.
Therefore 35k Armor cheese builds would take a whopping 20-40% damage increase from Bleeds. While Sorcs with 8k armor would take 0%. (Keep in mind that 15k baseline pool is just an example - this could be much higher or much lower)
Comment: These % all would need to be tested on PTS to assure that we're not making one piece of armor significantly much stronger than the other. The numerical values are an examples and could be adjusted at will per developer's feelings.
The Heavy Armor vulnerability could potentially force tanky builds to rethink their builds, even if they use bleeds themselves. The point here is to make bleeds exceptionally effective vs Heavy Armor, and non-thrathening to lower armor tiers.
Option number 2 would be preferred, but I feel like ZOS would face some issues or limitations with implementing that.
Additional Step (Would rather not see any more nerfs but it is a concern)
1) Adjust Master DW weapons to at least 1000-1200 (500-600 in PvP <- PTS testing necessary, we don't want to make master DW obsolete)
Both options would workBosmer Stamina NB
Altmer Magicka TEMP
Dunmer DK both stam/mag (depends what I feel like)
Altmer Magicka NB
Breton Magicka Sorc
Redguard Stam Sorc
Max CP1 -
seventaru✭✭Other - Suggest ideas.
You even say it in the title. It's a poll to help you decide what nerf you want. It's another bloody nerf thread in quise of a poll.
It's a poll to help me decide whether the answer SHOULD BE A NERF, or just a mechanical change. Don't assume too much before anything happens, my friendMight come from a bit biased perspective but here we go:
Without the bleeds werewolf would barely be viable in PvP (they could still be viable, hence the "barely"). Severely nerfing bleeds would undermine the unique pressure a werewolf can put on someone in PvP. If bleeds were to see a severe nerf, werewolfs need to get a hefty compensation in order to be viable.
I don´t want to see the basic mechanics of how bleeds work (aka ignoring physical resistance) being changed, since I think they´re a necessary evil. If people feel that certain sources of bleed are too strong, then reducing the value of that source would be a better choice imo. But nerfing bleeds in a general way that affects all sources of bleed-damage will hurt certain "classes" (I refer werewolf as a "class") more than others, in this case, it would be a huge nerf to werewolfs (which isn´t needed imo)
Thanks for your input, my idea of mechanical change is entirely different. And It does have werewolves in mind, which would remain untouched.
I might have missed your suggestion on how to change bleeds, but what's your solution? I'm curious to hear.
@Qbiken original post you quoted.
This is equivalent to a 5 year old waving his/her hand inches from your face while chanting "you can't be mad at me I'm not touching you"
LolEdited by seventaru on October 12, 2018 6:55PM2 -
Nyladreas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yes bleeds need to be changed/adjustend - not necessarily nerfed - Explain why/how.
You even say it in the title. It's a poll to help you decide what nerf you want. It's another bloody nerf thread in quise of a poll.
It's a poll to help me decide whether the answer SHOULD BE A NERF, or just a mechanical change. Don't assume too much before anything happens, my friendMight come from a bit biased perspective but here we go:
Without the bleeds werewolf would barely be viable in PvP (they could still be viable, hence the "barely"). Severely nerfing bleeds would undermine the unique pressure a werewolf can put on someone in PvP. If bleeds were to see a severe nerf, werewolfs need to get a hefty compensation in order to be viable.
I don´t want to see the basic mechanics of how bleeds work (aka ignoring physical resistance) being changed, since I think they´re a necessary evil. If people feel that certain sources of bleed are too strong, then reducing the value of that source would be a better choice imo. But nerfing bleeds in a general way that affects all sources of bleed-damage will hurt certain "classes" (I refer werewolf as a "class") more than others, in this case, it would be a huge nerf to werewolfs (which isn´t needed imo)
Thanks for your input, my idea of mechanical change is entirely different. And It does have werewolves in mind, which would remain untouched.
I might have missed your suggestion on how to change bleeds, but what's your solution? I'm curious to hear.
@Qbiken original post you quoted.
This is equivalent to a 5 year waving his hand inches from your face while chanting "you can't be mad at me I'm not touching you"
Quit crying and play the game
People like you truly baffle me. I stated myself in one of the very first sentences in my OP that I personally don't have troubles with bleeds.
This entire topic is obviously based on feedback I'm seeing on the forums.
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Amdar_Godkiller✭✭✭✭✭Bleeds are weak - Explain why/how.The only issue is that Masters Weapons are all over-powered. Every other bleed in the game is pathetically weak and arguably in need of buffing.0 -
weg0✭✭✭Other - Suggest ideas.The real problem is the whole "damage" meta in general. I think a better idea for PvP would be to battle out our differences with a good old game of Scrabble; or have different arenas for like checkers, spades, hearts, battleship, guess who... the list goes on.
I think abandoning the PK model of PvP could refresh the whole genre! At the very least, we wouldn't have to listen to another FLIPPIN' WHINY NERF NERF NERF thread.1 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yes bleeds need to be changed/adjusted IN ADDITION to a nerf. - Explain why/how.Siohwenoeht wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Maces should be for dealing heavy armor foes, not axes, I believe bleeds should get a tooltip buff, then a nerf to its %100 penetration, and then finally maces can use some buffs to make it clear that they are meant to deal with armor.
I was thinking of something similar, no need for bleeds to have no mitigation. @Ragnarock41 how would it affect werewolf form though? Bleeds are an important part of the werewolf toolkit but they're basically "unarmed" in werewolf form...
Werewolves could need more raw numbers on that bleed tooltip if we were to nerf bleeds, They are not overperforming even with the huge bleeds they have.Edited by Ragnarock41 on October 12, 2018 7:17PM2
