Poll before proposing a nerf: DO YOU THINK BLEEDS ARE A PROBLEM IN PvP AND WHY?

Nyladreas

I'm making this poll before suggesting any nerfs as I have a couple ideas how to deal with this problematic. I come across very strong bleed builds quite rarely, but that could be given my high HPS build which not everybody runs. Now since we want to avoid homogenisation of builds here on ESO, as that is what makes this game so great and unique I've decided to take a slightly different approach. Would like to see some CONSTRUCTIVE & INTELLIGENT INPUT FROM PLAYERS before making any suggestions whatsoever.

Thanks for everyone's input.

Arandear

I'm sure I keep moving from using certain builds because they get nerfed and as soon as I begin using another method, it gets nerfed too.

Girl_Number8

Other - Suggest ideas.

Nerf, the nerf threads and the players that post them. Where is the poll asking about temp banning people that just post nerf thread after nerf thread?

The guy that wants a hobbit house is currently the only good thread on here atm.

Nyladreas

Yes bleeds need to be changed/adjustend - not necessarily nerfed - Explain why/how.

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

Nerf, the nerf threads and the players that post them. Where is the poll asking about temp banning people that just post nerf thread after nerf thread?

The guy that wants a hobbit house is currently the only good thread on here atm.

Thing is i don't want to propose a direct nerf, but rather mechanical adjustment. @Girl_Number8

TroodonsBite

Who nerfs the nerf threads?

Siohwenoeht

Bleeeds aren't the problem, it's other factors that force bleeds to be so prominent - Explain why.

With so many running heavy armor and that playstyle probably will only increase with murkmire, bleeds provide a good counter. Unfortunately, medium and light armor users are even more vulnerable. Don't have a surefire answer to make everyone happy but without bleeds as they are I think we'll see too many nigh-unkillable tanks.

WaltherCarraway

Bleeds are weak - Explain why/how.

Master DW, Battleaxe. + Blooddrinker + Bloodspawn + Agility 3pc.

bruh my blood craze bleed is like 1.8- 2.5k per tick . let's get this straight i do really teabag every stam class i killed and they can't do farce to me beside sending me salty whispers. so yea i guess bleed is not powerful enough it deffy needs a buff when my stamplar gets min/maj protection next patch. hahahahahahahahah


tl:dr

my first source of bleed on your recap should be around 7-9 k. and i can stack 4 different bleeds. lol

zyk

Bleeeds aren't the problem, it's other factors that force bleeds to be so prominent - Explain why.

It's not bleeds that are the problem, it's that ZOS over-buffed Master DW weapons.

Nyladreas

Yes bleeds need to be changed/adjustend - not necessarily nerfed - Explain why/how.

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

Master DW, Battleaxe. + Blooddrinker + Bloodspawn + Agility 3pc.

bruh my blood craze bleed is like 1.8- 2.5k per tick . let's get this straight i do really teabag every stam class i killed and they can't do farce to me beside sending me salty whispers. so yea i guess bleed is not powerful enough it deffy needs a buff when my stamplar gets min/maj protection next patch. hahahahahahahahah

My toon with bleeds has a high wpn dmg build getting up to 3.5k ticks with rending slashes.

That + vMA battle Axe (Charge and Passive bleed), +Cleave + DW Passive Axe Bleed.

All that paired with other abilities and proper weaving is an insane amount of unmitigated damage. But to me bleeds aren't the problem, it's their mechnical behavior. Light armor and Medium armor can be easily dealth with, without bleeds.

WaltherCarraway

Bleeds are weak - Explain why/how.

I get it. Agreed

freespirit

Bleeds? What are Bleeds??

They may be killing me but so does absolutely everything else!

Strider__Roshin

Bleeeds aren't the problem, it's other factors that force bleeds to be so prominent - Explain why.

Master DW weapons.

Morgul667

Other - Suggest ideas.

Enough with the nerf train

Seriously guys...

zyk

Bleeeds aren't the problem, it's other factors that force bleeds to be so prominent - Explain why.

Balance is going to be an ongoing discussion in a game like this. It cannot be achieved by "buffing everything else."

Wing

Bleeeds aren't the problem, it's other factors that force bleeds to be so prominent - Explain why.

its the master DW bleeds primarily.

though guessing whats going to happen:





-have bleeds. they are pretty much fine

-introduce set that makes certain bleeds op

-nerf all bleeds making the bleeds with specific sets decent and all others terrible

-BALANCED

Nyladreas

Yes bleeds need to be changed/adjustend - not necessarily nerfed - Explain why/how.

Wing wrote: »

its the master DW bleeds primarily.

though guessing whats going to happen:





-have bleeds. they are pretty much fine

-introduce set that makes certain bleeds op

-nerf all bleeds making the bleeds with specific sets decent and all others terrible

-BALANCED

Yeah I'd like to avoid that.

seventaru

Other - Suggest ideas.

I really really wish I could block people on the forums. These nerf threads are out of control.
I'm disappointed in this community.

Nyladreas

Yes bleeds need to be changed/adjustend - not necessarily nerfed - Explain why/how.

seventaru wrote: »

I really really wish I could block people on the forums. These nerf threads are out of control.
I'm disappointed in this community.

This isn't a nerf thread though. Do you even read what people post on here?

zyk

Bleeeds aren't the problem, it's other factors that force bleeds to be so prominent - Explain why.

seventaru wrote: »

I really really wish I could block people on the forums. These nerf threads are out of control.
I'm disappointed in this community.

You can ignore players in the forums. But what you really want is to control what others discuss, which you can't do.

Nyladreas

Yes bleeds need to be changed/adjustend - not necessarily nerfed - Explain why/how.

zyk wrote: »

seventaru wrote: »

I really really wish I could block people on the forums. These nerf threads are out of control.
I'm disappointed in this community.

You can ignore players in the forums. But what you really want is to control what others discuss, which you can't do.

Lol agreed.

Qbiken

I think bleeds are fine in their current state - Explain why/how.

Might come from a bit biased perspective but here we go:

Without the bleeds werewolf would barely be viable in PvP (they could still be viable, hence the "barely"). Severely nerfing bleeds would undermine the unique pressure a werewolf can put on someone in PvP. If bleeds were to see a severe nerf, werewolfs need to get a hefty compensation in order to be viable.

I don´t want to see the basic mechanics of how bleeds work (aka ignoring physical resistance) being changed, since I think they´re a necessary evil. If people feel that certain sources of bleed are too strong, then reducing the value of that source would be a better choice imo. But nerfing bleeds in a general way that affects all sources of bleed-damage will hurt certain "classes" (I refer werewolf as a "class") more than others, in this case, it would be a huge nerf to werewolfs (which isn´t needed imo)

ScardyFox

I think bleeds are fine in their current state - Explain why/how.

These types of threads are becoming abysmally tiresome...

RedRook

zyk wrote: »

It's not bleeds that are the problem, it's that ZOS over-buffed Master DW weapons.

^ One simple adjustment to OP gear would do a lot of good. Like they could have done with swift, and instead nerfed the hell out of everybody's class skills.

I can understand why people are so fed up with anything that sounds like it might at some point lead to a nerf request.

But yeah, as usual light armor magicka specs are getting rekt by "anti-tank" PVP measures... run by tanky specs.

Nyladreas

Yes bleeds need to be changed/adjustend - not necessarily nerfed - Explain why/how.

Qbiken wrote: »

Might come from a bit biased perspective but here we go:

Without the bleeds werewolf would barely be viable in PvP (they could still be viable, hence the "barely"). Severely nerfing bleeds would undermine the unique pressure a werewolf can put on someone in PvP. If bleeds were to see a severe nerf, werewolfs need to get a hefty compensation in order to be viable.

I don´t want to see the basic mechanics of how bleeds work (aka ignoring physical resistance) being changed, since I think they´re a necessary evil. If people feel that certain sources of bleed are too strong, then reducing the value of that source would be a better choice imo. But nerfing bleeds in a general way that affects all sources of bleed-damage will hurt certain "classes" (I refer werewolf as a "class") more than others, in this case, it would be a huge nerf to werewolfs (which isn´t needed imo)

Thanks for your input, my idea of mechanical change is entirely different. And It does have werewolves in mind, which would remain untouched. Same with PvE. PvE would remain entirely untouched. My idea is not a nerf in a true sense, but rather a buff to lower armor tiers....

Option number 1:
1)Keep current numbers up on bleeds as they currently exist in the game.
2) Light armor receives 3-4% Bleed Resistance per piece of armor.
3) Medium Armor receives 2-3% of Bleed Resistance per piece of armor.
4) Heavy Armor receives 3-4% of Bleed Vulnerability per piece of armor.
5) Monitor Werewolf bleed performance in the new setting, increase the bleed damage as needed - baseline 10%. Do not touch otherwise. (PTS testing required)
6) Make this a part of Battlespirit or put a player-source conditional on these new debuffs, to help PvE remain untouched (as bleeds exist in PvE)

Option number 2:
1) Give every single bleed in the game a passive mechanic (tied to battlespirit) which reacts to your opponent's resistance pool.
2) Bleed will now always tick weak at low armor, always tick strong on high armor.
3) Create a baseline at 15k Armor, where 0% damage Increase is in place.
4) Numerical values could be easily based on 1,000s after the baseline pool.
*Example: Every 1000 of physical resistance above 15k makes the wearer take 1-2% MORE damage from bleeds.
*Example: Every 1000 of physical resistance below 15k makes the wearer take 1-2% LESS damage from bleeds.

Therefore 35k Armor cheese builds would take a whopping 20-40% damage increase from Bleeds. While Sorcs with 8k armor would take 0%. (Keep in mind that 15k baseline pool is just an example - this could be much higher or much lower)

Comment: These % all would need to be tested on PTS to assure that we're not making one piece of armor significantly much stronger than the other. The numerical values are an examples and could be adjusted at will per developer's feelings.
The Heavy Armor vulnerability could potentially force tanky builds to rethink their builds, even if they use bleeds themselves. The point here is to make bleeds exceptionally effective vs Heavy Armor, and non-thrathening to lower armor tiers.

Option number 2 would be preferred, but I feel like ZOS would face some issues or limitations with implementing that.

Additional Step (Would rather not see any more nerfs but it is a concern)
1) Adjust Master DW weapons to at least 1000-1200 (500-600 in PvP <- PTS testing necessary, we don't want to make master DW obsolete)

Qbiken

I think bleeds are fine in their current state - Explain why/how.

Nyladreas wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Might come from a bit biased perspective but here we go:

Without the bleeds werewolf would barely be viable in PvP (they could still be viable, hence the "barely"). Severely nerfing bleeds would undermine the unique pressure a werewolf can put on someone in PvP. If bleeds were to see a severe nerf, werewolfs need to get a hefty compensation in order to be viable.

I don´t want to see the basic mechanics of how bleeds work (aka ignoring physical resistance) being changed, since I think they´re a necessary evil. If people feel that certain sources of bleed are too strong, then reducing the value of that source would be a better choice imo. But nerfing bleeds in a general way that affects all sources of bleed-damage will hurt certain "classes" (I refer werewolf as a "class") more than others, in this case, it would be a huge nerf to werewolfs (which isn´t needed imo)

Thanks for your input, my idea of mechanical change is entirely different. And It does have werewolves in mind, which would remain untouched.

I might have missed your suggestion on how to change bleeds, but what's your solution? I'm curious to hear.

pdblake

Nyladreas wrote: »

seventaru wrote: »

I really really wish I could block people on the forums. These nerf threads are out of control.
I'm disappointed in this community.

This isn't a nerf thread though. Do you even read what people post on here?

You even say it in the title. It's a poll to help you decide what nerf you want. It's another bloody nerf thread in quise of a poll.

Nyladreas

Yes bleeds need to be changed/adjustend - not necessarily nerfed - Explain why/how.

pdblake wrote: »

Nyladreas wrote: »

seventaru wrote: »

I really really wish I could block people on the forums. These nerf threads are out of control.
I'm disappointed in this community.

This isn't a nerf thread though. Do you even read what people post on here?

You even say it in the title. It's a poll to help you decide what nerf you want. It's another bloody nerf thread in quise of a poll.

It's a poll to help me decide whether the answer SHOULD BE A NERF, or just a mechanical change. Don't assume too much before anything happens, my friend

Qbiken wrote: »

Nyladreas wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Might come from a bit biased perspective but here we go:

Without the bleeds werewolf would barely be viable in PvP (they could still be viable, hence the "barely"). Severely nerfing bleeds would undermine the unique pressure a werewolf can put on someone in PvP. If bleeds were to see a severe nerf, werewolfs need to get a hefty compensation in order to be viable.

I don´t want to see the basic mechanics of how bleeds work (aka ignoring physical resistance) being changed, since I think they´re a necessary evil. If people feel that certain sources of bleed are too strong, then reducing the value of that source would be a better choice imo. But nerfing bleeds in a general way that affects all sources of bleed-damage will hurt certain "classes" (I refer werewolf as a "class") more than others, in this case, it would be a huge nerf to werewolfs (which isn´t needed imo)

Thanks for your input, my idea of mechanical change is entirely different. And It does have werewolves in mind, which would remain untouched.

I might have missed your suggestion on how to change bleeds, but what's your solution? I'm curious to hear.

@Qbiken original post you quoted.

usmguy1234

Yes bleeds need to be changed/adjustend - not necessarily nerfed - Explain why/how.

Bleeds just need to be adjusted to be more effective the higher the targets resistances are and decreased the lower the v resistances are.

Nyladreas

Yes bleeds need to be changed/adjustend - not necessarily nerfed - Explain why/how.

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Bleeds just need to be adjusted to be more effective the higher the targets resistances are and decreased the lower the v resistances are.

That's exactly what I'd like to propose. We need to find a good resistance threshold to start with.

Ragnarock41

Yes bleeds need to be changed/adjusted IN ADDITION to a nerf. - Explain why/how.

Maces should be for dealing heavy armor foes, not axes, I believe bleeds should get a tooltip buff, then a nerf to its %100 penetration, and then finally maces can use some buffs to make it clear that they are meant to deal with armor.

Nyladreas

Yes bleeds need to be changed/adjustend - not necessarily nerfed - Explain why/how.

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Maces should be for dealing heavy armor foes, not axes, I believe bleeds should get a tooltip buff, then a nerf to its %100 penetration, and then finally maces can use some buffs to make it clear that they are meant to deal with armor.

And then everyone will just use maces all the time.

But that's not a bad idea in concept... If mace penetration came before all other sources of penetration (opposite of what it is now) AND had their armor penetration significantly increased it could work. How much though? At least 15-20% PER MACE.

Then the only remaining problem would be Perma-Blocking targets.