let's not. It's called "Ultimate" for a reason.

phbell wrote: »

Another nerf thread.

I am shocked.

It’s not a nerf. If they increase the base damage of class skills by 3% you’d barely notice a dps loss.

Would we start calling them Moderates then?

starkerealm wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

It’s not my idea, it is Zos’ idea.

No, it's extrapolating some very specific balance changes by ZOS. Problems specific to the Warden, in your bear example. Wardens suffer severely, because the bear is, often, their only legitimate DPS choice, while simultaneously the class under-performs for mag DPS under many situations.

So, no, it's not ZOS's idea to apply these as blanket changes across the board, or they would have done it.

The bear is not the only ultimate a warden can use. Anyone who says that is being disingenuous. Just use Ice Comet. If ice damage gives the chilled effect it should work with other ultimates. No. The bear is an ultimate wardens WANT to use but it isn’t as effective as other options. So the solution Zos came up with to solve that problem is to decrease its damage so that wardens won’t want to use it.

max_only wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Seems to me like you're at a too low skill level / game comprehension to be making these kind of suggestions.

Ultimates should have a miss chance. Now I've seen it all.

Some Ultimates already have a miss chance.

I didn’t make this suggestion, Zos did.

Please don’t devolve my thread with personal attacks.

They aren't personal attacks, they are careful observations, based on your suggestions and the content you discuss within your original post.

What ultimates have a miss chance? Perhaps we understand different things with miss chance. Miss chance in my mind is casting an ultimate ability on a target, hitting the target, but having an RNG roll factor decide that your damage is void because of a 'miss'

You’re right in that a miss chance is more of an rng element in the classic sense. The miss chance of the bear has to do with the function of the bear. The way it works has its own miss chance built in.

And what makes you think having an RNG factor decide whether you land your ultimate or not will be something players find engaging and enjoyable when playing various PVE and PVP activities in the game?

Royaji wrote: »

Posts like these are one of the reasons why I'm completely fine with ZOS just ignoring player feedback most of the time. "We got nerfed and they didn't help us defend against those nerfs so nerf them too! wahahwaha." Is a terrible basis for a balance argument.

And it’s probably why actual concerns for the game are ignored.

Dymence wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Seems to me like you're at a too low skill level / game comprehension to be making these kind of suggestions.

Ultimates should have a miss chance. Now I've seen it all.

Some Ultimates already have a miss chance.

I didn’t make this suggestion, Zos did.

Please don’t devolve my thread with personal attacks.

They aren't personal attacks, they are careful observations, based on your suggestions and the content you discuss within your original post.

What ultimates have a miss chance? Perhaps we understand different things with miss chance. Miss chance in my mind is casting an ultimate ability on a target, hitting the target, but having an RNG roll factor decide that your damage is void because of a 'miss'

You’re right in that a miss chance is more of an rng element in the classic sense. The miss chance of the bear has to do with the function of the bear. The way it works has its own miss chance built in.

And what makes you think having an RNG factor decide whether you land your ultimate or not will be something players find engaging and enjoyable when playing various PVE and PVP activities in the game?

We already find it enjoyable when combat pets miss. We apparently find it enjoyable when a double barred ultimate misses. In fact, we find it too enjoyable clearly it needs the damage decreased by 30%. That is the logical conclusion. People are still using the bear regardless of wether it actually lands an attack. In order to fix this we just need to decrease the ultimate’s damage.

Ah I see, so this entire thread was simply made for you to vent your salt regarding magwarden bear and nerfs. Well have fun with that.

Nope.

I’ve accepted this will go forward with the new patch. Nothing is going to change that.

I already made a thread on changing the Warden nerfs.

This thread is not about changing the Warden nerfs. This thread is about applying the logic across the board. If you find my suggestion and reasoning ridiculous then I refer you to the originators of the idea.

josiahva wrote: »

Kova wrote: »

I agree with your desire, but I don't think a majority of players are ready to depart from their kill buttons.

Just look through all the "why does zos hate my class" threads and you will reliably find players who post videos of them absolutely wrecking people with dawnbreakers, 20k leaps, pulling 50k+ dps parses, and yet somehow can do amazing mental gymnastics to prove their class is underpowered 5 minutes later.

A good friend of mine jumped on the proc set meta pre-morrowind after months of being an honorable duelist and he said what most players truly feel,

"I play the game to have fun. Losing isn't fun, and I'm not going to gimp myself when no one else will."

"I play the game to have fun. Losing isn't fun" Thanks for this insight...it explains a lot. I am serious actually, I never stopped to consider it, but this is actually the exact mentality of today's average gamer. They aren't having fun if they aren't winning, some of us come from a different mindset where squashing bugs isn't fun...the fun in games for me comes from overcoming a challenge...not breezing through a game...but then, I am also from a different generation with games far more unforgiving than ESO. Its just sad to realize that aside from Dark Souls and the like there aren't many games that cater to people who like a challenge.

Contra Crew represent! remember when Battletoads came out? every level was a whole different concept and very few of them were breezy. nowadays it does take longer to learn a game, but you mostly only learn it once, and after that yeah people definitely expect to win.

starkerealm wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

It’s not my idea, it is Zos’ idea.

No, it's extrapolating some very specific balance changes by ZOS. Problems specific to the Warden, in your bear example. Wardens suffer severely, because the bear is, often, their only legitimate DPS choice, while simultaneously the class under-performs for mag DPS under many situations.

So, no, it's not ZOS's idea to apply these as blanket changes across the board, or they would have done it.

The bear is not the only ultimate a warden can use. Anyone who says that is being disingenuous. Just use Ice Comet. If ice damage gives the chilled effect it should work with other ultimates. No. The bear is an ultimate wardens WANT to use but it isn’t as effective as other options. So the solution Zos came up with to solve that problem is to decrease its damage so that wardens won’t want to use it.

Ice Comet is not great. You're spending twice the ultimate of Dawnbreaker of Smiting to deal less damage (even on a build without points in Mighty), on a delay... Yeah, that doesn't sound great.

For PvP, a Warden is better served with trees and Ice Storm, but in PvE, passing up the bear is leaving a lot of damage on the table. Even for Stam Wardens, at 75 ultimate, it's a very appealing choice.

So, you can choose to slot ice comet on your warden. I won't stop you. But you will lose DPS for making that choice.

Are there no other ultimates in the game for a dps Warden? Right now it sounds like a double barred bear is their only choice. So it must be overpowered if there aren’t any other choices. That’s why they are giving it a damage decrease.

Seems to me that everyone who feels forced to use class ultimates needs a decrease in the class ultimate so that players of every class don’t feel pressured into using their class ultimate.

Btw Personally I use Permafrost and Warhorn on my health tank Warden. Maybe I need to be freed from using Warhorn as well. Wait! That’s the reason why Warhorn is being changed! To free us from using it. I get it now.

It’s starting to make sense. Once we feel like we have to use something it gets changed so we won’t want to use it anymore, it frees us up for other options.

We could make the other options better but it’s probably more efficient just to make the favorite option worse.

max_only wrote: »

Are there no other ultimates in the game for a dps Warden?

I didn't say that.

I said the Bear has ridiculously good damage for it's ultimate cost, making it the most attractive option for PvE Wardens.

Your counterexample is an underpowered or overpriced ultimate that just isn't worth slotting outside of some very specific circumstances.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Dark Souls, at least to my understanding, despite how hard it is, has no boss or weapon without counter play.

@Ratzkifal, honestly, Dark Souls isn't that hard. It's comparable to vet dungeon content in ESO. The game is characterized by very low time to kill on both players and non-boss enemies.

As for comparing it to ESO and saying there's nothing without counterplay isn't exactly true. A lot of times the counterplay for a given enemy is, "just don't get hit." Stuff like the backstab systems are explicitly designed to prohibit counterplay. The only counterplay for many enemies is foreknowledge. If you know what they'll do beforehand, you can deal with them. But, in the moment reactive combat is extremely difficult because of how encounters are structured.

Also, part of where Dark Souls gets its, "difficult," reputation. Working out mechanics and dealing with bosses on a first attempt isn't impossible, but does require a significant degree of skill. However, with practice and experience, managing them becomes semi-trivial. In some ways it's analogous to vMA: learn the patterns and it's not that difficult, try to brute force it and it will eat your lunch.

PvP in Dark Souls is utter dog****, because it is saturated with actions that do not permit counterplay in any meaningful way, and the entire goal for random invasions is about engineering situations that the victim cannot respond to. The entire event is designed to be deeply unfair so that if the defending player loses, they're not punished too severely, while if they win, it's a significant accomplishment. But, if you come at the game from a more conventional, "I'm the hero," outlook, it will wreck you for not knowing what's coming next.

Don’t be resistant to change. You might not even use the ultimates that will be affected.

For example my Templar uses Meteor and Lights Champion (resto staff ultimate). If they made a 30% decrease to Templar ultimates I wouldn’t care because I don’t use them. People who do use them will need to adapt but that’s no skin off my back.