PvP: ZoS, why do you hate DKs so much? The ninja nerfs of Murkmire

Xvorg · October 2018

With Murkmire almost ready, according to how the PTS goes on, there have been a lot of discussion related to what notes explicity say, such as the changes to shields or the nerfs to NB tank and healer.

We, DKs, have complaint also about the range reduction in whip, which has been disguised as a buff by ZoS. Not to mention the "HUGE" buff to the poison skills, which are already cheap, a buff nobody asked for, just to keep the stupid concept of "Dragon=Poison" ZoS has built the last 2 years.

But none of them is gonna be treated here. There's a hidden nerf we DKs have failed to notice. A nerf that really put the class behind all other classes in PvP... and all of this has to do with only one change ZoS has done.

Buffs and Debuffs
Minor/Major Evasion: These buffs no longer grant a passive chance to dodge. They now reduce the damage you take from area of effect attacks by 5/25%. All abilities that previously granted Minor or Major Evasion have been converted to this new effect, and the Blade Cloak ability now grants Major Evasion.
This change affects the abilities Blur, Evasion, Deceptive Predator, Gossamer, Grace of Gloom, Adept Rider, Hist Bark, and Spectre’s Eye.

As noted above, we spent time fixing issues with dodge, with the goal of making sure that you only dodge abilities/projectiles when you are actually actively dodging. Passive dodge goes against that, so we removed it from the game.

This change has been one of the less criticized of the PTS changes. There's even people that have praised it, pointing out the game goes "in the right direction". Even I thought it can be a decent change.

But after checking the information, I've realized that is a huge nerf to DKs, because DKs have only 3... yes, 3 single target dmg skills (4 if you count FoO, but that's hardly a dmg skill rather than a dice roll)

Even worst, no DK ultimate in his skillset is a single dmg skill. The 3 of them do AoE DMG

The only skills that are not affected are whip, searing strike and stone giant. The first and the last are only magicka skills, while Venomous claw is the only decent skill sDKs have access. And it's just a Dot, purgeable and easy to heal through.

If you look at the DK skill set you will see that skills like Breath, Volatile, Talons, Inhale and Eruption will do 25% dmg less than they are doing it right now in live. Same with Standard, Magma armor and over all, Leap, which is the DK execute by default.

Sure, this affect all classes, but every class has some way to cope with this. Stamplars are hit in his main spammable, but they still have PotL and javelin. Magplars can use jesus beam, sunfire and purifying light. Wardens have shalks nerfed, but racer is still up. Neither Sorc nor NB can complain much, since their main skills are single target.

And before you start saying that the main spammable of DK has not been nerfed, I remind you that its range has been reduced from 8 to 5 (7 with the new elder dragon skill, so we got a 1 mt range reduction in our main spammable)

What is even more painful is the fact that the class has not got anything to compensate that ninja nerf. In turn, just more nerfs.

So, anything to say about this @ZOS_Wrobel ? Why do you hate my class son much?

Edit: typos

Suryoyo · October 2018

So, other classes will stand their ground like DK's when facing a DK ? But I thought DK's were THE "stand your ground" class ?

Onefrkncrzypope · October 2018

Foo is still in it's legacy skill category. It an aoe. Test it.

If it gets fixed. It will lose 3% damage because of passive to....

kojou · October 2018

The bigger deal to me has always been sustain. I hate that they added cost to whip thinking that I will just do another heavy attack on a class that already has to do more heavy attacks...

LonePirate · October 2018

Xvorg wrote: »

So, anything to say about this @ZOS_Wrobel ? Why do you hate my class son much?

I think he is a devoted fan and follower of that noted psychologist, Jaden Smith.

https://twitter.com/officialjaden/status/320378938033573888?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">

Xvorg · October 2018

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Foo is still in it's legacy skill category. It an aoe. Test it.

If it gets fixed. It will lose 3% damage because of passive to....

=(

Any reason to keep DKs in PvP? I think I'l make my main a cook...

I'm not going to change race to make him a PvE tank. I am not going to pay ZoS for the nerfs they have given to us, because it is what it feels...

radarsu · October 2018

MagDK main spammable is usually lava whip, which deals 90% of damage. StamDK usually uses some weapon skills and half of them are one-target. Where exactly is your problem? Compare that to situation of other classes.

For examle Templars don't have non-AoE ultimate as well and their only one-target skills are dark flare (completely useless channeling skill), backlash (that's a good one), sunfire (good one too) and radiant destruction (useless pseudo-execute skill). And their main spammable jabs is AoE too. DK in comparison to that is in superior position.

Evasion will affect Sorcs and Nightblades least, but they received their shield and sustain nerfs as well. Nerfs are better way to make game good. Not as some people suggest "buff everyone else instead".

Where exactly is your problem? Because for me it seems DK is gonna take up position as top1 PvP class.

Xvorg · October 2018

radarsu wrote: »

MagDK main spammable is usually lava whip, which deals 90% of damage. StamDK usually uses some weapon skills and half of them are one-target. Where exactly is your problem? Compare that to situation of other classes.

Templars don't have non-AoE ultimate as well and their only one-target skills are dark flare (completely useless channeling skill), backlash (that's a good one), sunfire (good one too) and radiant destruction (quite useless execute skill).

Where exactly is your problem? Because for me it seems DK is gonna keep up his position as top1/top2 PvP class.

Problem is that Flame lash got a cost increase and a range reduction BESIDES the nerfs to AoE. A skill that's easily dodged and the only skill in the game that has a cooldown, despite all the conditions to be used again are just there.

Anything else to say?

And please, don't say mDK is top 1 or 2 in PvP, that's a blattant lie.

Chilly-McFreeze · October 2018

Xvorg wrote: »

There's a hidden nerf we DKs have failed to notice. A nerf that really put the class behind all other classes in PvP... and all of this has to do with only one change ZoS has done.

But after checking the information, I've realized that is a huge nerf to DKs, because DKs have only 3... yes, 3 single target dmg skills (4 if you count FoO, but that's hardly a dmg skill rather than a dice roll)

Even worst, no DK ultimate in his skillset is a single dmg skill. The 3 of them do AoE DMG

Neither Sorc nor NB can complain much, since their main skills are single target.

My Stam Sorc feels with you. Even if you think they have any physical damage class skills beside 1 AoE.

Xvorg · October 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

There's a hidden nerf we DKs have failed to notice. A nerf that really put the class behind all other classes in PvP... and all of this has to do with only one change ZoS has done.

But after checking the information, I've realized that is a huge nerf to DKs, because DKs have only 3... yes, 3 single target dmg skills (4 if you count FoO, but that's hardly a dmg skill rather than a dice roll)

Even worst, no DK ultimate in his skillset is a single dmg skill. The 3 of them do AoE DMG

Neither Sorc nor NB can complain much, since their main skills are single target.

My Stam Sorc feels with you. Even if you think they have any physical damage class skills beside 1 AoE.

Stam sorc is another story, sometimes I fail to see how abandoned they are...

LonePirate · October 2018

radarsu wrote: »

Where exactly is your problem? Because for me it seems DK is gonna keep up his position as top1/top2 PvP class.

DKs do not deal enough damage to be in the top 2. A Stamina player of every class can take down a non-tank DK with little effort, especially a Mag DK. Among simply Magicka players, a DK’s effectiveness against the other classes is dependent on the slotted skills. Different classes require different counters and there simply are not enough skill slots for them all.

TrinityBreaker · October 2018

radarsu wrote: »

Where exactly is your problem? Because for me it seems DK is gonna keep up his position as top1 PvP class.

My home boy, that is a giant lie.

Kanar · October 2018

I play HA 2h/bow so I'm not too worried about the aoe damage reduction. Onslaught will still be awesome.

Might go 2h/DW HA bleed build though, and use medium for my 2h/bow.

I'm glad the no-skill combos are getting hit. Every skill should require the pita of targetting in this game. Spin, shalks, dbos, hurricane - popular and easy because you don't even need to target, just run around pushing buttons.

ak_pvp · October 2018

To be honest, I am not too bothered. Shield stacker builds (since its sorta fine for PvP if you add the resistences) will still be more annoying to my low pen low crit DK, heavy stam builds are still super strong so med builds bar NB/templar just get dotted up and whipped anyway.

I have sorta given up on DK though. Its decent, but every patch the meta drifts further away and I am stuck just spamming whip+foss for dear life its boring. Can't talons or snare the fast ***, get basically hard countered by meta defile bleeds, can't stand my ground (warden/temp do it better) and slow (technically one of the faster classes next patch lul) with low escape.

DK now isn't a DK I want to play. Its a boring mush of other classes with its only niche (control) being hard stopped by the majority of the game because ZOS can't create a fair balance system and only nerfs.

templesus · October 2018

“They still have POTL and Javelin” lmao what? I’m supposed to kill people with POTL and javelin spam?

Xvorg · October 2018

Kanar wrote: »

I play HA 2h/bow so I'm not too worried about the aoe damage reduction. Onslaught will still be awesome.

Might go 2h/DW HA bleed build though, and use medium for my 2h/bow.

I'm glad the no-skill combos are getting hit. Every skill should require the pita of targetting in this game. Spin, shalks, dbos, hurricane - popular and easy because you don't even need to target, just run around pushing buttons.

You will do much better with another class

Xvorg · October 2018

templesus wrote: »

“They still have POTL and Javelin” lmao what? I’m supposed to kill people with POTL and javelin spam?

Does jabs proc axe bleed?

Wellsley · October 2018

radarsu wrote: »

Where exactly is your problem? Because for me it seems DK is gonna take up position as top1 PvP class.

templesus · October 2018

Xvorg wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

“They still have POTL and Javelin” lmao what? I’m supposed to kill people with POTL and javelin spam?

Does jabs proc axe bleed?

No. In the future you shouldn’t throw other classes under the bus to further your own. That creates a bad image and just immediately turns people against you who who play those classes.

I supported everything you said up until you said stamplar will be alright because we have POTL and javelin. It’s not even remotely true, and just throws us under the bus.

IZZEFlameLash · October 2018

radarsu wrote: »

Where exactly is your problem? Because for me it seems DK is gonna take up position as top1 PvP class.

It seems to me, you are unable to kill a DK. So you think DK is PvP king or something. Wake up. It's 2018. Not 2014-2015.

Wuuffyy · October 2018

You forget that NOone will be in med armor to begin with...

MashmalloMan · October 2018

Quick/Blade cloak is already available in the game to HA and MED builds. Anyone who wanted the 25% aoe reduction was using it already, everyone was hit in 1 way or another.

Your main spammable is not aoe, templars is, that is a bigger nerf in itself to dmg if your going to act like the 25% aoe dmg reduction is anything new.

As a stam sorc using dawnbreaker, hurricane, steel tornado and blade cloak, I'd say we were hit pretty hard too. Overload lost it's 3rd bar, sustain wasn't touched, instead dark deal was semi-nerfed.

As someone else said, there shouldn't be as big as a reward for aoe skills, it makes more sense that single target does more dmg than abilities that are fire and forget with zero targeting involved.

In another forum, a class rep(sorry forgot your name) found the 25% posion skill reduction is actually pretty useful. Venomous claw is actually a great substitute for a spammable as it cost's next to nothing, single target with 7m range, the first tick of the dot hits after .5 seconds meaning it does the same dmg as other spammables for next to no cost and saves you a skill slot. For pve it works pretty well, for pvp, maybe having 1 free skill slot and using that as a spammable would be pretty advantageous.

There's obviously more work to be done for DK, but really.. you're complaining about a nerf to the 8m range on whip, 7m is more than enough for single target melee skills. They are standardizing range so it makes sense. The range feels absolutely ridiculous where as it doesn't even connect with the target, it just whips/swipes the air at 7m.

Not every class has "some way to cope with this" and it's not as detrimental as everyone makes it out to be, the bigger concern is why HA can use the MED armor specific buffs available to it without any loss on live and pts.. What do I do as a stam sorc when the only class ability and ultimate I have is reduced by 25% dmg. (Nothing, just an example, you adapt.)

HA can use quick cloak major evasion + aoe dot + major expedition and FM for better snare removal then Shuffle.

ezio45 · October 2018

Hahaha you think they hate you.....

sincerely sorc

Onefrkncrzypope · October 2018

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Quick/Blade cloak is already available in the game to HA and MED builds. Anyone who wanted the 25% aoe reduction was using it already, everyone was hit in 1 way or another.

Your main spammable is not aoe, templars is, that is a bigger nerf in itself to dmg if your going to act like the 25% aoe dmg reduction is anything new.

As a stam sorc using dawnbreaker, hurricane, steel tornado and blade cloak, I'd say we were hit pretty hard too. Overload lost it's 3rd bar, sustain wasn't touched, instead dark deal was semi-nerfed.

As someone else said, there shouldn't be as big as a reward for aoe skills, it makes more sense that single target does more dmg than abilities that are fire and forget with zero targeting involved.

In another forum, a class rep(sorry forgot your name) found the 25% posion skill reduction is actually pretty useful. Venomous claw is actually a great substitute for a spammable as it cost's next to nothing, single target with 7m range, the first tick of the dot hits after .5 seconds meaning it does the same dmg as other spammables for next to no cost and saves you a skill slot. For pve it works pretty well, for pvp, maybe having 1 free skill slot and using that as a spammable would be pretty advantageous.

There's obviously more work to be done for DK, but really.. you're complaining about a nerf to the 8m range on whip, 7m is more than enough for single target melee skills. They are standardizing range so it makes sense. The range feels absolutely ridiculous where as it doesn't even connect with the target, it just whips/swipes the air at 7m.

Not every class has "some way to cope with this" and it's not as detrimental as everyone makes it out to be, the bigger concern is why HA can use the MED armor specific buffs available to it without any loss on live and pts.. What do I do as a stam sorc when the only class ability and ultimate I have is reduced by 25% dmg. (Nothing, just an example, you adapt.)

HA can use quick cloak major evasion + aoe dot + major expedition and FM for better snare removal then Shuffle.

The new passive is negible at best. Look there are some classes that are pretty ignored. Dk really only get tank nerfs and mdk PvP nerfs. Templar is basically nerf bol then idk nerf bol. Stam Sorc really only need what hurricane nerf to fall off the wagon.

There was a major focus on dk in this thread and it seems that there is a lack of experience on other classes. The new change to shuffle and blade cloak will be fotm because people are now aware so it will suck. Let's stay together my two skill Stam class bro. It sucks because our ulti is nerf, ur ulti is nerfed. Our aoe is laughable and now yours(which was originally ours) is poop to. This patch am I right.

ak_pvp · October 2018

ezio45 wrote: »

Hahaha you think they hate you.....

sincerely sorc

You have undone most of your nerfs this patch. Yeah, shields are a bit smaller for the builds who built really high. But now they can get really tanky with resists. You are just at the mercy of bleeds like the rest of us.
Damage on a sorc is still terrible and only kills noobs though.

Chilly-McFreeze · October 2018

Xvorg wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

There's a hidden nerf we DKs have failed to notice. A nerf that really put the class behind all other classes in PvP... and all of this has to do with only one change ZoS has done.

But after checking the information, I've realized that is a huge nerf to DKs, because DKs have only 3... yes, 3 single target dmg skills (4 if you count FoO, but that's hardly a dmg skill rather than a dice roll)

Even worst, no DK ultimate in his skillset is a single dmg skill. The 3 of them do AoE DMG

Neither Sorc nor NB can complain much, since their main skills are single target.

My Stam Sorc feels with you. Even if you think they have any physical damage class skills beside 1 AoE.

Stam sorc is another story, sometimes I fail to see how abandoned they are...

Good to hear. But what I find really intriguing in this patch is that the class that has free access to major evasion without being bound to a specific weapon, armor weight or set is also the class that has almost all class dmg skills as single target. Guess that's just a coincidence.

Marcusito · October 2018

My overall thought is the change to Evasion is a good thing though I prefer active counters like block and dodge roll over a % chance to dodge. I’ve been away for 2 years and DK seems to be right where it left off. Seems they are pushed to be the DOT class rather than burst with no execute, flame and poison is cool but I’d like to see some bleed damage added to some skill lines.

Xvorg · October 2018

templesus wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

“They still have POTL and Javelin” lmao what? I’m supposed to kill people with POTL and javelin spam?

Does jabs proc axe bleed?

No. In the future you shouldn’t throw other classes under the bus to further your own. That creates a bad image and just immediately turns people against you who who play those classes.

I supported everything you said up until you said stamplar will be alright because we have POTL and javelin. It’s not even remotely true, and just throws us under the bus.

Last time I tried mi stamplar I was pretty sure jabs proc twin blunt and blade bleed. Maybe the addon was wrong, who knows.

And I don't need advises on how to talk about the classes. You gut a Stun with javelin, which was something templar has needed this last 2 years. Yes, the templar main spammable is hurt, but a small nerf to it cannot be compared to 6 different skills on one class (ot of 10) that now are borderline useless. To give you an example abou how bad it is, just I have to mention inhale, which is already a very expensive skill, which has a burst delay and a heal based on how much dmg you caused. Now that AoE got not only a dmg nerf, but a heal nerf in a class that this patch has only seen nerfs and some minor buffs.

Sure, sweeps got a similar nerf, but you still have the burning light proc for free on 1 out of 4 attacks. As a DK, what do we have. Oh, yes, extra dmg on poisoned and burning status, a very negligible dmg in PvP.

You know what ZoS did to mDK main spammable? 4 consecutive nerfs in the last 3 patches. 4 nerfs on a skill that requires you to stun an enemy to get advantage of a proc and that is telegraphed from the other side of Tamriel. No other spammable has received that amout of nerfs in that timespan.

So when I say this is bad, it is because it is bad so, what's the point on having a class that cannot be played in PvP, that receives nerf after nerf after nerf without any decent explanation? I'm tired of learning to play again my main each patch. The worst part of this is that, when I look into stamDK, the view is even worst, because if there's a class *** in this game it is stamDK.

It would be much easier if ZoS delete the class and shares skills and passives among the other 4 classes, so anyone can tank in PvE. It is pointless to have a DK main in PvP if you know, before hand, that the class will give you ZERO advantage in almost all areas.

Kanar · October 2018

Xvorg wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

I play HA 2h/bow so I'm not too worried about the aoe damage reduction. Onslaught will still be awesome.

Might go 2h/DW HA bleed build though, and use medium for my 2h/bow.

I'm glad the no-skill combos are getting hit. Every skill should require the pita of targetting in this game. Spin, shalks, dbos, hurricane - popular and easy because you don't even need to target, just run around pushing buttons.

You will do much better with another class

I know but my main is stamDK and so I just try to do what I can.

Last time I tried mi stamplar I was pretty sure jabs proc twin blunt and blade bleed. Maybe the addon was wrong, who knows.

I haven't tested it, but I'm sure it does. Just like initial hit from noxious and venom claw can proc it (I just tested it last night on pts). Jabs is neither a dot nor channel, it's consecutive direct-damage hits and so it probably has a very high chance to proc, just like it reliably procs ravager.

Olupajmibanan · October 2018

Only initial hit of Fiery Breath will get reduced by Major Evasion. Subsequent dot (which is 90% of the damage anyways) is not affected. The same is true for Burning Talons and Volatile Armor.

Eruption is rarely used and Deep Breath is very situational (mostly useless in BGs).

I do think that wardens and stamsorcs will suffer far more from Major Evasion change than DKs. Looking at other changes and nerfs, I think I can live with reduced Leap dmg (that's the only DK skill where the new Major Evasion matters).

DeadlyRecluse · October 2018

TBH I'd argue that the evasion change "nerfs" templars significantly more than DKs.

Having your main spammable (that's often used in a single target context) be hit by the reduction is a pretty big deal.

Xvorg wrote: »

Even worst, no DK ultimate in his skillset is a single dmg skill. The 3 of them do AoE DMG

The really isn't unique.
Templar class ults are...AOE, AOE, and healing.
Warden ults are....AOE, 1/3 AOE (bear is weird), and healing
Sorc ults are....AOE+single target (atro landing+followup attacks), AOE+Single target (overload--though I don't know anyone who is excited about the new single target overload), and AOE (negate)

Honestly, I think NBs are the real winners from the evasion change, because they:
a). have an easy in-class source of it
b). Have the clearest single target damage ult (incap/soul harvest), single target spammables (though force pulse is available to all, and all stam classes can get a single target option, obviously) and single target burst mechanic (spectral bow).